7 replies to this topic

[Laz34]

Hello, I'm a 24 years old student with asperger syndrome.

 

In the last weeks I've been following a very physically demanding training routine at the gym, for 5 days per week.

Almost every day, in the late afternoon I litterally crash: brain fog, exhaustion etc.

Since my diet and electrolytes are in check, I decided to order some well known adaptogen in order to mitigate the stress derived from the workouts.

 

I've ordered: Bacopa Monnieri from Mindnutrition.com, Ashwagandha from Smartnootropics.co.uk and CDP-choline from Mindnutrition.com .

 

Since the last Tuesday I have been taking this three supplements as pointed out in the examine.com stacks guides.

Basically I've done it this way:

 

With the first (fatty) meal of the day => 350mg Bacopa (51% bacosides) + 320mg Ashwagandha (7,5% withanolides) + 500mg CDP-Choline + 3g Creatine monohydrate + 5000 IU vitamin D3

And then another 500mg of CDP-Choline with the last meal of the day (around 8 hours after the first meal).

I also take, always with meals, curcumin longvida, fish oil (around 1000mg DHA x day), garlic extract (around 2g per day), vitamin C (around 1g per day).

The fact is that I've been able only to worsen the brain fog that I experience during the afternoons.

In particular I have felt confused, emotionless, sleepy (but without being able to fall asleep) and with a sensation of heavyness on this zone of the head: https://gyazo.com/16...2724d4f095c2aee

I thought that it was due to an excess of acetylcholine in the brain, due to the fact that I eat more than 12 eggs per week. I've also read that CDP-Choline can impair cognitive performance in high performing individuals. Since I have been tested to have an IQ higher than 130 sd15, I thought that maybe CDP-Choline supplementation could be detrimental in my case. So today I've tried to take the stack without the CDP-Choline.

 

Right now it is 15:22 here and I'm feeling kinda sleepy and absent. I'm not feeling the sensation of pressure upon the head like yesterday, but I'm definetly not lucid.

It may be for the association of Bacopa + Ashwagandha?

 

The idea behind taking Bacopa + CDP Choline was to boost neurogenesis and memory formation, as a study aid. While I thought that the Ashwagandha could make me less anxious and fight the bad mood (mild state of depression). My final goal is to achieve a good state of mental clarity during the afternoon in order to study well, despite the hard workouts. I heard that BHB salts + racetams are a pretty good combo for mental clarity and motivation, but a) BHB salts are way too expensive for me b) I live in Italy and here racetams are sold only under medical prescription.

 

Obviously what I'm doing is not working, so I'm asking:

 

1) Should I insist with this stack for more time, because adaptogens need more times in order to work properly? 2) Is the CDP-Choline responsable for the headache? I've been taking 1000mg per day splitted in two doses for the uridine synthesis also (for neurogenesis), is it worth to continue it or am I right to think that it could be detrimental in my situation? 3) I'm reading everywhere that Bacopa and Ashwaganda must have to be taken with dietary fat and early in the day. But if they're GABAnergic, isn't it better to take them during the last meal of the day? 4) I have ALCAR also. Does it have a safe spot in this stack? 5) Should I take Ashwaganda and Bacopa not together but, for example, one with the first meal of the day and one with the last meal of the day?

 

Thank you in advance,

Sorry for my english, it's not my main language.

[Baten]

Seems like the CDP Choline is the culprit. 1000mg per day is on the high side, capsules go 250mg up to (2) times a day recommended intake. If you are sensitive to choline supplementation, even 1 cap can more than suffice.

 

Too much choline can give headaches, and for me personally definitely causes depression/ sad feeling. Not everyone has this though, but if I were you I'd reduce the dosage by a lot. You ask if you can take ALCAR as well, it works on acetylcholine too so be careful with it, too.

 

Edit: the ashwagandha you're taking is also standardized quite highly. 2.5% is the common withanolides ammount, yours is thrice that. Too much ashwagandha can knock you out, make you sleepy.

Edited by Baten, 15 May 2016 - 02:25 PM.

[Laz34]

Seems like the CDP Choline is the culprit. 1000mg per day is on the high side, capsules go 250mg up to (2) times a day recommended intake. If you are sensitive to choline supplementation, even 1 cap can more than suffice.

 

Too much choline can give headaches, and for me personally definitely causes depression/ sad feeling. Not everyone has this though, but if I were you I'd reduce the dosage by a lot. You ask if you can take ALCAR as well, it works on acetylcholine too so be careful with it, too.

 

Edit: the ashwagandha you're taking is also standardized quite highly. 2.5% is the common withanolides ammount, yours is thrice that. Too much ashwagandha can knock you out, make you sleepy.

Three days ago I tried to take the Ashwagandha + 500mg of CDP-choline as pre-WO and then the Bacopa one hour after the workout (around 4 hours after the pre-WO). I was fine during the WO, then I crashed in the afternoon as usual, after taking Bacopa. The additional 500mg of CDP-choline that I took during the evening didn't help me to feel better.  

 

I think that the Bacopa has the most soporific effect on me, and I think also that CDP-choline is not aiding me. Maybe it could be useful if I was taking a racetam also, but since I'm not, it appears to be useless. 

 

I'd like to know if it's worth to hold on with the Bacopa, due to the long term memory potentiation effect, and in contemporary I must find something that is able to compensate the daze during the afternoon.  

[gamesguru]

Yeah, are you still eating the 12 eggs? Bacopa and ash both increase muscarinic and gaba binding, that can have a multitude of side effects. All three have interesting standalone properties, even citicoline is not your run off the mill choline source.

[Godof Smallthings]

If you already eat a lot of eggs, most likely, you do not need additional choline supplementation.

 

Based on my experience with bacopa (I've done 3 periods of 4 months 1/day), the best time to take bacopa is about 1 hour before bed. Just like you noticed, it can have a sedative effect.

 

[Laz34]

If you already eat a lot of eggs, most likely, you do not need additional choline supplementation.

 

Based on my experience with bacopa (I've done 3 periods of 4 months 1/day), the best time to take bacopa is about 1 hour before bed. Just like you noticed, it can have a sedative effect.

 

I'm kinda scared to take Bacopa before bed because of AChE inhibition.

 

However, today I took Ashwagandha as a pre-WO, with my usual protein shake and MCT oil. This time without the CDP-Choline. The result is that I felt kinda dazed and I had to take some caffeine in order to perform properly. 

 

I'm thinking to move Ashwagandha around 1 hour before sleep, with 0,5mg of melatonin + 3 caps of Z.M.A. , and then I was thinking also to take the Bacopa always on the first meal of the day, but associated with caffeine + a good source of cocoa or Rhodiola if I cycle off caffeine, in order to counterbalance the sedative effect. 

 

Also, I'm going to save that CDP-choline for an eventual racetam use in the future. 

 

How does it sound? 

[AntiAgingCentral]

As you are taking 12 eggs per week and you are only 24 years, So, I think you don't need to take so much of CDP Choline. Simply take 320mg Ashwagandha, 5000 IU vitamin D3, 1 Capsule fish oil, 1 Capsule garlic extract and 1 Tab ALCAR every day for 3 months and then change ALCAR and Vitamin C to 1 tab Piracetam and 1 tab CDP Choline for one month and then back to original stack.  This should be sufficient. 

 

[Godof Smallthings]

 

If you already eat a lot of eggs, most likely, you do not need additional choline supplementation.

 

Based on my experience with bacopa (I've done 3 periods of 4 months 1/day), the best time to take bacopa is about 1 hour before bed. Just like you noticed, it can have a sedative effect.

 

I'm kinda scared to take Bacopa before bed because of AChE inhibition.

 

However, today I took Ashwagandha as a pre-WO, with my usual protein shake and MCT oil. This time without the CDP-Choline. The result is that I felt kinda dazed and I had to take some caffeine in order to perform properly. 

 

I'm thinking to move Ashwagandha around 1 hour before sleep, with 0,5mg of melatonin + 3 caps of Z.M.A. , and then I was thinking also to take the Bacopa always on the first meal of the day, but associated with caffeine + a good source of cocoa or Rhodiola if I cycle off caffeine, in order to counterbalance the sedative effect. 

 

Also, I'm going to save that CDP-choline for an eventual racetam use in the future. 

 

How does it sound? 

 

 

Theoretically it sounds OK. I think you should try and see if you like the results.

 

Since there is always some individual variation in how we respond to different stacks, it is always best to try for a while. Personally, I found that bacopa in the morning or during the day was not ideal. Despite its alleged AChE effects, I haven't actually found that bacopa disturbs my sleep, which is why I settled for taking it 1 hour before bed. I would also meditate for 30 minutes just before bed. The combination of bacopa and meditation led to very restful and deep sleep. But then again, meditation alone tends to have that effect, too.

Also, you may want to experiment with the melatonin dosage to see what works best for you. For me, 0.2-0.3 mg is the sweet spot. My wife needs about double that. In my experience, too high a dose causes either serious fatigue the next morning, or sleeping too lightly during the early morning hours with very vivid dreams.

I never took ashwagandha before bed so I have no opinion on that.