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What do you think happens after death?

religion philosophy death spirituality afterlife reincarnation consciousness nothingness oblivion karma

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#31 platypus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 04:26 PM

It appears you have not considered that QA needs to work in the real world, instead of only working in theory. Are you the same person who claimed a few months ago that QA will be reality by 2040?


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#32 seivtcho

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 06:23 PM

No. It was not me. Why that guy thought, that quantum archeology will be ready at 2040?



#33 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 12:58 AM

Formulas don't make the reality, but they show you how you can change the reality.

Once you have the formula you can construct a plan.

Once having a plan, you can work on the plan.

 

Once knowing enough much about what it was, you can onstruct your plan for resurrections.

Its as simple to understand as it is to build again a ruined building.

 

On the very same way, but quite a long time into the future, once having enough information for a death human, people would be able to rebuild it back, e.g. they can resurrect the human.

 

 

By the way, I suppose, that you believe, that God will resurrect us. Will you please explain us how? Lets see if the religeous resurrection plan is better than the scientific one.

Yes there is a God and no I am not He.  It is beyond my pay grade to play god but you seem to have no problem with resurrection so it should be within your grasp to explain it.  Simple.  Since we do not posses the future it seems to be as great a place as any to hide our fantasies.  I see no one from the future and they have no effect on us in changing it.  We know if you are only physical what happens when you die.



#34 seivtcho

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 08:16 AM

There are two options:

 

1. There is a God

If there is a God, then His resurrections methode will not be uncompatable with the scientific one. The science simply gave you another try. Will you be resurrected and how? The chances only increase.

 

2. There is no God

If you want to be resurrected, you have to hope only for the science.

 

The choice is yours. If you definately don't want to use the scientific option, you may simply write somewhere your definite wish or simply build it inside your brain. Your neural network will get calculated after several or more thousands of years, and your actions also will be calculated, and if your choice is definately against being resurrescted on that way, or if your actions has been towards stopping the technology, then you will not be resurrected by the method of the deterministic resurrection done by the people. When the technology gets ready, who will be resurrected and who will not, will depend entirely from the people, who posses the technology. They have no reason not to accept your precalculated wish not to be resurrected. I suppose, that they will also have some filter of behaviour and things done from you in order to decide if they will resurrect you or not. For example Hitler may not be resurrected. On the way the human psychology works, they perhaps will not resurrect those, who may turn against them for one reason or another. "Who is not with us is against us" kicking against that technology may result in kicking your ass if the technology gets constructed.



#35 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:09 PM

There are two options:

 

1. There is a God

If there is a God, then His resurrections methode will not be uncompatable with the scientific one. The science simply gave you another try. Will you be resurrected and how? The chances only increase.

 

2. There is no God

If you want to be resurrected, you have to hope only for the science.

 

The choice is yours. If you definately don't want to use the scientific option, you may simply write somewhere your definite wish or simply build it inside your brain. Your neural network will get calculated after several or more thousands of years, and your actions also will be calculated, and if your choice is definately against being resurrescted on that way, or if your actions has been towards stopping the technology, then you will not be resurrected by the method of the deterministic resurrection done by the people. When the technology gets ready, who will be resurrected and who will not, will depend entirely from the people, who posses the technology. They have no reason not to accept your precalculated wish not to be resurrected. I suppose, that they will also have some filter of behaviour and things done from you in order to decide if they will resurrect you or not. For example Hitler may not be resurrected. On the way the human psychology works, they perhaps will not resurrect those, who may turn against them for one reason or another. "Who is not with us is against us" kicking against that technology may result in kicking your ass if the technology gets constructed.

Sevietho:  There are two options:
1. There is a God
If there is a God, then His resurrections methode will not be uncompatable with the scientific one. The science simply gave you another try. Will you be resurrected and how? The chances only increase.
2. There is no God
If you want to be resurrected, you have to hope only for the science.


Indeed there are two options.  The second one has been debated extensively on Longecity under the topic  “Is there evidence for Atheism.” There is none but it is off topic here where we are considering what happens to YOU after you die?  My answer is the worm.  And that is the scientific answer.  Evidence?  So far for millennia everyone rots in one way or the other.  EVERYTHING that is only physical dies science shows us.  Under two (2) the choice is not ours.  We die.  YOU will die whether you wish it or not..  Since when did your belief in technology determine whether you are going to be resurrected or not?  This is less than any religion but gobbligoop.  And by the way theists are big believers in technology and science.  To think otherwise betrays immense ignorance.  What is truly going to happen to YOU????  Science is a method not an answer.  Everything purely physical dies is where the evidence is..

 

#36 seivtcho

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 10:38 PM

What will happen with me after I die?

 

Well, if I don't get cryopreserved I will be eaten by the worms.

 

Then, if the deterministic resurrction works out, several thousand years later I will be resurrected.

 

And finally, if there is a God, I will wait for His resurrection.

 

If nothing from this happens, I will simply remain eaten from the worms.

 

How about you? What are your plans after you die?



#37 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 11:28 PM

Serivtcho:   Well, if I don't get cryopreserved I will be eaten by the worms.


 There are many other possiblities beside being turned into worm shit, Plus life spans differ depending on circumstances and species.  Do you think being frozen is living?  Dante thought it was the deepest pit in hell.  Remember some scientists project global warming.  We (or our atoms) will be inside the surface of the sun.  Think your coolant system will still be working?


Then, if the deterministic resurrction works out, several thousand years later I will be resurrected.


 YOU. :) Science??

And finally, if there is a God, I will wait for His resurrection.

If nothing from this happens, I will simply remain eaten from the worms.

How about you? What are your plans after you die?


As you know I am a Christian but this is off topic here.  I would be happy to discuss it in the Spirituality and Religion section and have done so extensively.  Do you think the worms will eat your spirit if you have one?  If you have a spirit what does it mean to die. Who are you?

#38 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 06:45 AM

The idea of the cryonics is not simply to stay frozen until the sun swallows you.

The idea is your corpse to be preserved until the moment in which the science to be able to thaw you back, revive you, and make you immortal.

It is true, it may not happen.

The problem is that you can't see in the future, so even you don't know if this will happen or not.

There is a plenty of time before the sun to start expanding. In my oppinion the science may push it through, and will thaw you before the sun - long enough for you to leave the planet.

 

If the deterministic resurrection works out, it does not matter when will it work out, because you may calculate infinitely in the forwards, and infinitely in the backwards direction. So everything, that has ever lived on that planet will be calculated from the beginning of life to the moment when the dterministic resurrection will be possible. So if once it happens, it may also work for me.

 

If I have spirit, if I don't... Having or not having a spirit can be combined both with the cryonics and with the deterministic resurrection.

I am not sure I have a spirit.

Who am I? I don't know - by saying "my spirit" obviously people apply of posessing a property. such as my house, my car, my hand, or my leg. Obviously there is someone, who has the car. Who is the someone who has my spirit? Who is the one, who has the spirit? I don't know. I never thought on that question.

 


Edited by seivtcho, 23 December 2016 - 06:49 AM.


#39 ceridwen

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

I believe in the resurrection of the body
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#40 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 08:38 PM

Seivtcho:  The idea of the cryonics is not simply to stay frozen until the sun swallows you.  

The idea is your corpse to be preserved until the moment in which the science to be able to thaw you back, revive you, and make you immortal. It is true, it may not happen.
 


Are YOU alive when you are frozen?  What is the motive to revive you?  In what way are you special enough to revive?  Isn’t it more fun to have a baby?
 
You rest on a faith without evidence.  What is the scientific probiblity?
 
 

  The problem is that you can't see in the future, so even you don't know if this will happen or not There is a plenty of time before the sun to start expanding. In my oppinion the science may push it through, and will thaw you before the sun - long enough for you to leave the planet.

Sounds like all humans not just me.  Time goes one way.  But what ever begins to exist has a cause.  Kalam argument

 Many things beside the sun, which is dieing, can happen to extinguish us.  You won’t last until the sun cooks us.  We are all going to hell unless there is some way to escape it.  YOU are going to leave the planet?  Going to where?  The stars are speeding away from each other at almost the speed of light.  How are YOU going to catch them and who pays for it.  Do all believers, such as you, get to go?

 

If the deterministic resurrection works out, it does not matter when will it work out, because you may calculate infinitely in the forwards, and infinitely in the backwards direction. So everything, that has ever lived on that planet will be calculated from the beginning of life to the moment when the dterministic resurrection will be possible. So if once it happens, it may also work for me.  If I have spirit, if I don't... Having or not having a spirit can be combined both with the cryonics and with the deterministic resurrection.

I am not sure I have a spirit.


 Ever hear of Hilbert’s Hotel?  Google it.  Is it possible to cross an absolute infinity?  Is infinity an odd or even number?  What is infinity plus or minus one?  We have no scientific evidence the future is infinite.  You throw these words around as if you know what you are talking about.

:) Everything that is only physical dies.  The physical body dies and rots after what is relitively a short period of time.  This is the blessed hope of the physical only.

Who am I? I don't know - by saying "my spirit" obviously people apply of posessing a property. such as my house, my car, my hand, or my leg. Obviously there is someone, who has the car. Who is the someone who has my spirit? Who is the one, who has the spirit? I don't know. I never thought on that question.


What happens if it is the spirit which does not die?  The body must be resurrected but how?  This topic is about the body.

#41 seivtcho

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 09:57 PM

Everything I write can be combined with the view that people may have an immortal spirit.

 

Cryopreservation and deterministic resurrections can be an option if the we have no immortal spirit.

 

Its like an algorythm:

- do we have animmortal spirit yes/no - yes - good - no - go to cryonics - were you thawed yes/no - yes good - no rely on determinism - did it work out before the human kind to extinguish yes/no - yes good - no - is there a resurrection granted from God yes/no - yes goog - no Sorry!

 

 

 

 

 

The cryopreservation of people is not experimentally confirmed, so yes, today it is only a theory.

But its absolute failure is also only a theory. You can't see the future, and thus you cant be absolutely sure what will happen with bodies, that get cryopreserved today, so you can't say with 100% certainity, that they are doomed.

The evidence that cryopreserved people may be thawed in the future is the nature of the science itself. The sciences and the technologies constantly develope. Thus the things, that become possible rises in number, and things, that were supposed to be impossible are being done. When something becomes possible, it opens the door for other things to become possible. Each of these other things make possible other things. It happens like in a speeding up chain reaction of more and more possible things. As a result of this speeding up chain reaction everything, that today we can think od, nd many things, that we cant even imagine, will become possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea about the deterministic resurrections is logical, scientifically(on the scientific laws of nature) and mathematically based.

Everything that has lived from the beginning of life until the moment the deterministic calculations will be possible is a finite number. Many things would have lived until then, but this still is a finite number.

I wrote, that you can calculate infinitely in both directions, only to explain you the shortest way, why the question of when that calculations will be possible does not matter - because everything will be calculated backwards to the very beginning of life, and you will be calculated no matter of when the calculations will start.



#42 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 December 2016 - 11:30 PM

Infinity is an abstract object and may not even exist.  What combination of natural laws mathematically support resurrection?  Because you can use the concept if infinity in math does not mean it exists and I noticed you did not deal with the problem of infinity at all.  Certainly the future of the body has little to do with it.  The rest of this is not logical at all.  What happens to the body?  It lives, dies and rots.  The worm awaits if you are only physical.



#43 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 03:17 AM

Seivtcho: If a person’s conscious experience supervenes on physical events, then there could be a formula or description of physical conditions, which when met, will result in an instance of the person’s conscious experience. However, a person’s spirit is both nonphysical and not supervening on physical events. Therefore, there can be no formula or description of physical conditions which will bring about an instance of a person’s spirit. We would have to be totally dependent on God for this. This is the difference between a purely naturalistic view of reality and a view of reality in which there is more than just nature alone.

Shadowhawk: I think that the concept of infinity is descriptive of realities. I see it as describing anything that has no endpoint. For example, resurrection to eternal life means that there is no endpoint to that life. Also, there are infinite structures in the laws of nature. A computer can begin to explore such structures, but only to a finite extent. For example, a computer can begin to calculate the decimal solution to the square root of 2. Due to its infinite complexity, the computer will require ever increasing resources as it computes more and more digits of the solution. The computer is not inventing the solution, but is simply exploring it. The infinitely complex solution existed before the computer ever got involved.
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#44 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 06:19 AM

Infinity is an abstract object and may not even exist.  What combination of natural laws mathematically support resurrection?  Because you can use the concept if infinity in math does not mean it exists and I noticed you did not deal with the problem of infinity at all.  Certainly the future of the body has little to do with it.  The rest of this is not logical at all.  What happens to the body?  It lives, dies and rots.  The worm awaits if you are only physical.

 

If you don't believe, that infinity exists, then how do you imagine the God to be existing forever? 



#45 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 06:23 AM

... However, a person’s spirit is both nonphysical and not supervening on physical events. Therefore, there can be no formula or description of physical conditions which will bring ... a person’s spirit. We would have to be totally dependent on God for this. ... 

 

If the spirit is a completely non-physical, that to be neither a matter, nor an energy, then how are you that sure it exists at all? 



#46 platypus

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 09:58 AM

QA is based on a number of dubious axioms about the nature of reality, computability etc. for it it work even in theory. 



#47 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 12:54 PM

At a smaller scale the deterministic calculations have already worked. 

 

You can calculate how the moon was seen in the date of your birth. 

https://stardate.org/nightsky/moon



#48 platypus

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 02:28 PM

Even the solar system and orbits of planet are chaotic in a longer timescale, preventing exact predictions forward or backward in time. 



#49 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 03:53 PM

Chaotic, because you don't know all of the factors involved in the formula. 

 

We live in a calculatable world. The better knowledge of the factors involved, the better the formulas, the better the calculations. 

 

You can calculate which day of the week it was when you were born. 

 

For that you need onlly the start point and the rule. 

 

Today it is 24th of December 2016. It is Saturday. 

 

Start rotating them backwards until you reach your your birth date, 

 

23th of December 2016 - Friday

22th of December 2016 - Thursday

21st of December 2016 - Wednesday

20th of December 2016 - Thuesday

.... 
1st of January 1950 - Sunday
 

P.S. 

You can actually make a PC program to do the calculations. Bothe forwards and backwards. 

It is a task for beginning programmers. 

To know if an year is 365 or 366 days the year must be devided to 4 without a reminder of a devision

 

 


Edited by seivtcho, 24 December 2016 - 03:57 PM.


#50 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 05:10 PM

If the spirit is a completely non-physical, that to be neither a matter, nor an energy, then how are you that sure it exists at all?

Existence of non-physical things are admitted even within the philosophy of naturalism. For example, causality is most essential to nature but is not itself physical. David Chalmers argues extensively that conscious experience is not physical, but holding to a philosophy of naturalism, he asserts that conscious experience supervenes on physical processes. Conscious experience is something that all of us (unless some are phenomenal zombies) experience in a most intimate way, but all the physical processes of nature can be explained without reference to conscious experience at all.

Edited by Clifford Greenblatt, 24 December 2016 - 05:17 PM.


#51 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 06:50 PM

How do you imagine the spirit as non physical as the casuality?



#52 platypus

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 07:40 PM

 

We live in a calculatable world. 

Not necessarily. Got proof?



#53 seivtcho

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 07:44 PM

Each law of each science is a proof.

 

Each rule is a proof.  

 

I already told you how to calculate which day from the week is your birthday.


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#54 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 24 December 2016 - 10:36 PM

How do you imagine the spirit as non physical as the casuality?

Causality is not mass or energy, but all physical processes in nature act in accordance with laws of causality. Conscious experience is not mass or energy, but it is something intimately familiar to us. Conscious experience is intimately associated with physical processes, but is not physical itself. The idea of the spirit goes further. Whereas conscious experience supervenes on physical processes, a spirit does not. One person's spirit differs from that of another by something independent of any physical processes. We have no physical means to detect what organisms have the phenomenon of conscious experience associated with them, much less than we have any way to prove that each person has a unique spirit, which does not supervene on physical processes. However, I have an intuitive sense that my conscious experience is a property unique to myself. Being a property, it does not change with time, despite the physical processes of my mind changing significantly with time.

#55 platypus

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 04:43 AM

There have been other threads on this forum where the myriad problems with QA have been listed. No concrete solutions to the problems were even suggested. I'm not sure if reiterating that discussion is worth it. 



#56 seivtcho

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 07:02 AM

 

... Conscious experience is not mass or energy, but it is something intimately familiar to us. Conscious experience is intimately associated with physical processes, but is not physical itself. The idea of the spirit goes further. Whereas conscious experience supervenes on physical processes, a spirit does not. One person's spirit differs from that of another by something independent of any physical processes. We have no physical means to detect what organisms have the phenomenon of conscious experience associated with them, much less than we have any way to prove that each person has a unique spirit, which does not supervene on physical processes. However, I have an intuitive sense that my conscious experience is a property unique to myself. Being a property, it does not change with time, despite the physical processes of my mind changing significantly with time.

 

 

Sorry if I bust your views of the world, but I think, that you are not correct.

 

Consciousness is a product of our brains. It is neurons fireing pulses to each-other. In this terms, the consciousness is an energy - the electric pulses that the neurons share. We are different personalities, because we have differences in the way the neurons are connected in our brain. We have no physical means to detect what species have consciousness, because people still know too little about the neural networks of all of the species. All properties of the way of thinking are becasue of differences in the brain.



#57 platypus

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 01:20 PM

Here's long a tedious thread about QA:

 

http://www.longecity...topgams-thread/



#58 Clifford Greenblatt

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 03:13 PM

Sorry if I bust your views of the world, but I think, that you are not correct.
 
Consciousness is a product of our brains. It is neurons fireing pulses to each-other. In this terms, the consciousness is an energy - the electric pulses that the neurons share. We are different personalities, because we have differences in the way the neurons are connected in our brain. We have no physical means to detect what species have consciousness, because people still know too little about the neural networks of all of the species. All properties of the way of thinking are becasue of differences in the brain.

What you are describing is consciousness, but conscious experience. Conscious experience is something different from consciousness. Consciousness is a class of physical brain processes. Conscious experience is intimately associated with consciousness, but is not the same thing. A phenomenal zombie would have all the physical brain processes of consciousness but would not have any conscious experience associated with that consciousness.

#59 seivtcho

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 03:43 PM

So conscious experience (what I explain) is the fireing between the neurons, and

consciousness is the same processes, e.g. the fireing between the neurons.

 

I still can't understand the difference.



#60 platypus

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Posted 25 December 2016 - 04:25 PM

So conscious experience (what I explain) is the fireing between the neurons, and

consciousness is the same processes, e.g. the fireing between the neurons.

 

I still can't understand the difference.

That's just labeling anyway instead of explaining anything. Why and how does neuronal firing cause conscious experience?







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