26 replies to this topic

[brosci]

I'm in my early 30's, trying to decide whether I want to pursue further increases in lean mass and body weight (I have a BMI of ~20, with a decent build and very minimal body fat) via a high protein intake with a hypercaloric intake, or to switch over to a sort of aerobic / endurance regimen with a lower caloric and lower protein intake for cardiovascular health / cognitive benefits / longevity.

 

Is there a certain age when I should think more about limiting IGF1 / MTOR signaling and focus more on AMPK and SIRT signaling?

 

I'm looking at HMB-FA as an interesting candidate for trying to really push my resistance training farther along (along with clean diet, creatine, beta-alanine, whey, etc.)  However, I don't want any research to come down the pipe pointing to potentially harmful effects for my ultimate goals of cardiovascular + cognitive health and longevity.

 

What are your thoughts here?

[YOLF]

Well Ginger (encapsulated raw powder) will help keep T levels up and preserve mass. IGF1 iirc also increases Klotho which is pretty important to keep up as you age, esp. if you want to keep processing protein at higher intake.

 

Not sure what to tell you on what habits to keep. Go with whatever keeps you fit.

[Junk Master]

I think you are too young to see any "real" results from HMB, as in results above and beyond what you would see from a high intensity weight lifting program at least 3 days a week.

 

For whatever the reason HMB is popping back up and a number of studies support it's benefit on older, or trained athletes; but, those of us who have been around the weight lifting game for many years remember when HMB was going to be Bill Phillips next big thing post creatine, upon which he built EAS and sold for $500 million dollars.  Unfortunately, in the real world HMB did very little for young lifters, and next to nothing compared to the anabolic steroids which ALL bodybuilders and fitness models that made marketing hucksters like Bill Phillips his mega-millions  (I would LOVE to have seen his body for life winners drug tested!!).

 

Save your money and spend it on whey protein and plain ol' creatine monohydrate (nothing fancy).  And, oh yeah, lift...lift heavy...with emphasis on eccentric movements at least once a week.

[YOLF]

Those training with HMB had triple the gains in a pretty legit study of athletes. I've taken it (regular HMB) and it's a mood booster too. I noticed some unstudied benefits to my GI health too. Powder tastes horrid though... there's no cutting it... not sure if the FA form is any better.

[brosci]

Those training with HMB had triple the gains in a pretty legit study of athletes. I've taken it (regular HMB) and it's a mood booster too. I noticed some unstudied benefits to my GI health too. Powder tastes horrid though... there's no cutting it... not sure if the FA form is any better.

Here's the study on the FA form:

 

http://suppversity.b...itional-10.html

 

http://suppversity.b...w-its-also.html

 

http://suppversity.b...t-strength.html

 

I'm particularly interested in using this (1g pre / 1g post exercise) while dramatically upping my volume, intensity, and caloric intake with consistent progressive overload at each session.  I hit my sessions pretty hard right now, but I haven't bumped up my calories in a long time and I've somewhat stalled into a balance of energy intake : lean mass / body weight : strength.  I'm seeing this as a potential very small (1-5% boost?) over the top of a period of continually increasingly high levels of effort at the gym.

 

Or... I'm also playing with the idea of just regular aerobic exercise and a low carb/low protein, maybe slightly calorie restricted diet and just keeping my insulin down, igf1 down, mtor down, and inflammation down, while focusing on maintaining a slow heart rate through relatively easy fat-burning exercise to build a nice aerobic base.  This tends to be where the research points for longevity, health, and cognitive function.

 

Perhaps it would make some sense to stock up on muscle now, while it's easier for me to do so in my early 30's as an investment in future insulin sensitivity and lean mass for glucose disposal (then, go the path of the lower protein intake and try to maintain the gains throughout my older years?)

Edited by brosci, 04 May 2016 - 12:26 AM.

[Junk Master]

Yolf,  how many pounds did you put on taking it?  What was the increase in either the number of reps, or your max poundages?

 

Keep in mind, two weeks of creatine monohydrate (dirt cheap) will, in many cases result in a ten pound weight gain and 10-20 pounds increase on a max bench press.

 

As for anabolics, which in many cases are cheaper than HMB, even a mild cycle will result in 10-20 pounds of lean muscle gain and upwards of 20-40 pounds of max bench press gain-- and those are very conservative numbers!

[YOLF]

Creatine is mostly (75%?) water weight though... stop taking it and lose "muscle" weight in days. I've also heard that creatine makes your belly fatter, or can in some ppl. Both seem to protect muscle and have additive benefits, but I try not to have a gut.

[brosci]

Creatine is mostly (75%?) water weight though... stop taking it and lose "muscle" weight in days. I've also heard that creatine makes your belly fatter, or can in some ppl. Both seem to protect muscle and have additive benefits, but I try not to have a gut.

I've taken creatine daily for a few years -- I can see the veins over my lower abdominal muscles, some striations in my chest and shoulders, with defined obliques and serratus muscles... not much of an issue or concern for me.  Zero gut.

 

I usually take creapure, although I wouldn't mind trying a buffered creatine.  I switched it out for Creatine Magnesium chelate for a minute.

[brosci]

Well, I went ahead and invested in some HMB-FA.  Based on some of the available research literature, it seems relatively safe enough for the short term.  Fingers-crossed.

 

The stack is looking like Citrulline Malate + HMB-FA for pre-workout, BCAAS + Electrolytes + Taurine + Glycine + Glutamine intra-workout, then HMB-FA + Creatine + Beta-alanine + Protein post-workout.

[Junk Master]

I'll be fascinated to here your real world results.

 

As for creatine's gain's being "mainly"water, gains from anabolic steroids are mainly water as well.  The thing is more water in you muscles = stronger muscles = ability to lift heavier weight = more adaptive stimulus...you get the idea.

 

Not just that, but creatine itself is one of the most underrated nootropics around.  Check out some of the studies--

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1691485/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1691485/

 

And again is dirt cheap.

 

Use only creatine monohydrate, and don't bother with a "loading" phase.

 

IMO creatine and whey protein are absolutely "no brainers" when in comes to efficacy for price in the supplement.

 

This is from someone who has spent thousands of dollars chasing after every latest and greatest body building supplement for 20 some years.  Though I do have to say, the version of Craze pre-workout drink that was subsequently made illegal was as close to legalized amphetamines as I've ever experienced-- and I've experienced plenty of illegal ones.

 

 

[YOLF]

Well, I went ahead and invested in some HMB-FA.  Based on some of the available research literature, it seems relatively safe enough for the short term.  Fingers-crossed.

 

The stack is looking like Citrulline Malate + HMB-FA for pre-workout, BCAAS + Electrolytes + Taurine + Glycine + Glutamine intra-workout, then HMB-FA + Creatine + Beta-alanine + Protein post-workout.

 

I'd add 3g of D Aspartic Acid in the morning if you want to get stronger and stay more durable for your activities.

[brosci]

 

Well, I went ahead and invested in some HMB-FA.  Based on some of the available research literature, it seems relatively safe enough for the short term.  Fingers-crossed.

 

The stack is looking like Citrulline Malate + HMB-FA for pre-workout, BCAAS + Electrolytes + Taurine + Glycine + Glutamine intra-workout, then HMB-FA + Creatine + Beta-alanine + Protein post-workout.

 

I'd add 3g of D Aspartic Acid in the morning if you want to get stronger and stay more durable for your activities.

 

This was an interesting recent study on D Aspartic Acid:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25844073

 

"The present study demonstrated that a daily dose of six grams of d-aspartic acid decreased levels of total testosterone and free testosterone (D6), without any concurrent change in other hormones measured. Three grams of d-aspartic acid had no significant effect on either testosterone markers"

 

It also increases NMDA, which is an excitotoxin.

 

Decreased testosterone and increased NMDA doesn't sound like much of an ergogenic booster.  I do have some Cordyceps (fruiting bodies), Maca (gelatinized), and Ashwagandha (KSM-66.)

Edited by brosci, 09 May 2016 - 01:46 AM.

[YOLF]

 

 

Well, I went ahead and invested in some HMB-FA.  Based on some of the available research literature, it seems relatively safe enough for the short term.  Fingers-crossed.

 

The stack is looking like Citrulline Malate + HMB-FA for pre-workout, BCAAS + Electrolytes + Taurine + Glycine + Glutamine intra-workout, then HMB-FA + Creatine + Beta-alanine + Protein post-workout.

 

I'd add 3g of D Aspartic Acid in the morning if you want to get stronger and stay more durable for your activities.

 

This was an interesting recent study on D Aspartic Acid:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/25844073

 

"The present study demonstrated that a daily dose of six grams of d-aspartic acid decreased levels of total testosterone and free testosterone (D6), without any concurrent change in other hormones measured. Three grams of d-aspartic acid had no significant effect on either testosterone markers"

 

It also increases NMDA, which is an excitotoxin.

 

Decreased testosterone and increased NMDA doesn't sound like much of an ergogenic booster.  I do have some Cordyceps (fruiting bodies), Maca (gelatinized), and Ashwagandha (KSM-66.)

 

 

So perhaps it works through a signaling pathway to GnRH from muscles? This would mean other cofactors, specifically those raising the levels of the liver enzyme responsible for GnRH production? Then add additional precursors? I'm thinking Taurine's effects on T are via raising this liver enzyme. I love the stuff.

 

Do questions need references or answers?

Edited by YOLF, 09 May 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[YOLF]

I'll be fascinated to here your real world results.

 

As for creatine's gain's being "mainly"water, gains from anabolic steroids are mainly water as well.  The thing is more water in you muscles = stronger muscles = ability to lift heavier weight = more adaptive stimulus...you get the idea.

 

Not just that, but creatine itself is one of the most underrated nootropics around.  Check out some of the studies--

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1691485/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1691485/

 

And again is dirt cheap.

 

Use only creatine monohydrate, and don't bother with a "loading" phase.

 

IMO creatine and whey protein are absolutely "no brainers" when in comes to efficacy for price in the supplement.

 

This is from someone who has spent thousands of dollars chasing after every latest and greatest body building supplement for 20 some years.  Though I do have to say, the version of Craze pre-workout drink that was subsequently made illegal was as close to legalized amphetamines as I've ever experienced-- and I've experienced plenty of illegal ones.

 

I tend to think that focusing too much on increasing growth hormone is a bad strategy. I feel much better, much stronger, and much more durable boosting testosterone, while boosting growth hormone makes me feel good, probably makes me look bigger, but doesn't do so much for keeping old injuries as old injuries. GH can increase fat as well as muscle and means less risk of injury after fasting to maintain optimal BMI. Elevated T just equates to more sustainable physiology and thinness. If I take GH and don't change my habits, I'll get fat faster... if I take T or thyroid hormones and don't change my habits, I'll still lose weight and get fitter.

[brosci]

I tend to think that focusing too much on increasing growth hormone is a bad strategy. I feel much better, much stronger, and much more durable boosting testosterone, while boosting growth hormone makes me feel good, probably makes me look bigger, but doesn't do so much for keeping old injuries as old injuries. GH can increase fat as well as muscle and means less risk of injury after fasting to maintain optimal BMI. Elevated T just equates to more sustainable physiology and thinness. If I take GH and don't change my habits, I'll get fat faster... if I take T or thyroid hormones and don't change my habits, I'll still lose weight and get fitter.

This was an interesting article which looked into HMB + Taurine + Arginine (which will be somewhat similar to the stack I'm using.)

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19346975

 

"[Muscle Armor] supplementation [containing beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate (HMB)] promoted increases in resting and exercise-induced testosterone and resting growth hormone concentrations. In addition, MA reduced preexercise cortisol concentrations."

 

I've never had any issues with body fat, where I'm not too concerned with that potential aspect.  I tend to just eat big meals around hunger, mostly vegetables, and it keeps me in decent enough shape.

[YOLF]

 

In untrained populations, supplementation of HMB (3g), Creatine (20g for 7 days, 10g for rest of study), or its combination for three weeks noted that creatine was thrice as effective as HMB in increasing lean mass beyond placebo, and that the benefits of creatine and HMB were additive when combined.[63]

One study has been conducted pairing HMB with Creatine in trained rugby athletes using 3g HMB with 6g Creatine Monohydrate for 6 weeks, but the results of the combination group failed to be significantly different than either 3g HMB or the control group.[64] These null results were observed in highly trained athletes previously by the same research group with half the dose of creatine over the same time period of 6 weeks.

[65]

 

 

 

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in testosterone after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in cortisol after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in growth hormone after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

 

Lots of disagreements going on...

[brosci]

 

 

In untrained populations, supplementation of HMB (3g), Creatine (20g for 7 days, 10g for rest of study), or its combination for three weeks noted that creatine was thrice as effective as HMB in increasing lean mass beyond placebo, and that the benefits of creatine and HMB were additive when combined.[63]

One study has been conducted pairing HMB with Creatine in trained rugby athletes using 3g HMB with 6g Creatine Monohydrate for 6 weeks, but the results of the combination group failed to be significantly different than either 3g HMB or the control group.[64] These null results were observed in highly trained athletes previously by the same research group with half the dose of creatine over the same time period of 6 weeks.

[65]

 

 

 

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in testosterone after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in cortisol after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

A study conducted in elite volleyball athletes (youth) failed to find differences in growth hormone after supplementation of 3g HMB over a 7 week period in conjunction with training.[43]

 

Lots of disagreements going on...

 

I have heard the effectiveness largely depends on the training stimulus, particularly around functional overreaching.  I usually train fasted (around 16-20hrs into the fast.)  Perhaps there's a difference between giving this supplement to young volleyball players at energy balance around their training (which is what... standing around and hitting a lightweight ball full of air?) vs lifting increasingly heavier weights fasted with full body compound exercise through the pain barrier to the point of muscle failure and overtraining with a hypercaloric diet.

 

What tends to concern me more than the supplement being potentially no more beneficial than creatine or beta-alanine (both of which I'm already supplementing), is there is some literature that points to it being a causative in factor in developing insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia, with MTTOR, GH/IGF1, Insulin resistance, and hyperinsulinemia all strongly associated with chronic disease and aging.

 

Although, this was nice to see:

http://www.fasebj.or...upplement/246.2

 

"β-Hydroxy-β-Methylbutyrate (HMB) extends lifespan and attenuates age-dependent loss of flight ability in Drosophila melanogaster.  HMB enhances muscle strength in humans and attenuates disease-induced and disuse atrophy in rodents.  10 mg/ml HMB increased maximum lifespan by ~15% (75 ± 2 v 65 ± 2 days for MB00). The life extension effect was seen in females (12%) and males (17%). MB10 increased the median age of males"

Edited by brosci, 09 May 2016 - 06:13 PM.

[Junk Master]

There's an infamous quote from Bill Phillips, who compared the feeling of using HMB to Deca(Durabolin), as he was hyping it while engaged in a fight for the rights to sell HMB with Scott Connelly, the creator of Met-REX (after a bitter falling out), that has pretty much ensured his legacy as nothing more than a marketing huckster par excellence.

 

Honestly, SAVE YOUR MONEY.

 

You would be 10x better off using low dose tadalifil and agamatine sulfate to improve your pumps.

[Dolph]

All those HMB-"studies" with athletes are more or less pure marketing-stunts. You definetely won't get that kind of results! 

 

On the other hand there is enough "real" work on HMB that shows it's most certainly a valuably tool against sarcopenia at increased age or in the case of consuming disease.  I personally decided to use the "old" and cheap calcium form of HMB year round to minimize sarcopenic changes over time. 

[YOLF]

All those HMB-"studies" with athletes are more or less pure marketing-stunts. You definetely won't get that kind of results! 

 

On the other hand there is enough "real" work on HMB that shows it's most certainly a valuably tool against sarcopenia at increased age or in the case of consuming disease.  I personally decided to use the "old" and cheap calcium form of HMB year round to minimize sarcopenic changes over time. 

 

I bet there's some sclerosis benefits too. Other sarcopenia treatments are expected to reduce plaque formations. Any data for this?

[Junk Master]

I agree with Dolph.  I don't have the citations handy, but remember seeing studies on it's efficacy on sarcopenic changes over time.  

[brosci]

I'm curious what's in this article:

 

New strategies in sport nutrition to increase exercise performance (2016):

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/26855422

[jroseland]

I've taken 1000 milligrams (two capsules) of HMB before workouts and I believe there is a notable uptick in my gym performance. I'm able to lift more, do more pullups and pushups. I've been getting acquainted with some pre-workout supplements the last few weeks. I've also tried Mildronate before workouts. It's hard to for me to compare and contrast the two from my subjective experience because I'll admit that when it comes to my gym performance it's hard to tell the difference between pharmacologically enabled gains and me just being more aggressive or the placebo effect. There's not much subjective experience like taking a normal Nootropic.

[ceridwen]

I found Rapamycin to be pretty good

[John250]

Not sure if this would apply to the FA version:

https://supplementre...is-it-worth-224

[jroseland]

I beat my old pull up record on HMB. Out of a number of performance-enhancing workout supplements I've tried this is my favorite. There's a notable uptick in my power output on HMB. My priority in the gym is risk mitigation and my research into HMB indicates that it's one of the safest biohacks for building and maintaining muscle.

 

Watch: HMB vs Yohimbine HCL (Workout Supplement Comparison)

[Izan]

Fascinating new study:

Muscle-building supplement β-hydroxy β-methylbutyrate binds to PPARα to improve hippocampal functions in mice



Muscle-building supplement HMB binds to PPARα

•

HMB increases morphological plasticity of hippocampal neurons via PPARα

•

Oral HMB improves hippocampal functions in 5XFAD mice using PPARα

•

Oral HMB lowers plaques in 5XFAD mice through PPARα

https://www.cell.com...1247(23)00728-3