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What can I do about 'adrenal fatigue'?

adrenal fatigue hpa-axis dysregulation depression anxiety

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#1 odspot

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 02:08 PM


Hi,

 

I have a long-term history of depression/anxiety/PTSD. I was finally doing better last year on things like NSI-189, Semax etc. (recovering my cognitive abilities helped my depression a lot), but then I suddenly 'crashed' 6 months ago and began to experience debilitating symptoms like hypoglycemia, dizziness, tinnitus, weight gain, stress intolerance/hypervigilance etc. 

 

Over time, my symptoms began to resemble hypothyroidism and I was convinced that was the answer (I had a mildly elevated TSH of 3.31 and a high RT3, though my FT3 and FT4 were normal); I also have consistently low body temperatures. I found a doctor who diagnosed me with adrenal fatigue (based on a saliva cortisol test) and subclinical hypothyroidism. He prescribed me Natural Dessicated Thyroid: it helped some of my physical symptoms, but also crashed me further. He then tried an adaptogen cocktail which seemed to 'activate' the thyroid meds, but I was just too overstimulated/irritable from the adaptogens.

 

Now, I'm not naive. I know I have a history of severe stress. But if it was purely depression, I would have thought that things like Reboxetine and NSI-189 (which used to work on my fatigue) would help, but now they just crash me further and make me more dizzy, hypoglycemic etc.

 

I don't really know what to try anymore or who to see. I know Dr Mariano fixes HPA-axis dysregulation with SSRIs but I can't take them due to side-effects (akathisia).

 

I've always been persistent in trying new things, but this is the first time where I feel like giving up. I'm sleeping 15 hours a day and have lost my will to live, pretty much accepting this is probably it for me. 

 

 

 

 



#2 sentics

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 03:24 PM

i heard about ppl taking pregnenolone for adrenal fatigue, never tried it myself though



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#3 sativa

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 03:30 PM

Repair and restore your adrenal glands.

Natural potent sources of vitamin c such as acerola cherry extract and vitamin B5, magnesium - all daily.

Sea salt every morning with water re aldosterone.

Avoid stimulants.

Some adaptogens can be of use too.

SSRIs shouldn't really be an option.

Underlying issues will be related to cortisol and vagus nerve function.

Imorove Vagus nerve:
selfhacked.com/2015/07/30/28-ways-to-stimulate-your-vagus-nerve-and-all-you-need-to-know-about-it/#contents

Re diet, avoid all grains (except perhaps white rice), nightshade vegetables and other harmful lectin containing foods (eg unprepared legumes, nuts) and dairy.

Ensure adequate high protein intake.

Adrenal function is linked to intestinal and digestive health so you also want to focus on healing that, using fermented foods and drinks. Glutamine also repairs/regenerates the digestive tract.

Edited by sativa, 23 May 2016 - 03:35 PM.


#4 odspot

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Posted 23 May 2016 - 04:14 PM

I've tried Vitamin C and Magnesium. They actually worsen my symptoms. I think they're far too weak at this point -- I'm bedridden.



#5 normalizing

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Posted 24 May 2016 - 09:28 PM

how does the sun make you feel? since you are always in bed, might as well go lay down somewhere outside where its sunny



#6 Finn

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 02:18 PM

 But if it was purely depression, I would have thought that things like Reboxetine and NSI-189 (which used to work on my fatigue) would help, but now they just crash me further and make me more dizzy, hypoglycemic etc.

 

 

Reboxetine is about as good antidepressant as atomoxetine (Strattera), so not a good one. It being accepted for depression in some countries is nice for ADHD patients, it is much cheaper than Strattera, and in addition to that, in many countries it is easier to get compensation for antidepressants than it is to get for ADHD meds.

 

http://blogs.discove...r/#.V0Wy85F96Uk

 

What other antidepressants have you tried?



#7 sativa

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 03:00 PM

From what OP has said, i think Antidepressants will only be a very short term superficial solution to an issue that seems to be quite complex involving the endocrine glands, HPA axis etc etc.
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#8 odspot

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:27 PM

 

 But if it was purely depression, I would have thought that things like Reboxetine and NSI-189 (which used to work on my fatigue) would help, but now they just crash me further and make me more dizzy, hypoglycemic etc.

 

 

Reboxetine is about as good antidepressant as atomoxetine (Strattera), so not a good one. It being accepted for depression in some countries is nice for ADHD patients, it is much cheaper than Strattera, and in addition to that, in many countries it is easier to get compensation for antidepressants than it is to get for ADHD meds.

 

http://blogs.discove...r/#.V0Wy85F96Uk

 

What other antidepressants have you tried?

 

 

Yes, but my point is not about its efficacy on my mood symptoms; if I did have straight-up depression, then I would figure the Reboxetine would just not help, rather than cause my pituary to crash. 

I've tried most antidepressants.



#9 odspot

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:32 PM

From what OP has said, i think Antidepressants will only be a very short term superficial solution to an issue that seems to be quite complex involving the endocrine glands, HPA axis etc etc.

 

Well, I believe the thyroid is involved. I obviously don't have anything like Addison's because I was producing cortisol on a fasting test. My GP has referred me to a neuropsychiatrist -- I'm wondering if he will be able to help, or just dismiss the symptoms.



#10 sativa

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:21 PM

How long has this been going for?

What starts out as adrenal "fatigue" can lead to other disregulations.

What's your health history like?

#11 DaneV

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Posted 25 May 2016 - 11:29 PM

I`m having issues similair to yours. Latetely i`ve been doing better on some weeks, and worse on others. Like you, every thing that helps me short term, makes me crash eventually. Including SSRI`s. When I`m on them, I feel less tired for a couple of weeks, but then s***t hits the fan. It`s really frustrating. I also had my saliva tested and got diagnosed with "Adreal Fatigue" due to low daytime cortisol.

 

What helps for me but is sometimes difficult when you`re trying to hold up a normal life along these symptoms:

 

- Have a decent day-night rhytm. Always wake up after 8-9 hours of sleep, even when you feel you need more sleep. Never sleep for 15 hours a night. If I don`t set my alarm clock for tomorrow and rise, despite my urge to stay in bed, I will easily sleep for 15 hours. The result will be that I feel incredibly bad for the whole day, even "bedridden".

- Do mild exercise every other day. I run 4km at a steady pace and use the day after to let my body recover. I can do more, but if I do that I will crash big time the day after. No strength exercise.

- Avoid ALL stimulants (Alcohol, coffee, excessive internet usage (especially the adult version of the internet). Again; anything that causes short-term relief seems to cause long-term worsening.

- Cope with the things that are causing stress in your life. Make daily logs about what makes you feel energized and what drains you. Cut the latter as much as you can. Talk to a psychologist.

- A supplement containing l-theanine, fish-oil and skullcap seems to help me a bit, but no miracles.

- Accept, accept, accept. Struggling with your symptoms causes stress which is the thing you`re trying to avoid. For me, the audiobooks from Claire weeks is a godsend on this part.

- Eat healthy. No "quick carbohydrates" like white bread, sugar and alcohol that stimulate you.

 

Unfortunately these things are no holy grail but they seem to improve my symptoms to some degree. I`m hoping if I keep up a good lifestyle, my symptoms will improve further over time. But I know there are some serious underlying psychological issues which hinder my body`s ability to recover and my motivation to make constructive lifestyle choices. If I don`t cope with these, my symptoms will stay.

 

Personally I think "adrenal fatigue" is a very inaccurate way to describe the problems we have. Adrenals don`t get tired. They are just getting the wrong signals from the CNS.


Edited by DaneV, 25 May 2016 - 11:40 PM.

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#12 odspot

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Posted 26 May 2016 - 01:37 PM

How long has this been going for?

What starts out as adrenal "fatigue" can lead to other disregulations.

What's your health history like?

 

It started a year ago. It was mostly tolerable at that point. I would 'crash' after e.g. a cup of coffee, but eating usually corrected it for a few hours. I was still active and working part-time. The symptoms have progressively worsened over the year. Nothing has helped, except switching to a Keto diet for the hypoglycemia. 

 

I have a long-term history of anxiety and major depression, but no other health problems. Unfortunately, I never responded well to ADs, so I guess living with chronic stress led me here, but I did my best to try get it under control. 

 

I am sincerely worried this is going to kill me, without sounding like a drama queen. Even today, my GP basically implied I'm a hypochondriac. It's so humiliating -- I am constantly dizzy and off-balance and can barely tolerate a warm shower, let alone any form of physical activity, but I'm a hypochondriac? It's very Kafka-esque, to feel so unwell but get dismissed by health professionals. 



#13 sativa

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Posted 26 May 2016 - 02:03 PM

Just remember that many western "health professionals" are not what they might seem to be.

DaneV's approach seems good!

I had a similar thing too, but nowhere near as severe/extreme as you two. I took a "shotgun approach" and did everything I could to help myself, that was within reach eg lots of magnesium, salt upon waking up, fermented drinks, adrquate protein intake, no problematic foods that delay recovery (meat, dairy, wheat, nightshade vegetables, legumes).

I also changed my environment! Thankfully I moved house at around the same time to a much calmer neighbourhood.

Edited by sativa, 26 May 2016 - 02:04 PM.


#14 AlmostEasy

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Posted 28 May 2016 - 08:26 PM

Physiologically doses of hydrocortisone might help, might make it worse, it's hard to say.

 

I'm having some similar, I think, HPA axis dysfunction and hydrocortisone seems to be an important part of it.  I started buying the Cortizone 10 ointment, not cream, and.. yes, ingesting it.  Up to 30 mg / day as recommended by a few outlets as the maximum dose for adult males.  20mg - 25mg for females.  It was a massive improvement for about 3-4 weeks then I kind of came back down again.  Temps were back up to 98.2+ and I was feeling great.  Going and doing things was effortless, typically a decision to go out and about was a massive deal.  When that calmed down I attempted to add T3 into the mix and that I'm still playing with.  It's helped a lot but I don't know where to go as I feel I'm chasing the dragon some, but I also might not be.  I've heard of peripheral T3 resistance mentioned but I don't know if that's a thing.  Some people apparently need epic doses of it to get into the tissues.  All my thyroid labs are great, except rT3 being slightly high and my salivary cortisol in 2014 was very whacky.  High in the morning, almost no reading mid day, and then way over norm the following 2 measures.  No idea.

 

Ashwagandha was a lifesaver for a while as well as phosphatidylserine but now they both do basically nothing.

 

I'm also on testosterone replacement but that's done basically nothing at all either except help me maintain muscle.  Zero benefit in energy / mood / clarity.  I actually was having moderate - severe erectile dysfunction with my T levels in the 700's.  Low Dose Naltrexone took care of that but nothing else.

 

From what I've read the thyroid is actually very resilient (only 1 article though, haven't looked at too many) and a study showed that even those on T3 for 30+ years who had been misdiagnosed recovered their thyroid function to normal in a matter of weeks.  I'm curious about pumping higher levels of T3 but I'd rather not if it's not the issue.  Who the hell knows, no one does it seems.

 

Licorice root certainly helps some and I'm taking every supportive supplement for the HPA that I can.

 

This is an incredible article on dispelling the myth of adrenal fatigue and revealing what it really is about, as far as science has discovered so far:

http://www.pointinst....2_hpa_axis.pdf

 

DHEA even in small amounts, 10 mg, make me extremely emotional.  I think it's converting to estrogen.  Pregnenolone doesn't seem to do anything beneficial really.

 

I would really take a look at using licorice root regularly.  There are a lot of warnings about it but I've also read people taking 6-8 caps of moderately strong stuff a day and not having any blood pressure issues.  Find out how it works for you because it helps me quite a lot.  Something about it is more potent cognitively than even hydrocortisone.  I don't know if there is something in the brain it helps more than peripherally as HC may but it helps.  I hit devastating walls of fatigue sometimes where it feels like if I try to do more than watch television I'm going to die.  This is usually after long term study binges but it's not hard to get there.

 

From what I understand from that PDF is that an overdriven HPA axis overtime overrides the negative feedback loop and causes a dysfunction in signalling.  From there, I don't know what happens or what to do, or the physiology behind it.

 

Bowel tolerance Vitamin C may help.  In the PDF you'll see Vit C is pulled to create the corticosteroids.  It does not help me, but a friend I work with with similar issues that I met on reddit and chat with finds that Vit C can raise his body temperature quite consistently.  I don't know of anything else that would do that other than properly regulating his corticosteroid production.

 

This is a bit of a fork in the road, but still valuable I think for our discussion:
http://www.lifeexten...njuries/Page-01

 

I'm going to start looking into hypopituitarism and HGH deficits and if that can be related to all this.  I've also seen talk of SARMS being helpful.

 

These you might find helpful as well:

Mefiprestone
 
Galantamine HPA reset | Hypothalamus / Pituitary Glandulars
 
HPA Reboot - Rooibos Tea
 
I wish I had a better answer for you and myself but it's quite overwhelming.  I've been looking for solutions for so many years and not much has come of it.  I've only recently started looking at the HPA again after giving up on it after TRT did nothing for me, and high cortisol levels confusing me about "adrenal fatigue".
 
I'll report back if I find anything else interesting.

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#15 odspot

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 01:28 PM

 

Physiologically doses of hydrocortisone might help, might make it worse, it's hard to say.

 

I'm having some similar, I think, HPA axis dysfunction and hydrocortisone seems to be an important part of it.  I started buying the Cortizone 10 ointment, not cream, and.. yes, ingesting it.  Up to 30 mg / day as recommended by a few outlets as the maximum dose for adult males.  20mg - 25mg for females.  It was a massive improvement for about 3-4 weeks then I kind of came back down again.  Temps were back up to 98.2+ and I was feeling great.  Going and doing things was effortless, typically a decision to go out and about was a massive deal.  When that calmed down I attempted to add T3 into the mix and that I'm still playing with.  It's helped a lot but I don't know where to go as I feel I'm chasing the dragon some, but I also might not be.  I've heard of peripheral T3 resistance mentioned but I don't know if that's a thing.  Some people apparently need epic doses of it to get into the tissues.  All my thyroid labs are great, except rT3 being slightly high and my salivary cortisol in 2014 was very whacky.  High in the morning, almost no reading mid day, and then way over norm the following 2 measures.  No idea.

 

Ashwagandha was a lifesaver for a while as well as phosphatidylserine but now they both do basically nothing.

 

I'm also on testosterone replacement but that's done basically nothing at all either except help me maintain muscle.  Zero benefit in energy / mood / clarity.  I actually was having moderate - severe erectile dysfunction with my T levels in the 700's.  Low Dose Naltrexone took care of that but nothing else.

 

From what I've read the thyroid is actually very resilient (only 1 article though, haven't looked at too many) and a study showed that even those on T3 for 30+ years who had been misdiagnosed recovered their thyroid function to normal in a matter of weeks.  I'm curious about pumping higher levels of T3 but I'd rather not if it's not the issue.  Who the hell knows, no one does it seems.

 

Licorice root certainly helps some and I'm taking every supportive supplement for the HPA that I can.

 

This is an incredible article on dispelling the myth of adrenal fatigue and revealing what it really is about, as far as science has discovered so far:

http://www.pointinst....2_hpa_axis.pdf

 

DHEA even in small amounts, 10 mg, make me extremely emotional.  I think it's converting to estrogen.  Pregnenolone doesn't seem to do anything beneficial really.

 

I would really take a look at using licorice root regularly.  There are a lot of warnings about it but I've also read people taking 6-8 caps of moderately strong stuff a day and not having any blood pressure issues.  Find out how it works for you because it helps me quite a lot.  Something about it is more potent cognitively than even hydrocortisone.  I don't know if there is something in the brain it helps more than peripherally as HC may but it helps.  I hit devastating walls of fatigue sometimes where it feels like if I try to do more than watch television I'm going to die.  This is usually after long term study binges but it's not hard to get there.

 

From what I understand from that PDF is that an overdriven HPA axis overtime overrides the negative feedback loop and causes a dysfunction in signalling.  From there, I don't know what happens or what to do, or the physiology behind it.

 

Bowel tolerance Vitamin C may help.  In the PDF you'll see Vit C is pulled to create the corticosteroids.  It does not help me, but a friend I work with with similar issues that I met on reddit and chat with finds that Vit C can raise his body temperature quite consistently.  I don't know of anything else that would do that other than properly regulating his corticosteroid production.

 

This is a bit of a fork in the road, but still valuable I think for our discussion:
http://www.lifeexten...njuries/Page-01

 

I'm going to start looking into hypopituitarism and HGH deficits and if that can be related to all this.  I've also seen talk of SARMS being helpful.

 

These you might find helpful as well:

Mefiprestone
 
Galantamine HPA reset | Hypothalamus / Pituitary Glandulars
 
HPA Reboot - Rooibos Tea
 
I wish I had a better answer for you and myself but it's quite overwhelming.  I've been looking for solutions for so many years and not much has come of it.  I've only recently started looking at the HPA again after giving up on it after TRT did nothing for me, and high cortisol levels confusing me about "adrenal fatigue".
 
I'll report back if I find anything else interesting.

 

 

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply.

 

It does sound like we're in relatively similar situations, though I think there are two strong confounding factors that have both contributed to my current crash, and which may prevent me from ever recovering.

 

1. I'm very prone to experiencing akathisia as a medication side-effect, which most conventional options (beta-blockers, Cogentin etc.) don't help. Benzos result in paradoxical agitation.

2. I live in a profoundly stressful home environment: it's noisy and claustrophobic with very little possibilities for privacy. As a result, my sleep schedule has become altered to the point where I'm frequently awake until 5-6am.

 

I was reading Dr Mariano's writings on HPA-axis dysfunction and he stresses two things, namely that it is better to treat the source of the dysfunction than to resort to steroids. Since that source in my case is mental illness (OCD, depression, PTSD, ADD), the best option would be SSRIs, but of course I'm limited by the akathisia.

 

Alternatively, he says that steroids won't really work if you're continually exposed to high levels of stress .. which I am, because I find the noise at home intolerable (generally when my family is around, from 5pm -- 11pm). Trying to remain out constantly -- and overdoing it with stimulating agents like NSI-189, caffeine etc. -- is probably what got me here, though the stress has been accumulating for years. I'm too unwell to work, and also am not entitled for disability support where I live, so moving out has never been an option. Also, it's not like there's much to do outside the house when you have anergic depression, ADD and OCD. Nootropics turned my life around completely for 2 years and gave me purpose (because I could cognitively function) but ultimately crashed me I guess. 

 

What I am confused about -- and maybe you can shed some insight on this -- is why both raising and lowering cortisol makes me feel worse. If I take Melatonin, Magnesium, Ashwaghanda etc., I become more hypoglycemic, more stress-intolerant, find it more difficult to sleep (due to increased adrenaline) etc. But if try stuff like Pregnenolone, the adaptogens, etc. I tend to crash as well. Maybe it's some kind of feedback loop issue where my body is sensing the increased cortisol and turning down ACTH?

 

There was one week where I didn't feel like I was in remission per se, but it sounds a little like your initial HC experience: after taking a month off coffee, I began drinking it with coconut oil. My resilience to stress was amazing, I didn't feel so off-balance all the time (I could go out and see friends, walk around the city etc., whereas I'm usually scared to shower because of disequilibrium), my cognitive issues disappeared, though I was a little agitated. I grew tolerant after a week and the coffee just crashed me thereafter.

 

I wondered if it was some kind of synergy between the caffeine and coconut oil -- i.e. the coffee was raising cortisol and the coconut oil was boosting thyroid.

 

Natural Dessicated Thyroid didn't help, nor did adaptogens, but the two together had a similar synergy (albeit with similar agitation that forced me to stop).

 

So I'm feeling pretty lost now and like any changes I try to institute might be pointless because there is no way to get my source of stress under control. It's begat a really bad feedback-cycle where I'm sleeping more (as much as I can), isolating, growing genuinely suicidal etc. Yet reaching out seems equally pointless because I guess my worry is a psychiatrist will be relatively limited in terms of what they can do with such a fucked-up case -- and how they might differentiate HPA-dysfunction like this from regular depression, or even buy into the hypoglycemia etc. (which most doctors don't, since fasting insulin is normal).

 

Vitamin C doesn't help me. I looked into Mefiprestone but it's really expensive (like $50 a pill I think?). Rooibos tea makes me worse (by lowering cortisol). I have not tried Galantamine.

 

Epitalon seemed extremely promising. I mentioned this in my first post, I think, but I tried it at the outset of my crash and it was already too late at that point -- because I would feel worse injecting it at night (since it lowers cortisol); but I had so much more energy during the day (more than since my depression began 8 years ago). I keep thinking that if I had tried it earlier, like 6 months prior, maybe all of this could have been prevented since it would have regulated cortisol levels and possibly prevented desensitization.

 

So, yeah, I have been putting off trying the HC -- maybe out of self-sabotage, because I fear that even if it helps, I'll probably maintain my shitty sleep-cycle, which is totally counter-productive to exogenous cortisol use.  



#16 AlmostEasy

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 05:41 PM

Alright, seems like you've certainly done your homework.

 

 

 

What I am confused about -- and maybe you can shed some insight on this -- is why both raising and lowering cortisol makes me feel worse. If I take Melatonin, Magnesium, Ashwaghanda etc., I become more hypoglycemic, more stress-intolerant, find it more difficult to sleep (due to increased adrenaline) etc. But if try stuff like Pregnenolone, the adaptogens, etc. I tend to crash as well. Maybe it's some kind of feedback loop issue where my body is sensing the increased cortisol and turning down ACTH?

Ashwagandha will lower cortisol.  I've heard the argument that it can raise it when it's low, but I've yet to see evidence of this.  Hypoglycemia is a direct sign of cortisol issue, as well as the stress intolerance.  Pregnenolone won't necessarily result in increased cortisol if there are signalling issues in the first place.  I get nothing but uncomfortable stimulation from it.  I think the error in thinking is that these are raising your cortisol.

 

The #1 thing I would do right away is try out some licorice root as that's going to be the safest way to truly test HIGHER levels of cortisol.  All of those other supplements are kind of shooting in the dark, it's hard to really tell the exact mechanism that's helping / hurting; though it does sound like Ashwagandha is lowering cortisol.  Adrenal cortex (ADRENergize from Enzymatic Therapy is a great option), and not adrenal glandular which will contain epiniphrine, is also a lightweight option.  I've not seen it discussed... but obviously the cortex will contain hydrocortisone which is the thing in it that helps, what else would possibly do that?  Thyroid glandular contains T1/2/3/4 etc, so the cortex will contain what it produces.

 

If that is inconclusive I would recommend the hydrocortisone ointment.  Your situation is extreme, and physiological doses of hydrocortisone are not that extreme of a treatment.  It's not uncommon for people to take 20 mg for quite a while and easily wean off, though I have heard of people having just odd reactions to it in the first place.  Start slow.  I tolerate it extremely well as I do most things.  It has only helped.  My ability to do work on demand has increased massively.  The amount of mental effort it used to take just to get myself to do basically anything at all was a several hour long battle.

 

http://misslizzy.me/...drenal-fatigue/

http://www.stoptheth...renal-info/faq/

 

Of course it will ALWAYS be better to treat the source and I tried that for many many years, but at some point in time, after enough time passes, you may realize that maybe some quality of life while your searching wouldn't be such a bad thing.  I resisted a lot of treatments because I wanted to tough it out and through sheer force of will cure myself, but that has yet to happen and I need help.

 

 

There was one week where I didn't feel like I was in remission per se, but it sounds a little like your initial HC experience: after taking a month off coffee, I began drinking it with coconut oil. My resilience to stress was amazing, I didn't feel so off-balance all the time (I could go out and see friends, walk around the city etc., whereas I'm usually scared to shower because of disequilibrium), my cognitive issues disappeared, though I was a little agitated. I grew tolerant after a week and the coffee just crashed me thereafter.

 

I wondered if it was some kind of synergy between the caffeine and coconut oil -- i.e. the coffee was raising cortisol and the coconut oil was boosting thyroid.

-----------------------
 

"My experience with T3 was that if I wasn't supplementing cortisol the T3 didn't really do anything at all, whereas when it was there it was very powerful.  Might be something to try.

 

Natural Dessicated Thyroid didn't help, nor did adaptogens, but the two together had a similar synergy (albeit with similar agitation that forced me to stop)."

Sounds like your HPA recovered a bit then you tapped it out again.  Sounds like low cortisol.  Licorice root may offer you that same feeling without taxing the system, it just prevents it's breakdown so it remains in the system longer.  Make sure you're not getting the DGL licorice root, that removes the Glycyrrhiza is the thing you want.

____________

 

 

StopTheThyroidMadness claims that without cortisol, T3 will "pool" in the blood, unable to get into the cells.

 

https://www.nahypoth...mone-transport/

 

"Thus, a high reverse T3 demonstrates that there is either an inhibition of reverse T3 uptake into the cell and/or there is increased T4 to reverse T3 formation. These always occur together in a wide range of physiologic conditions and both cause reduced intracellular T4 and T3 levels and cellular hypothyroidism."

 

high rT3, which I have, is an anti-thyroid hormone.  It will plug up T3 receptors.  Getting that under control, which I'm still reading about, can allow T3 to actually do its job.  STTM claims that high rT3 is due to adrenal fatigue, but being that I don't think that actually exists I'm not sure what that implicates.  If you put STTM's and this together it doesn't seem too far of a stretch to implicate that low cortisol could contribute to the increased rT3.  Why/how?  No idea.

 

https://www.nahypoth...ysiology-graph/

 

 

"The most important determinant of thyroid activity is the intra-cellular level of T3, and the most important determinant of the intracellular T3 level is the activity of the cellular thyroid transporters (1-67). Reduced thyroid transport into the cell is seen with a wide range of common conditions, including insulin resistance, diabetes, depression, bipolar disorder, hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol and triglycerides), chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, neurodegenerative diseases (Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis), migraines, stress, anxiety, chronic dieting and aging (1-43,46,49,51,52,53,58,60,66,68,69,72-118)."

The reduced thyroid transport seen with these conditions results in an artificial elevation in serum thyroid levels (especially T4), making this a poor marker for tissue thyroid levels as well (5,40,41,49,52,53,62,66,67). An elevated or high-normal reverse T3 is shown to currently be the best marker for reduced transport of thyroid hormones and an indication that a person has low cellular thyroid levels despite the fact that standard thyroid tests such as TSH, free T4, and free T3 are normal (6,32,41,45,62,66,67,125-172) 

 

 

So I wouldn't quite give up on NDT yet, but perhaps keep it and test it in intervals to see if it can properly work.  Maybe it won't at all, who knows.  Nature of the beast I guess, test it all.  You did mention the adaptogens "activating" the thyroid meds.  Perhaps the reduction in stress response helped lower rT3, allowing T3 to actually get in.  Plausible.

 

This sounds extreme man, I'd really consider the HC ointment.  It's like $8 for a 2 oz tube with 560 mg in it.  I take 10 mg / 10 mg / 5 mg / 5 mg every 4 hours.  1 g / 500 mg of the ointment.  My Dr prescribed me generic hydrocortisone but it's completely junk, doesn't work at all.  Cortef I got a script for too but might not a pre-auth, it's expensive.

 

Other than that you already know about what needs to happen to manage stress.  Do note too that people can up to double their HC doses for a "stress dose" in times of illness / obvious stressors.  I just feel like having your body / mind in this kind of state for this long is significantly more harmful than being on hydrocortisone to normalize your physiology.  When you're out of the extreme situation you're in it may be good to ween off but for the time being not doing it seems significantly more damaging.

 

I wish I had a less habit forming option but also if you think about it people take thyroid meds indefinitely.  Why couldn't HC be the same?  I don't know if that's how it may work but I know my HPA hasn't improved in the slightest with every nootropic / supplement combo known to man.  Perhaps it can't?  Thyroid patients don't recover from their dysfunction as far as I know, except some with Paleo.

 

Good luck!



#17 sativa

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Posted 29 May 2016 - 06:18 PM

As an aside, there is a link between immune system disregulation, problematic proteins eg gluten and lectins and thyroid autoimmune conditions.

#18 odspot

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Posted 30 May 2016 - 07:26 AM

@AlmostEasy ..

 

ARGHHH .. I just spent like an hour writing out a reply to you that was lost after I submitted it. I can't be bothered writing it out again, so I'll just list the points/questions 

 

1. Ashwaghanda does lower cortisol according to Examine. One perturbing symptom I experience when lowering cortisol is air hunger, which Ashwaghanda induced.

 

2. I'm on a Ketogenic diet for the hypoglycemia; it prevents cortisol breakdown, kind of like Licorice Root. However, will Licorice Root help if cortisol output is low? Also, doesn't it raise Estrogen? I have a bottle that I haven't experimented with yet. 

 

3. There's mixed evidence on RT3 -- some say it blocks T3, others say there's no proof behind that theory. I believe both high and low cortisol can render one hypothyroid -- by blocking access to the cells. Things like low iron, inflammation etc. drive up RT3. I know T3 is required for cortisol synthesis, and some people claim to have cured both their hypothyroidism and 'adrenal fatigue' by lowering RT3 .. mine was at the top of the range.

 

4. Do you know if treating hypothyroidism has any effect on dopamine/GABA metabolism? NDT increased my erection quality/sensitivity considerably, even if it did nothing for my fatigue. Since withdrawing from it, my akathisia flared up again, after being in remission and has persisted for weeks now. It's stupidly frustrating. Maybe I just have a really sensitive pituitary. When I tried T3 after that, it just felt really noradrenergic and made me even more restless.

 

5. I have a bottle of generic hydrocortisone that I ordered from a site that STTM Facebook groups recommend. I will try it, and if not, move onto the ointment.

 

I know you respond well to stuff (whereas I don't at all), but do you find the HC subjectively calming or stimulating? I am worried about it affecting my akathisia. My major concern is also not actually being able to reduce stress in any effective way. I was housesitting for a friend a few month's ago and the difference to my psyche was night-and-day. I didn't feel hypervigilant, could relax, do things in the evening etc. At home, I just hole up in my room with earplugs when my family is home in the evening, then I'm too awake late at night because I haven't expent any energy. I know it sucks, but I have little control over my situation. So I fear that maintaining bad sleep hours (due to my living situation) and supplementing exogenous cortisol is pointless.

 

Of course, I could be feeling this way because low cortisol makes one feel kinda helpless, but I don't know. If it gave me enough energy to go out and get some stuff done in the day, that might make a difference. I have also thought about a longer-acting steroid like Prednisone, since there would be less pressure to maintain levels throughout the day.

 

6. Some people on Phoenixrising say that correcting methylation fixed their adrenal issues. I have low B12 (plus Vit D, iron etc.) but can't supplement because even that worsens my hypoglycemia. So it's possible going on HC could allow me to address all the other stuff that's wrong.

 



#19 odspot

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Posted 30 May 2016 - 09:21 AM

Also, have you ever seen a psychiatrist for this sort of thing?

 

My GP referred me to a neuropsychiatrist. Wondering if it's a waste of time. 



#20 AlmostEasy

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Posted 30 May 2016 - 05:17 PM

Of course it will extend cortisol if out put is low, it prevents the breakdown.  Even if you had only 1 molecule of cortisol it would prolong how long it is in circulation.

 

I think you're much too concerned about theory and what ifs.  Theory is great if you can truly pinpoint things with an exact science, but this is not exact.  The experiment is pretty harmless, I'd just do it and see what happens and if you don't like it 1 or 2 days just don't do it again but if it helps, then there you go.  It doesn't make much sense to live in fear of it for months on end when the risk is almost nothing, for a test run at least.

 

Safe experimentation is king.  We can argue for years about 20 different studies showing this and that, and while that's always beneficial to know to give you ideas and to know the safety profile of it, actually doing it literally is the only way to know what's going to happen.  There's thyroid and cortisol.  Try one without the other, the other without the one, and/or both together.  Not much to it.  If you don't like it, don't do it again.  You could worry for the next 6 months if it's going to keep you up at night or not or help with stress, or you could just do it today and then you will literally have the exact, 100% true, undeniable answer and you'll never have to wonder again.

 

Again with the neurotransmitter stuff.  Reading about it on paper is fine and dandy but.. just trying it is the only way you're going to find out and whether or not the theories are right or wrong or substantial doesn't really matter, what's going to happen will happen.  I've read that T3 is important in NTM production but so is every other thing I've ever looked at so who knows to what degree.  There's thousands of different things contributing to NTM's, everyone is different, no one can tell you but experience what's going to happen for certain.

 

I'm not sure what a neuropsychiatrist entails.  If it's just therapy talk it could help the emotional side of things which I've found helpful but it will never correct physiological dysfunction of course.  It's not an "all in your head" thing even if stress contributes to it.  For me stress or no stress I feel like shit, but it's possible I have Lyme or something contributing to HPA dysfunction.

 

Cortisol is calming for me.  I have more energy, and I'm calm.  Just nice easy free flowing energy whereas without it I feel toxic, unhealthy, very rough.  Decisions about what to do become difficult as it invokes a stress response I can't respond to, with cortisol even deciding to go on a 2 hour drive is like.. sure, yeah, let's go!

 

This really boils down to something incredibly simple.  Try those 2 things out and if they don't help, don't use them and you can move forward onto something that will.

 

Good luck!


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#21 odspot

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Posted 01 June 2016 - 07:40 AM

Alright, so I bit the bullet and have been experimenting with Hydrocortisone for the last couple of days. Unfortunately, it makes me feel like crap -- kinda spacey/medicated, more aggressive, nauseous .. and the interdosing withdrawals are a pain in the ass.

 

Really disappointing, but at least I gave it a shot.

 

Not sure where to go from here. I'm thinking about trying an AD like Moclobemide to see if I can at least partially recover my HPA-axis. Moclobemide might not trigger akathisia: http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1687486

 

 

 

 



#22 perplex

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 09:16 PM

That could be related to dosage. 

 

If the dosage of hydrocortisol you try is too small it will just add to your anxiety, nervousness and wired and tired feeling.

 

The dosage has to be sufficient to support the adrenals without shutting down the adrenals.

 

How much did you try?



#23 kurdishfella

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Posted 10 December 2017 - 08:51 PM

try vitex agnus castus



#24 Seganfredo

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 02:18 AM

I realize it's pretty much a dead topic, but for the sake of ppl with adrenal dysfunction who may search this topic looking for some pointers...

 

I've had such bad cortisol issues that I had adrenal crisis 3 times. I've been shot to the chest with a .38 caliber and it's an awful situation to be in, but I'll tell you all that drama of an adrenal crisis comes kinda close to it.

 

I've researched far and long, and I see strong correlations between:

 

- PTSD (especially from childhood trauma - having one or more as$#oles for caretakers) /severe lack of trust in others / callousness / secondary psychopathy (mild to severe) / Chronically Activated Threat Response (a synonym to PTSD?)

- Chronic stress (PTSD being a good part of it, and the perfectionism and "paranoia" steming from it usually being the rest)

- Long-term stimulant abuse (coffee being a common culprit)

- Long-term cyrcadian rhythm dysruption & sleep deficit

Brain deterioration/dysregulation (especially hypothalamic) & Psychiatric conditions stemming from it (callousness, depression, derealization/dissociative disorders, etc)

Gut-Brain axis & HPA axis disorders

Herpes/Retroviruses Infection (HSV1, HSV2, EBV, HHV6, HIV...)

- Chronic/Severe Fungal Infection - https://moldymovie.com/ (don't watch if you don't like Dave Asprey, the "Bulletproof" guy)

- "Blowing a fuse" through maintained stress (the fuse likely being the hypothalamus and/or pituitary).

Adrenal Exhaustion/Insufficiency/Dysregulation (Hypo/Hypercortisolemia)
- Every type of Autoimmune disorder in the book (and some unknown ones)

- Gluten, milk, sugar and every other type of chemical, food or even forcefield (really) sensitivity/intolerance imaginable

- Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) / Fibromyalgia

 

I've no idea if I'm right or wrong - this is where my research and experiences have led me.

If you guys find the assumptions to be partly correct for yourself(ves), do tell.



#25 Seganfredo

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Posted 18 August 2020 - 02:22 AM

I theorize it goes something like this - even though this is just a generic model, probably radically different from many/most actual cases - it's only a model to organize ideas:

 

Person X develops PTSD as a response to abuse, making him/her have severe trust issues as a result, which makes them never let their guard down for feeling unsafe at all times, leading to Chronic Stress (Hypercortisolemia). PTSD on its own will be more than enough to generate other Psychiatric Disorders, but being in overdrive might slowly wear and tear the Adrenal Glands (if that is truly a thing) and/or unbalance the HPA axis and Immune System (its proper, balanced function is cortisol-dependent), leading to a cascade of secondary problems and symptoms: Sleep DeficitCyrcadian Rhythm Dysfuction, and lack of proper Catecholamine Production.

 

Living this way, one will feel tired/drowsy/unmotivated all the time, leading to chronic Stimulant Abuse as stimulants seem like a working fix for the fatigue, and one gets used living in this Highstrung-then-fatigued manner. This lifestyle, in turn, will be training the Hypothalamus and Pituitary glands to expect mammoth doses of stimulants to secrete cortisol and their other juices, making them dysregulated - "lazy" on their own, when not pushed to an overdrive through substance abuse.

 

Somewhere along these lines, Person X gets exposed to one or more Chronic Infectantsmold/fungiherpetic viruses or retroviruses, opportunistic bacteria and/or heavy metals. As the immunity is thrown off balance by the whole situation described so far, the invaders will throw a party inside the host while remaining hidden. They'll affect one or more organ systems, creating a sequence of symptoms of their own leading to specificieties later down the line when X develops Autoimune Disorders. Some infecting bodies - ie. herpetic viruses - will usually infect the gut, the vagus nerve - gaining entrance and wreaking havoc at multiple organ systems from it - ie. messing with the heart and breathing rhythms -, trigeminal nerve, and from there the brain tissue, and nerves along the extremities, maybe causing sore fingers from time to time, skin conditions (redness/irritations/dermatitis herpetiformis/lupus/psoriasis....), "hot ears", etc, etc, etc. That's about when common fooditems get to become a problem, with Multiple Intolerances (gluten, milk, peanuts, yeasts, eggs....).

 

All throughout this X will likely be abusing more and more of stimulating substances and behaviors/emotions (excercise, discussions, anger, sex, etc.) to feel well or even "normal". Then it happens that one or more parts of the HPA axis go "enough is enough" and the body crashes - either gradually or quite suddenly and even loudly. That's about when the Autoimmune Cascade fun starts and Person X may develop severe reactions to stimulants (heart palpitations, etc), strange Pains in Nerves (FM), and Unrelenting Extreme Fatigue (ME/CFS) that usually can't even be shaken off by sleep.


Edited by Seganfredo, 18 August 2020 - 02:23 AM.


#26 giant

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Posted 23 November 2020 - 11:02 PM

What do people think about bovine adrenal concentrate supplements?

 

I take x2 capsules daily of the product I use which amounts to 680mg of adrenal



#27 zorba990

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Posted 24 November 2020 - 06:24 PM

What do people think about bovine adrenal concentrate supplements?

I take x2 capsules daily of the product I use which amounts to 680mg of adrenal


My experience many years ago was that the ones that work (Drenamin in my case). Can certainly cause feedback shutdown and should not be stopped suddenly.
I have found Panthethine to be much better long term for maintaining adrenal function.

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#28 Seganfredo

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Posted 10 December 2020 - 12:40 AM

What do people think about bovine adrenal concentrate supplements?

 

I take x2 capsules daily of the product I use which amounts to 680mg of adrenal

 

Personally, I've tried bottles of the thing but haven't felt much of a difference tbh. What really makes a difference (in the moment and stops/helps against any adrenal crisis) is taking cortisol, obviously.

 

My experience many years ago was that the ones that work (Drenamin in my case). Can certainly cause feedback shutdown and should not be stopped suddenly.
I have found Panthethine to be much better long term for maintaining adrenal function.

 

Drenamin and Panthethine. I'll have a look at those.







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