19 replies to this topic

[William Sterog]

According to Ki67 and doublecortin immunostaining, neurons in the dendate gyrus were significantly enhanced at 40mg/kg and increased further at 100mg/kg (although not significantly different than 40mg/kg) with the percentage increase being 475% and 672%, respectively and relative to control.[37] Most of this enhancement was due to increased amounts of tertiary dendrites at both concentrations (354% and 579%, respectively), suggesting dendritic proliferation or an attenuation of dendritic loss associated with aging.[37]

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21332397

 

Oral administration of 0.5, 1, and 2g/kg of the ethanolic seed extract in mice was able to exert anxiolytic effects, and although it was equally effective as Buspirone and Diazepam (2mg/kg and 1mg/kg, respectively) at a black and white test (anxiety model[31])

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.../pubmed/2740429

 

Triterpenoids from Ziziphus fruits and seeds show efficacy in preventing macrophages (immune cells) from converting into foam cells, and may offer protection from artherosclerosis.[15] This study noted that out of 50 various herbs tested only Ziziphus, Foeniculi Fructus (Fennel Seed), and Hoelen were able to significantly suppress foam cell formation

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21446758

 

This numbers are just insane. I'm not able to remember anything that came close to this in terms of dendritic proliferation. 

 

For example, the nootropic I used to find the most powerful in this regard:

 

Centella Asiatica: The increases also took six weeks to manifest, but reached a 47–118% increase

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18218554

 

What do you think about this? 

[Mind_Paralysis]

Seems like powerful stuff.

I'm guessing there are local, Asian traditional medicine practitioners who have used this herb? What is the traditional view of it? If the properties are truly this strong, then it must be a cornerstone in traditional Vedic and Chinese medicine!

 

Oddly enough, I cant find much info about this being given to people with depression or trauma, more that it's given mostly for... sore throat? Various infections?

 

Hmm... that does seem a bit curious, since you'd think it would be used for brain-damage, depression and stroke, and NOT sore throats.

[William Sterog]

Seems like powerful stuff.

I'm guessing there are local, Asian traditional medicine practitioners who have used this herb? What is the traditional view of it? If the properties are truly this strong, then it must be a cornerstone in traditional Vedic and Chinese medicine!

Oddly enough, I cant find much info about this being given to people with depression or trauma, more that it's given mostly for... sore throat? Various infections?

Hmm... that does seem a bit curious, since you'd think it would be used for brain-damage, depression and stroke, and NOT sore throats.

I have read that this herb is given to treat constipation. So yeah, if the data is right, I don't understand why we don't find a record of it's use for mental health purposes.

It is also given to treat anxiety, I have a bottle of a blend that includes Uncaria Rhynchophylla, Ziziphus Jujube and Albizia Julibrissin. I find it more nootropic than anxiolytic, and that's why I started to research the three herbs.

I have another thread about Uncaria Rhynchophylla, it is also an interesting herb.

[William Sterog]

Some people asked here about the mechanisms behind the neurogenesis enhacing properties of Jujuba, so I started a research and while this herb seems to be incredibe: 

 

 The jujube treatment significantly induced the mRNA levels of NGF, BDNF and GDNF,and the effect was in a concentration-dependent manner(Fig. 1). The maximal induction of neurotrophic factors could reach over 80% increase at 1.5 mg/mL treatment of jujube water extract.

 

https://www.research...ured_Astrocytes

 

  The treatment with jujube water extract stimulated the expressions of neurotrophic factors in a dose-dependent manner, with the highest induction of ~100% for NGF, 100% for brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), 100% for glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor (GDNF) and 50% for neurotrophin 3 (NT3). These results supported the neurotrophic role of jujube on the brain.

 

http://repository.us...rd/1783.1-71745

 

Forskolin outperformed Jujuba in some areas.

 

 https://www.research...ackground/3.png

 

https://www.research...ured_Astrocytes

 

Forskolin seems to work through cAMP signalling.

 

  Forskolin increases cellular levels of an enzyme called cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). 

 

What about Jujuba?

 

  Administration of EEZS (ethanolic extract of the seed of Zizyphus jujuba var. spinosa) (200 mg/kg) increased the level of memory-related signaling molecules, including phosphorylation of extracellular signal-regulated kinase or cAMP response element-binding protein in the hippocampal region. Also, the time-dependent expression level of brain-derived neurotrophic factor by the administration of EEZS was markedly increased from 3 to 9 h.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3819903/

 

 The application of standardized jujube water extract induced neurite outgrowth of PC12 cells; this effect was similar to that of nerve growth factor (NGF). In parallel, the expressions of neurofilaments (NFs) in jujube-treated cultures showed a dose-dependent increase, with the highest induction by ~150% for NF68, 150% for NF160 and 100% for NF200. The application of H89, a protein kinase A (PKA) inhibitor, attenuated jujube-induced neurite outgrowth and neurofilament expression of the cultures.

 

http://repository.us...rd/1783.1-71745

 

So, Jujuba seems to work through cAMP signaling pathway. Is the 672% enhancement of neurons in the dentate gyrus just because of this, in which Forskolin seems to be better, or it is also related to other mechanisms?

 

Like estrogen in the brain:

 

 Jujube promotes learning and memory in a rat model by increasing estrogen levels in the blood and nitric oxide and acetycholine levels in the brain

 

https://www.research...ls_in_the_brain

 

Which seems to be contradictory with:

 

 In a screening of estrogenicity between medical plants, the fruits of Ziziphus (95% ethanolic extract) failed to show any estrogenic or anti-estrogenic effects at concentrations below 1mg/mL.

 

 https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21783839

 

or, and this is my favorite, serotonin receptor agonism:

 

Potentiating effect of spinosin, a C-glycoside flavonoid of Semen Ziziphi spinosae, on pentobarbital-induced sleep may be related to postsynaptic 5-HT(1A) receptors.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/20171860 

 

 Serotonin-induced increases in adult cell proliferation and neurogenesis are mediated through different and common 5-HT receptor subtypes in the dentate gyrus and the subventricular zone.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/14872203

 

 

This herb is very complex, yet promising as fuck. Where are all the great minds when they are needed?

[normalizing]

ive read lots of in vitro and mice studies on this one, but i cant recall any human being reporting anything interesting ever. its like polygola tenuifolia, remember the big fuzz about that one on this forum? big thread with all types of studies showing its super potent neurogenesis herb that can fix depression, anxiety and all problems and of course most were in vitro and mice studies and then people started experimenting with it and NOTHING. personally i fell for it as well, got it and didnt notice anything except it helped with limiting alcohol use which was very very strange undocumented effect. if anything i think it can be used to limit alcohol use. so anyway, this thread reminds me of that other one, a lot of fuzz about something that will probably disappoint :(

[William Sterog]

ive read lots of in vitro and mice studies on this one, but i cant recall any human being reporting anything interesting ever. its like polygola tenuifolia, remember the big fuzz about that one on this forum? big thread with all types of studies showing its super potent neurogenesis herb that can fix depression, anxiety and all problems and of course most were in vitro and mice studies and then people started experimenting with it and NOTHING. personally i fell for it as well, got it and didnt notice anything except it helped with limiting alcohol use which was very very strange undocumented effect. if anything i think it can be used to limit alcohol use. so anyway, this thread reminds me of that other one, a lot of fuzz about something that will probably disappoint :(

I was also the one causing all the hype about Polygala and I truly wasn't dissapointed about it. I also know a lot of people that enjoyed it, read about it in Reddit or in ND. If I don't take it anymore is because it is so effective for me that I'm afraid of downregulating something. Also, Bacopa greatly reduces it effectiveness in my experience.

Edited by William Sterog, 07 June 2017 - 06:19 AM.

[gamesguru]

according to Flex, ziziphus spinosa though harder to obtain may be the more interesting variant, having some not inconsiderable action at the serotonin 1B and GABAA site

[stan08]

according to Flex, ziziphus spinosa though harder to obtain may be the more interesting variant, having some not inconsiderable action at the serotonin 1B and GABAA site

 

It appears ziziphus spinosa is the varient used in the patented supplement Seditol - https://www.iherb.co...-Capsules/40784

 

However, it's combined with magnolia officinalis in that product.  Could be a very potent combo.

[William Sterog]

according to Flex, ziziphus spinosa though harder to obtain may be the more interesting variant, having some not inconsiderable action at the serotonin 1B and GABAA site

 

I believed that spinosa was just the name of the seed extract of ziziphus jujuba, in fact, I'm taking ziziphus spinosa. If this is considered spam, please delete, I can assure that it is not my intention:

 

https://www.swansonv...250-mg-120-caps

[normalizing]

seditol seems its main course of action is through magnolia im not sure how much effect jujube has in there. william, so this swanson formula works? they are going "wild" in there, i didnt even know they have wild jujube sold yet interesting

[William Sterog]

seditol seems its main course of action is through magnolia im not sure how much effect jujube has in there. william, so this swanson formula works? they are going "wild" in there, i didnt even know they have wild jujube sold yet interesting

 

I didn't find anything particularly impressive about it. But this is my usual response to almost everything, I wrote about it here; but I must say that I changed my mind about verbal fluency and word recall after I ran out of it, now I think that it does help with both of them. 

[normalizing]

thats strange since it is not its main indication of use. its supposed to be anti-stress and a natural sleep aid so i guess it doesnt work for this after all....

[BieraK]

Ziziphus Jujube apparently does not have any estrogenic effect
According to examine:

 

7.1. Estrogen

In a screening of estrogenicity between medical plants, the fruits of Ziziphus (95% ethanolic extract) failed to show any estrogenic or anti-estrogenic effects at concentrations below 1mg/mL.^[49]

 

 

 

This is the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21783839

 

 

Screening of estrogenic and antiestrogenic activities from medicinal plants.

Kim IG¹, Kang SC, Kim KC, Choung ES, Zee OP.

Author information

Abstract

The medicinal plant extracts commercially used in Asia were screened for their estrogenic and antiestrogenic activities in a recombinant yeast system featuring both a human estrogen receptor (ER) expression plasmid and a reporter plasmid. Pueraria lobata (flower) had the highest estrogenic relative potency (RP, 7.75×10(-3); RP of 17β-estradiol=1), followed by Amomum xanthioides (1.25×10(-3)). Next potent were a group consisting of Glycyrrhiza uralensis, Zingiber officinale, Rheum undulatum, Curcuma aromatica, Eriobotrya japonica, Sophora flavescens, Anemarrhena asphodeloides, Polygonum multiflorum, and Pueraria lobata (root) (ranging from 9.5×10(-4) to 1.0×10(-4)). Least potent were Prunus persica, Lycoppus lucidus, and Adenophora stricta (ranging from 9.0×10(-5) to 8.0×10(-5)). The extracts exerting antiestrogenic effects, Cinnamomum cassia and Prunus persica, had relative potencies of 1.14×10(-3) and 7.4×10(-4), respectively (RP of tamoxifen=1). The solvent fractions from selected estrogenic or antiestrogenic herbs had higher estrogenic relative potencies, with their RP ranging from 9.3×10(-1) to 2.7×10(-4) and from 8.2×10(-1) to 9.1×10(-3), respectively. These results support previous reports on the efficacy of Oriental medicinal plants used or not used as phytoestrogens for hormone replacement therapy.

 

Below is the table with the results, other Nootropics herbs like rehmannia, curcuma longa and Polygala Tenuifolia does not display any estrogenic or anti-estrogenic activty according to the study

 

Attached Files

•  jpg.jpg   85.67KB   2 downloads

Edited by BieraK, 07 July 2017 - 07:04 AM.

[William Sterog]

I was wrong, it is a serotonin receptor antagonist* not agonist.

These results suggest that spinosin may be an antagonist at postsynaptic 5-HT(1A)

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20171860

[BasicBiO]

I've used the Swanson brand for awhile now and mostly notice the sedative effects. I take 1-2 capsules at night before bed and tend to sleep deeper but can have a little grogginess in the morning. Haven't noticed any massive uptick in cerebral functions, but the anti-anxiety effects are pretty nice.

[William Sterog]

I've used the Swanson brand for awhile now and mostly notice the sedative effects. I take 1-2 capsules at night before bed and tend to sleep deeper but can have a little grogginess in the morning. Haven't noticed any massive uptick in cerebral functions, but the anti-anxiety effects are pretty nice.

I have been using the Ziziphus (Jujuba var.) Spinosa extract from Swanson, and I experienced some anxiolysis the first times and some increase in verbal fluency over the long term, but this could be related to any other item in my stack.

The thing is that I don't believe that the extract is well formulated or powerful enough. Are you trying the whole fruit one or the Spinosa extract?

[jack black]

 

ive read lots of in vitro and mice studies on this one, but i cant recall any human being reporting anything interesting ever. its like polygola tenuifolia, remember the big fuzz about that one on this forum? big thread with all types of studies showing its super potent neurogenesis herb that can fix depression, anxiety and all problems and of course most were in vitro and mice studies and then people started experimenting with it and NOTHING. personally i fell for it as well, got it and didnt notice anything except it helped with limiting alcohol use which was very very strange undocumented effect. if anything i think it can be used to limit alcohol use. so anyway, this thread reminds me of that other one, a lot of fuzz about something that will probably disappoint :(

I was also the one causing all the hype about Polygala and I truly wasn't dissapointed about it. I also know a lot of people that enjoyed it, read about it in Reddit or in ND. If I don't take it anymore is because it is so effective for me that I'm afraid of downregulating something. Also, Bacopa greatly reduces it effectiveness in my experience.

 

 

Yup, you have a talent to hype about things. you persuaded me to buy that polygala that turned out to be minimally effective. I guess this time it's only $8.99.

[monowav]

Here's my review of it if you're interested https://mybiohack.co...-nt3-nrf2-sleep

[normalizing]

 

 

ive read lots of in vitro and mice studies on this one, but i cant recall any human being reporting anything interesting ever. its like polygola tenuifolia, remember the big fuzz about that one on this forum? big thread with all types of studies showing its super potent neurogenesis herb that can fix depression, anxiety and all problems and of course most were in vitro and mice studies and then people started experimenting with it and NOTHING. personally i fell for it as well, got it and didnt notice anything except it helped with limiting alcohol use which was very very strange undocumented effect. if anything i think it can be used to limit alcohol use. so anyway, this thread reminds me of that other one, a lot of fuzz about something that will probably disappoint :(

I was also the one causing all the hype about Polygala and I truly wasn't dissapointed about it. I also know a lot of people that enjoyed it, read about it in Reddit or in ND. If I don't take it anymore is because it is so effective for me that I'm afraid of downregulating something. Also, Bacopa greatly reduces it effectiveness in my experience.

 

 

Yup, you have a talent to hype about things. you persuaded me to buy that polygala that turned out to be minimally effective. I guess this time it's only $8.99.

 

 

 

i brought polygala too, and the powder version had some noticiable effect while on repeat buy i did get the capsules because the powder was sold out and i found out scam. it listed rice flour as main ingredient and they werent fucking kidding! all it was and tasted like was rice. i took mega doses with no effect whatsoever. i assume maybe you got the capsules too from nootropic depot? they had the powder, darker color powder with bitter nasty taste to the throat which has nothing to do with their fake capsules!

 

[BasicBiO]

 

I've used the Swanson brand for awhile now and mostly notice the sedative effects. I take 1-2 capsules at night before bed and tend to sleep deeper but can have a little grogginess in the morning. Haven't noticed any massive uptick in cerebral functions, but the anti-anxiety effects are pretty nice.

I have been using the Ziziphus (Jujuba var.) Spinosa extract from Swanson, and I experienced some anxiolysis the first times and some increase in verbal fluency over the long term, but this could be related to any other item in my stack.

The thing is that I don't believe that the extract is well formulated or powerful enough. Are you trying the whole fruit one or the Spinosa extract?

 

 

I think its the whole fruit version..says "Full Spectrum".  Id be interested in trying a better extract.