131 replies to this topic

[Danail Bulgaria]

Thats my current view on what causes the entire brain working. 

 

Consciousness is a product of the brain. So it has to be the product of the neural networks. 

[Clifford Greenblatt]

So conscious experience (what I explain) is the fireing between the neurons, and
consciousness is the same processes, e.g. the fireing between the neurons.
 
I still can't understand the difference.

The firing between neurons constitutes the physical processes of consciousness. There may be chemical processes to consider also, but I will consider only the firing between neurons here to keep things simple. The firing between neurons is intimately associated with conscious experience, but is not conscious experience itself. A phenomenal zombie would have the same firing between neurons as a person with conscious experience but, unlike a person with conscious experience, there would be no conscious experience associated with a phenomenal zombie's firing between neurons.
To give an illustration, suppose person E has conscious experiences and Z is a phenomenal zombie. Suppose both have an identical pattern of firing between neurons associated with being tormented with excruciating pain. I would be highly concerned about the suffering the E is experiencing. However, I would not be concerned about Z. Z may behave the same way as E does under such distressing conditions, but Z is not really suffering. Z would appear to be suffering just as much as E to an external observer, but that appearance of suffering would be just an illusion.

So conscious experience (what I explain) is the fireing between the neurons, and
consciousness is the same processes, e.g. the fireing between the neurons.
 
I still can't understand the difference.

The firing between neurons constitutes the physical processes of consciousness. There may be chemical processes to consider also, but I will consider only the firing between neurons here to keep things simple. The firing between neurons is intimately associated with conscious experience, but is not conscious experience itself. A phenomenal zombie would have the same firing between neurons as a person with conscious experience but, unlike a person with conscious experience, there would be no conscious experience associated with a phenomenal zombie's firing between neurons.
To give an illustration, suppose person E has conscious experiences and Z is a phenomenal zombie. Suppose both have an identical pattern of firing between neurons associated with being tormented with excruciating pain. I would be highly concerned about the suffering the E is experiencing. However, I would not be concerned about Z. Z may behave the same way as E does under such distressing conditions, but Z is not really suffering. Z would appear to be suffering just as much as E to an external observer, but that appearance of suffering would be just an illusion.

[shadowhawk]

 

Infinity is an abstract object and may not even exist.  What combination of natural laws mathematically support resurrection?  Because you can use the concept if infinity in math does not mean it exists and I noticed you did not deal with the problem of infinity at all.  Certainly the future of the body has little to do with it.  The rest of this is not logical at all.  What happens to the body?  It lives, dies and rots.  The worm awaits if you are only physical.

 

If you don't believe, that infinity exists, then how do you imagine the God to be existing forever? 

 

Time is created, God is, I am.  There is no forever for God.  There is no forever for us.  We exist because God wills it however we are off topic.

[shadowhawk]

 

The firing between neurons constitutes the physical processes of consciousness. There may be chemical processes to consider also, but I will consider only the firing between neurons here to keep things simple. The firing between neurons is intimately associated with conscious experience, but is not conscious experience itself. A phenomenal zombie would have the same firing between neurons as a person with conscious experience but, unlike a person with conscious experience, there would be no conscious experience associated with a phenomenal zombie's firing between neurons.
To give an illustration, suppose person E has conscious experiences and Z is a phenomenal zombie. Suppose both have an identical pattern of firing between neurons associated with being tormented with excruciating pain. I would be highly concerned about the suffering the E is experiencing. However, I would not be concerned about Z. Z may behave the same way as E does under such distressing conditions, but Z is not really suffering. Z would appear to be suffering just as much as E to an external observer, but that appearance of suffering would be just an illusion.
The firing between neurons constitutes the physical processes of consciousness. There may be chemical processes to consider also, but I will consider only the firing between neurons here to keep things simple. The firing between neurons is intimately associated with conscious experience, but is not conscious experience itself. A phenomenal zombie would have the same firing between neurons as a person with conscious experience but, unlike a person with conscious experience, there would be no conscious experience associated with a phenomenal zombie's firing between neurons.
To give an illustration, suppose person E has conscious experiences and Z is a phenomenal zombie. Suppose both have an identical pattern of firing between neurons associated with being tormented with excruciating pain. I would be highly concerned about the suffering the E is experiencing. However, I would not be concerned about Z. Z may behave the same way as E does under such distressing conditions, but Z is not really suffering. Z would appear to be suffering just as much as E to an external observer, but that appearance of suffering would be just an illusion.

 

My father died, flat line brainwaves but he was still conscious.  I saw the double monitor of his brainwaves.  Flat.  How? THIS IS NOT UNIQUE.  Off topic.

[Danail Bulgaria]

To tell the true, I believe the existence of infinity, and I believe, that there is forever. So, if there is a God, or if we can make it, we can be immortal. 

I am more willing to define the Hilbert’s Hotel as a non-unavoidable situation. 

 

How do you know, that your father was conscious? 

[Clifford Greenblatt]

My father died, flat line brainwaves but he was still conscious.  I saw the double monitor of his brainwaves.  Flat.  How? THIS IS NOT UNIQUE.  Off topic.

If I am reading your question correctly, this seems to be the opposite of the phenomenal zombie concept. Rather than there being no conscious experience in the presence of the physical processes of consciousness, you might be presenting a case of conscious experience in the absence of the physical processes of consciousness. However, I would have to ask the same question as Seivtcho. How do you know that your father was conscious? If he was conversing with you, then there may have been something wrong with the monitors. If he was conversing with you and there were truly no physical processes of consciousness going on, then there was some supernatural intervention with physical events going on. If he was not giving any physical indications of consciousness whatever, then you would have no way to know that he had conscious experience in your presence except by special revelation.

[platypus]

The phenomenal zombie is a thought experiment. It's possible such things cannot exist. 

[Clifford Greenblatt]

The phenomenal zombie is a thought experiment. It's possible such things cannot exist.

David Chalmers presents the phenomenal zombie as something that is logically possible but may or may not be naturally possible. The only point of the phenomenal zombie concept is to argue that conscious experience is not physical. The validity of the argument does not depend on whether the phenomenal zombie is naturally possible. In practice, many people may regard a lobster as phenomenal zombie. They boil the lobster alive without any regard to the possibility that it may be suffering. They may figure that the lobster's desperate struggle in the boiling water is just a mechanical reaction to its stimulation, without any conscious experience being involved. How would you know?

[shadowhawk]

To tell the true, I believe the existence of infinity, and I believe, that there is forever. So, if there is a God, or if we can make it, we can be immortal. 

I am more willing to define the Hilbert’s Hotel as a non-unavoidable situation. 

 

How do you know, that your father was conscious? 

I know he was conscious because he came back to life after he had been pronounced dead by two doctors and was under double monitors showing everything flat line.  His doctors were Atheists.  Later my dad did not believe me when I told Him he had died.  He knew he hadn't.  When he finally believed me he told me what he had experienced.   If you believe in the existence of infinity tell me how you got here.  Your definition of Hilbert's Hotel is gobbligoop.

 

[shadowhawk]

 

My father died, flat line brainwaves but he was still conscious.  I saw the double monitor of his brainwaves.  Flat.  How? THIS IS NOT UNIQUE.  Off topic.

If I am reading your question correctly, this seems to be the opposite of the phenomenal zombie concept. Rather than there being no conscious experience in the presence of the physical processes of consciousness, you might be presenting a case of conscious experience in the absence of the physical processes of consciousness. However, I would have to ask the same question as Seivtcho. How do you know that your father was conscious? If he was conversing with you, then there may have been something wrong with the monitors. If he was conversing with you and there were truly no physical processes of consciousness going on, then there was some supernatural intervention with physical events going on. If he was not giving any physical indications of consciousness whatever, then you would have no way to know that he had conscious experience in your presence except by special revelation.

 

So called Near death experiences are not all that unique.  The monitors were in the best hospital in the area and there wasn't  and hasn't been any report they were not working. I saw them myself and two doctors signed his death certificate.  He was dead for almost 30 minutes.  All the nurses believed he died.  He came back to life and it took several days before he believed me when i TOLD HIM HE DIED.  He finally told me what happened.  Consciousness and brain are not the same thing.  The body dies.

[shadowhawk]

 

The phenomenal zombie is a thought experiment. It's possible such things cannot exist.

David Chalmers presents the phenomenal zombie as something that is logically possible but may or may not be naturally possible. The only point of the phenomenal zombie concept is to argue that conscious experience is not physical. The validity of the argument does not depend on whether the phenomenal zombie is naturally possible. In practice, many people may regard a lobster as phenomenal zombie. They boil the lobster alive without any regard to the possibility that it may be suffering. They may figure that the lobster's desperate struggle in the boiling water is just a mechanical reaction to its stimulation, without any conscious experience being involved. How would you know?

 

I am a big David Chalmers fan.  I have been following him for years.  Consciousness is a basic part of the cosmos.  It exists and while not physical just look in the mirror.  Hi you.  Cut off any part of your body and you still exist.  In my fathers case it was his flat line brain that was also cut off.  Hi!  Your body rots when it dies.

[Danail Bulgaria]

I know he was conscious because he came back to life after he had been pronounced dead by two doctors and was under double monitors showing everything flat line.  His doctors were Atheists.  Later my dad did not believe me when I told Him he had died.  He knew he hadn't.  When he finally believed me he told me what he had experienced.   If you believe in the existence of infinity tell me how you got here.  Your definition of Hilbert's Hotel is gobbligoop.

 

 

 

My condolences for your father.

 

I got here because I believe people can be immortal (in the meaning of not dying from aging and diseases). So yes, I also believe, that there is an infinity.

 

I have been thinking alot about the near death experiences and how can I explain them from the point of view of an atheist. I reached to the conclusion, that these experiences can be hallucinations of the brain, when it is dying, most probabbly due to combination of memories, fear, oxygen insufiency, and most importantly temporary disrupted neural networks.

Their apearance during the flat lines of the brain encephalogram are a nasty trick, that the nature has given us. They form before the flat lines, but the patient thinks, they have been during the flat lines, because the patient has lost the sense of time during the flat lines.

Here is how it happens, acording to me:

- the brain starts to die.

- the patient looses consciousness. the perception of time is also being lost (it may be lost here or during the comma).

- the near death hallucinations appears BEFORE the flat lines.

- the brain dies temporary (it is possible - a comma). 

- everything stops, including the near death hallucination; the patient looses the sense of time if he hasn't lost it before.

- the flat lines appear on the screen.

- the brain revives (spontaneously after a comma, or starts working again after CPR).

- the patient wakes up with no real idea of the time passed, while (s)he was in a comma. 

- the patient says "While I was death I went through a light tunnel and saw my death relatives..."

- everybody says "Wooow"

[shadowhawk]

  Seivtcho:  I got here because I believe people can be immortal (in the meaning of not dying from aging and diseases). So yes, I also believe, that there is an infinity.

 This does not explain how you overcame an infinite past to get to the present.  Evidence totally lacking.  Belief does not make the tooth fairy real.  

 

  I have been thinking alot about the near death experiences and how can I explain them from the point of view of an atheist. I reached to the conclusion, that these experiences can be hallucinations of the brain, when it is dying, most probabbly due to combination of memories, fear, oxygen insufiency, and most importantly temporary disrupted neural networks.

Their apearance during the flat lines of the brain encephalogram are a nasty trick, that the nature has given us. They form before the flat lines, but the patient thinks, they have been during the flat lines, because the patient has lost the sense of time during the flat lines.

Lala.  Evidence.

 

  Here is how it happens, acording to me:
- the brain starts to die.
- the patient looses consciousness. the perception of time is also being lost (it may be lost here or during the comma).
- the near death hallucinations appears BEFORE the flat lines.
- the brain dies temporary (it is possible - a comma).
- everything stops, including the near death hallucination; the patient looses the sense of time if he hasn't lost it before.
- the flat lines appear on the screen.
- the brain revives (spontaneously after a comma, or starts working again after CPR).
- the patient wakes up with no real idea of the time passed, while (s)he was in a comma.
- the patient says "While I was death I went through a light tunnel and saw my death relatives..."
- everybody says "Wooow"

Sounds like it is based on you.  I saw the flat lines before the doctors left.  My father was irritated when they left AFTER things went flat line.  Again just like your belief in a past infinity it is based on nothing.  Evidence.  On the other hand the evidence supports consciousness not being physical.  Atheists need everything to be only physical.  Everything that is only physical dies.  The worm awaits.  Evidence?  Look at everything that dies.  Google “What happens to the body after you die.”  Not a pretty sight.  Wooow!

 

As you age the truth, boss reality, will take over and you will face it.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Oh, I thought you asked how that happened, so I got in the forum.

I am not here from an entire infinity. But what does this has to do with the question of infinity? In an infinite time line, many things may happen, including me.

 

If it does not make you feel sad, explain more about the happening with you father.

He has been in a hospital, right? Connected with devices. Maybe in an intensive care department. What happened from the moments before the flat lines to the first moments after he recovered. If possible write the events one after another like in a step by step manner.

 

What do you mean by "sounds like it is based on me"?

Edited by seivtcho, 26 December 2016 - 11:50 PM.

[shadowhawk]

On a Friday morning my father lost consciousness and fell in his kitchen.  He came to long enough to phone me and dial 911.  They got to him before I did so I went to the hospital where they were working on him all day.  His pulse was under 20 beats a minute.  That went on all day.  20 beats a minute will cause brain damage.  I was outside the ICU where they were working on him.  I could see the monitors through a crack in the door when the nurses and doctors came in and out.  In the evening about 8pm the alarms started ringing and I could see they were flat line.  The way the ICU is set up there is a set of monitors in each operating room and the main central desk serves as a backup and they record everything.  My fathers doctor was the top cardio doctor in the hospital.  The hospital is directly connected with Stanford Medical center.  The Doctor came out and told me they has pronounced my father dead and they had just signed his death certificate.  I spent several minutes crying while the doctor and head nurse told me what had happened the past several hours.  Two chaplains showed up and we all prayed.  asked God to raise my father from the dead not believing He would.  The doctor sent the nurse back to my fathers body to remove all the tubes so I could be with the body.  Several minutes later she came running back yelling "We have a pulse."  The doctor almost fell on the floor in shock.  They worked on my father for about another hour.  Then they allowed me to go in with my dad after telling me he would be brain dead from lack of oxygen.  He was dead for 25 to 30 minutes.

[Danail Bulgaria]

Is it possible the flat lines to have been ECG (electrocardiogram) instead of EEG (electroencephalogram)?

 

Thats definately an interesting case. The death and the process of dying are not quite clear for the medical science today (2016). There are rare cases of people spontaneously reviving after being death and after many unsuccessfull reviving attempts.

The most unexplained recorded case I know of, is the case of a currently working professor in Bulgaria, who was operated, died during the operation, the corpse was placed in the morgue, and the proffessor revived two days after being in the morgue, raised from the cart, and started knocking on the doors to ask whats going on, completely unaware about the time, thinking of being in some post-operation room.

 

It will be a strange question, but was the room cold? If the body temperature drops, while the body thermoregulation is switched off, the brain can sustain hours without an adeqate blood supply. The neurosurgeons and the heart surgeons use this trick to make long operations without a blood supply for the brain.

[platypus]

 

  Seivtcho:  I got here because I believe people can be immortal (in the meaning of not dying from aging and diseases). So yes, I also believe, that there is an infinity.

 This does not explain how you overcame an infinite past to get to the present.  Evidence totally lacking.  Belief does not make the tooth fairy real.  
 

That's a bit thick coming from a theist

[Clifford Greenblatt]

 

 

My father died, flat line brainwaves but he was still conscious.  I saw the double monitor of his brainwaves.  Flat.  How? THIS IS NOT UNIQUE.  Off topic.

If I am reading your question correctly, this seems to be the opposite of the phenomenal zombie concept. Rather than there being no conscious experience in the presence of the physical processes of consciousness, you might be presenting a case of conscious experience in the absence of the physical processes of consciousness. However, I would have to ask the same question as Seivtcho. How do you know that your father was conscious? If he was conversing with you, then there may have been something wrong with the monitors. If he was conversing with you and there were truly no physical processes of consciousness going on, then there was some supernatural intervention with physical events going on. If he was not giving any physical indications of consciousness whatever, then you would have no way to know that he had conscious experience in your presence except by special revelation.

 

So called Near death experiences are not all that unique.  The monitors were in the best hospital in the area and there wasn't  and hasn't been any report they were not working. I saw them myself and two doctors signed his death certificate.  He was dead for almost 30 minutes.  All the nurses believed he died.  He came back to life and it took several days before he believed me when i TOLD HIM HE DIED.  He finally told me what happened.  Consciousness and brain are not the same thing.  The body dies.

 

 

This is quite an amazing event for atheist doctors to personally witness. Were they still atheists afterward?
 

[shadowhawk]

Is it possible the flat lines to have been ECG (electrocardiogram) instead of EEG (electroencephalogram)?

 

Thats definately an interesting case. The death and the process of dying are not quite clear for the medical science today (2016). There are rare cases of people spontaneously reviving after being death and after many unsuccessfull reviving attempts.

The most unexplained recorded case I know of, is the case of a currently working professor in Bulgaria, who was operated, died during the operation, the corpse was placed in the morgue, and the proffessor revived two days after being in the morgue, raised from the cart, and started knocking on the doors to ask whats going on, completely unaware about the time, thinking of being in some post-operation room.

 

It will be a strange question, but was the room cold? If the body temperature drops, while the body thermoregulation is switched off, the brain can sustain hours without an adeqate blood supply. The neurosurgeons and the heart surgeons use this trick to make long operations without a blood supply for the brain.

 

normal here in California 60s - 70s.  Nothing unusual.
 

[shadowhawk]

 

 

  Seivtcho:  I got here because I believe people can be immortal (in the meaning of not dying from aging and diseases). So yes, I also believe, that there is an infinity.

 This does not explain how you overcame an infinite past to get to the present.  Evidence totally lacking.  Belief does not make the tooth fairy real.  
 

That's a bit thick coming from a theist

 

Snarkey comment.  Some things are not real.  Why can't I say this?

[shadowhawk]

 

 

 

My father died, flat line brainwaves but he was still conscious.  I saw the double monitor of his brainwaves.  Flat.  How? THIS IS NOT UNIQUE.  Off topic.

If I am reading your question correctly, this seems to be the opposite of the phenomenal zombie concept. Rather than there being no conscious experience in the presence of the physical processes of consciousness, you might be presenting a case of conscious experience in the absence of the physical processes of consciousness. However, I would have to ask the same question as Seivtcho. How do you know that your father was conscious? If he was conversing with you, then there may have been something wrong with the monitors. If he was conversing with you and there were truly no physical processes of consciousness going on, then there was some supernatural intervention with physical events going on. If he was not giving any physical indications of consciousness whatever, then you would have no way to know that he had conscious experience in your presence except by special revelation.

 

So called Near death experiences are not all that unique.  The monitors were in the best hospital in the area and there wasn't  and hasn't been any report they were not working. I saw them myself and two doctors signed his death certificate.  He was dead for almost 30 minutes.  All the nurses believed he died.  He came back to life and it took several days before he believed me when i TOLD HIM HE DIED.  He finally told me what happened.  Consciousness and brain are not the same thing.  The body dies.

 

 

This is quite an amazing event for atheist doctors to personally witness. Were they still atheists afterward?
 

 

We had an argument, because the Doctor wanted to pull the plug.  I asked him what it was like being the doctor over such a case.  He said his doctor friends were giving him a hard time. 

[Danail Bulgaria]

I wouldn't give him hard time. There are many unexplained medical events with the human body, and if they get explained, the medical science will make a big break-through. I would ask him many questions without blaming him for anything and without giving him a hard time.

[shadowhawk]

Well you know how many Atheists are.  Just read the logical fallacies on the topic, "IS THERE EVIDENCE FOR ATHEISM?"  Typical.  Anything that is only physical dies.

[Danail Bulgaria]

And anything, that is metaphysical is dubious

[shadowhawk]

And anything, that is metaphysical is dubious

 

PROOF.  What are you talking about.  Anything that is only physical dies is not metaphysics.  Tell me a contradiction to this and especially as it relates to our topic.  Evidence.
 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Not me. You are the one, who do not present evidence.

 

You don't accept the evidences for the possibility of scientific resurrection in the distant future, but you didnt give any evidences for how the God's resurrection will work out, even though I asked you.

You wanted me to explain how did I got from the infinte past, but you didn't provide evidencs, that God did it.

 

The belief for the existence of soul is metaphysics. It is dubious.

 

Anything that is only physical CURRENTLY dies. Yes. And when it dies, there is no soul. If there is a soul, it is not you, but a copy of your brain workings.

[shadowhawk]

In fact I am the only one who has overwhelming evidence that everything only physical dies.  As for you. you rot and are eaten by the worm.  That is our topic here Would have could have, should have, fiction is NOT the question.  God is not the subject here though if He was I would be happy to present evidence and we could also examine yours.  You make observations about the soul without any evidence.  You speak of a scientific fiction as if it is a fact.    At the same time you admit my observation is the ONLY FACT PRESENT.  It is!!!!  And you act as if you have evidence there is no soul.  It is off topic here but where is your evidence?  Proof and what are you going to use to prove that?

[Danail Bulgaria]

No. I speack of science fistion as it will be a fact. 

 

And I am on topic. It writes "What do you think happens after death?" 

 

I think it happens a deterministic resurrection. Several millenia from that moment. 

 

I act as if there is no soul, because I don't believe in the soul, and even if it exists, it can be combined with resurrection. If there is a soul, it is a good information for me. I only do not want to rely entirely only on that. 

[shadowhawk]

No. I speack of science fistion as it will be a fact. 

 

And I am on topic. It writes "What do you think happens after death?" 

 

I think it happens a deterministic resurrection. Several millenia from that moment. 

 

I act as if there is no soul, because I don't believe in the soul, and even if it exists, it can be combined with resurrection. If there is a soul, it is a good information for me. I only do not want to rely entirely only on that. 

Can't argue with lala.  Whatever!!!   You will become a butterfly!!!  Why not?

 

[Danail Bulgaria]

Actually, becooming a butterfly after death is not that impossible lol

 

It is called "circulation of substances"

When you die, you get eaten from microbes and worms, and your atoms get inside them. Then something else eats these microbes and worms, or they simply shit out your atoms in the soil. From the soil your atoms go in the plants, some caterpillar then may come and eat your atoms from the leaves of the plant. Then the caterpillar makes a cocoon, and transforms into a butterfly

 

Circulation of substances. You should have learned this in the fifth grade.

 

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