95 replies to this topic

[mkp6019]

Has any one analyzed dosing requirements for humans and the monthly cost of such a regim? Many of the supplements like A, C, D and E, b-vitamins are relatively inexpensive but some of the other ones I am less certain about.  I guess a person could adjust this regime based on current diet and skip some supplements but great news IMO and maybe worth shelling out a few bucks for the possibility of better health. 

[pamojja]

Has any one analyzed dosing requirements for humans and the monthly cost of such a regim?

 

On page 1 of this thread: http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=777324
..note the error with mcg / mg, and a rough estimate a few posts latter.

[Kinesis]

Has any one analyzed dosing requirements for humans and the monthly cost of such a regim? Many of the supplements like A, C, D and E, b-vitamins are relatively inexpensive but some of the other ones I am less certain about. I guess a person could adjust this regime based on current diet and skip some supplements but great news IMO and maybe worth shelling out a few bucks for the possibility of better health.

There are several multi supplements on the market that at least roughly approximate the study mix, better yet, presumably optimized for human nutrition. Life Extension, Thorne, and Hardy being some examples.

If nothing else, they will give you an idea of the real world cost of a high quality multiple.

[shifter]

What would happen if you gave that lion lots of sugar and fizzy drinks also?

[normalizing]

shifter, interesting.... i might experiment with this idea next time i visit the zoo

[shifter]

Awesome. Let me know how that works out

[Synaptik]

My biggest Fountain of Youth supplement is ginkgo biloba. Have been using it religiously daily for 18 years (I'm 40 now), and don't have one wrinkle or grey hair or anything. Most people think I'm in my mid to late 20's. I've always been a little obsessed with staying young and I figured ginkgo biloba, with its great safety profile, UNIQUE ginkgobilides, species longevity (oldest living species currently on the planet), and regeneration from Nagasaki/Hiroshima ground zero blasts... it's always been a no-brainer for me. It's not like I've lived like a saint either. I'm completely sold on it.

 

But I've always combined other anti-ox supplements in combination with ginkgo. Hours-long steeped green tea at night daily (nowadays yerbe mate or hawthorne berry tea) and others anti-ox compliments. Nowadays, my routine is consistent:

 

Morning

- Tumeric + olive oil + 2 big pinches of ground pepper: 2-4 teapsoons

- 1 capsule standardlized gotu kola (or before bed if I forget in the morning)

- 500mg niacin (NA)

 

Afternoon

- 15-20 drops ginkgo biloba tincture

- 500mg niacin (NA)

 

Night (around bedtime)

- Tumeric + olive oil + 2 big pinches of ground pepper: 2-4 teapsoons

- 500mg niacin

- possibly a second gotu kola or ginkgo tincture (15-20 drops)

- Hawthorne berry/yerbe mate/red clover tea

 

 

I used to take ginkgo 3 times daily but cut back since adding the tumeric (anticoagulant). The Niacin has been recent addition (about 2 1/2 months), and the motivation was to help depression symptoms. It has been my godsend in normalizing my overactive mind and making me feel truly 'normal'. The fact that it eliminated my headaches & allergies completely, AND is one of the few truly beneficial anti-aging supplements (complementing my regimen), I'll be taking it forever.

 

 

Edited by Synaptik, 21 August 2016 - 04:18 AM.

[Synaptik]

My biggest Fountain of Youth supplement is ginkgo biloba. Have been using it religiously daily for 18 years (I'm 40 now), and don't have one wrinkle or grey hair or anything. Most people think I'm in my mid to late 20's. I've always been a little obsessed with staying young and I figured ginkgo biloba, with its great safety profile, UNIQUE ginkgobilides, species longevity (oldest living species currently on the planet), and regeneration from Nagasaki/Hiroshima ground zero blasts... it's always been a no-brainer for me. It's not like I've lived like a saint either. I'm completely sold on it.

 

But I've always combined other anti-ox supplements in combination with ginkgo. Hours-long steeped green tea at night daily (nowadays yerbe mate or hawthorne berry tea) and others anti-ox compliments. Nowadays, my routine is consistent:

 

Morning

- Tumeric + olive oil + 2 big pinches of ground pepper: 2-4 teapsoons

- 1 capsule standardlized gotu kola (or before bed if I forget in the morning)

- 500mg niacin (NA)

 

Afternoon

- 15-20 drops ginkgo biloba tincture

- 500mg niacin (NA)

 

Night (around bedtime)

- Tumeric + olive oil + 2 big pinches of ground pepper: 2-4 teapsoons

- 500mg niacin

- possibly a second gotu kola or ginkgo tincture (15-20 drops)

- Hawthorne berry/yerbe mate/red clover tea

 

 

I used to take ginkgo 3 times daily but cut back since adding the tumeric (anticoagulant). The Niacin has been recent addition (about 2 1/2 months), and the motivation was to help depression symptoms. It has been my godsend in normalizing my overactive mind and making me feel truly 'normal'. The fact that it eliminated my headaches & allergies completely, AND is one of the few truly beneficial anti-aging supplements (complementing my regimen), I'll be taking it forever.

 

Here are some References as requested:

 

Ginkgo biloba extract EGb761 protects against aging-associated mitochondrial dysfunction in platelets and hippocampi of SAMP8 mice. (2010)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/20459350

 

Effect of the antioxidant action of Ginkgo biloba extract (EGb 761) on aging and oxidative stress (1997)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3455891/

 

NEWLY DISCOVERED Anti-Aging Effects of GINKGO BILOBA (article with 20 scientific references)

http://www.encogniti...NKGO BILOBA.pdf

 

 

Tumeric

Lifespan Extension by the Antioxidant Curcumin in Drosophila Melanogaster (2006 - fruitflies)

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3614642/

 

Effects of the antioxidant turmeric on lipoprotein peroxides: Implications for the prevention of atherosclerosis

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3455890/

 

14 Science backed Health Benefits of Tumeric (Heavily referenced article)

http://www.well-bein...meric-benefits/

 

 

Gotu Kola

Antioxidant and Cytotoxic Activities of Centella asiatica (L) Urb.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2769141/

 

 

Tons of discussions about Niacin increasing NAD+ and possible longevity attributes.

[Synaptik]

Too late to edit-in my favorite ginkgo reference of all, hence the additional post. This plant is amazingly hardy, disease resistant and, apparently, radiologically resistant also. 

 

http://kwanten.home....l/hiroshima.htm

Edited by Synaptik, 21 August 2016 - 08:22 PM.

[normalizing]

carcinogenicity and general toxicity by gingko http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3929544/

 

synaptik not sure which homopath taught you that a very resilient plant which ability to age well for a real long time with ability to tolerate extreme conditions like radiation is good for man to consume. some of the most toxic plants and fungi out there are exactly that, quite resilient amazing resistance to the elements hence why they can survive so well.

[Synaptik]

carcinogenicity and general toxicity by gingko http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3929544/

 

synaptik not sure which homopath taught you that a very resilient plant which ability to age well for a real long time with ability to tolerate extreme conditions like radiation is good for man to consume. some of the most toxic plants and fungi out there are exactly that, quite resilient amazing resistance to the elements hence why they can survive so well.

 

I'm just not buying this research... at all. There's a good rebuttal by Life Enhancements which explains why, so I'll post some of the main points of contention;

 

Exceeding Normal Human Doses by 55–108 Times!

Not surprisingly, the worst results were in the highest dose groups. For example, the two year study with rats found that 1,000 mg/kg of body weight found the greatest toxicity, with virtually no toxicity noted in the lowest doses tested. The human equivalent dose of the highest doses used in these studies would be just over 900 milligrams per pound of body weight, five times a week for 50–60 years (rats generally live 2–3 years).2 It should be noted that the most common dose used by humans (240 mg/70 kg [“average” human bodyweight]) is only a fraction of even the lowest dose tested (62.5 mg/kg in the 3-month rat study). The American Botanical Council confirmed that the doses given to the rodents were 55–108 times higher than the normal human levels of consumption of standardizedGBE!3,5

 

Not surprisingly, the worst results were in the highest dose groups. For example, the two year study with rats found that 1,000 mg/kg of body weight found the greatest toxicity, with virtually no toxicity noted in the lowest doses tested.

 

...the announcement and publicity given to this study comes from what is perhaps the most anti-supplement group anywhere, the Center for Science in the Public Interest.

 

procured by the Shanghai Xing Ling Science and Technology Pharmaceutical Company, Ltd.5 SC-GBE is known to have a different chemical profile from what is commonly considered the gold standard of GBEs—Willmar Schwabe Pharmaceutical Co.’s EGb 761

 

...regarding the discrepancy of SC-GBE to other standardized GBEs was the use of corn oil as the vehicle of administration in the NTP rat and mice studies. “NTP has long-used corn oil as a vehicle,” said Bill Gurley, PhD, a professor of pharmaceutical sciences at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences College of Pharmacy. “Several studies have shown that prolonged administration of corn oil can produce some unexpected toxicities. Botanical extracts are not consumed in conjunction with corn oil by humans on a chronic basis. This alone makes the study results applicable only to this group of [animals]. In general, corn oil can improve the oral bioavailability of many phytochemicals and thus may increase the toxicity and/or carcinogenicity of certain phytochemicals (e.g., ginkgolic acids).”

 

With it's well-established safety profile in dozens of studies, my conclusion is the same as the author's until more (and better) evidence comes to light:

Bottom line: I think the NTP “study” was just another fraudulent government-sponsored “take-out piece,” designed to discredit a time-honored natural supplement with a wide range of clinical uses. As for me, I’ll continue to take 240 mg of Ginkgo daily for its plethora of beneficial effects.

Ward Dean, M.D.

 

http://www.life-enha...kgo-biloba-safe

[normalizing]

well, its interesting you concentrated on that one study i posted in a quick search but ginkgo's toxicity has been discussed on this forum for years with no real good conclusion if its toxicity in actual normal doses is good or bad. you can try search for some of them or ill just have more time in the future to find shitload of urls out there to show its toxicity in rather normal doses. until then, im honestly not a huge fan boy to bother that much

 

btw this one was inteteresting to me enough to comment; corn oil can improve the oral bioavailability of many phytochemicals and thus may increase the toxicity and/or carcinogenicity of certain phytochemicals

 

HAH all oils not just corn can do this especially for most of the tocopherols and carotenes available in plants, i guess one not need absorb too much or its toxic? considering both tocopherols and carotenes have been linked to cancer, perhaps the people who developed it shouldnt have consumed it with oil. which is, contradictory, oil enhances absorption of vital nutrients from plants. i suppose you are not seeing where this is going?

Edited by normalizing, 22 August 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[Synaptik]

well, its interesting you concentrated on that one study i posted in a quick search but ginkgo's toxicity has been discussed on this forum for years with no real good conclusion if its toxicity in actual normal doses is good or bad. you can try search for some of them or ill just have more time in the future to find shitload of urls out there to show its toxicity in rather normal doses. until then, im honestly not a huge fan boy to bother that much

 

btw this one was inteteresting to me enough to comment; corn oil can improve the oral bioavailability of many phytochemicals and thus may increase the toxicity and/or carcinogenicity of certain phytochemicals

 

HAH all oils not just corn can do this especially for most of the tocopherols and carotenes available in plants, i guess one not need absorb too much or its toxic? considering both tocopherols and carotenes have been linked to cancer, perhaps the people who developed it shouldnt have consumed it with oil. which is, contradictory, oil enhances absorption of vital nutrients from plants. i suppose you are not seeing where this is going?

 

Yeah, I see where this is going. However, I just need more evidence before stopping taking something I've been using for 18 years. The corn oil thing is big because there's been studies about rats exploding with tumors eating a corn diet ALONE. Scientists suspected Monsanto's Round-Up to be a primary cause of this. http://www.gmo.news/...very-early.html

 

https://www.geneticl...aize-rat-study/

 

Was the corn oil used in this GMO? Was it laced with Round-Up (like much of the North American supply at least) Did they use organic corn, and if not, why not? 

 

Besides the massive unreasonable doses, this point alone is enough to debunk this study. 

[normalizing]

a lot of studies are done on massive doses never estimated the rat equals to human doses? its mega max. im talking about simple things, like fruit vegetable studies which people get easily hooked on as being good for them. check out green tea studies, massive doses translate to humans from rats YET it was discovered eventually green tea is highly toxic to the liver in extracted high doses SAME TYPES USED IN STUDIES TO SLOW DOWN CANCERS

[stefan_001]

 

well, its interesting you concentrated on that one study i posted in a quick search but ginkgo's toxicity has been discussed on this forum for years with no real good conclusion if its toxicity in actual normal doses is good or bad. you can try search for some of them or ill just have more time in the future to find shitload of urls out there to show its toxicity in rather normal doses. until then, im honestly not a huge fan boy to bother that much

 

btw this one was inteteresting to me enough to comment; corn oil can improve the oral bioavailability of many phytochemicals and thus may increase the toxicity and/or carcinogenicity of certain phytochemicals

 

HAH all oils not just corn can do this especially for most of the tocopherols and carotenes available in plants, i guess one not need absorb too much or its toxic? considering both tocopherols and carotenes have been linked to cancer, perhaps the people who developed it shouldnt have consumed it with oil. which is, contradictory, oil enhances absorption of vital nutrients from plants. i suppose you are not seeing where this is going?

 

Yeah, I see where this is going. However, I just need more evidence before stopping taking something I've been using for 18 years. The corn oil thing is big because there's been studies about rats exploding with tumors eating a corn diet ALONE. Scientists suspected Monsanto's Round-Up to be a primary cause of this. http://www.gmo.news/...very-early.html

 

https://www.geneticl...aize-rat-study/

 

Was the corn oil used in this GMO? Was it laced with Round-Up (like much of the North American supply at least) Did they use organic corn, and if not, why not? 

 

Besides the massive unreasonable doses, this point alone is enough to debunk this study. 

 

 

I dont believe that Ginko causes cancer. This one is just in and there are many similar results:

https://www.thieme-c.../s-0036-1587098

Ginkgo biloba impairs tumorigenic potential of malignant cells in the liver through deregulation of multiple molecular pathways

 

I always marvel at the selectivity of polyphenols.....a billion years of experimentation:
 Consistently, while EGb761 induced a significant reduction in both colony and sphere forming ability in hepatoma cells, the treatment caused no mentionable changes in untransformed cells. 

Edited by stefan_001, 22 August 2016 - 09:06 PM.

[Synaptik]

Great info thanks Stefan. This study was conducted on human hepatocellular carcinoma cells as well.

Edited by Synaptik, 22 August 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[normalizing]

this should be the philosophy of time, today it causes cancer, tomorrow it doesnt, next day it does again then it doesnt. you will see friends, you will see how life works

[sativa]

What are peoples opinions on less common supplements (such as indium, boron or colloidal gold) as having a role in health maintenance?

@normalizing, once enlightened, your ego will be subdued and properly integrated and no more will you needlessly defend your world view to others.

Edited by sativa, 22 August 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[aconita]

Too often we don't keep in due consideration what tradition teaches, yes, tradition doesn't sound very scientific, no double blind studies, no exact numbers and no holy Pub Med links...

 

But tradition is based on humans, not rats like most research, and has been going on for thousands of years, to not consider that science is really dumb in my view.

 

What all this has to do with this discussion about ginkgo?

 

Well, Chinese used ginkgo for ages as an antiaging and guess what?

 

Tea, yup, ginkgo leaves tea.

 

And so what?

 

Nothing, just that tea extracts just the hydrophilic compounds leaving the lipophilic ones alone, not exactly what happens supplementing it in oil or even as an extract in caps (if it is not an pure hydro extract, of course,...by the way: do you know what kind of extract is the one used in the study or in your supplement, for that matter?).

[normalizing]

my only question is this, why dont you keep supplementing high doses of green tea extracts, yes it causes cancer but also cures it in rat studies. keep trying it it tho as i need report

[normalizing]

What are peoples opinions on less common supplements (such as indium, boron or colloidal gold) as having a role in health maintenance?

@normalizing, once enlightened, your ego will be subdued and properly integrated and no more will you needlessly defend your world view to others.

 

ego sense is ego based i dunno what is ego

[Nate-2004]

I find it a little frustrating that some of these things are categorized as "supplements" and that it is always assumed by supplement skeptics and many in the medical establishment as well as the FDA that they're intended to treat a deficiency in something. Nobody has a quercetin deficiency. Taking extra niacin or in many of our cases, nicotinamide riboside, is not to treat an NR deficiency, or even a true niacin deficiency, but to boost NAD+.  I suppose it could be said that we're treating a NAD+ deficiency, but some of these could just as easily be classified as drugs. 

Edited by Nate-2004, 23 August 2016 - 04:53 AM.

[pamojja]

my only question is this, why dont you keep supplementing high doses of green tea extracts, yes it causes cancer but also cures it in rat studies. keep trying it it tho as i need report

 

You're speaking as though you would know it all already. And no additional report would change your steadfast hold view, that green tea extracts would cause cancer.

 

 

Some examples of individual risk by 1.000.000 exposed to is:

 

1 Supplements (vitamin/minerals)

8 Herbal remedies (ie. green tea)

 

42 Drowning in bathtub

348 Paracetamol poisoning

845 Food - acute causes

6.238 Benzodiazepene poisoning

15.383 Alcohol related

62.000 Adverse pharmaceutical drug reactions

293.000 Preventable medical interventions (acute Hospitals)

There is always the risk of cancer, in the end its the second most common medical  condition human die from. But that risk rises most likely very proportionally with above rankings in acute events.

 

Therefore, the out of proportion higher risks also in cancer with pharmceuticals - you recommend as the only effective - and negligible lower with herbal extracts, which you consider not effective at all.

 

 

ego sense is ego based i dunno what is ego

 

You're so full of it. No wonder.

[normalizing]

ah ok thanks. some chart made up by questionable source. not sure how anyone on earth, let alone GOD, can measure these things to the detail but whatever, have fun with your little chart. in my case, at least it had to be more colorful to pique my interest, bad design

Edited by normalizing, 23 August 2016 - 03:39 PM.

[pamojja]

.. at least it had to be more colorful to pique my interest, bad design

 

Don't think even a more colorful design would convince you. But here for your entertainment:

 

 

[normalizing]

about the ego, how to exist and not express

[pamojja]

about the ego, how to exist and not express

 

Though not formulated as a question but more as a statement..

 

Deep down you know the answer, a very painful answer asked from the situation you're in. Thats why you probably don't dare to place the question mark.

 

But I promise you, far from your situation away exists a whole universe solely existing and expressing itself in interdependent relations. For you now it would feel like ceasing to exist, so overwhelming. For more mystically oriented folks its pure bliss..

 

But maybe I'm wrong, and you're ready to take the leap?
 

[normalizing]

in absolute time what goes round comes around

[icedemon]

It should be noted that from Page 1 where it talks about dosages for humans, that the average mouse size used in the study was 33g. So the human dosage is actually smaller then if you used 20g.

Edited by icedemon, 25 August 2016 - 04:32 PM.

[Skyguy2005]

carcinogenicity and general toxicity by gingko http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3929544/

 

synaptik not sure which homopath taught you that a very resilient plant which ability to age well for a real long time with ability to tolerate extreme conditions like radiation is good for man to consume. some of the most toxic plants and fungi out there are exactly that, quite resilient amazing resistance to the elements hence why they can survive so well.

 

1. The highest dose reaches extremely high levels. That's probably close to the LD50 of something like e.g. green tea. 

2. Source is strange (CPSI is a bit shady). Why do such a study and not bother to use EGB761? Why are the concentrations of flovonoids like quercetin in the extract so weirdly high? See: 

 

1. http://www.sciencedi...00483X14002091 

Cross matching observations on toxicological and clinical data for the assessment of tolerability and safety of Ginkgo biloba leaf extract

2. http://www.sciencedi...44711313003619 

Reproductive and developmental toxicity of the Ginkgo bilobaspecial extract EGb 761^® in mice (Schwabe)

3. THE EU REPORT: http://www.ema.europ...WC500185244.pdf

 

Genotoxicity: a series of published and unpublished (Study Report: Salmonella typhimurium and Escherichia coli Reverse Mutation Assay with Ginkgo biloba leaf dry extract. Study Number 1278600, 2009. – available upon request) tests on mutagenicity (reverse mutation assays) and also on genotoxicity (micronucleus test, chromosome aberration test) remain unmentioned by the assessment report and the monograph. These tests could not detect mutagenic or genotoxic effects of Ginkgo biloba. Two publications are listed in ANNEX 1 (b). Carcinogenicity: a series of test systems have shown an anticarcinogenic and chemo-preventive activity of Ginkgo biloba. They remain unmentioned and are added to the listing attached (ANNEX 1 ©). Genotoxicity and carcinogenicity: the comments on positive effects of “Ginkgo biloba” are derived from an NTP report (NTP technical report 578, 2013). The results of this report are not of any relevance: The Ginkgo biloba extract used for the study is not conform to a pharmacopoeia or definition of an approved Ginkgo biloba. It contains several highly toxic compounds. First the content of alkylphenols including ginkgolic acid was more than double of the allowed (10.45ppm). Second several heavy metals were found, including antimony, arsenic, cadmium, lead, mercury, and molybdenum. Third pesticides could be detected, including carbendazim and 2-polyphenol (correction: 2-phenylphenol). Compounds of these 3 groups are well-known for neurotoxic, mutagenic and carcinogenic effects. In addition they influence fertility and have teratogenic effects. Each single impurity would be sufficient to disqualify a compound for the preparation of a medicinal product for the use in human or even animal. Of course toxicological investigations with substances containing one, two or all three compounds of this listing may confirm the toxic effects thereof, but they have to remain without implication for a herbal preparation like Ginkgo biloba according to the Pharm Eur. 

Edited by Skyguy2005, 27 August 2016 - 03:18 PM.