39 replies to this topic

[medievil]

Lets stop going offtopic there guys, read the last posts and continue here.

In the nsi thread i ment

[jaiho]

Stress. anxiety. Or trauma.

If you try to analyse the last time you felt emotions and pleasure naturally, try to picture as you gradually noticed your moods dropping, and your numbness increasing.

Sleep patterns? Relationship issues? Problems in the family? Work stress?

This can all trigger it, in my opinion.

 

It's also more susceptible genetically. If you have a family history of depression, you trigger a depression episode even when you feel like you weren't under much stress, really.

 

That's the case for me, i was getting stress, but it didnt feel that bad, a relationship breakdown, my sleep patterns were nuts, and i continued at the same job, which i thought was easy and stress free, but the disassociation has tricked me into thinking it isn't.

 

When i should be feeling strong emotions, the numbness increases in intensity, and i get IBS symptoms.

 

I don't believe in Anhedonia being isolated from depression. I believe Anhedonia IS depression. Depression isn't sadness, but it can make you sad.

[jaiho]

 

Ugh i quickly looked and stress induces alot of changes in the brain, like literally not just hipocampal damage which most think, ill put what i can find togheter to help ya, not just that i love to learn about subjects like this and learning improves the brain making it easier to learn more, so doing all this research help me.

 

The brain can store more then 4 billion books, and i allways wanted to learn as much as possible about all sort of subjects, its not just ocd its because i really enjoy learning about all this, thats my hobby haha.

 

anyway i cant get people to post in my depression topic to keep this label ontopic while id make a perfect moderator. jk offcourse

 

I want to discuss nsi again, after i did some research i have some questions ive been pondering about the drug

 

I never masturbate anymore except maybe rarely, mostly because my sexual reward is fucked, benzo withdrawal reverses it tough, my girlfriend didnt understand why i wanted to watch porn when feeling horrible because of withdrawal lol, but some effects are only temporary such as anhedonia relief with phenibut during withdrawal.

 

that said i wonna try to get off benzos but cant untill i can get dex prescribed as rc stims cause too much anxiety.

 

 

Its amazing how similar you experience Anhedonia as me.

Masturbation also makes me feel awful. (Increase prolactin, blunts dopamine) 

Since our baseline is lower than non Anhedonic people, an activity as normal as orgasm can make us feel even worse, when Prolactin is simply a mechanism to protect the dopamine system, for us it causes an out of balance downregulation of Dopamine.

 

I also experience Anhedonia relief on Phenibut withdrawal. I was quite amazed how powerful that was. It makes me want to try Phenibut daily, but the idea of getting dependent on GABA drugs isnt desirable.

 

I still think we would benefit from a potent Anti depressant cocktail. SSRI + TCA, or Parnate + Stimulant.

[medievil]

Would you say that most ppl that dont think they can find a way to help their anhedonia if its as bad as yours commit suicide? maybe theres more suicide in depression or whatever, i want to know how bad it really is for you? i can only endure it by trying to sleep or lay in bed wathing tv as trying to sleep for too long gives me pains all over my body, id just be amazed if anyone can relate to it as most think i just suffer from some kind of boredom, they dont realise what i go trough, some days its better tough.

 

I get anhedonia relief in benzo withdrawal when the worst is over and i take phenibut, not on phenibut withdrawal, so if i know whereever benzos increase dopamine during withrawal and phenibut perhaps augments it, i could maybe find the exact cause, what brainarea is involved, amp increases da everywhere. increasing da in the pfc is of no benefit for my anhedonia at all, eg with fluoxetine, low dose aps, nris... but this doesnt make me feel normal like stims.

 

Do you feel like some drugs makes you feel completely normal, like you suffer from a imbalance that gets taken away, or do you just get symption improvement? when i was younger i was addicted to ghb, while it made me high it didnt make me feel normal like stims.

 

I really want parnate but united pharmacys stopped selling it, its the maoi recommened for anhedonia, nardil is the golden bullet for social anxiety, also i would take mdai, its a selective serotonin releaser, much more effective then srris which blunt emotions and can cause anhedonia by inhibiting phasic sero release, mdai would do the opposite.

 

I also allways beleived that pramipexole could help me as its da not the ne effect of stims that works, ive tried a selective da reuptake inhibitor thats devoid of ne effects

[jaiho]

Yep, some people are so numb, and thats why they cut themselves. they need to feel something, some kind of pain to feel alive again. My sister went through this. 

Mine is bad, but not incredibly disabling as hers was. I can still work, but i can't form any emotional connection with people. Thats my biggest frustration, not being able to hold a relationship because i dont care about friendships/love, because i can't feel them.

 

I've tried a shitload of drugs for this over the years.

 

The ones thats showed me normality, was the afterglow of Psilocybin mushrooms.

Prozac, but only for a small single day window on starting treatment.

NSI-189 + Moclobemide - Pretty much destroyed my Anhedonia for about 6 months. Doesn't seem to be effective anymore.

SSRI + Tricyclic (For me, Prozac + Nortriptyline) This is the most promising combo i tried. When i added 20mg Prozac to 25mg of Nortriptyline, after a week, the lights came on, felt like my brain was firing on all cylinders suddenly. I was walking along the beach and completely amazed i was actually doing that, smelling the salt in the air.

SSRIs are useless on their own. Many Psychiatrists say that Tricyclic augmentation is required to make SSRIs effective. I find them an awesome combo, since it also negates the sexual side effects of SSRIs, and the fatigue.

Stupidly, i stopped the combo because i wanted to use psychedelics (dumb) and here i am.

I thought i'd try NSI-189 once more, quit Cannabis, and if its not good im back onto SSRI + TCA again.

 

I dont think stimulants are a sustainable solution for this condition, imo, even with memantine. we need to get the brain firing up again, and forget about receptors and our own personal interpretations. Try SSRI + TCA and i bet you'll get a strong response for your Anhedonia.

[medievil]

I cant do anything else then lie in bed to endure the torture with anhedonia, its way worse i cant work feeling that way.

 

Ive tried a tricyclic with prozac for a while but i forgot which one it was, that said nothing like that would work for my anhedonia as my complete reward system is broken, i cant feel reward of any drug unless i take amphetamine or other stims, the only things i beleive could put me into complete remission too are pramipexole, ropinirole or most of all rotigotine with also strongly activates D1, or parnate which also increases dopamine,

 

You dont beleive this but i know i have a dysfunction with the da system, i can still get high on stimulants for example with aps that block d2 and d3, but they remove the anti social anxiety effect of stims, also aps that act om d1 block the anti anhedonic effect for a big part, while they still work for social anxiety.

 

Most of the problems stims help with ive had my whole life, including them making me feel normal, and activating other drugs like opiates, alcohol, etc, without stims drinking alcohol is torture, taking opiates doesnt do anything, psychedelics induce horrible brain torture and weed makes me feel like complete shit.

 

I dont beleive that one person has differened causes for certain problems, for me its dopamine, which is actually proven in science as i have predromal shizophrenia and the negatives are supposed to be impossible to treat, atleast with the current meds, except amphetamine which removes the anhedonia, shire trials it with succes for shizophrenia.

It doesnt cover my issues up, eg blocking d2 removes the sa effects while i can still get high, it actually acts at the core issue in some negatives of shizo which is hypoactive phasic dopamine.

 

I used to post alot on social anxiety fora, before my time everyone was trying aps and other stuff with barely any succes, then i made the use of amphetamine popular with memantine with a extremely high succes rate, one member even gave me money for my help lol, basicly ppl where able to completely remove their sa as opposed to live with it being only improved, this only works for the avpd type besides that dont get anxiety relief from alcohol or benzos like me.

 

Getting the brain firing up again is a better way for you perhaps as you didnt live with symptions all your life, you triggered your issues because of stress so you had a normal neurochemistry before. That said countless of anecdotes use the combo of stims and memantine succesfull, i dont really need memantine for tolerance as i never noticed tolerance to the therapeutic effects of stims.

 

your anhedonia seems to respond to things that increase da in that area

 

I never noticed any gradual numbness, i triggered anhedonia overnight which happeneds if you trigger shizophrenia whit something, it was a test cycle in my case.

 

so if prozac and the tca still worked when you quit them i would have chosen to try that first, the bad news is that alot of ppl that respond to something stop it and then take it again dont respond anymore, i hope thats not the case for you, also why not combine them with nsi? it kinda fixes the brain trough neurogenesis and is allways a good idea to take, it should synergise with your other antidepressants.

 

either way ive tried alot of stuff to be sure stims only help me, besides that i dont want my anhedonia gone while i feel abnornal like something is wrong with me like my childhood or whenever i take stims, i wonna feel like a normal human being which they make me feel like

[jaiho]

I also research treatments for negative symptoms of Schizo because that includes apathy and Anhedonia.

Some negative schizos found remission from Anhedonia with the SSRI + TCA combo. I couldnt find the post though.

 

The thing with the combos, its like throwing darts and hoping you hit the zone in which your get a response. Its possible the SSRI or TCA you tried wasn't compatible.. could you try Zoloft & Nortiprtyline? Dr Gillman suggests that first. He's pro at treating this shit.

 

Psychdelics have now become depressing and clouded but before they were magical, same with marijuana. When i smoke weed on SSRI & TCA combo, its magic.

It's like our brains are completely suppressed from many stimulus, including drugs. It shows since stims do help, they can dump enough dopamine/NE/serotonin to get you out, but only temporarily, with rapid tolerance. I don't really want to touch stims since i know SSRI & TCA is powerful, i dont want to touch APs either since they can cause frontal lobe apathy and they have massive sedation.

Nortriptyline is the best Tricyclic, its cheap, easy to get, and it doesnt cause massive sedation. It pushes NE just enough to counteract the anti histamine, and when you add 5ht2a antagonism, and NRIs to SSRIs, the synergy effect is powerful, and counteracts the side effects of both.

They do suck to start on though, tiredness and mental retardation. that fades quickly. it's true that drugs become less effective if you stop them, thats why im kicking myself for stopping. I dont think NSI-189 is useful for me now because of that, but SSRI + TCA, i can just increase dose or try a different SSRI if it stops working.

 

I still think you can fix your dopamine dysfunction using this combo, even though it doesnt have a dopamine reuptake inhibitor in it. Because for me, it definitely feels entirely dopamine based, but i believe its just a deep depression that a potent combo can really smash it.

Edited by jaiho, 29 February 2016 - 01:36 PM.

[medievil]

I know some ppl with negatives found succes with other treatments, but i beleive if they respond to antidepressants they have depression induced anhedonia and not just anhedonia.

 

I prefer not to take serotonin reuptake inhibitors as they inhibit phasic release, releasing agents are much better and they work for the time perception issues i have because of shizo,a day for my flies by extremely fast, sero releasers normalise it again like before i triggered shizo and i enjoy movies on them which i dont really do anymore, i do like fluvoxamine as it fixes my premature ejaculation togheter with stimulants, no other ssri works for it, only fluvox with stims, without them i cant have sex.

 

I never noticed any tolerance to stims at all to their therapeutic effects so thats not a issue for me.

 

How do your issues feel dopamine based? you dont have the experience of something making you feel normal, so you  wont understand where im coming from.

 

I will def try your suggestions tough as i like to experiment with differened meds, but id still take stims, i cant stop them to to wait for a response as the mental torture is too bad, unless you know ways to put me to sleep all day, that would be excellent, i had cfs syndrome for a whille due to test and it was the only time i wasnt terrified of hacing no stims as i could just sleep trought it.

 

That said i dont think recommending someone to stop whats working for them and then try other shit is very good advice, as you know yourself stopping something that works may render it permanently ineffective, and treatment resistance is a MAJOR issue making thiseven worse advice, once you find something that works stick with it as with the remission rates of most stuff and individual respondes its pretty much impossible to find something else that works imo. Also im prettty much side effect free.

 

But anhedonia comes in many forms, for example i still cant enjoy video games, so i need to try more things for anhedonia, also i miss the ppl interactive effect, like how ppl can stress you out or make you feel diffferened emotions when your around them, or the 3d effect i had with 5 meo dalt, i cant explain all this properly.

 

Anyway, what about my ADHD which doesnt respond to nris and my premature ejaculation which only responds to fluvoxamine with stims? im not planning to live sex free.

[jaiho]

Because phenibut, mushrooms (via 5ht2a agonism) give me pleasure, for a short time. My symptoms are exactly the same as yours. No emotions, tiredness, no pleasure from things and alcohol/weed.

 

With stims, they dont seem susceptible to drug resistance. in fact theres a way to lower tolerance via lower dosing then suddenly increasing it again, this method is also used with Parnate to reset response.

 

You'd probably like Parnate with your stims. Parnate is greatly enhanced by stims since it has mao-b inhibition. 

 

I dont feel normal unless im on a potent anti depressant. I certainly feel it when my brain lights up and colors return to daily life, and feelings. SSRI + TCA did that. And that's the reward center becoming active again.

 

The guys on the negative schizo forums actually used fluvoxamine with Nortriptyline.

Edited by jaiho, 29 February 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[medievil]

i cant say i have no emotions, i do, i just have a complete lack of reward, but my emotions are deff not like how they should be.

 

Ive read that lowering dose technique, but i dont do that and nearly everyone gets tolerant to the therapeutic effects of stims for sa, depression etc, just read the anecdotes online.

 

I cant describe amphetamine turning on a light, ir more makes me feel normal, sometimes i can be depressed on stims too, but thats supposed to happen everyone feels depressed on stims at times.

 

Why do you want me to use a differened treatment so bad when i found what works lol? i think for most ppl finding a cure is extremely diff and when they do find something that works id applaud them instead of trying to get them to take what i think is better or works for me which is kinda what your doing.

 

Well parnate could solve my financial issues too by lowering the stim dose i need, im definatly gonna try diff things as thats just what i do, im curieus how other things work for me, as i dont know how much remission i can achieve, experimenting will tell that, ppl here think im allways looking for a cure or something, i got one i just want to see how much better things cna get.

 

Id love to enjoy videogames again etc, do you have issues with that when your anhedonic? what does your anhedonia consist off? it can be more then not enjoying things, like me it being torture due to a total lack of brain reward which is worse then not enjoying things, hard to explain all this.

[medievil]

Trivastal in the past helped my anhedonia, thats a good med, but it never made me feel normal but could be a good adjunct. Right now im mostly intersted in nortryptiline, parnate, pramipexole and trivastal as potential augmentation strategys, i do apreciate your suggestions and i will definatly look into them.

[gamesguru]

look up depression, with mitochondrial dysfunction and endoplasmic stress. some lead there with cytokines, inflammatory and/or coupling factors... some herbal or natural leads i might hope.

 

 

[medievil]

Ive been doing that for ages, i dont understand your post, you want herbal treatments for mitochondrial dysfunction in depression? 

[jaiho]

If you were cured you wouldn't be posting here, I know I wouldn't be, though very intermittently

[medievil]

Why wouldnt i? also im still not cured, i cured alot of aspects i suffer from but i still cant enjoy videogames etc?

 

Also id allways like to experiment with diff medications to see how they modulate me, why wouldnt you post here anymore arent you interested in trying out dff meds to see how they affect you? the effects can allways be interesting, or just for cognitive enhancement and so forth, id allways like to see how parnate would effect me even if i didnt have any of my related issues anymore at all,, bltc, better life trough chemicals, you know that side? thats what im all about.

[jaiho]

I think dabbling in too many drugs, swapping cocktails has made me worse over the long run. Always wanting to try that new med to see if its better.. i think that's not the way to go, looking back.

[medievil]

Well, my experience proofs you wrong, ive only gotten better, it hasnt been consistent over the years but the last 2 years have been great.

 

How would adding a tca with a ssri be too much experimentation? I dont swap my main regime i just try adding things to give that a good trial, im not allways wanting to try something new to see its better or i would have followed your advice, im looking in augmentation strategys to see wheter they improve me more and i can fully reverse shizo experience life like i used to.

[medievil]

I did it once, i took a combo of time released seroquel, with valproic acid, verapamil, 5 meo dalt, ethylphenidate, phenibut, clonazepam and a low dose of a cannabinoid, but before that i took tramadol with other stuff, i got addicted to tramadol and during withdrawal i tried codeine and amazingly that on its own worked for my anhedonia and made me experience a new sort of reward togheter with my other stuff, like the world was 3d, i got emotions from ppl interacting with me and other things which i didnt have for years, it blew me away, i ran out of the meds before i ran out of the rewarding ones and it still worked, i was in complete remission, wathing tv was like how it used to be, not like staring at a blank screen, all my reward deficits where reversed, the doses i used where minimal so for once i wasnt taking too much ethyl or so, then i ran out of everything except codeine which kept working for my anhedonia, on codeine i could enjoy certain tv shows like i couldnt anymore, well jeremy kyle in this case, i cant enjoy any funny programs atm, movies etc as i dont get the right reward.

 

Anyway i took codeine for a week which kept working but then when i had ethyl again it suddenly stopped working, i suspect it could have been immume system supression or something like that if a pathology underlies my issues.

 

Codeine never worked for me untill i decided to try clear complexion again, i supplement for your skin i took before the codeine and stuff worked and after 2 years i could feel codein again but while it enhances reward it doesnt make reward phasic, which i want as reward by amp is only tonic, also im immume to codeine addiction, mayne i need to take tramadol to get addicted then withdrawal a=which maybe jumpstart the opiate receptors for codeine to work i have no clue.

 

I feel alllright now but whats the harm in trying to get full remission? as long you dont completely stop taking stuff and look for the next best thing you think i do, trying augmentation strategiies is what i do.

 

You suggested it yourself, i bet you like parnate with stims, is that not further experimentation with a augmenting strategy?

 

It seems like your goal is complete remission yourself, lets say nsi only helps for 50% would you not try the tca combo which you said make you feel completely normal?

Edited by medievil, 01 March 2016 - 04:44 AM.

[jaiho]

I mean, that combo you just said isn't a sustainable cocktail, especially the GABA drugs and 5meo, codeine.

Seroquel is said to reverse Anhedonia, and also with an SSRI, but im not a fan of seroquel's sedative qualities.

 

What im saying is, you should get on a potent anti depressant cocktail and avoid these isolated drugs, using expertise of someone like Dr Gillman. He understands Anhedonia very well, unlike other pdocs (he wrote to the HAM-D scale inventor about the misunderstanding of depression)

 

Look at the studies. Remission is given with high dose Parnate, if no response alone, stimulants boost it.

But Gillman suggests SSRI + TCA first, as then you don't have to deal with the diet.

The only downside to this, is you can no longer take alot of drugs. But to get remission for Anhedonia, thats a small price to pay. I only seeked out illegal drugs because of Anhedonia.

 

[medievil]

That combo is in facf substunial with the right drugs to prevent tolerance,but after 8 years i never noticed tolerance to phenibut or stimulants without my own anti tolerance intervention so what exactly do you mean with not substanable as that disproves it.Seroquel said to reverse anhedonia? lol where did you read that, aps cause major anhedonia, ssris do that too.

Also treshold doses of psychedelics are well known to never cause tolerance and work sunstainable,

 

The effects of maois isnt sustainable, ppl report tolerance to nardil all the time having to lower the dose and increase it in some situations, i dont want anything that doesnt give long term consistent results.

 

I dont think that doc understands isolated anhedonia only seen in shizophrenia, but rather anhedonia as a depression side effects witch antidepressants dont resolve, i also try to avoid dirty drugs that to many things in contrast to drugs with a selective mechanism of action.

 

SSRIS and tca dont work for negative symptions in anhedonia, so i strongly beleive that guy only works with anhedonia seen in depression, either way i mostly take very selective drugs which i can completely prevent tolerance too for reliable sustainable effects.

 

Why deal with side effects of those antidepressants when you can be pretty much side effect free.

Edited by medievil, 01 March 2016 - 10:42 AM.

[medievil]

Ive been recommending ppl with social anxiety, atleat the avpd subtype the memantine and amphetamine combo for years and avoiding most psychiatric drugs, except maybe escitalopram which is a clean and selective drug, also synergetic with the before mentioned intervention with great succes and loads of ppl going into long term remisson, also ive written articles writing why amt and mdai make superior antidepressants compared to the pretty much useless ssris, mdai has no research but amt has been shown in studies to be a safe and highly effective antidepressant.

 

Also tcas block 5ht2a which make them allright for melancholic depression while treshold psychedelic doses work better for atypical depression due to 5ht2q activation besides having a extremely high succes rate unlike tcas with arent side effect free such as low daily doses of lsd or other psychedelics.

[gamesguru]

he takes like 200mg of adderall a day, sleeps 1 day a week, and makes 70 posts a day.

ffs cool down man, the fire which burns twice as hot lasts half as long.

[medievil]

I only need 10mg dex 3 times a day but cant get that, that said i can get away with stim abuse, as i completely understand allt the negatives but its not something i want everyday except the weekends, i just cant get a prescription here in the UK.

 

That said you dont reply to what i said just push your opinion instead of debating the arguments we both say. you think your treatment is the only way to gomi beleive its the perfection solution for some, but its all individual, what works for you isnt the solution for everyone man, you should know that.

 

I will allways strongly go against people that arent open to all available treatment options and only push certain interventions that wont work for everyone, tcas and ssris dont work for negatives in shizophrenia, amphetamine doe s,

 

That said i strongly beleive in individual treatments working for some and absolutely want to know more about that guy using those meds for anhedonia as this can be of absolute help for ppl suffering from simular symuptions like you

 

Shire Reports Positive Results From Signal Finding Study of Investigative Use of Vyvanse® (lisdexamfetamine dimesylate) Capsules (CII) as Adjunctive Treatment in Predominant Negative Symptom Schizophrenia

 

 

http://www.prnewswir...-145269355.html

 

The studys by shire dont report its not sustainable

 

Edited by medievil, 01 March 2016 - 04:02 PM.

[medievil]

I wanted to make a thread about Dr Gillman and hes interventions for anhedonia but i cant find, it absolutely warrents a thread as he works on something most docs dont understand and this can be helpfull for alot of people, please post where you found most of hes information? i cant find much with a Dr Gillman anhedoniia search.

[jaiho]

This is his website: http://psychotropica...-and-depression

 

 

Some further explanation about the concept of anhedonia may be useful. Anhedonia, the decreased ability to experience pleasure, is a real physical phenomenon. People with severe illness actually perceive the world as being darker and more foreboding. This is simply a severe and specific example of that general tendency to be less able to perceive pleasant stimuli: this affects sight, sound, taste and all other sensations. People may describe food as tasting like cardboard. In my view it is essential to have an full appreciation of this dimension of the illness in order to diagnose it and to understand it.

Early in my career, I remember one of my wealthy patients in London describing this phenomenon. This fortunate gentleman lunched regularly at the Connaught restaurant, which was then, and I believe is still, magnificent. I recall being taken there for lunch on one occasion, not I hasten to add, by a drug company representative, but by a friend. So when this fellow, in response to questioning about anhedonia, described the magnificent food he had recently been presented with, and told me that it tasted like cardboard, I knew for sure there was something seriously wrong with him, and not with the Connaught!

 

 

He's probably the only pdoc in the world with the most knowledge into treating Anhedonia. He doesn't believe in the HAM-D scale since it does not measure depression without sadness (Anhedonia)

His treatments are SSRI+TCA and MAOIs, or augmented with stims / nortriptyline, are the solutions.

Edited by jaiho, 01 March 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[medievil]

Wow yesterday i added a tca and sudenly benzos make me wobbly, normally they only kill the anxiety of stims, and everything on my stim is so colorfull.. i only take phenibut, clonazepam and, 4 fluoroethylphenidate atm tough, i used that tca before with other antidepressants which can induce anhedonia so maybe thats why i never noticed this effect, i only took my last dosen yesterday i found on the ground as this stim in the doses i take makes me feel like im gonna die of a heart attack any minute even with benzos and only received phen today.i tought it could help, i would have taken everything with  extreme tachycardia and arythemia, with the heartbeat in my neck being entirely differened with my heartbeating muchfaster, and other crap that can cause cardiac arrest, i do know i gotttq stop this lifestyle,  dont even want it, i just want my dex, ecxcept the weekeneds loll.

 

Dunno how else to explain this colorfull effect, by what mechanism can tcas help anhedonia?

 

Oh wait green tea can add color is anti anhedonic at time, but this was more potent perhapsthe combo.

[jaiho]

Here's a story of a guy with neg schizo, the SSRI & TCA combination cured his Anhedonia.

 

So here is my whole story. It has lots of details, hope that doesn't bother some of you people.

First I wanted to say that i'm still feeling ****ing awesome. The for me started like 5 months ago. I was on a trip to Berlin with friends and the last day I felt like a panic attack was coming. Felt really strange, couldn't sit still, was extremely anxious. In my thoughts I saw myself being hospitalized in a mental institution. Losing all my friends, my life, everything. That night I couldn't sleep. I calmed down a bit (still having an heartbeat of 140) but couldn't sleep. They day after we went back to holland. A 12 hour traintrip. It was terrible. Anxious again etc. But I didn't had a panic attack. Back in holland things where kinda okay. There were some strange things though, I was extremely bored, and sometimes the “panic attack” feeling came back which got me really anxious.
Still slept bad, but for the rest it was doable. After 2 weeks back in holland, the hit the fan. I again felt extremely anxious, and called my mother to say that I felt like I was having a panic attack. She ordered me to get home. I jumped on my bike to go to the railway station, and on my way things were strange. Lights looked scary, I could not tell what it was but something was wrong.

When I got home my mom gave me one of her benzo's to calm down, but it didn't really work. I was able to sleep, but only for 2 hours. The days following, I was looking up on the internet for panic attacks. How to prevent them, possible medications, I was completely obsessed. There where some things that just weren't right. If I was going to have a panic attack, it would had happen the first time. But it didn't and I still felt bad. I felt like I was trapped inside of my head, very scary. There were some other things also. The last night in Berlin, when I was lying in my bed, I listened to some music to calm down. Feist, which is dreamy singer-songwriter pop. There was one song I constantly skipped, because I got scared of it. Scared by a song? ***. All of a sudden the pieces fit together. I remembered the time I had (drug induced) psychosis back in 2003. The panic attack feeling I felt that night in Berlin was the same feeling I felt when back in 2003, the anxious feeling like something was going to happen (psychosis in this case) All the time I classified that psychosis as a bad trip, but all of a sudden it maked sense. I went to lookup the symptoms of (prodromal) schizophrenia and shivers went up my spine. This was it. I'm going to develop schizophrenia. I was completely shocked. Later I began to hear voices (and visual hallucinations). They were subtle, but they where there. Then I went to see a pdoc who gave me antidepressants (SSRI) because he taught my negative symptoms were caused by depression. Did nothing, lifted my mood kinda so that's the reason I was still taking these AD's. So to sum it all up, i'm prodromal shizophrenia. Never had paranoia or delusions (maybe a bit), hear some occasional voices and visuals. I think the reason I didn't have psychosis is that I was already was on risperdal 2 mg (ADHD). And the negative symptoms ofcourse, they bother(ed) me the most.

They were:

Blunted affect/no emotion: It took like 2 weeks to develop them. All of a sudden, I couldn't feel the punch of the music anymore. I couldn't laugh at the things I found hilarious before. And when I laughed, it just felt, empty. I remember one time laughing with tears in my eyes but not feeling the emotion behind my laugh. That was strange. Stopped watching comedy movies/shows because I got depressed by the fact that I couldn't really laugh.

Anhedonia: Was bored al day. Stopped doing thing I liked before. Occasionaly (wrong spelling I know) I played on my xbox. Liked it to some extent. Somethings I visited friends, but most of the times it just sucked. Lied in my bed all day till 5 pm to eat, went to bed at 11 pm. Was happy when the day was over.

No enthousiasm: Could not be enthousiastic, spontaneous. I was great at faking it to some extent. I used to be a charismatic person.

Poverty of speech: To some extent, yes. When having a bad day I only talked if someone asked me something. I remember being hyped about testforce/sarcosine beginning to work (which was placebo) I felt so good that I went to a party where my friends where Djing. Couldn't feel the music, drank a lot of alcohol out of frustration that it was just placebo, faked the whole night with being spontaneous (to some extent), ended up in a girls bed, because I (thought) I wanted to have sex, but the anti depressants ****ed it al up. I stayed at her place, couldn't sleep because of my (schizophrenia) insomnia. Went to my parents house in the afternoon and crashed HARD. Didn't talk the whole day.

Poor hygiene: Stopped putting stuff in my hair, sometimes I didn't shower for like 3 days, same goes for brushing my teeth. (when I didn't have to leave the house)

Cognitives: Yep, to some extent. Had to read very slowly if I wanted to remember what I've read. One time it took me like 15 seconds to give answer to the question what 12 minus 7 was. Crazy ! That shocked me.

And the rest is history. I've tried some things. Sarcosine. Glycine. Panax Ginseng. None of them helped. I saw the NRI/SSRI topic very early since I was filtering for the negative symptoms tags. I was impressed by the topic, but wanted to save the heavy things (drugs) for later, first the supplements. I was on nortril (nortriplyne) for 6 days when I started to feel kinda strange, like psychosis was going to happen. I was like “**** it, i'm going do this even if psychosis occurs, since it helped CarlRose tremendously”. The strange feeling faded away. Last Thursday (11th day) I felt something better, it was subtle. The day after (MY 27TH BIRTHDAY!!) I was going to my room in the other city I lived in (130 km away from my parents) to have my birthday party with my roomies and best mates. When I was waited on the train, I mentioned something strange. It felt like I felth the music again. It worked for some tracks and for others it didn't so I gave no attention to it, prob' placebo. When arrived at my house I had the (first) great evening/night since 5 months. I laughed like I never laughed before, and the feeling with the laughing was back. Party stopped at 4 am, i stayed awake for 4 more hours, just to listen to music, with earplugs in. I listened 1 hour to the SAME SONG. Just because I was so hyped up that my negs were gone, I could FEEL the music again, music is the number 1 thing in my life since like I was 6.

I went to bed kinda depressed. What if this feeling is gone tomorrow? Stood up, and the feeling was still there. The anxious feeling kinda stayed for 2 days but now i'm positive. I feel ****ing awesome. My negs are all gone. All of them. Nothing left. Strangely all of my cognitives are gone also! (but they were not that severe as my negs).

I just want to make one thing clear. I'm not bragging about me feeling great just because I feel great. I'm bragging because I wanted to give some of you people hope. Negs are terrible. I experienced it myself. But i'm the living proof that things CAN change. And CarlRose is also, since 3 of his negs (anhedonia, blunted affect and alogia) were completely gone also. That's more than the 30% some trials said. He said “I feel human again”. That's what we all want right? And it can happen to all of us. Just try the NRI/SSRI combo. Start with a SSRI (fluvoxamine (wrong spelled) gives the best results, but I used cipramil/citalopram, 40 mg) for like a month, then start with 50 mg nortrilen/nortriptylen. It took 1,5 week for me to work, it took CarlRose 1 month so don't be anxious when it doesn't work after a week. It you don't feel anything after 2 weeks, go to 100 mg nortrilen. It will help you some kinda way anyway, maybe 100% like me. And if it doesn't work, don't lose hope. If it didn't work for me I would try minocycline. It's been said to have some side affect, but i'm like “**** that”. If your going to take minocycline, talk to your pdoc first, ask what he is thinking. Print some trials of the minocycline and take them with you. Don't lose hope people. I think rg1678 has alot of potential also. I truly believe schizophrenia (or at least the negs) can be cured within a couple of years. DON'T LOSE HOPE!!!! I had lots of suicidal thoughts the last months but i've never considered really doing it. Because I had hope and I couldn't do it to my family who I love.

Nickthird: I'm sorry to hear that the nri/ssri didn't work for you. Maybe a stupid question, but did you ever tried wellbutrin? When I was in my 5th week of cipramil my pdoc said he had something that works for apathy wich he wanted he save for the last. First 2 days I didn't feel anything, but then I couldn't sleep for 3 days (an that wasn't because it was a stimulant, it had something to do with the schizophrenia insomnia, i'm sure). I also felt kinda strange, so I stopped at day 5. I was in the beginning very enthousiastic because i've read a story on the international depression forum from a guy who had like abulic depression. First he had severe clinic/chronic depression but just like you, it snapped all of sudden and all of his emotions were gone. Since you're not schizophrenic
it would be safe for you to try (since it raises dopamine levels) and worth a shot. But I wouldn't be surprised if you allready tried it. 

As for me, I will stay active on this forum. I want to see your guys progress. I can sincerely say that I feel for you people, since i've experienced the same. Things will work out fine eventually. And I hope that mobc1990 have results with this NRI/SSRI thing. Don't give up hope son, never!

I wish you all the ****ing best, may God be with you. (says an atheist, hehe)

[3mp0w3r]

I often wonder if chemicals in the environment are responsible for some of these symptoms. For example, asthma has increased in the population % wise. And they have established that younger generations of males have lower testosterone levels. Chemicals found in plastic containers and pollution in general was proposed as a cause for the low testosterone. I also think our current culture has become nuts. Governments base economic policies on never ending population growth. Then there is the growing disparity between the rich and poor which is also a big topic. In the 1800s, technology was envisioned as a way to have more free time. Now that we have tons of technology, we are also contactable after work hours. Whole different group of stresses that go with that as well. I know personally, my work hours included shift work and lots of overtime. This has had an effect on my hormones, circadian rhythm etc. Adding in a health problem has also increased stress. I got to the point where I kept going but I know I was not achieving my best and that I simply didn't care about success/failure as much. Anyways, there are lots of reasons for depression. Many people are on the edge and all it takes is that extra push.

[medievil]

Here's a story of a guy with neg schizo, the SSRI & TCA combination cured his Anhedonia.

 

So here is my whole story. It has lots of details, hope that doesn't bother some of you people.

First I wanted to say that i'm still feeling ****ing awesome. The for me started like 5 months ago. I was on a trip to Berlin with friends and the last day I felt like a panic attack was coming. Felt really strange, couldn't sit still, was extremely anxious. In my thoughts I saw myself being hospitalized in a mental institution. Losing all my friends, my life, everything. That night I couldn't sleep. I calmed down a bit (still having an heartbeat of 140) but couldn't sleep. They day after we went back to holland. A 12 hour traintrip. It was terrible. Anxious again etc. But I didn't had a panic attack. Back in holland things where kinda okay. There were some strange things though, I was extremely bored, and sometimes the “panic attack” feeling came back which got me really anxious.
Still slept bad, but for the rest it was doable. After 2 weeks back in holland, the hit the fan. I again felt extremely anxious, and called my mother to say that I felt like I was having a panic attack. She ordered me to get home. I jumped on my bike to go to the railway station, and on my way things were strange. Lights looked scary, I could not tell what it was but something was wrong.

When I got home my mom gave me one of her benzo's to calm down, but it didn't really work. I was able to sleep, but only for 2 hours. The days following, I was looking up on the internet for panic attacks. How to prevent them, possible medications, I was completely obsessed. There where some things that just weren't right. If I was going to have a panic attack, it would had happen the first time. But it didn't and I still felt bad. I felt like I was trapped inside of my head, very scary. There were some other things also. The last night in Berlin, when I was lying in my bed, I listened to some music to calm down. Feist, which is dreamy singer-songwriter pop. There was one song I constantly skipped, because I got scared of it. Scared by a song? ***. All of a sudden the pieces fit together. I remembered the time I had (drug induced) psychosis back in 2003. The panic attack feeling I felt that night in Berlin was the same feeling I felt when back in 2003, the anxious feeling like something was going to happen (psychosis in this case) All the time I classified that psychosis as a bad trip, but all of a sudden it maked sense. I went to lookup the symptoms of (prodromal) schizophrenia and shivers went up my spine. This was it. I'm going to develop schizophrenia. I was completely shocked. Later I began to hear voices (and visual hallucinations). They were subtle, but they where there. Then I went to see a pdoc who gave me antidepressants (SSRI) because he taught my negative symptoms were caused by depression. Did nothing, lifted my mood kinda so that's the reason I was still taking these AD's. So to sum it all up, i'm prodromal shizophrenia. Never had paranoia or delusions (maybe a bit), hear some occasional voices and visuals. I think the reason I didn't have psychosis is that I was already was on risperdal 2 mg (ADHD). And the negative symptoms ofcourse, they bother(ed) me the most.

They were:

Blunted affect/no emotion: It took like 2 weeks to develop them. All of a sudden, I couldn't feel the punch of the music anymore. I couldn't laugh at the things I found hilarious before. And when I laughed, it just felt, empty. I remember one time laughing with tears in my eyes but not feeling the emotion behind my laugh. That was strange. Stopped watching comedy movies/shows because I got depressed by the fact that I couldn't really laugh.

Anhedonia: Was bored al day. Stopped doing thing I liked before. Occasionaly (wrong spelling I know) I played on my xbox. Liked it to some extent. Somethings I visited friends, but most of the times it just sucked. Lied in my bed all day till 5 pm to eat, went to bed at 11 pm. Was happy when the day was over.

No enthousiasm: Could not be enthousiastic, spontaneous. I was great at faking it to some extent. I used to be a charismatic person.

Poverty of speech: To some extent, yes. When having a bad day I only talked if someone asked me something. I remember being hyped about testforce/sarcosine beginning to work (which was placebo) I felt so good that I went to a party where my friends where Djing. Couldn't feel the music, drank a lot of alcohol out of frustration that it was just placebo, faked the whole night with being spontaneous (to some extent), ended up in a girls bed, because I (thought) I wanted to have sex, but the anti depressants ****ed it al up. I stayed at her place, couldn't sleep because of my (schizophrenia) insomnia. Went to my parents house in the afternoon and crashed HARD. Didn't talk the whole day.

Poor hygiene: Stopped putting stuff in my hair, sometimes I didn't shower for like 3 days, same goes for brushing my teeth. (when I didn't have to leave the house)

Cognitives: Yep, to some extent. Had to read very slowly if I wanted to remember what I've read. One time it took me like 15 seconds to give answer to the question what 12 minus 7 was. Crazy ! That shocked me.

And the rest is history. I've tried some things. Sarcosine. Glycine. Panax Ginseng. None of them helped. I saw the NRI/SSRI topic very early since I was filtering for the negative symptoms tags. I was impressed by the topic, but wanted to save the heavy things (drugs) for later, first the supplements. I was on nortril (nortriplyne) for 6 days when I started to feel kinda strange, like psychosis was going to happen. I was like “**** it, i'm going do this even if psychosis occurs, since it helped CarlRose tremendously”. The strange feeling faded away. Last Thursday (11th day) I felt something better, it was subtle. The day after (MY 27TH BIRTHDAY!!) I was going to my room in the other city I lived in (130 km away from my parents) to have my birthday party with my roomies and best mates. When I was waited on the train, I mentioned something strange. It felt like I felth the music again. It worked for some tracks and for others it didn't so I gave no attention to it, prob' placebo. When arrived at my house I had the (first) great evening/night since 5 months. I laughed like I never laughed before, and the feeling with the laughing was back. Party stopped at 4 am, i stayed awake for 4 more hours, just to listen to music, with earplugs in. I listened 1 hour to the SAME SONG. Just because I was so hyped up that my negs were gone, I could FEEL the music again, music is the number 1 thing in my life since like I was 6.

I went to bed kinda depressed. What if this feeling is gone tomorrow? Stood up, and the feeling was still there. The anxious feeling kinda stayed for 2 days but now i'm positive. I feel ****ing awesome. My negs are all gone. All of them. Nothing left. Strangely all of my cognitives are gone also! (but they were not that severe as my negs).

I just want to make one thing clear. I'm not bragging about me feeling great just because I feel great. I'm bragging because I wanted to give some of you people hope. Negs are terrible. I experienced it myself. But i'm the living proof that things CAN change. And CarlRose is also, since 3 of his negs (anhedonia, blunted affect and alogia) were completely gone also. That's more than the 30% some trials said. He said “I feel human again”. That's what we all want right? And it can happen to all of us. Just try the NRI/SSRI combo. Start with a SSRI (fluvoxamine (wrong spelled) gives the best results, but I used cipramil/citalopram, 40 mg) for like a month, then start with 50 mg nortrilen/nortriptylen. It took 1,5 week for me to work, it took CarlRose 1 month so don't be anxious when it doesn't work after a week. It you don't feel anything after 2 weeks, go to 100 mg nortrilen. It will help you some kinda way anyway, maybe 100% like me. And if it doesn't work, don't lose hope. If it didn't work for me I would try minocycline. It's been said to have some side affect, but i'm like “**** that”. If your going to take minocycline, talk to your pdoc first, ask what he is thinking. Print some trials of the minocycline and take them with you. Don't lose hope people. I think rg1678 has alot of potential also. I truly believe schizophrenia (or at least the negs) can be cured within a couple of years. DON'T LOSE HOPE!!!! I had lots of suicidal thoughts the last months but i've never considered really doing it. Because I had hope and I couldn't do it to my family who I love.

Nickthird: I'm sorry to hear that the nri/ssri didn't work for you. Maybe a stupid question, but did you ever tried wellbutrin? When I was in my 5th week of cipramil my pdoc said he had something that works for apathy wich he wanted he save for the last. First 2 days I didn't feel anything, but then I couldn't sleep for 3 days (an that wasn't because it was a stimulant, it had something to do with the schizophrenia insomnia, i'm sure). I also felt kinda strange, so I stopped at day 5. I was in the beginning very enthousiastic because i've read a story on the international depression forum from a guy who had like abulic depression. First he had severe clinic/chronic depression but just like you, it snapped all of sudden and all of his emotions were gone. Since you're not schizophrenic
it would be safe for you to try (since it raises dopamine levels) and worth a shot. But I wouldn't be surprised if you allready tried it. 

As for me, I will stay active on this forum. I want to see your guys progress. I can sincerely say that I feel for you people, since i've experienced the same. Things will work out fine eventually. And I hope that mobc1990 have results with this NRI/SSRI thing. Don't give up hope son, never!

I wish you all the ****ing best, may God be with you. (says an atheist, hehe)

Like i tolled you before, response to medications is extremely individual, also most people with shizophrenia have some negatives symptions since childhood, basicle sometimes they cant know what complete remission of anhedonia feels like, i tought amphetamine cured my anhedonia, but then after trying a chemical cocktail for a while which i ran out of meds meds except verapamil and tramadol, ive allways been immume to opiates, this is common in shizophrenia, tramadol worked in a way by making me enjoy everything more which isnt really therapeutic as on amphetamine i could enjoy things, then i ran out and went trough horrible withdrawal for 2 days until i tought otc codeine might work, i first took like 10 tablets and for the first time i enjoyed stuff without stims, then i added my daily ethylphenidate and 5 meo dalt and the effects were incredivble, in a way i never experienced before, for example my girlfriends mum was stressing me out because she kept going on about something to my girlfriend where normally i could sit in the same room and just listen without feeling negative emotions like thatm, i tried to explain that to my girlfriend and she said she allways had that, it was also like suddenly the world was in 3d, its really impossible to explain properly but that really was like how life is normally being experienced, it made total sense, then when i tried adding a low dose of a synethetic cannabinoid it enhanced my reward in another way i never experienced, the ethyl and 5 meo dalt made just 5mg codeine possible to have patience, and work on things that take time, with ethyl alone it caysed too much brainfog and felt drugged up, 5 meo dalt eliminated that.

 

I beleive in shizophrenia theres a complete meltdown of the reward system which you can only reverse by targetting every individual reward system, i also i wish i just suffered from chronic boredom and lack of enjoyment of music friends etc, for me severe is far worse and induced absolutely brain torture that is nearly impossible to endure.

 

Also i never denief tca would work,i absolutely beleive that each working treatment is individual, if with posting this you are trying to stop what works for my negatives and makes me feel completely normal, as treatment resistance is extremely common suggesting ppl to stop what rworks and try something else is very irresponsible advice.

 

I also didnt see the mention of ADHD as a negative symption which stimulants are the preferred treatmentfor

[jaiho]

I have the exact symptoms you have. I have felt that 3D real life feeling before, but only from psychedelics. I don't touch stems because i know I'll chase the normality which it can't sustain.
Only way is to bring the reward centre back to normal, via potent ADs. Anhedonia /deep depression is severe dysfunction of the reward centre, that's why DBS cures Anhedonia, it's planted right in the middle of the reward centre

Edited by jaiho, 08 March 2016 - 08:37 AM.