135 replies to this topic

[xanadu]

OK, I looked at the aor link and here is what is says:

"R(+) SR is the natural form of this vital antioxidant. It is the sole form produced in the body for use in the mitochondria. All lipoic acids including conventional “lipoic acid” or “alpha lipoic acid” supplements are only 50% R(+)-lipoic acid; the other half of such supplements is the artificial S(-)-enantiomer. The one feature limiting all lipoic acids is the extremely short plasma half life of around 22 minutes. R(+) SR is specially formulated with a more bioavailable salt form than the conventional “alpha lipoic acid” or R+ Lipoic acid and is more stable to heat and moisture making it more resistant to polymerization. "

It says "all lipoic acids" have a short plasma half life, that would seem to include kr-ala and stabilised r-ala. They say theirs is more stable to breaking down. Nowhere have I found any evidence that r-ala breaks down at 70f. It's odd that no one can provide a link to any established studies showing that or showing that you don't get benefit from ordinary ala. I've gotten a lot of sarcasm, insults and inuendo but still nothing to prove the basic contentions which seem to be that ala is no good and you must only use kr-ala. I'm not quoting anyone, that just seems to be what most people are saying. If it's so well known then why is it everyone takes it on faith and no one has any proof?

The quotes that indicated s-ala "may" be bad for you, were they from studies on regular ala with 50% r/s? Or were they tests on high dose s-ala only? It makes a difference. High dose s-ala results may not indicate much about normal dose mixed ala. That's why I wanted to see the studies and results to find the details.

OK, everyone is done with me and will no longer give a reply. No problem. However, I leave as I came in, with no proof of any of it. Odd that this is such an established fact but no one can provide anything but anecdotes.

[kevink]

Seriously - you're doing some social experiment in patience right? Seriously?

Again you twist and misquote...

It says "all lipoic acids" have a short plasma half life, that would seem to include kr-ala and stabilised r-ala.

If you did you're homework you'd know the common knowledge that MCT and AOR's SR are SUSTAINED RELEASE products. Especially since that's already been pointed out to you.

Nowhere have I found any evidence that r-ala breaks down at 70f.

ajnast4r misquoted 70f instead of 70c and corrected himself on PAGE 1. Get over it already. It's 70c not 70f. Do you understand NONE of that makes ANY difference because the bioavailability of unstabilized r-ala is horrible. That point was made to you on PAGE 1 as well.

It's odd that no one can provide a link to any established studies showing that or showing that you don't get benefit from ordinary ala.

NOBODY HAS SAID THAT (as far as I recall). What has been said is that it's better than nothing, but given a choice it's the last choice. Unstabilized R-ALA is the next to last choice, unless you're a diabetic in which case the two are reversed. In a healthy young person, the negative impact of S in ALA on your body process is enough to rank a "pass" in the majority of cases. (Please don't ask why again - you've been told 100 times already).

I've gotten a lot of sarcasm, insults and inuendo but still nothing to prove the basic contentions which seem to be that ala is no good and you must only use kr-ala.

If it's so well known then why is it everyone takes it on faith and no one has any proof?

Nobody I respect on this board is taking it on faith at all. They can simply read for themselves. Ames himself says the S-ALA portion of ALA should be ditched. Go read. I hate to invoke the LM thing because he's only human and not the last word on ALL things, but he sure does his homework and knows his stuff - Are you saying that LifeMirage is working on faith????

That's why I wanted to see the studies and results to find the details.

xanadu, I haven't seen any indication in this thread that you'd be able to interpret study data. What you really want is for experts to interpret the data and prevailing wisdom for you. As was already suggested to you...email Geronova.

The quotes that indicated s-ala "may" be bad for you, were they from studies on regular ala with 50% r/s?

It's not "may", it does have bad results as I've already pointed out to you (insulin and otherwise). Obviously you have to isolate the compound to determine the result. Again, better minds than mine have figured all this out...go read and stop asking other people to do your leg work for you.

There's a reason you're the only person with questions at this point. Especially since ajnast4r gave you more than enough info on PAGE 1! Something I failed to notice until now. If I had seen that, I wouldn't have repeated much of what he already said.

ajnast4r summed this thread up on the first page of this 4 page mess when he said...
stop being so *** damn argumentative and just READ THE SITE AND CITED STUDIES... ITS NOT THAT HARD

[xanadu]

kevink wrote:

>If you did you're homework you'd know the common knowledge that MCT and AOR's SR are SUSTAINED RELEASE products.

So are you saying that only SR r-ala is any good? Before, I was told only kr-ala was any good because ordinary r-ala broke down at room temps. Now you tell me it's 70c which is hot.

>ajnast4r misquoted 70f instead of 70c and corrected himself on PAGE 1.

He must have snuck back and quietly edited his post because I saw nothing mentioned later about that correction.

Let me get the story straight. It's no longer the breaking down at room temps that is the problem, it's because it must be sustained release before it's any good. Does everyone agree that is the situation? But pete told us the story about r-ala turning into rubber, apparently at room temps. Are you telling me pete has it all wrong? Pete, and others indicate it breaks down at room temps and that's why one must buy kr-ala and nothing else is worth a damn. Now you tell me it's almost flameproof (paraphrase, not a quote) and doesn't break down until 70c or about 158f. That right there shows a bit of a discrepancy between experts in the field. You told me your info is based on experts and what everybody knows.

So is the problem that it breaks down at room temps or is the problem that only sustained release is any good?

Speaking of s-ala:

>It's not "may", it (s-ala) does have bad results as I've already pointed out to you (insulin and otherwise).

Not that I would question your word, I'm sure you heard that somewhere, but are there any studies that show this that you have a link to? Was it using normal dose s-ala, normal dose mixed ala or was it with huge doses of pure s-ala? It makes a difference.

[ajnast4r]

>ajnast4r misquoted 70f instead of 70c and corrected himself on PAGE 1.

i did no such thing...

[eternaltraveler]

I would also like to see some specific studies showing that the S form is specifically harmful. I've seen speculation into reasons why it may be harmful. Logical speculation; however I haven't seen any specific studies to that effect. I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread as I'm pressed for time so if those studies have already been posted I would appreciate a point to them.

thanks

[mark_shewmaker]

Elrond wrote:

I would also like to see some specific studies showing that the S form is specifically harmful. I've seen speculation into reasons why it may be harmful. Logical speculation; however I haven't seen any specific studies to that effect.

Gerenova's pages on [RS]-ALA cover about every question about [RS]-ALA mentioned within the thread.

However, if you are looking for the claims of S form being specifically harmful, there are pointers to studies that would lead you to expect that this would be the case in humans under the section headed "ABOUT S-LIPOIC ACID" at http://www.geronova.com/rla-intro.htm .
Elrond wrote:

I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread as I'm pressed for time so if those studies have already been posted I would appreciate a point to them.

It's not as time-consuming as it might appear from glancing through a seemingly argument-filled thread.

Anyone who reads through this thread with a willingness to actually follow the links and truly read and mentally process what's in front of him without being spoon-fed the referenced material piece-by-piece, a willingness to honestly examine data given to him and make conclusions without regard to any personal stakes in the matter that might make a positive, negative, or inconclusive answer more personally satisfying, and a willingness to actually listen to those who have worked with [RS]-ALA directly and have real experience on the industrial processing and similar issues, will find all the issues and questions about [RS]-ALA brought up here to be answered pretty well.

(They may not be perfectly and 100% answered. For instance, I don't have charts of rates of destabalization of racemic ALA and unstabalized R-ALA as functions of temperature, moisture level, types of filler, etc. But I have more than enough information to make personal conclusions for myself: Upon learning that unstabilized R-ALA polymerizes extensively upon hitting stomach acid even whether or not it's had time to polymerize on the shelf, and that even off-the-shelf racemic ALA has polymerization as mentioned at http://www.geronova.com/poly.htm , I quickly concluded that I wanted to set aside my racemic ALA--probably just to throw it away--and take the stabilized, time-release R-ALA--though in my case I add additional spikey KR-ALA from the LEF MEO product on top of the more stable time-release curve that the stabalized R-ALA provides.)

However, if you're looking for other pointers to this information within this thread:

On the very first page of this thread, ajnast4r pointed to the gerenova rla-intro page at http://www.imminst.o...amp;#entry89920 , which speaks to your S-ALA negatives question.

Pete (psychenaut) later referenced a picture of what unstabalized R-ALA does in your stomach: http://relentlessimp...ipoic-acid.html . (Though I admit that I'm curious how he got that picture..)

KevinK posted a lot of references about S-ALA problems at http://www.imminst.o...amp;#entry90306 .

Don't let xanadu's antics distract you from the huge amout of information pointed to within this thread.

Edited by elrond, 04 February 2008 - 08:14 PM.

[kevink]

I go home, play with the family, have some dinner and check email and...here I am again. [thumb]

>ajnast4r misquoted 70f instead of 70c and corrected himself on PAGE 1.

i did no such thing...

whoops - Sorry! You're right...you never retracted that statement. I was super rushing to leave work and skimmed.

I guess your point was something like this?...

Juvenon patent: The R form can be purified from the S form. However, the major problem with this compound, when separated from the S form, is stability. The compound deteriorates relatively rapidly at room temperature.

Anyway from geronova's site --

Our first development in solving the polymer problem was the introduction of a unique, low temperature, oxygen free, anhydrous process to insure extremely low polymer content in bulk RLA powder and extended this technology to a proprietary encapsulation process to insure low polymer content in finished capsules.

This development allowed us to consistently produce capsules containing less than 3% polymer. Unfortunately, the stability was still poor in the finished products, as the capsules require refrigeration and have a maximum 6 month shelf life before the polymer content begins to grow quickly in un-refrigerated capsules and powder. One hour in a hot car can cause 100% polymerized RLA.

I was always curious...Anybody know what AOR uses in OrthoMind? It must be processed for enhanced stability somehow, but it's not salt stabilized as far as I know.

Extreme heat is NOT a necessary requisite for polymer formation, as indicated in the above patents and the citation by Reed. Reed heated the product to 65°C because he knew heat would accelerate the polymerization, but in the case of RLA this occurs instantly at 46°C.

Reed found the poly problem back in the 1950's? I guess I was wrong about the 70c though. Maybe I was thinking ALA melting points? I should have looked it up, but I was being lazy and rushing.

All this temp stuff was just for fun anyway. None of it matters. RALA won't increase plasma levels anyway...

Even if tablets or capsules of RLA are not polymeric, there is extensive polymerization on contact in the low pH environment of the stomach. GeroNova recently performed dissolution and bioavailability studies utilizing HPLC analysis of the plasma. The absorption of commercial RLA powder, capsules and tablets is less than 1%.

As an aside - this is a cool "History of RALA" pdf for anyone still reading this thread...
http://relentlessimp...cid_history.pdf

And I also dug up that graph from the Geronova bioavailability study which shows the spike from KRALA type solutions and the poor bioavailability of unstabilized rala. Pete had it all along in his blog.
http://relentlessimp...asma-study.html

[kevink]

kevink wrote:

>If you did you're homework you'd know the common knowledge that MCT and AOR's SR are SUSTAINED RELEASE products.

So are you saying that only SR r-ala is any good? Before, I was told only kr-ala was any good because ordinary r-ala broke down at room temps. Now you tell me it's 70c which is hot.

MCT (RPlus, MitoGold, RALAGel) and I suppose the AOR SR product will make it through your digestive system and raise your plasma levels. As a benefit, they will do it over several hours.

KRALA type solutions are spikey - it will also make it to your plasma but not last long at all (1.5 hours?)

Pure RALA is hard to work with and temperature sensitive (and hygroscopic), but I've ALWAYS said in this thread that I don't care about rala temps...it will never make it past your stomach to begin with (assuming Geronova's data was on the up and up and I believe it was).

I need to go relax and get ready for bed - so the rest you'll have to figure out yourself.

[xanadu]

Still no studies showing s-ala to be harmful nor telling us under what conditions it was tested. Still no proof of what temperature r-ala breaks down at. It seems kevink has backed away from his statement that it breaks down at 70c. Now the number is said to be 46c. Is that the final number or will we hear a different one today or tomorrow? 46c is about 115f which is still very hot. Still no proof that r-ala breaks down and becomes inactive on contact with stomach acids. Nothing but statements from a vendor with an interest in knocking his competitor's products. Notice that I have not called anyone a liar. I'm just pointing out that vendors have an interest in praising thier own products and knocking their competitors.

Why is it that the early studies using racemic ala showed benefits? Didn't they know that it breaks down soon at it gets into the stomach? Didn't they know it breaks down before they get it on the ups truck? Didn't they know that s-ala is harmful and cancels out the benefits of r-ala? All these things have been sworn to in this thread, among others. Why is it the original studies found benefit from plain ala if all that is true?

Elrond and others asked for some proof of s-ala being harmful. No such proof has been shown. Once again, we are told to go look for it ourselves. It seems odd how people can be so sure of things yet be unable to show any proof.

Then we have the claim that only time release r-ala is good.

[kevink]

To everyone else -

I'm done. For real this time.

[xanadu]

^ Why did you post again if you were done? You didn't say anything.

[rhdrury]

(xanadu)
nalpak wrote:
"Someone also made a good point about stomach acid polymerisation making ordinary R-LA pretty useless"

This was stated or speculated about but I saw no proof of that either. Sorry to be a drudge but I like to see proof.

Are you capable of believing the proof of your own eyes?
Vinegar has a pH of 2.8, within typical stomach acid ranges. Your can test it on R-LA yourself...............................
But I'm guessing that wouldn't be enough for you.

(xanadu)
"Sounds like you think Pete's alright now."

That was not what I said.

No, but it seemed implied to me (and abviously another). A pseudo-point, xanadu?
Are you by any chance a lawyer? You're as slippery with your reasoning and (mis-)statements as a master.



kevink - I like you. You have a lot so say, and don't load it with personal baggage.

Again you twist and misquote...

It does take a lot of energy to continue to point out the errors of reasoning, the lack of clarity of thought, the subtle and probably deliberate mis-quoting, mis-stating (- for seemingly no other point that the pride-based lack of withdrawl from a losing position).

Edited by rhdrury, 28 January 2006 - 11:25 AM.

[ajnast4r]

I would also like to see some specific studies showing that the S form is specifically harmful. I've seen speculation into reasons why it may be harmful. Logical speculation; however I haven't seen any specific studies to that effect. I'll admit I haven't read the entire thread as I'm pressed for time so if those studies have already been posted I would appreciate a point to them.

thanks

posted them already, they are on geronovas page

[eternaltraveler]

None of these studies compare the racemic mixture to r lipoic acid. Gernova's site says such studies should be forthcoming soon. I will be interested in seeing them.

Also, I assume most of you do not have access to most of the full text articles on pubmed. It isn't wise to base your assumptions on abstracts without being able to see the rest of a study. You would have no idea what the P values were, and how the study was run.

I also wouldn't base my decisions on only what I find on a vendor's website. Not that geronova isn't a good vendor, they just aren't likely to put studies up that discredit their assumptions. If you want to find such studies you will likely have to do a pubmed search yourself (assuming they exist, I don't know).

All that being said I do only buy r lipoic acid because it does make some logical sense that the S form could do some things that are harmful even when taken with the r form. All I've seen is that it competes for binding sites and might make the r form you take with it less effective as a result.

I encourage people here to be more critical of what we take to be given knowledge. That's what science is all about.

[cpdmain]

(Elrond)
All that being said I do only buy r lipoic acid because it does make some logical sense that the S form could do some things that are harmful even when taken with the r form. All I've seen is that it competes for binding sites and might make the r form you take with it less effective as a result.

There's a lot more than that wrong with S-LA, even mentioned on this post. kevink mentioned a few.

I encourage people here to be more critical of what we take to be given knowledge.

Are you implying they're not, and need your encouragement? What all people do need is to be more far accurate with their logical clarity of thinking and writing.
For example:

That's what science is all about.

Science is about a lot more than just that...

[xanadu]

And now cpdmain is lecturing Elrond.

"What all people do need is to be more far accurate with their logical clarity of thinking and writing."

Like you?

I've heard it said in this thread several times that I have misquoted people. Could one of you wise guys show me a single example of me misquoting someone? Just one solid example will do. I'm calling you on it, all of you. You do know what a quote is, don't you? I'll give you a clue, it's what is shown inside those little marks that look like this " ". Quoting someone is not the same as summarising their position. I'll save you the embarrassment on thinking that. Just show me one place where I misquoted anyone.

I quoted cdpmain as saying:

"Sounds like you think Pete's alright now."

And I replied:

"That was not what I said."

rhdrury said:

"No, but it seemed implied to me (and abviously another). A pseudo-point, xanadu?"

Now you want me to be responsible for your misunderstandings. I do not think pete is alright. He may be a good person but I do not care for his customer service, his prices or the way he treats people. I would not order from him. I simply mentioned that he made certain statements about anon posters actually working for or being shills for other vendors or unknown interests. I pointed out that right after his attacking me, a flock of recently registered anon names started attacking me. In what way does that imply that I think pete is a good guy?

rhdrury said:

"Are you by any chance a lawyer? You're as slippery with your reasoning and (mis-)statements as a master."

Can you show me any misstatements I've made or are you just engaging in more personal attacks? My occupation is none of anyone's business. I've mentioned several times that lawyers cause many problems in the world.

"It does take a lot of energy to continue to point out the errors of reasoning, the lack of clarity of thought, the subtle and probably deliberate mis-quoting, mis-stating (- for seemingly no other point that the pride-based lack of withdrawl from a losing position). "

More personal attacks. I know that attacking someone and claiming they made errors etc is easier than actually proving it. It takes no effort to call names but to prove misstatements, errors and so on, does. I'm not saying I've never been wrong, all of us have. However, I tell you to put up or shut up.

For a bunch of people who claim to be so scientific, it is truely amazing how some of them substitute emotion and near hysteria for any sort of proof or scientific reasoning. I and others have asked repeatedly for proof of certain statements. Instead of proof, we get more statements, verbal abuse and get told to look for it ourselves.

The temperature that r-ala is supposed to break down at has been stated as being 70f, 45c, and 70c. That's quite a range of temperatures. So far, none of those statements have been proven. S-ala has been said to be terribly harmful yet no proof of that has been given either. Then it was said that unless your ala was time release, it was of no use. Proof? little to none.

You guys should form a church. Then when someone makes a claim with no proof, all of the rest of you can chant "amen". Call it the church of the true believers. Am I getting sarcastic? Yes, I guess I've been in this thread too long. I give up on getting any solid info from any of you.

[curint]

(xanadu)
And now cpdmain is lecturing Elrond.

"lecturing"? I don't see anything factually or logically wrong with what cpdmain wrote. What do you mean my that?

"What all people do need is to be more far accurate with their logical clarity of thinking and writing."
Like you?

No, like you.

I've heard it said in this thread several times that I have misquoted people. Could one of you wise guys show me a single example of me misquoting someone? Just one solid example will do. I'm calling you on it, all of you. You do know what a quote is, don't you? I'll give you a clue, it's what is shown inside those little marks that look like this " ". Quoting someone is not the same as summarising their position. I'll save you the embarrassment on thinking that. Just show me one place where I misquoted anyone.

You are quite dishonest actually. Probably the most dishonest poster I've read on this board. Even the 'pseudo point' you make above - it's a slippery opt out.

Perhaps saying you mis-state would be more accurate. You have a very big tendency to mis-state when you 'summarise' other's positions. I think that's what they might mean. You regularly mis-state other's replies and give misleading 'summaries' - that's summaries that do not accurately reflect the points they made.



(Edit by Elrond, personal attacks will not be tolerated)

Edited by elrond, 04 February 2008 - 08:17 PM.

[xanadu]

Nothing but ad hominem attacks with little pretense of being anything else. Do the mods ever clean up junk like that?

[nalpak]

and once again youve failed to respond specifically to the content of what he wrote, or address the issues.
No doubt on another post you'll idiotically ask again for an example of when you've mis-stated anothers response.

I have been reading posts here for close to four months. Your the first poster to irritate me.
I don't understand this, because you seemed so reasonable and contructive on some other posts.

(edit by Elrond, no personal attacks please)

Edited by elrond, 04 February 2008 - 08:17 PM.

[dtompkin]

I do not think pete is alright. He may be a good person but I do not care for his customer service, his prices or the way he treats people. I would not order from him.

yes its very interesting what xanadu thinks of Pete. Does anyone else have this view? I read a post where I think even LifeMirage was prompted to comment on Pete's integrity honorability and service to the cause. I've not ordered anything yet (been here six months) because I've been reading up to find best and most respected and reputable suppliers. Like Pete?

And that's the impression I get from just about everyone else here.
And guess who's going to be the sole voice of antagonism about that. Any one else - I would like to know before ordering.
I think that goes a long way to showing what sort of person xanadu is.

Yes it is like he does get a perverse pleasure from creating conflict. There are unfortunately some people like that. They have nothing better to do in their lives than generate conflict as a source of enjoyment. Like a little epinephrine kick.

ad hominen attacks are all that's left to deal with xanadu.
He ignores any reasoning and comments from others that he can't answer.

I agree - he is pathetic. Nothing he writes can be trusted to be an accurate summary of others responses hes paraphrasing.
He'll probably ask for an example of this, having done that just above and then ignored curint's response.
What an idiot.

Edited by dtompkin, 29 January 2006 - 03:21 AM.

[curint]

Perhaps xanadu could give us some proof for his statement here:
http://www.imminst.o...71&t=9155&st=0

Hes such a hypocrite.

[Paul Idol]

None of these studies compare the racemic mixture to r lipoic acid. Gernova's site says such studies should be forthcoming soon. I will be interested in seeing them.

Also, I assume most of you do not have access to most of the full text articles on pubmed. It isn't wise to base your assumptions on abstracts without being able to see the rest of a study. You would have no idea what the P values were, and how the study was run.

I also wouldn't base my decisions on only what I find on a vendor's website. Not that geronova isn't a good vendor, they just aren't likely to put studies up that discredit their assumptions. If you want to find such studies you will likely have to do a pubmed search yourself (assuming they exist, I don't know).

All that being said I do only buy r lipoic acid because it does make some logical sense that the S form could do some things that are harmful even when taken with the r form. All I've seen is that it competes for binding sites and might make the r form you take with it less effective as a result.

I encourage people here to be more critical of what we take to be given knowledge. That's what science is all about.

Justin-

I completely agree, but I think your point that it makes logical sense that the S form could do some harm bears elaboration. There are legions of examples in biology of the importance of chirality and the different effects of different isomers. It's perfectly reasonable to make the working assumption when supplementing with an antioxidant that the body itself produces that a form that the body DOESN'T produce, in this case S-ALA, is likely bad news. That's not proof that S-ALA is harmful, but IMO it's a damn good reason to avoid it like the plague until and unless someone develops convincing proof that it's either beneficial or at least does no harm. But S-ALA also seems to be implicated in impairing insulin sensitivity and actively worsening the effectiveness of R-ALA, so advocating the racemic mixture strikes me as dubious in the extreme.

That's all completely distinct from the important point you make about maintaining a proper amount of skepticism.

-Paul

[xanadu]

Are schoolyard insults and name calling now the norm for Imminst? I thought there were some standards here. If currint's post is allowed to stand then that sets the bar for all future posts. How could any abusive posts be deleted later? They could just say it wasn't as bad as that one. I'd like to see a ruling from a mod (advisor) or administrator. Do we want to set the precedent that name calling and personal attacks are perfectly alright? You don't want to see people get down and dirty and I don't want to see it either. Soon as you let that cat out of the bag, it gets really ugly.

[eternaltraveler]

Alright. Everyone, please don't attack each other personally. It is pointless. Address ideas only. If this degenerates any further I'm going to lock this thread.

[eternaltraveler]

Now you want me to be responsible for your misunderstandings. I do not think pete is alright. He may be a good person but I do not care for his customer service, his prices or the way he treats people. I would not order from him. I simply mentioned that he made certain statements about anon posters actually working for or being shills for other vendors or unknown interests. I pointed out that right after his attacking me, a flock of recently registered anon names started attacking me. In what way does that imply that I think pete is a good guy?

I do think Pete is a stand up guy, I have ordered from him, and I probably will in the future. I believe that he believes in what he's selling. This is of course my personal opinion.

[eternaltraveler]

Justin-

I completely agree, but I think your point that it makes logical sense that the S form could do some harm bears elaboration. There are legions of examples in biology of the importance of chirality and the different effects of different isomers. It's perfectly reasonable to make the working assumption when supplementing with an antioxidant that the body itself produces that a form that the body DOESN'T produce, in this case S-ALA, is likely bad news. That's not proof that S-ALA is harmful, but IMO it's a damn good reason to avoid it like the plague until and unless someone develops convincing proof that it's either beneficial or at least does no harm. But S-ALA also seems to be implicated in impairing insulin sensitivity and actively worsening the effectiveness of R-ALA, so advocating the racemic mixture strikes me as dubious in the extreme.

That's all completely distinct from the important point you make about maintaining a proper amount of skepticism.

-Paul

I completely agree with you here as well. I think that it is a wise policy to use only the chiral form found in our bodies until the other form is proven safe. As you say there are numerous examples where a chiral form not found in nature is specifically harmful.

That being said there is a large quanity of data out there dealing with r ala, and racemic ala, and thus far we at least don't seem to be dealing with another thalidomide.

[rfenton]

(xanadu)
I do not think pete is alright. He may be a good person but I do not care for his customer service, his prices or the way he treats people.

To echo you - Do you have any proof of this? I like to see some proof.

This matters to me because I don't want to order from someone who you're saying has poor customer service, prices, and treatment of people.
But Elrond thinks otherwise. Is there a general concensus here? Based on your previous posts I would be very inclined not to trust what you say on this either, but maybe you're right. Can you give me any proof of what you're saying? (this is not a quote) but I think you're more or less saying dont buy from him.

I simply mentioned that he made certain statements about anon posters actually working for or being shills for other vendors or unknown interests. I pointed out that right after his attacking me, a flock of recently registered anon names started attacking me.

This could be taken to be implying that these anon name attacking you are shills with Pete?

[xanadu]

rfenton wrote:

"To echo you - Do you have any proof of this? I like to see some proof."

First of all, I am not knocking pete's products. From what I've heard, he stocks good stuff. However, there was a customer not too long ago who had a problem and brought it to one of the boards here. Pete basicly said the customer had to send back the stuff before pete would do anything about it. I believe it was a bottle that had been opened or something and a few pills taken out. Pete offered to replace it but the customer had to go through the hassle of sending it back even though other people piped up and said they had seen something similar. I saw another customer gripe about pete's customer service. None of that is a major thing. His prices are fairly steep though I'm sure there are others who are higher. He insulted me in this thread which prompted the third point.

"This could be taken to be implying that these anon name attacking you are shills with Pete?"

I said funny how that is. Take it any way you want. I'm not accusing anyone, it just seemed odd. I did say he was a good person, did I not? So far I haven't changed that opinion.

Getting back to the other topics... Why is it people go ballistic when someone asks for proof? I asked for proof of what temp r-ala goes bad at. I thought that would be an easy one to answer. Instead, as in the words of the song, I was slandered, libeled, called words I never saw in the bible. OK, getting a little dramatic, maybe I should tone it down. But seriously, what is wrong with wanting proof? I am a consumer too and want to know the straight scoop.

Where is the proof that racemic ala is no good for you, or that s-ala is not just neutral or mildly good but harmful? Even the proof of how long r-ala stays in the system seems rather sketchy. So far all we have are testimonials from vendors. The original studies were done on racemic ala. Were those ever shown to be false?

[curint]

But seriously, what is wrong with wanting proof? I am a consumer too and want to know the straight scoop.

Where is the proof that racemic ala is no good for you, or that s-ala is not just neutral or mildly good but harmful? Even the proof of how long r-ala stays in the system seems rather sketchy. So far all we have are testimonials from vendors. The original studies were done on racemic ala. Were those ever shown to be false?

Why is it people go ballistic when someone asks for proof?

Because for the 47th time on this post alone - there is no such thing as positive proof possible in science.
This was stated to you. This was explained to you.
Did you accept it? No.
Did you explain or give a single reason for your basis for not accepting it? No.
Yet you still ask for it.
*sigh*

[ajnast4r]

lets just let this thread die lol