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Rosmarinic Acid Thread

rosmarinic acid age breakers

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#61 sthira

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 06:22 PM

Argan oil is good stuff. You might also try rooting around on the skin actives site. The lady in charge down there is a chemist and claims to stick to the science (retarded dermatology such as it is...)

Edited by sthira, 27 July 2016 - 06:51 PM.


#62 Nate-2004

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 06:39 PM

Argon oil is good stuff. You might also try rooting around on the skin actives site. The lady in charge down there is a chemist and claims to stick to the science (retarded dermatology such as it is...)

 

I'm looking on there now and see a couple of products containing collagen hydrolyzate, which I didn't think was absorbable through skin.

 

I also see it contains pterostilbene which is interesting, hadn't thought of that, though not sure what it would do topically but there's a patent for it and claims on message boards that it's good for specific skin conditions.  I wonder if it's lipophilic or hydrophilic.

 

Nothing for RA however. I want to see how this goes with eczema since that's a good gauge. I'm also applying it to my face but not really seeing anything just yet, it's only been a week. I'm also not sure how much a 6% RA extract gets absorbed with Argan oil.



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#63 sthira

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 06:47 PM

^^^ The answer is "no one knows" and "decades more research into the naked mole rat is required." I view anything we try (including "wear a hat," which is dermatology's finest moment in decades) as a self trial n=1.

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#64 aconita

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 09:18 PM

Just a thought, but rosemary is a very common herb and easy as cinch to grow into healthy fragrant sprigs. Could you pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol, then add it to hylauronic acid? It'd be a self experiment of course, wipe it on your left hand for a few months and see what happens...

 

A bit better but very easy would be to pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol and water (70% hydroalcoholic, 70% ethanol/30%water, vodka might do if where you live is difficult to get ethanol), leave it in a close container for at least 1 hour, 24 hours is better, 48 even better, in the dark might be safer if some compound is light sensitive (quite likely),  running the blender every now and then even better, leaving it running the whole time even better (but a bit annoying).

 

Strain with a fabric, something like a cheese cloth or any light cotton will do, squeeze well the cloth in order to get all the ethanol out, maybe strain again the ethanol with a coffee paper filter, place the ethanol in a wide container and let it evaporate until the desired consistency is reached, you'll easily get a semi-solid resin like compound.

 

That is a proper extraction not too far from what can be done professionally, it will contain not only rosmarinic acid but it is a good enough extract for sure, mix it with an oil of your choice in order to use it topically, DMSO will do too (if you don't dislike DMSO).   

 

Oil will be a better carrier for that since its lipophilic nature, hyaluronic acid gel is great but not so much for lipophilic compounds since it is a water base better suited for hydrophilic compounds.

 

It can be left a bit liquid in the evaporation process and used as it is, the ethanol content working as a carrier but I personally don't like that too much since alcohol tends to be not too friendly on the skin, anyway ethanol is not too bad and you might give it try if you wish.


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#65 normalizing

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 09:44 PM

actually methanol has always been the superior solvent compared to ethanol in extracting bioactive substances from herbs. i had a whole ncbi article saved somewhere on comparison of actives in herbs and their superior solvents. methanol was at the top and water, as expected, was at the bottom. kind of put me off back then from brewing teas from herbs anymore cuz i realized, what a waste.


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#66 aconita

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 10:06 PM

Methanol is slightly better than ethanol in extracting lipophilic compounds but is much more toxic, therefore in my opinion the benefit is not worth the damage.

 

When brewing teas from herbs you are looking for the hydrophilic compounds mainly and for those the method is very effective, traditionally what is brewed as a tea is just that, when looking for lipophilic compounds tradition points to brewing in milk (fat content) or fats or oils or just cooked with some of those or consumed along those, for example fresh curcuma jiuice is traditionally drunk mixed with milk as well as done with bacopa (both actives being lipophilic).

 

Don't be too quick to dismiss one method in favor of another just because is more efficient on paper, shooting a deer with a cannon is more efficient than with a gun but leaves you with no meat left to eat.

 

For every job its appropriate tool.


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#67 aconita

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 10:18 PM

I'm looking on there now and see a couple of products containing collagen hydrolyzate, which I didn't think was absorbable through skin.

 

Hydrolyzate collagen does permeate the skin barrier if it is hydrolyzate enough (low molecular weight) but that's not the point, collagen comes in many different variables and needs to get in the blood flow first and transformed in the appropriate kind for the job.

 

It is clearly evident that there is no point in using a topical route, oral is more direct and effective and to a certain degree less tied to the molecular weight, the amount deliverable is much greater too (consider that commonly suggested oral dosage is 10g/day, how would you ever achieve that much topically?) .


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#68 sthira

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 01:48 AM

Just a thought, but rosemary is a very common herb and easy as cinch to grow into healthy fragrant sprigs. Could you pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol, then add it to hylauronic acid? It'd be a self experiment of course, wipe it on your left hand for a few months and see what happens...

A bit better but very easy would be to pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol and water (70% hydroalcoholic, 70% ethanol/30%water, vodka might do if where you live is difficult to get ethanol), leave it in a close container for at least 1 hour, 24 hours is better, 48 even better, in the dark might be safer if some compound is light sensitive (quite likely), running the blender every now and then even better, leaving it running the whole time even better (but a bit annoying).

Strain with a fabric, something like a cheese cloth or any light cotton will do, squeeze well the cloth in order to get all the ethanol out, maybe strain again the ethanol with a coffee paper filter, place the ethanol in a wide container and let it evaporate until the desired consistency is reached, you'll easily get a semi-solid resin like compound.

That is a proper extraction not too far from what can be done professionally, it will contain not only rosmarinic acid but it is a good enough extract for sure, mix it with an oil of your choice in order to use it topically, DMSO will do too (if you don't dislike DMSO).

Oil will be a better carrier for that since its lipophilic nature, hyaluronic acid gel is great but not so much for lipophilic compounds since it is a water base better suited for hydrophilic compounds.

It can be left a bit liquid in the evaporation process and used as it is, the ethanol content working as a carrier but I personally don't like that too much since alcohol tends to be not too friendly on the skin, anyway ethanol is not too bad and you might give it try if you wish.

This is awesome! Seems like a way better idea than spending big money on some unknown Chinese powder of faith.

But remind me what the heck rubbing concocted rosemary onto your skin supposed to do for the health of your skin again?

#69 Nate-2004

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 02:58 AM

 

 

Just a thought, but rosemary is a very common herb and easy as cinch to grow into healthy fragrant sprigs. Could you pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol, then add it to hylauronic acid? It'd be a self experiment of course, wipe it on your left hand for a few months and see what happens...

A bit better but very easy would be to pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol and water (70% hydroalcoholic, 70% ethanol/30%water, vodka might do if where you live is difficult to get ethanol), leave it in a close container for at least 1 hour, 24 hours is better, 48 even better, in the dark might be safer if some compound is light sensitive (quite likely), running the blender every now and then even better, leaving it running the whole time even better (but a bit annoying).

Strain with a fabric, something like a cheese cloth or any light cotton will do, squeeze well the cloth in order to get all the ethanol out, maybe strain again the ethanol with a coffee paper filter, place the ethanol in a wide container and let it evaporate until the desired consistency is reached, you'll easily get a semi-solid resin like compound.

That is a proper extraction not too far from what can be done professionally, it will contain not only rosmarinic acid but it is a good enough extract for sure, mix it with an oil of your choice in order to use it topically, DMSO will do too (if you don't dislike DMSO).

Oil will be a better carrier for that since its lipophilic nature, hyaluronic acid gel is great but not so much for lipophilic compounds since it is a water base better suited for hydrophilic compounds.

It can be left a bit liquid in the evaporation process and used as it is, the ethanol content working as a carrier but I personally don't like that too much since alcohol tends to be not too friendly on the skin, anyway ethanol is not too bad and you might give it try if you wish.

This is awesome! Seems like a way better idea than spending big money on some unknown Chinese powder of faith.

But remind me what the heck rubbing concocted rosemary onto your skin supposed to do for the health of your skin again?

 

 

Yeah thanks for all this info Aconita.

 

Sthira see the first post in the thread, it's supposedly a better AGE breaker than ALT711. There are also studies I linked on its success with eczema (atopic dermatitis).



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#70 aconita

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 05:23 AM

This is awesome! Seems like a way better idea than spending big money on some unknown Chinese powder of faith.

 

Well, I did play quite a bit with such extractions and it is quite easy, the only issue is the cost of the ethanol which I can buy in any food store by the liter (it is used to home made herbal liquors) but is heavily taxed ending up to cost about 15$/l .

 

The best thing to overcome the problem would be to build a vacuum drier with a condenser in order to recycle the evaporate ethanol, not too difficult or expensive...actually I should make one. :)

 

By the way that is exactly how they do industrially (often followed by freeze drying in order to obtain perfectly dry powder). 

 

A bit more complex is if one wishes for a pure extract of a specific substance...but that makes sense for research when the goal is to identify the action mechanism of a single substance, for more practical scopes it usually not detrimental to have a larger spectrum of compounds, actually it will often be preferable.  

 

It is possible to leave the extraction process going for as much as 10 or even more days and repeat with new ethanol/water for 3 or even more times (usually 3 times) in order to extract every drop of actives...it is a matter of costs: if the herbal material is kind of expensive it might be worth to try to extract every single bit out of it, if it is cheap (as rosmarinus officinalis is) the cost of the ethanol may not make very economical to repeat the process 3 times and maybe is not worth wasting 10 days of time.

 

   



#71 Nate-2004

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 03:47 PM

 

This is awesome! Seems like a way better idea than spending big money on some unknown Chinese powder of faith.

 

Well, I did play quite a bit with such extractions and it is quite easy, the only issue is the cost of the ethanol which I can buy in any food store by the liter (it is used to home made herbal liquors) but is heavily taxed ending up to cost about 15$/l .

 

The best thing to overcome the problem would be to build a vacuum drier with a condenser in order to recycle the evaporate ethanol, not too difficult or expensive...actually I should make one. :)

 

By the way that is exactly how they do industrially (often followed by freeze drying in order to obtain perfectly dry powder). 

 

A bit more complex is if one wishes for a pure extract of a specific substance...but that makes sense for research when the goal is to identify the action mechanism of a single substance, for more practical scopes it usually not detrimental to have a larger spectrum of compounds, actually it will often be preferable.  

 

It is possible to leave the extraction process going for as much as 10 or even more days and repeat with new ethanol/water for 3 or even more times (usually 3 times) in order to extract every drop of actives...it is a matter of costs: if the herbal material is kind of expensive it might be worth to try to extract every single bit out of it, if it is cheap (as rosmarinus officinalis is) the cost of the ethanol may not make very economical to repeat the process 3 times and maybe is not worth wasting 10 days of time.

 

 

Here's the question I have about this. How pure can you get it with that process and how do you isolate the RA among all the other extracts and furthermore how do you test to verify the percentage purity and that it is what it is?  This article says DNA barcoding is not the best way.

 

Also, if I mix 2g of rosemary extract 6% RA with 30 ml of say Argan oil, it gets pretty clouded with the 2g of powder. If I filter it with something (cheesecloth?), how much of the active Rosmarinic Acid is left in the oil and how much gets filtered out? So far I haven't been filtering it, it's a little gritty but not terrible.


Edited by Nate-2004, 28 July 2016 - 04:19 PM.


#72 David Middlemiss

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 06:28 PM

 

 

 

Just a thought, but rosemary is a very common herb and easy as cinch to grow into healthy fragrant sprigs. Could you pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol, then add it to hylauronic acid? It'd be a self experiment of course, wipe it on your left hand for a few months and see what happens...

A bit better but very easy would be to pick a few handfuls, grind it up in your vitamix with some ethanol and water (70% hydroalcoholic, 70% ethanol/30%water, vodka might do if where you live is difficult to get ethanol), leave it in a close container for at least 1 hour, 24 hours is better, 48 even better, in the dark might be safer if some compound is light sensitive (quite likely), running the blender every now and then even better, leaving it running the whole time even better (but a bit annoying).

Strain with a fabric, something like a cheese cloth or any light cotton will do, squeeze well the cloth in order to get all the ethanol out, maybe strain again the ethanol with a coffee paper filter, place the ethanol in a wide container and let it evaporate until the desired consistency is reached, you'll easily get a semi-solid resin like compound.

That is a proper extraction not too far from what can be done professionally, it will contain not only rosmarinic acid but it is a good enough extract for sure, mix it with an oil of your choice in order to use it topically, DMSO will do too (if you don't dislike DMSO).

Oil will be a better carrier for that since its lipophilic nature, hyaluronic acid gel is great but not so much for lipophilic compounds since it is a water base better suited for hydrophilic compounds.

It can be left a bit liquid in the evaporation process and used as it is, the ethanol content working as a carrier but I personally don't like that too much since alcohol tends to be not too friendly on the skin, anyway ethanol is not too bad and you might give it try if you wish.

This is awesome! Seems like a way better idea than spending big money on some unknown Chinese powder of faith.

But remind me what the heck rubbing concocted rosemary onto your skin supposed to do for the health of your skin again?

 

 

Yeah thanks for all this info Aconita.

 

Sthira see the first post in the thread, it's supposedly a better AGE breaker than ALT711. There are also studies I linked on its success with eczema (atopic dermatitis).

 

Hi Guys sorry for just dropping in here,

Thats great news and really easy to do.

 

Any nutri bullet type items blenders or centrifugal juicers create lots of heat Which damages many organic compounds, for this reason Its best to use a slow masticating juicer/wheatgrass juicer , it literally squeezes the pure juice/oils/liquid from the leaves, the solid pulp deposited elsewhere, matstone do one but you can pick them up for peanuts nowadays, I juice many herbs then just mingle the juice and alcohol for extracts that are pretty potent and keep well, the coffee filter after ethanol infusion is a good idea also

 

Just as a side topic Rosemary is one of the easiest herbs to expand through cuttings, literally break off a branch around 6inches strip the leaves from around half way down the stem downto tip and plant out in compost 3 or 4 per 5inch pot, I plant them out wild once taken and have a good reserve of rosemary when needed?

 

 


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#73 David Middlemiss

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 08:13 PM

Just out of curiosity, Is it possible to use Bio Ethanol for extraction and consumption? I'm not fully sure what the process is to create it or if all are gels, I assume if there is no addition of gel it should be pretty safe, its meant to be plant based



#74 aconita

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Posted 28 July 2016 - 09:44 PM

Ethanol is alcohol made from vegetables (grains, fruits, tubers, etc...), it is "bio" by definition, in wine the alcohol is ethanol, in vodka is ethanol, etc...

 

Ethanol is safe for consumption within the limits of how safe is alcohol consumption, if you drink it you'll get drunk, if you overdose you might die.

 

Ethanol in gel is used as a fire starter since it is easier to handle (and you can't drink it), it is not suitable for extractions.

 

In some countries is not easy or possible for a private to buy pure ethanol since....you can drink it if you like it STRONG (99% alcohol).

 

In those cases vodka might be an alternative since it is ethanol and water, not in the ideal 70/30 ratio but it should do anyway, not optimal but OK.

 

How pure can you get it with that process and how do you isolate the RA among all the other extracts and furthermore how do you test to verify the percentage purity and that it is what it is?

 

In the extraction process you'll get all the lipophilic compounds and some of the hydrophilic too, in other words you separate the "green matter" from the actives, in this the process is quite efficient, the better the filtration process the purer.

 

If you aim for a very pure extraction the use of specific filters is recommended but sincerely for our scope I feel like it would be an overkill.

 

To isolate a specific compound, RA in our case, things gets a bit more tricky, probably a bit too complicate to achieve with simple home made devices and anyway requiring specific knowledge, likely involving the use of not so easy to get solvents, etc...

 

You might google "rosmarinus officinalis hydroalcoholic extraction" or "rosmarinic acid extraction" and get an idea but forget the easiness of just a blender and a cloth.

 

In order to check how pure the single compound is you need a HPLC (high-pressure liquid chromatography) which I doubt is something feasible at home made level and would be likely kind of tricky and expensive to get done by a laboratory, unless you have got friends with access to a university laboratory, of course. :)

 

Usually there are good reasons why there are quite a few components together, synergy being a main and little understood factor.

 

One thing is the scientist need to isolate a single component in order to study it, a whole different realm is what is desirable for practical applications (like smearing it on your face).

 

Notice how many others hydrophilic and lipophilic components of rosmarinus officinalis do possess very interesting proprieties and notice how we don't really know how they all interfere and work in synergy with each other. 

 

 

   


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#75 Nate-2004

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 04:11 AM

Super awesome info there, thanks! I always wondered how that was done.

 

So should I be filtering the extract after I mix it with a lipid base like Argan oil or should I just leave it in there? It never seems to mix completely as a suspension or solution though it does darken the color of the oil a bit.

 



#76 aconita

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 05:05 AM

The dry extract you got might not be so straightforward to completely dissolve in oil, it might need to be run in a blender or stirrer for a while or since it is 6% RA there might be hydrophilic components in it which don't dissolve in oil or impurities (vegetable matter).

 

The first step would be to know what the 94% which is not RA is.

 

Slightly heating the oil during the mixing might help too, below 40 Celsius no damage to any components should occur.

 

If the powder looks coarse or clumpy grinding it fine with a mortar and pestle might help too (or between two spoons).

 

Kind of grinding in a small amount of oil and later adding more oil might help too.

 

It might take time and stirring to fully dissolve.

 

Filtering the argan oil will get messy unless you use a vacuum filtering system, aim to avoid particles by dissolve as much as you can and leave alone in the oil what is left, it doesn't look nice but you don't have to sell it.

 

You have to try with small amounts some of the above suggestions and see what might work best, really.

 

 

 

 


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#77 Nate-2004

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Posted 29 July 2016 - 12:39 PM

Thanks aconita! Massive knowledge drop. I have a stirrer, wish I'd gotten the heated kind though. I did grind it with a mortar and pestle as I poured the oil in, it seemed to mix better that way but I didn't put it on a stirrer after. I need a good bottle to do that with. The eczema under my foot, as it is, looks better than it ever has in years. Like I said it may just be the argan oil, but it might be the rosemary extract as well. This is doing far, far better than the CereVe healing ointment that all dermatologists recommend. Dunno if I'll go into selling the stuff but I'll probably look into that.


Edited by Nate-2004, 29 July 2016 - 12:40 PM.


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#78 aconita

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Posted 30 July 2016 - 05:42 AM

I just started a new tread which is related to what we are discussing here, the article linked is long but easy and very interesting reading.

 

http://www.longecity...8514-ethosomes/



#79 Logic

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 03:53 PM

Ethanol is alcohol made from vegetables (grains, fruits, tubers, etc...), it is "bio" by definition, in wine the alcohol is ethanol, in vodka is ethanol, etc...

 

Ethanol is safe for consumption within the limits of how safe is alcohol consumption, if you drink it you'll get drunk, if you overdose you might die.

 

Ethanol in gel is used as a fire starter since it is easier to handle (and you can't drink it), it is not suitable for extractions.

 

In some countries is not easy or possible for a private to buy pure ethanol since....you can drink it if you like it STRONG (99% alcohol).

 

In those cases vodka might be an alternative since it is ethanol and water, not in the ideal 70/30 ratio but it should do anyway, not optimal but OK.

 

How pure can you get it with that process and how do you isolate the RA among all the other extracts and furthermore how do you test to verify the percentage purity and that it is what it is?

 

In the extraction process you'll get all the lipophilic compounds and some of the hydrophilic too, in other words you separate the "green matter" from the actives, in this the process is quite efficient, the better the filtration process the purer.

 

If you aim for a very pure extraction the use of specific filters is recommended but sincerely for our scope I feel like it would be an overkill.

 

To isolate a specific compound, RA in our case, things gets a bit more tricky, probably a bit too complicate to achieve with simple home made devices and anyway requiring specific knowledge, likely involving the use of not so easy to get solvents, etc...

 

You might google "rosmarinus officinalis hydroalcoholic extraction" or "rosmarinic acid extraction" and get an idea but forget the easiness of just a blender and a cloth.

 

In order to check how pure the single compound is you need a HPLC (high-pressure liquid chromatography) which I doubt is something feasible at home made level and would be likely kind of tricky and expensive to get done by a laboratory, unless you have got friends with access to a university laboratory, of course. :)

 

Usually there are good reasons why there are quite a few components together, synergy being a main and little understood factor.

 

One thing is the scientist need to isolate a single component in order to study it, a whole different realm is what is desirable for practical applications (like smearing it on your face).

 

Notice how many others hydrophilic and lipophilic components of rosmarinus officinalis do possess very interesting proprieties and notice how we don't really know how they all interfere and work in synergy with each other. 

 

 

If you guys are going to all that trouble, consider adding some blackberry and dill.  Check out posts 25, 29 etc here:

 

http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=560341

"...Quite surprisingly, Composition 1 containing both 1% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens demonstrated a synergistic improvement in skin elasticity. The combined effect was greater than the sum of the separate effects of even 2% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens alone. In fact, the improvement in elasticity for Composition 1 containing both 1% Rubus fruticosus and 1% Peucedanum graveolens was more than triple that of the sum of the separate effects of 2% Rubus fruticosus (Composition C) and 1% Peucedanum graveolens (Composition D). Furthermore, this surprising synergy held for both gross elasticity and net increase in elastic recovery."

 

Dont forget to send me some for the good advice! :)



#80 Junk Master

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 07:54 PM

Just curious Nate-2004, have you tried taking c60-OO orally?  That's the one "supplement I've used with the most obvious effect on my skin elasticity and tone.  I'd be very curious to see if it improved eczema!



#81 Nate-2004

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 08:01 PM

I have been doing the C60 every other week homemade from quality oil and the SES ground in and mixed in the dark 5 days for roughly 4 months now. I can't say for sure yet whether my skin has improved to any noticeable degree. There are also some doubts currently as to the methodology being used to mix it so I've scaled back till we get results from Ichor. I also tried mixing in the rosemary extract on the last batch I did, just to experiment. 

 

So far on the eczema on my foot, the difference I'm seeing is dramatic compared to any other ointment I've used prescription or otherwise. I'm wondering if I continue over a few more days if it will be permanently gone. We shall see but it's looking that way so far. It's been bad for years. Even if it isn't permanent then the argan oil + rosemary extract is a viable and effective treatment, but then I will have to make sure it isn't just the argan oil by itself. I meant to try that first but oh well.



#82 aconita

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Posted 02 August 2016 - 06:13 AM

Thanks for the link Logic!

 

I read the tread and I'll like to know if you did make your own dill and blackberry extracts.

 

In the tread one of the participants reported a failure in the dill extraction, it is possible to attribute the failure to the use of fresh whole plant dill (as it seems done), the use of the dry fruit is what seems to be best (In a preferred embodiment, the dill extract is an extract of the fruit of dill, preferably of Peucedanum graveolens.).

 

The solvent used has been vodka, therefore an hydroalcoholic extraction has been performed, it seems that Lys'lastin is a water extract (One particularly suitable dill extract is a “dill fruit,” 5%-10% in water, commercially available from BASF of Parsippany, N.J., as “Lys'lastin.).

 

A water extraction from dill dry fruit shouldn't be too difficult to perform, the trickier part the water evaporation stage which in my experience is much slower than the much more volatile alcohol, a vacuum evaporator would be probably useful in order to avoid long permanence in water of the extract which might invite molds development (which should be overcome adding a couple of drops of SSKI) and anyway in order to avoid waste of time.

 

Probably a suitable evaporator can be home made with a fridge compressor and a water cooled condenser, not too difficult to set up.

 

About the blackberry leaves extraction the patent suggest an hydroalcoholic solvent (ethanol/water) in a proportion 2:8 (2 parts by weight of ethanol mixed with 8 parts by weight of water) which is a bit different from the usual 70% (70 ethanol/30 water), it actually turns out to be a 20% solution (20 alcohol/80 water), Niner in his post suggest a 77% solution (Take 100ml of the grain alcohol and add 24 ml of water. This will result in a 77 wt% ethanol solution, the ideal extractant for blackberry leaf.) which is closer to what usually an hydroalcoholic solvent is.

 

A bit puzzling...

 

A 20% hydroalcoholic extraction targets mainly hydrophilic compounds (while a 70% solution targets lipophilic compounds mainly), I guess, if that is the case I would extract both dill fruits and blackberry leaves at the same time in the same solvent in order to save time and work.



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#83 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 04:11 AM

So I made more of the argan oil mix, this time crushing the rosemary extract with mortar and pestle as I pour the oil in. Eventually it mixes in pretty well. Then something weird happened when I tried stirring it on a magnetic stirrer for a few hours. A dark red resin formed at the bottom of the container, it was very difficult to remove, I had to scrape it off from the bottom of the glass. I assume this was the part that didn't get dissolved well into the oil.  I poured the oil through a cheesecloth (I don't have a vacuum filter) and nothing got filtered. The oil was a brick opaque color compared to the clear caramel color before mixing so I assume it was pretty well mixed, but that whole compact bit at the bottom of the glass has me confused. I'm guessing this was just excess but not sure why it did this.


Edited by Nate-2004, 05 August 2016 - 04:12 AM.


#84 aconita

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 09:09 AM

My knowledge on the theme is primitive but AFAIK...

 

When a component is placed in a solvent and after a while there are deposits forming on the bottom it means at least part of the component is not solute (particles in suspension are another sign).

 

It may be for several reasons, the solvent is not adequate (poor component solubility in that solvent), too much of the component in relation to the solvent (saturation), poor mixing technique (not stirring well enough, low temperature, component too coarse, etc..), the component is a compound (not a single substance) and some component of the compound doesn't solve well in the solvent.

 

I might suggest to warm up the oil in a double bath in order to improve both viscosity and solvent capability, this is as far you can go in the mixing process in order to optimize it, if still you get precipitate on the bottom the cause is likely elsewhere.

 

Get the dark red resin you got on the bottom and add more oil repeating the mixing process, preferably warming up the oil as above.

 

If it gets in solution the issue was saturation (too little oil or too much RA, as you like to put it), if that is the case a smart way to go is to add RA gradually till it starts to precipitate (it will take time but is worth), at that point you know how much RA can be solved by how much oil (you have to weight the oil carefully before starting).

 

If some solves but still there are deposits add more oil and repeat, if there is no way to solve all of it regardless the amount of oil it likely means some components are just not soluble in that oil.

 

If that is the case things starts to get a bit complicate.

 

Filtering oils is tricky, without a vacuum filter is better not to attempt it.

 

Probably it would be better to open a dedicated tread about extractions and compounds delivery since the topic is quite vast.

 

Anyway, assuming the extract you got is a hydroalcoholic it should solve completely in ethanol/water (likely 70/30), once done it should be possible to slowly add it while stirring (magnetic stirrer) to lecithin and than to oil.

 

Lecithin (surfactant) could be used as it is or better isolating a bit more phosphatidylcholine which can be done solving lecithin (granular soy lecithin, for example, but any lecithin should do) in ethanol, filter and add the ethanol/water with solved RA in it slowly and stirring, let evaporate and all the ethanol should be gone.

 

What is left is RA and phosphatidylcholine in a water solution, now add argan oil to this slowly while stirring, both warmed up, it MIGHT mix well (because phosphatidylcholine action as a surfactant oil and water can mix, well...at least should), it would be likely be not very stable but preparing small amounts might overcome the issue.

 

I never tried this, it should work in theory, not optimal but it should, at least to some degree, to make it working better you have to add chemicals of dubious health safety which I don't recommend. 

 

If it works bioavailability of RA should be greatly enhanced.   

 

If someone has a better understanding of the above process is warmly welcome to correct my clumsy attempt and to elucidate this very interesting topic (preferably keeping the procedure to a homemade level feasibility).  :)


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#85 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 03:29 PM

That is a load of information. This is sort of why I was trying to get hold of the 98% pure RA, so that there's less component to have to mix. If RA absorbs well with perillyl alcohol as you say, it should be lipophilic. The problem is that I think they were using 98% pure so it's hard to say what the other components of the extract are but I assume they're other parts of rosemary. 

 

Do you know where to get a double boiler small enough to do stuff like this? I really like the stirrer I have but it doesn't heat unfortunately. Those are more expensive.

 

Not sure I can get straight 100% ethanol around here in Philadelphia, the only thing is denatured ethanol which is acetone no? I suppose Vodka will do but hrm but then again I'm finding some 95% pure ethanol on ebay.

 

I wonder if argan oil is good enough, perhaps a better option would be MCT or coconut oil, but not sure about whether MCT is good for topical. Shea Butter might be the next best option but it'd be an emulsification no? Going to try the other steps you suggest before giving up on argan. Then again, everything could be fine, the part I want absorbed into the oil could very well be absorbed as much as possible.

 


Edited by Nate-2004, 05 August 2016 - 03:51 PM.

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#86 aconita

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 04:53 PM

Denatured ethanol is not acetone, acetone might have been mixed to it since denatured ethanol is ethanol mixed with other chemicals to form an undrinkable solution.

 

https://en.wikipedia...natured_alcohol

 

Vodka should do as an hydroalcoholic solvent since it is ethanol and water.

 

A double boiling is done by placing a suitable container with the compound to be heated inside a bigger container full of water placed on the stove.

 

In other words get a pot, fill it with water, place it on the stove, find a smaller container such as steel bowl or a small pot (glass might work but some glass can break if the water gets to boiling, any glass would do if water temperature is not going too high) .

 

This is my preferred method for brewing teas and decoctions since water inside the small pot never gets to 100 Celsius, it gets close but doesn't reach it (it never comes to boiling),  in your case temperature is better kept quite lower and care should be employed to monitor it never exceeds your limit (use a thermometer), up to 40 Celsius would be very unlikely any damage to the compound but mixing is going to be greatly enhanced, above that some component might get damaged even if it is probably unlikely up to about 80 Celsius.

 

I don't need to warn you about ethanol and open flames, do I? :)

 

If you follow the described procedure and place the heated container on the stirrer it should retain a decent temperature for a while.

 

MTC oils are not superior as solvents as coconut oil is unlikely to be superior to argan as a solvent, vegetal oils should be more or less all the same in that regard.   



#87 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 05:18 PM

I found full on ethanol 95% and even 99% on ebay so if I go that route I'll get it there.

 

As for the double boiling I have an actual double boiler for making melted spicy queso for chip dipping. It's way too big for 30ml or so of argan oil. I'm trying to figure out how I would suspend or float a much smaller container over boiling or heated water without having to hold or touch it. If you have any ideas let me know. I'll be trying this in the next batch, we'll see if this one continues to have a positive effect on my eczema. It's like it's almost gone but not quite and there seems to be a plateau at this point. Still not sure if the Rosemary Extract is the key ingredient there either.

 

Whenever I look at the bottom of that foot I notice that it's all purple as if there is some kind of blood circulation issue. Why just that foot I dunno. It's weird.


Edited by Nate-2004, 05 August 2016 - 05:20 PM.


#88 aconita

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 05:55 PM

Just let the small container float, no issue with that.

 

Or use less water to the pint the smaller container will touch the bottom of the bigger container for more stability.

 

If the aim is a temperature in the order of 40-50 Celsius there is no issue in grabbing the container with your hands when needed or just use pliers if it gets too hot to handle.

 

I have done a lot of mixing, stirring and handling with small containers in double boiling, always at full boiling temperatures, without any issue whatsoever, it is much easier than it sounds, really.

 

Do you have a medical diagnosis for your foot issue?

 

 



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#89 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 August 2016 - 06:38 PM

Embarrassingly enough I have yet to see a dermatologist about it, I need to make an appointment but it's mostly about running out of flex spending for the year and other priorities. My girlfriend is a doctor (pediatrician) and she said it could be just athlete's foot which would also be super embarrassing to find out I've been going a full 3 years with a case of athletes foot thinking it was eczema. She of course insists I see a dermatologist.  Interesting that athletes foot gets better with argan/rosemary.


Edited by Nate-2004, 05 August 2016 - 06:39 PM.


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#90 samstersam

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 12:47 PM

Whats a namebrand Rosmarinic Acid supplement that has the highest mg/dose?

 

I found a Solaray brand, which is reputable company of Rosemary extract containing in one capsule:

 

150mg of the leaf extract guaranteed to contain 30mg (20% rosmarinic acid), 25 mg (20%) dilerpenes and 11.25 (9%) carnosic acid.

It also contains 200mg of the just the leaf itself.

 

Has anyone found any higher concentration or dose of Rosmarinic Acid in a product?

And how much of rosmarinic acid should I be taking daily anyway to have efficacy? Solaray just says take one capsule as the dose.


Edited by samstersam, 12 August 2016 - 12:47 PM.

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