135 replies to this topic

[drmz]

What is the difference in bioavailability between Potassium-R-Lipoic Acid and R-ALA ?

[ajnast4r]

potassium-R-LA means the R-LA has been stabilized with a potasium salt. R-LA is very sensative to heat, and if its not stabilized one way or another it becomes gummy and unabsorbable even at room temperatures.

KRALA = potassium-R-LA

what you also want, is it to be time released... both GERONOVA and AOR make time release R-LA

[ajnast4r]

Is R-Lipoic acid as potassium-R-lipoate the same thing?

in laymens terms, yes it is.

Would it be adviced to store R-ALA in the fridge?

it would be advised not to buy R-ALA... the problem comes with where it was before you got it, theres where most of the damage gets done.

buy stable R-ALA..

[xanadu]

There is nothing wrong with most r-ala and I'll go so far to say there is nothing wrong with ordinary ala. You just need twice as much of it.

[ajnast4r]

There is nothing wrong with most r-ala and I'll go so far to say there is nothing wrong with ordinary ala. You just need twice as much of it.

incorrect

[xanadu]

OK, ajnast, if it's incorrect show us the proof. If most r-ala is no good, where are the coa's or research results showing that? If taking twice as much ala isn't as good as taking r-ala, explain why and give some evidence supporting your belief. It seems likely you will not be able to offer any such proof. It's nice to have beliefs but better if they are fact based. I only use fact based information. Unsupported beliefs are of no use to me when deciding on my health.

[ajnast4r]

OK, ajnast, if it's incorrect show us the proof. If most r-ala is no good, where are the coa's or research results showing that? If taking twice as much ala isn't as good as taking r-ala, explain why and give some evidence supporting your belief. It seems likely you will not be able to offer any such proof. It's nice to have beliefs but better if they are fact based. I only use fact based information. Unsupported beliefs are of no use to me when deciding on my health.

this has been covered extensively in this forum, use the search function... you can also give AOR, geronova, or give pete at relentless improvementa call.

unstabliized r-la starts to polymerize somewhere around 70F, and the R enantiomer is responsible for most of the health benefits of lipoic acid... the S enantiomer is simply a chemical byproduct.

http://www.geronova.com/poly.htm


http://www.geronova.com/beware.htm
http://www.geronova.com/rla-intro.htm

“Stability of Lipoic Acid”  (US Application 20040044046, March 4, 2004)

[0011] LA suffers from certain disadvantages, however. In particular, the natural form R-LA is unstable above 40° C., so it can degrade under some warehousing conditions. Also LA is hygroscopic. What is needed is stabilization of this natural form of LA with a natural salt.

Alpha-Lipoic Acid with Novel Modification. (US Patent 5,994,393 Nov 30, 1999 )

“The melting range of the pure enantiomers of thioctic acid (47-49° C) is lower compared to the racemic compound (58-61° C). In the production of solid galenic formulations, the use of pressure on the material is indispensable so that on the one hand a heating and on the other hand a melting of thioctic acid takes place. Concentrated solutions of thioctic acid or its melts polymerize immediately and can no longer be converted into a crystalline form by cooling.”

According to “Dosage Forms containing thioctic acid or solid salts of thioctic acid with improved release and bioavailability” ( US Patent 6,348,490) 

“In contrast with dosage forms prepared from free R-thioctic acid, the dosage forms prepared from salts of R-Thioctic acid have not only the advantage of better release and bioavailability of the active ingredient, but are moreover more easily produced.”

According to the article "Disulfide Polymers of DL-alpha-lipoic Acid" by Thomas and Reed (JACS 78, 6148 (1956)
“The ease with which ALA polymerizes has been noted. The several lipoic acids described in this paper polymerized to various extents during their distillation and recrystallisation. The liquid esters of lipoic acid polymerized with extreme ease”.

[xanadu]

Granted that if stored at high temps it will degrade. That does not back up your statement that most ala or r-ala is no good. You are assuming it's kept at high temps for a long time. You also have not shown any evidence that ordinary ala is not good. All you have shown is that it's a good idea to keep it in a cool place. If someone didn't have a fridge and was force to store their supplements in the heat, they should get krala.

[ajnast4r]

Granted that if stored at high temps it will degrade. That does not back up your statement that most ala or r-ala is no good. You are assuming it's kept at high temps for a long time. You also have not shown any evidence that ordinary ala is not good. All you have shown is that it's a good idea to keep it in a cool place. If someone didn't have a fridge and was force to store their supplements in the heat, they should get krala.

ALL regluar r-ala polymerizes at 70F, which is not high temp... thats a little above room temperature. and most of the problem is not where you store it, but the temps on UPS/FEDEX trucks and warehouses that it was stored in, most of which are not airconditioned.


most of the health benefits of ALA come from the R half, not the S half... the S half actually can have some undesirable effects. they go into detail about this here: http://www.geronova.com/rla-intro.htm

the S half is a byproduct, and nothing more...i personally prefer not to ingest waste.

R-Lipoic acid was found to be more bioavailable than S-lipoic acid when taken orally in a human study. (2a)


R-Lipoic Acid was more effective than the S form in a battery of metal chelation tests. One hypothesis of the cause of diabetic complications involves overloading by transition metals which could explain the stereospecific effect of the R-form. (4)


R-Lipoic acid was more effective than racemic alpha-lipoic acid and S -alpha-lipoic acid in preventing cataracts in rats. (5b).

S-Lipoic acid produces different biological actions than R-Lipoic Acid that may be undesirable. (16-22)

S-Lipoic acid is metabolized in the outer cell membrane or cytoplasm. This may   interfere with R-Lipoic Acid's ability to penetrate the inner mitochondrial membrane , thus limiting energy production.

At high concentrations, S-Lipoic acid inhibits mitochondria metabolism.   (7) 

S-Lipoic acid cannot bind with critical mitochondrial enzymes and inhibits ATP production. (16)

S-Lipoic acid is less effective than R-Lipoic Acid as an antioxidant. (16)

[xanadu]

Lets look at your statement that "ALL regluar r-ala polymerizes at 70F" If that's true, then you certainly are correct. However, I have yet to see any proof of that. Now lets take a look at the material you posted from the US Application 20040044046

"LA suffers from certain disadvantages, however. In particular, the natural form R-LA is unstable above 40° C., so it can degrade under some warehousing conditions."

Now according to my math, 40c is about 104f. It doesn't say it all polymerizes at that temp, it says it's "unstable" above that temp. According to you, all of it will degrade if it even reaches 70f but in the material you posted to back up your assertion, it says something different. I am still open to the possibility that you are correct. I just haven't seen any proof of it yet. Fedex trucks don't get that hot.

Also, just because r ala is absorbed better than s ala does not mean pure r ala is worth a lot more money than ordinary ala which has a mix of the two. I'd like to see some evidence that s ala is bad for you. I mean besides your belief.

[ajnast4r]

Lets look at your statement that "ALL regluar r-ala polymerizes at 70F" If that's true, then you certainly are correct. However, I have yet to see any proof of that. Now lets take a look at the material you posted from the US Application 20040044046

"LA suffers from certain disadvantages, however. In particular, the natural form R-LA is unstable above 40° C., so it can degrade under some warehousing conditions."

call AOR or GERONOVA and ask... polymerization BEGINS around 70F i BELIEVE, so this is when you start to lose bioavailability. i could be wrong but i dont think so.

Fedex trucks don't get that hot.

i work at a supplement store, i get atleast 10 ups/fed ex deliveries every week. in the summer, those trucks can hit 90-100 degrees... our ups driver keeps a thermometer in there, and its often read 90+ during the hotter summer months. boxes OFTEN come in HOT to the touch, not warm... HOT

Also, just because r ala is absorbed better than s ala does not mean pure r ala is worth a lot more money than ordinary ala which has a mix of the two. I'd like to see some evidence that s ala is bad for you. I mean besides your belief.

dood, you need to read what i just posted from the geronova site... it talks about how SLA is bad.

[kerastasey]

from the posts I've read so far, xanadu seemed like someone who knew what he was talking about.

So I'm amazed at this kind of priggishness:

OK, ajnast, if it's incorrect show us the proof. If most r-ala is no good, where are the coa's or research results showing that? If taking twice as much ala isn't as good as taking r-ala, explain why and give some evidence supporting your belief. It seems likely you will not be able to offer any such proof. It's nice to have beliefs but better if they are fact based. I only use fact based information. Unsupported beliefs are of no use to me when deciding on my health.

As typical of someone like him, despite asking for them, he has not addressed/ignored ajnast4r's references immediately above your post regarding the possible harm of S-lipoic.

xanadu- Read the last line of your last post. Read the references just above it.
It looks like it's you who's putting your believe above the evidence.


Besides, heat may be the secondary consideration.
Polymerisation of unstabilised R-lipoic acid occurs readily due to the pH conditions of the stomach (pH 2-4). You can confirm for yourself with a bit of vinegar (pH 2-3).
Try it - best evidence you'll get. Do you really want that unabsorbable yellow gue in your intestines?

[xanadu]

kerastasey, what you seem to fail to realise is that making a statement and giving a website saying "go look it up for yourself" does not prove anything. I'm still waiting for some proof, any proof at all. I have never said I was convinced of any position, I merely have not seen the evidence to back up the assertions made. If there is proof on one of those websites then ajnast can copy the proof and give the link to back it up. All I've seen out of you is sarcasm. Sorry, but that doesn't prove it either.

aj, the statement you posted yourself says it only begins to break down at temps above 104. This is from the patent application you quoted from. You seem to be running away from it now. You take the statement by someone selling a competing product as proof. How many times have we gone into a vitamin shop and heard the propriator say all his competitors stuff was junk? I've seen that many times. Even if they never heard of the company they will tell you it's junk. You say the ups driver tells you it gets over 90 in there in the summer. That still is less than 104.

[ajnast4r]

kerastasey, what you seem to fail to realise is that making a statement and giving a website saying "go look it up for yourself" does not prove anything. I'm still waiting for some proof, any proof at all. I have never said I was convinced of any position, I merely have not seen the evidence to back up the assertions made. If there is proof on one of those websites then ajnast can copy the proof and give the link to back it up. All I've seen out of you is sarcasm. Sorry, but that doesn't prove it either.

aj, the statement you posted yourself says it only begins to break down at temps above 104. This is from the patent application you quoted from. You seem to be running away from it now. You take the statement by someone selling a competing product as proof. How many times have we gone into a vitamin shop and heard the propriator say all his competitors stuff was junk? I've seen that many times. Even if they never heard of the company they will tell you it's junk. You say the ups driver tells you it gets over 90 in there in the summer. That still is less than 104.

im done with you, and this converstion. you obviously didnt read what i gave you to read, nor did you search the forums... i think you have little interest in the truth and just want to argue.

have a good one [thumb]

[xanadu]

ajnast, you are consistent if nothing else. You were unable to show any evidence of what you said beyond a statement from a vendor knocking his competitor's product. You gave links to websites and said go look around. Obviously you couldn't find any proof there yourself or you would have brought it back. Some of the material you presented showed you were wrong. Naturally, once that was pointed out, you refused to discuss it further. Now you are "done" with me. I guess that's easier than to admit you couldn't come up with any proof.

I see mr sarcasm could come up with no evidence either. We are expected to believe things based on faith and because someone said so. Sorry if I'm a stick in the mud by asking for proof when it comes to my health. I will not stop looking for proof any more than aj will stop taking everything on faith with no proof needed. If someone can come up with scientific proof or even strong evidence then I will be glad to change my mind and agree they are right. I thought that was the way we were supposed to find out the truth?

[ajnast4r]

im so weak...


if you would have opened the pages and looked, you would have seen that geronova isnt simply 'some company'... they are at the forefront of lipoics and all the information on their site is cited by clinical studies, any of which you can find on pubmed if you invest just the slightest amount of effort. sorry, but im just not gonna do all the work for you.

you obviously have NO idea what your talking about and i love how you keep saying i couldnt come up with proof blah blah blah, and you didnt even read through the proof i gave you!

stop being so god damn arguementative and just READ THE SITE AND CITED STUDIES... ITS NOT THAT HARD

[xanadu]

I see all kinds of contradictory information. If you can't even sum up why krala is supposed to be the only good kind, maybe you weren't able to pin it down either? Your info said that r-ala started to break down at 104f. You now refuse to discuss that any further. That contradicts your statement that it all breaks down at 70f. See what I mean by contradictory info?

[ajnast4r]

I see all kinds of contradictory information. If you can't even sum up why krala is supposed to be the only good kind, maybe you weren't able to pin it down either? Your info said that r-ala started to break down at 104f. You now refuse to discuss that any further. That contradicts your statement that it all breaks down at 70f. See what I mean by contradictory info?

i said this about 5 posts up:

call AOR or GERONOVA and ask... polymerization BEGINS around 70F i BELIEVE, so this is when you start to lose bioavailability. i could be wrong but i dont think so.

search these forums for AORsupports posts.. he's a guy who used to work for AOR. its not my job to do the work FOR you.

and even if i AM wrong about the polymizeration temp of rla, which i dont think i am... you still have to worry about it polymerizing in your stomach acid... so no matter what a stable RLA is desirable.

and hopefully we are passed the point of understanding that plain ala is not good for you.

[rfarris]

we are passed the point of understanding that plain ala is not good for you.

Didn't you mean "ala is not as good for you as stabilized r-ala?"

[Paul Idol]

Didn't you mean "ala is not as good for you as stabilized r-ala?"

Depends whom you ask, doesn't it? There seem to be legitimate arguments that s-ala might actually cause some problems.

[xanadu]

I haven't seen the info showing that s ala is bad. There was a quote saying it may be bad but lots of things may be. I'd like something stronger than a maybe. If we avoided all things that might possible be bad for us, we'd eat no food and drink no water. I'm still searching for solid info.

[ajnast4r]

I haven't seen the info showing that s ala is bad. There was a quote saying it may be bad but lots of things may be. I'd like something stronger than a maybe. If we avoided all things that might possible be bad for us, we'd eat no food and drink no water. I'm still searching for solid info.

again ^50

read the cited studies in the link i gave you!

[xanadu]

Once again aj says go look around and it must be out there somewhere. You are the one who made the claim about ordinary ala or rala being no good. The one who makes the claim has to give proof. Saying go look around is not giving proof. I already looked around and found no such proof. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just haven't seen it.

[psychenaut]

Anybody that wants to argue the benefits of S-lipoic acid must present peer researched studies that show s-lipoic to be preferred and beneficial in humans.

Anybody with the desire to seek the benefits of r-lipoic need not go very far. The studies are easily found. Indeed, one would have to have some sort of pathological aversion to finding them if they wanted to argue otherwise. The same with the polymerization issue.

What if we ignore the protestations of anonymous posters on internet forums, and instead look at the research of Dr. Tory Hagen, Dr. Benjamin Treadwell, Dr. Bruce Ames and Dr. Lester Packer. Regarding polymerization, to quote from Dr. Treadwell on the Juvenon website:

"The problem with the R form once isolated from the S is that it is unstable and tends to form polymerization products. This is why virtually all the clinical studies performed in humans over several decades use the racemic mixture (50:50 mix of the R+/S isomers)."

How much clearer can it be? Anybody that would choose to argue the polyrmerization issue must now place into public view their references. Otherwise, they risk coming across as simply having some sort of vested interest in sales of ALA. We know where my interests are, and Geronova's and Juvenon's and those that have published peer-reviewed papers.

We do not know who anonymous posters are, what conflicts of interest they may have, or their credentials (if any?) and therefore the credibility of their claims and comments must be called into question. One of the reasons I have reduced my posting here is that there is no accountability and identification of who some posters are. The discourse tends to be much higher quality when there is personal accountability.

Anybody wishing to argue these issues further, must now make themselves public and supply their credentials and references.

The Juvenon.com site by the way is an incredible resource for anybody seeking another source of lipoic and ALCAR information. As does GeroNova and Relentless Improvement, it links to peer reviewed research.

On a personal note, I have seen the raw r-lipoic powder that GeroNova uses to make their stabilized lipoic from. There is what looks like a tire carcass surrounding the raw material. It is polymerized material. I will take some pics and post them in the next few weeks. Did you see the polymerized pic on my blog?

And if you want to keep taking ALA - please, do so! I am not out to change the world, and could care less if somebody chooses not to avail themselves of the research. What some people fail to understand it the difference between communicating facts and selling something. I am not out to sell anybody anything. If after review of the information, you choose to make a purchase from RelentlessImprovement.com I will give you a great purchase experience.


Cheers,
Pete

[xanadu]

"The problem with the R form once isolated from the S is that it is unstable and tends to form polymerization products. This is why virtually all the clinical studies performed in humans over several decades use the racemic mixture (50:50 mix of the R+/S isomers)."

That would seem to indicate that the problem lies in separating the r form from the mixed form. I still see no proof of the statement that r ala degrades at 70f versus the 104f as indicated in the patent application aj posted. If Geranova's r ala has a tire around it from polymerization, what temps did they keep it at? If they know what they are doing, why did they let that happen? Just asking questions, that's all.

Nice little rant against anon posters. However, it does not make the tough questions go away. I give you enough credibility that I would probably not buy the r-ala and would stick with the regular mixed ala. What I would like to see is one vendor come forward and say this who does not have a "vested interest" in knocking his competitors product. Not saying you would lie or anything, just pointing out that you do have a vested interest. I never said s-ala was wonderful or that it was better than r-ala or mixed ala. I simply asked to see the proof. If it is established that only krala is any good, then I would buy that from now on. I just want to see the proof.

"I am not out to sell anybody anything."

No?

[rfarris]

There seem to be legitimate arguments that s-ala might actually cause some problems.

As near as I understand, the main problem with S-ALA is that it clogs up the receptors needed for R-ALA. Essentially, half of your ALA does nothing, and the other half (R-ALA) may be absorbed less efficently. But the R-ALA that you *do* absorb is still heathful...

Personally, I've completely shifted over to R-ALA (GeroNova), but if I had some regular ALA I wouldn't throw it down the sink...

[ajnast4r]

Indeed, one would have to have some sort of pathological aversion to finding them if they wanted to argue otherwise. The same with the polymerization issue.

pete you hit that one on the nose...

[rhdrury]

Quote Xanadu:
kerastasey, what you seem to fail to realise is that making a statement and giving a website saying "go look it up for yourself" does not prove anything. I'm still waiting for some proof, any proof at all. I have never said I was convinced of any position, I merely have not seen the evidence to back up the assertions made. If there is proof on one of those websites then ajnast can copy the proof and give the link to back it up. All I've seen out of you is sarcasm. Sorry, but that doesn't prove it either.

There is no positive proof in science. Science can prove hypotheses false, but not prove that one is true - just so likely to be true that arguing against it wastes everyone's time.

Besides, perhaps you could tell us what would constitute 'proof' for you, on top of the links to scientific studies you've been given?
Until you can do so, asserting that you haven't been given it would be a weak arguement.

Quote Xanadu:
Once again aj says go look around and it must be out there somewhere. You are the one who made the claim about ordinary ala or rala being no good. The one who makes the claim has to give proof. Saying go look around is not giving proof. I already looked around and found no such proof.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just haven't seen it.

I think this guy's snorted too much pyritinol or something.

A hypothesis needs no evidence to be made, and cannot be rejected until evidence proves it false.
A claim needs evidence (basis - such as lots of links to lots of studies) - not proof. Those who don't support it on the strength of the evidence (you) should give evidence against the claim (such as one link to an opposing study).
Basic philosophy of science.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. That's why stupid (= irrational) people who fail to appreciate the distinction say the stupidest things of all like - 'I'm an atheist - there's no scientific evidence for the existence of God'.


And I think Kerastasey's right - it's stomach acid polymerisation that's likely to be the biggest problem with ingesting unstabilised RLA.
Why doesn't the quote system work properly any more?

Edited by rhdrury, 24 January 2006 - 01:04 PM.