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Mad Cow - I'm Done with Beef/Red Meat


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#61 kevink

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 12:45 AM

Stepping over the green tooth vegetarians versus the blood soaked meat eaters to quietly post...

Remember the part about God refusing Cain's offering of fruits of the soil and accepting Abel's offering of a lamb from his flock?  God favored animal consumption — or people did, depending on whether you're a believer.


Was that because of the substance?...or because of the motivation and intention? The latter of course. The lesson there was about priorities and pure intentions. Not that God likes lamb kabobs. [lol]

Interpretations of scripture evolve.  The common modern interpretation of the swine aphorism is that "swine" are actually just people who aren't (yet) receptive to Christian teachings.  Many of the faithful say that everyone in the human race is thy neighbor.  And if you actually read through the bible, there are TONS of directives that nobody, not even fundamentalists, follow, like the one about not wearing blended fabrics.  So just as with the Constitution, strict constructionism is very much a matter of interpretation, and that's the charitable way of putting it.


As many times as the bible has been "tweaked" by the powers at hand and with as many original documents that were intentionally tucked away and ignored (Jesus’ siblings, his true relationship with Mary Mag., the Romans making sure the Jews were the bad guys in Jesus' death, etc, etc.) - I find it best to stick to the 10 Commandments when discussing the idea of God. There are some that consider most of the modern day bible a series of really bad translations compounded by man's predisposition for the "wrong".

Edited by kevink, 03 February 2006 - 01:21 AM.


#62 rfarris

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 01:48 AM

otherwise there would be alot of dead vegans/vegetarians around

Err...I think there *are* a lot of dead vegans/vegetarians around. They don't live forever, do they? :)

#63 Paul Idol

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 03:41 PM

Kevin-

As many times as the bible has been "tweaked" by the powers at hand and with as many original documents that were intentionally tucked away and ignored (Jesus’ siblings, his true relationship with Mary Mag., the Romans making sure the Jews were the bad guys in Jesus' death, etc, etc.) - I find it best to stick to the 10 Commandments when discussing the idea of God. There are some that consider most of the modern day bible a series of really bad translations compounded by man's predisposition for the "wrong".


But the same is true of the commandments. If you're going to acknowledge that the bible has changed over time, I don't see how you can pick and choose which parts of it you want to look at without at least a compelling argument that certain parts haven't been changed, and AFAIK there's no such compelling argument available.

-Paul

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#64 DukeNukem

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 06:29 PM

Paul, I recommend you read the 2004-released book, The China Study, which has detailed science behind it, and pretty much shows that meat protein is more health harmful than vegetable protein. (Not to mention, that the dairy protein, casein, representing 80% of dairy's protein, is a primary cause of cancer development.) Studies from all around the world are referenced, as well as the author's own extensive research for 25+ years.

I rarely eat red meat nowadays, and for animal meat I only eat free range, non-chemically enhanced turkey (mostly) or chicken breast meat. And I'm a non-pro body builder, who every year continues to improve. I never touch dairy, except pure whey protein (mostly Jay Robb's brand nowadays).

I used to buy into the meat diet, too, having read The Metabolic Diet (I'm a protein type), and many similar diet books. BTW, the Okinawans are the longest lived people on earth, and eat very little meat, mostly fish. And as the China Study showed, worldwide, it's the heaviest meat eaters (and/or dairy eaters) who die of cancer and heart disease the most often. And red meat is the worst offender (perhaps because of the iron content) -- and iron is a serious cancer starter (I take IP-6 every day to eliminate excess iron from my body).

#65 mitkat

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:28 PM

Dare I say...Duke for the win? I'm pleased the nutrition champ came down with a message.

I would just like to dip in and say that even as a fairly hardcore vegetarian (no animals, no fish oils, no milk), I do not impose any moralistic viewpoints on anyone, nor am I a pedantic asshole (i.e ewwww that pepperoni touched my pizza!). I find that kind of behaviour to be condescending, annoying to us all, and generally bad for business. But I also have found it to be in the minority of vegetarians that I know, and I do know a lot.

I am kind of amused by this term "vegetarian propaganda" being thrown around. I've honestly have never heard it before imminst, nor I think that I fully understand it. I find it very ironic that the argument for eating meat, which I see as largely sophistic, would call ANYTHING propoganda. I guess it's easier for Goliath to pick on David and keep it neat and justified (and that's the only thing even close to religious I'm going to say). [lol]

And I just destroyed my first post with this crap trackball mouse, so I'm pretty pissed! [thumb]

#66 kevink

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:47 PM

Kevin-

But the same is true of the commandments.  If you're going to acknowledge that the bible has changed over time, I don't see how you can pick and choose which parts of it you want to look at without at least a compelling argument that certain parts haven't been changed, and AFAIK there's no such compelling argument available.

-Paul


True...but in my mind the 10 C's are "closer" to the original. [wis]

I was trying to speak "Bible based religion" since I assumed it was a common ground. I'm much more familiar with eastern systems. Anyway - thanks for the dialog! [thumb]

#67 Paul Idol

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:13 PM

Duke-

Paul, I recommend you read the 2004-released book, The China Study, which has detailed science behind it, and pretty much shows that meat protein is more health harmful than vegetable protein.  (Not to mention, that the dairy protein, casein, representing 80% of dairy's protein, is a primary cause of cancer development.)  Studies from all around the world are referenced, as well as the author's own extensive research for 25+ years.


Happily, I'm well familiar with that book and can refute it in detail. I don't, unfortunately, have it with me at the moment, though, so my apologies if I get some page numbers or other trivia wrong, but I'm checking everything I can online, so here goes.

On page 66, he says "nutrients from animal-based foods increased tumor development while nutrients from plant-based foods decreased tumor development.” (His emphasis.)

This, however, is after testing the effects of three isolated proteins on cancer — casein from dairy, and protein from wheat and soy — and initially acknowledging that the casein results cannot be generalized to all protein.

How does he justify the generalization from casein to all animal protein, let alone from one animal protein to all animal nutrients? How do you, as a proponent of his work, justify either generalization? Since you consume whey protein, I assume you're aware of its documented anti-cancer and other beneficial effects, so the asserted pro-cancer effect of casein cannot even be generalized to other DAIRY proteins, let alone to all animal proteins and animal nutrients!

Furthermore, Campbell completely fails to acknowledge or discuss the varying effects different means of processing have on casein proteins and therefore on their physiological impact. This study alone, Changes in protein nutritional quality in fresh and recombined ultra high temperature treated milk during storage, demonstrates that there are significant physiological differences worth looking into. High-temperature spray drying, which I know is commonly used to prepare casein, is documented to form carcinogens in some proteins, though I'm not sure offhand whether it's documented to do so with casein. But what kind of casein did Campbell look at? We don't know.

But wait, there's more.

Much of Campbell's work involved protein isolates and/or concentrates. Protein assimilation and metabolism, as you may know, requires vitamin A (actual vitamin A, not carotenes). Consumption of large amounts of protein in isolate and/or concentrate form depletes vitamin A without providing necessary accompanying dietary vitamin A, and real vitamin A, perhaps not coincidentally, has many anti-cancer effects.

One of the serious faults of the actual epidemiological China Study (which is only one subject of many in Campbell's book) is that nutrient intakes were determined from standard food composition tables, not measurements of the foods themselves. There's overwhelming evidence that farming methods and soil quality dramatically affect the nutritional content and quality of foods. Price demonstrated it. Albrecht demonstrated it. Voisin demonstrated it. There are recent comparisons between organic and conventional produce demonstrating that organic produce tends to be more nutritious. Etc. etc. etc.

Furthermore, the food recall questionnaire didn't distinguish at all between categories like muscle meats and organ meats, shellfish and fish, despite the radically different nutritional profiles of those different kinds of foods. In fact, organ meats — powerhouses of nutrition — weren't mentioned at all, and neither were other traditional foods like insects. And despite deliberately seeking out rural towns to examine, no account of seasonal variation was made; responses were collected only in autumn.

And most importantly, the actual data doesn't resemble the reporting of it.

Here's a table of actual correlations between different macronutrients and cancer taken from the original China Study paper courtesy of
Chris Masterjohn's review of the book, from which I'm shamelessly cribbing.

Associations of Selected Variables with Mortality for All Cancers in the China Study
Total Protein +12%
Animal Protein +3%
Fish Protein +7%
Plant Protein +12%
Total Lipids -6%
Carbohydrates +23%
Total Calories +16%
Fat % Calories -17%
Fiber +21%
Fat (questionnaire) -29%

The only statistically significant correlation on the entire list is the protective (i.e. anti-cancer) effect of total fat intake!

Whoops!

Unfortunately, this sort of distortion is all too common. Abstracts and conclusions of studies — and the reporting thereof in the press — all too often say one thing while the actual data in the actual studies say another thing entirely.

Anyway...

On page 89 of his book, Campbell states that "Every single animal protein-related blood biomarker is significantly associated with the amount of cancer in a family". In the endnotes, on page 376, he identifies the biomarkers as "plasma copper, urea nitrogen, estradiol, prolactin, testosterone, and, inversely, sex hormone binding globulin, each of which has been known to be associated with animal protein intake from previous studies", but he doesn't identify the studies, so we don't know why, where, when, and in whom those biomarkers were correlated with animal protein intake. Without that information, the association he makes between these biomarkers and the food intake patterns of the Chinese people he studied is completely meaningless, because different groups of people have different patterns of food intake and therefore different correlations between biomarkers and their food consumption!

Why is he using those biomarkers instead of the actual food consumption data he himself collected, some of which are displayed above, when his own actual data contradicts the conclusion he draws from spurious and unspecified biomarker correlations? I won't speculate, but a few possible answers present themselves pretty readily.

Campbell also cites Ornish's program as proof that a vegetarian diet can reverse heart disease, but Ornish himself has been forced to concede that he can't prove any correlation between his results and the dietary component of his program, which includes many more elements, particularly stress management.

Another whoops.

He indicts casein without distinguishing between A1 and A2 casein (here's one study to get you started, Health Implications of Milk Containing beta-Casein with the A(2) Genetic Variant) let alone the various different related proteins lumped together under the umbrella term "casein" and without acknowledging the non-trivial body of evidence that suggests that dairy consumption might actually prevent diabetes (Low-fat dairy foods may help reduce risk of type 2 diabetes) and he makes no mention of the role gluten may play in diabetes and autoimmune diseases (here's just one study of many: Diabetes preventive gluten-free diet decreases the number of caecal bacteria in non-obese diabetic mice).

On page 220, he makes the spectacularly misleading assertion that "Folic acid is a compound derived exclusively from plant-based foods such as green and leafy vegetables" when even the most cursory stroll through available nutritional data demonstrates that many animal foods are very rich in folate. Raw beef liver, for example, contains 290mcg per 100g, and raw duck liver has 738mcg per 100g. Those numbers compare quite favorably with the 281mcg per 100g for wheat germ, crude, and the 658mcg per 100g for Yardlong beans, mature seeds, raw, the most folate-dense legume I could find.

Perhaps he's not aware that folic acid is the synthetic form of folate which is added to supplements and fortified foods and that neither the animal nor the vegetable kingdoms have anything remotely resembling a monopoly on actual folate. Or perhaps he's being disingenuous. I won't bother trying to guess.

I could go on, but I think I've made my point pretty effectively, and Chris Masterjohn's review goes into some of the subjects I've covered in greater depth anyway.

I used to buy into the meat diet, too, having read The Metabolic Diet (I'm a protein type), and many similar diet books.  BTW, the Okinawans are the longest lived people on earth, and eat very little meat, mostly fish.  And as the China Study showed, worldwide, it's the heaviest meat eaters (and/or dairy eaters) who die of cancer and heart disease the most often.  And red meat is the worst offender (perhaps because of the iron content) -- and iron is a serious cancer starter (I take IP-6 every day to eliminate excess iron from my body).


Do you mean Wolcott's The Metabolic Typing Diet? Because that's a crap book. It makes a million and one completely unsubstantiated statements and mischaracterizes some of the foundational research (e.g. Price's) that the author refers to. Utter garbage, though I guess as fiction it's a good read.

Incidentally, if you speak to the nutritionist who helped Wolcott write his book, you'll find that the real MTD recommendations for many people actually include a lot more fat. A friend of mine, who just like you and me registers as a protein type, spoke with her and was told he should be getting at least 60% of his calories from fat. He had very much the same experience with Barry Sears and the Zone diet. A few years ago, he'd been following Sears, and when he developed trouble sticking to it he spoke to Sears' office and was told (you guessed it) to eat a lot more fat.

Quite interesting.

But back to the topic at hand. (DOWN, Tangent Man, DOWN!) The Okinawan diet is also widely mischaracterized. In addition to lots of seafood, the Okinawans traditionally consumed lots of fatty pork. Here's an excerpt from an article on traditional Asian diets.

And what do Okinawans eat? The main meat of the diet is pork, and not the lean cuts only. Okinawan cuisine, according to gerontologist Kazuhiko Taira, "is very healthy—and very, very greasy," in a 1996 article that appeared in Health Magazine.19And the whole pig is eaten—everything from "tails to nails." Local menus offer boiled pigs feet, entrail soup and shredded ears. Pork is cooked in a mixture of soy sauce, ginger, kelp and small amounts of sugar, then sliced and chopped up for stir fry dishes. Okinawans eat about 100 grams of meat per day—compared to 70 in Japan and just over 20 in China—and at least an equal amount of fish, for a total of about 200 grams per day, compared to 280 grams per person per day of meat and fish in America. Lard—not vegetable oil—is used in cooking.

...

19. Deborah Franklyn, "Take a Lesson from the People of Okinawa," Health, September 1996, pp 57-63


So perhaps you should rethink the conclusions you draw from the Okinawan diet, not to mention your faith in Campbell's grossly erroneous book.

-Paul

#68 Paul Idol

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:14 PM

Mitkat-

Dare I say...Duke for the win?


Not until you read my response! :)

-Paul

#69 Paul Idol

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:15 PM

Kevin-

I was trying to speak "Bible based religion" since I assumed it was a common ground. I'm much more familiar with eastern systems. Anyway - thanks for the dialog!


Right back atcha! I'm not sure why the subject interests me as much as it does, since I'm an atheist. Maybe it was being raised Catholic for a time, serving as an altar boy, etc.

-Paul

#70 mitkat

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 11:28 PM

Not until you read my response!  :)

-Paul


Haha! Touche, for sure.. that is why I dared not speak it for certain! Good argument, and you raise many good points, and they raised my eyebrows some. But between my improved health after becoming a vegetarian, and the massive international environmental problems caused by the enormous beef industry, I'll never eat meat again. :)

#71 kevink

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 12:18 PM

I'm totally staying out of this...in case that wasn't clear...but given mitkat's comments...I had to put this out there.

This is from AOR's "Vegetarian Booster" information. I am not presenting it as fact - only that this is THEIR commentary and the page they state it on also has references listed.

As a side note, I thought the list of the things they consider needing "boosted" in vegetarians was very interesting.

http://aor.ca/relate...ian_booster.php

Possibly the most famous vegetarians are the Hunzas in the Himalayas that are strict vegetarians with a reported lifespan often reaching 100 years. In the Indian subcontinent, vegetarianism has been common for over two thousand years, and still today, 70% of the world’s vegetarians are in India. In 2003, 4% of Canadians were vegetarians and 2.5% of Americans avoided meat. The popularity of such diets is increasing and the choices both in supermarkets and in restaurants for vegetarians are improving.

It is the position of the American and Canadian Dietetic association that such diets can meet all nutritional needs and that well planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence.

There are several advantages to vegetarian diets. On a nutritional level, they contain far less saturated fat, cholesterol and of course animal protein. They also provide higher levels of fiber, carbohydrates, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamin C and E. A higher intake of vegetables, fruits, grains, legumes and nuts has been linked to a lower risk of several chronic diseases and reduces mortality risk. Vegetarians are less prone to cardiovascular problems, suffer less from obesity, have lower levels of blood cholesterol, lower blood pressure, and are less likely to develop diabetes or colon and prostate cancer.

Furthermore, vegetarian lifestyles are considered to be one of the most effective ways of reaching sustainability of food and proper nutrition worldwide. Indeed, 40% of the current world grain production is fed to animals and it is estimated that half of that grain would be enough to feed all the hungry people in the world. Land requirements for the production of animal protein is 10 times greater than the land needed for plant based protein production. When it comes to nutrition ecology, vegetarianism is a good choice.



#72 xanadu

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 06:30 PM

Yes, very true, kevink. And add to that the fact you avoid the hormones, antibiotics and other substances given to meat animals and you are way better off. Plus your risk of mad cow goes from small to zero. Since prion mediated diseases can take decades to show up, we have no way of knowing if a tidal wave of mad cow is going to hit us down the road. Veggies rule!

#73 Paul Idol

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 08:05 PM

How about "facts rule" and "let the chips fall where they may"?

-Paul

#74 Shepard

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 08:09 PM

I think Ori should solve this for us:

Something along the lines of vegetarians are healthy, but don't harness their inner warrior, leading to long, boring, sex-less lives.

#75 ajnast4r

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 08:10 PM

Veggies rule!



word [thumb]

#76 mitkat

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 09:15 PM

I think Ori should solve this for us:

Something along the lines of vegetarians are healthy, but don't harness their inner warrior, leading to long, boring, sex-less lives.


i can help solve it, shepard! i "heart" sex. [thumb] it may be crass, but dammit, it's true! i can get pretty alpha male at times, also. very....veggie machismo [tung]

#77 ajnast4r

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 12:10 AM

haha im also a veggie alpha-male...

#78 kevink

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 05:37 PM

Just adding this related information for "completeness" and as a "heads up" about the USDA not providing the whole story (seems like a pattern across many industries).

The Washington Post reports...

Agriculture Department officials overruled field scientists' recommendation to retest an animal that was suspected of harboring mad cow disease last year because they feared a positive finding would undermine confidence in the agency's testing procedures...


After protests from the inspector general, the specimen was sent to England for retesting and produced the nation's second confirmed case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE), also known as mad cow disease.


The report details why scientists at the National Veterinary Services Laboratories concluded that a sample from a Texas animal should be tested with other techniques following initial inconclusive findings. It adds that top officials at the USDA's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) told them not to do the additional tests.


The report also found that although there was no evidence that infected meat had made it into the human food chain, the USDA surveillance system did not collect the information needed to say whether slaughterhouses were following all mad cow-related regulations. In nine of 12 facilities visited, the report said, inadequate recordkeeping made it impossible to know whether proper procedures were being followed.


http://www.washingto...6020202240.html




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