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Mad Cow - I'm Done with Beef/Red Meat


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#1 maestro949

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 03:39 PM


Another case found in Canada last week. I've heard enough. I'm suspicious that cases in the US are not being reported or are being under-reported.

I've cut back on red meat over the past several years but still love an occasional burger or steak as a treat but I'm going cold turkey, warm too. Has anyone else decided to quit for this reason alone?

#2 Brainbox

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:51 PM

Yes, I did. I gradually switched to a almost-vegetarian diet. The meat industry with al its quality issues just is not good enough for me. Period. I occasionally eat meat though when I'm eating out. Pragmatic as ever... :)

#3 ajnast4r

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:57 PM

vegetarianism for the win

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#4 mitkat

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:00 PM

I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years now and have never had any regrets over my decision, nor am I ever tempted to eat meat. With the mad cow scares, it makes me feel that it was an even better decision (not that it needs any validation) :)

#5 xanadu

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:06 PM

It's not just the long shot of mad cow, there is also the issue of hormones, antibiotics and other crap fed to cows and all meat animals. How much fiber do you get with your steak?

#6 Mind

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:10 PM

I am not afraid of mad cow. To me it is just a scare story. How long have humans been consuming animal flesh, maybe a million years?

#7 Paul Idol

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:24 PM

Mind-

I completely agree. This is ludicrous.

Now, being careful about the source and quality of meat? That's another thing entirely. But it's an important part of the diet we evolved on.

-Paul

#8 Brainbox

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:28 PM

I am not afraid of mad cow. To me it is just a scare story. How long have humans been consuming animal flesh, maybe a million years?


Since when are living beings being fed with the tissues of their own kind and used for food in a massive industrial way? [huh]

Edit: typo

Edited by brainbox, 31 January 2006 - 09:39 PM.


#9 Mind

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:33 PM

I understand your point brainbox. The industrial production and preservation of meat is not the same as what occurred in nature over years past. Still, I am not sold on the huge scare story. There are just too many scare stories circulating in popular culture (with scant evidence). If I believed every one I would probably be dead from stress by now.

#10 Brainbox

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 07:39 PM

Mind, you're sure right about that. And maybe this stress is the cause so many people eat lots of this scary stuff and become heavily overweight ... [lol]

#11 the big b

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:02 PM

Well I personally stick to chicken only, can't catch anything through that... :)

#12 kevink

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 10:12 PM

Well I personally stick to chicken only, can't catch anything through that... :)


I do the poultry thing too. Ironically, I never liked beef anyway - except as a burger.

As for Mad Cow, it's scary, but seems extremely unlikely...

So far, 153 people worldwide have contracted vCJD, with one case in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

...from a 2004 CNN report.

I was vegetarian for a few years. Couldn't pull it off without feeling unhealthy. Plus I was the only vegetarian that absolutely hated vegetables...on top of all the "soy may be bad for you" news started coming out as well and I was eating a lot of soy products. If I had put greater effort into "doing it right", I'm sure I could have felt great on a veg diet.

Ethically - I'd love to be vegetarian - so hats off to those of you doing it for that reason (at least in part).

I'm curious - do the vegetarians on this board use fish oil supps?

#13 xanadu

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 10:23 PM

I notice everyone is dodging the issue of antibiotics, and hormones, among other things that are fed to food animals. Or are you going to tell me you only buy meat from special sources that are free from those thing? Your chances of getting mad cow are low, though certainly not zero, but your chances of getting crap like that at the grocery store are near certainty.

Then there is the fact that eating at the top of the food chain exposes you to contaminants which are concentrated in your food. Predators in nature always are exposed to more diseases and contaminants from the environment. If veggies have one part per billion of pcb, then the animals who eat veggies will have perhaps 100 parts per billion in their tissues. Would you rather eat the 1ppb or 100 ppb of pcb? I'm picking numbers out of the air and the multiplying factors are often much more than 100/1.

But if all that is too rational, just call me names and pretend you disproved it.

#14 Paul Idol

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:09 PM

Xanadu-

I notice everyone is dodging the issue of antibiotics, and hormones, among other things that are fed to food animals.


I guess the part where I said "Now, being careful about the source and quality of meat? That's another thing entirely." counts as a dodge in your book?

Or are you going to tell me you only buy meat from special sources that are free from those thing? Your chances of getting mad cow are low, though certainly not zero, but your chances of getting crap like that at the grocery store are near certainty.


Ding-ding-ding-ding! I buy grass-fed organic beef, lamb, bison, and other meats, primarily at the farmers market where I know the farmers and can talk to them about their husbandry and agronomic practices. And when I get meat from a farm in bulk to save money (I have a separate freezer) I talk to the farmer first and do what research I can.

Then there is the fact that eating at the top of the food chain exposes you to contaminants which are concentrated in your food. Predators in nature always are exposed to more diseases and contaminants from the environment. If veggies have one part per billion of pcb, then the animals who eat veggies will have perhaps 100 parts per billion in their tissues. Would you rather eat the 1ppb or 100 ppb of pcb? I'm picking numbers out of the air and the multiplying factors are often much more than 100/1.


I'd rather eat the diet my species evolved to eat that's full of the nutrients my body needs so that it can better handle what pollutants it's actually exposed to. A friend of mine wrote an excellent article on one aspect of your question. It's called Dioxins in Animal Foods: A Case For Vegetarianism? and I highly recommend that you read it.

But if all that is too rational, just call me names and pretend you disproved it.


OK, you post non-reader you.

-Paul

#15 Mind

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:15 PM

I also understand the point about hormones, antibiotics, and concetration of contaminants. If all of these things were extremely bad, then I don't think the average lifespan would be 75 and rising. The vast majority of people are eating junk food filled with fat, sugar, hormones, salt, chemicals, and what not. If it was really "poison" you would think the average lifespan would be decreasing rather rapidly by now. Still I applaud all of you who avoid as many chemicals and unnatural products as possible. I know it is tough to do and sometimes quite expensive. I imagine you will be able to squeeze out a couple more healthy years by doing it.

One more thing, from a societal perspective, modern farming techniques have freed millions of people around the world from the back-breaking labor of farming. When I say back-breaking, I mean it literally. Farming is one of the most dangerous professions around. I have experience in these matters. I grew up on a small dairy farm, and it was difficult at times. I got up at 4 am to work in the barn, then I went to school. When I got home I worked for another 3 hours until about 8 at night. I feel I am a better person for it, but I know most people do not wish for such a lifestyle. Evidence for this is how rapidly new labor saving farming techniques are adopted and accepted. People just don't want to shovel manure and dig dirt to earn their keep. They would much rather go to the grocery store and buy the food, even if it isn't the most healthy stuff in the world. Instead of farming people are free to engage in life extension research, and I am pretty happy about that.

#16 Paul Idol

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:24 PM

Mind-

I also understand the point about hormones, antibiotics, and concetration of contaminants. If all of these things were extremely bad, then I don't think the average lifespan would be 75 and rising. The vast majority of people are eating junk food filled with fat, sugar, hormones, salt, chemicals, and what not. If it was really "poison" you would think the average lifespan would be decreasing rather rapidly by now.


I think you should consider the fact that the extreme contamination of our meat supply we "enjoy" today is only a relatively recent development.

Also, modern degenerative diseases are in fact increasingly dramatically. Have you seen some of the projections for diabetes? They're insane!

That said, you're right to lay the blame on junk food. The proliferation of unhealthy vegetable oils, partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, and sugar and starch in everything has been extremely dramatic.

-Paul

#17 maestro949

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:31 PM

I am not afraid of mad cow. To me it is just a scare story. How long have humans been consuming animal flesh, maybe a million years?


Well it has scared me and it should scare you too. My biggest concern is that meat processing plants that render meat into hamburger sausage and even food for other animals. Imagine a mad cow being mashed up with 20,000 other non mad cows. All it's nasty little misfolded prions are now scattered throughout the entire batch of meat ultimately getting eaten by you and I. The rest is history and so are those who have been unlucky enough to eat a BSE burger. Our ancestors didn't have to worry about the rare chance of encountering the one cow that was mad as the chances are so low. Even if he did, he was the only that would be affected. Not the 20,000 people who ate the rendered cow.

A quick google search yielded this...

http://chetday.com/cannibal.htm

Enough said as far as I'm concerned.

#18 ajnast4r

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Posted 31 January 2006 - 11:56 PM

curious - do the vegetarians on this board use fish oil supps?
 


technically a vegetarian doesnt eat any parts of the animal, so no... you cant really be a vegetarian and take fishoil.

mind
. If all of these things were extremely bad, then I don't think the average lifespan would be 75 and rising. The vast majority of people are eating junk food filled with fat, sugar, hormones, salt, chemicals, and what not. If it was really "poison" you would think the average lifespan would be decreasing rather rapidly by now.


i think that statement borders on rediculous... the average lifespan is increasing, but teh quality of that lifespan is decreasing. what good is living 100+ years if you become diseased and start to break down at 50... the vast majority of people have one more more serious/chronic health issues by the age of 40.

its crazy to hear an imminst member argue that junkfood/chemicals/refined food isntr a bad thing.

#19 emerson

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 12:28 AM

technically a vegetarian doesnt eat any parts of the animal, so no... you cant really be a vegetarian and take fishoil.


That's the catagory I fall under. I was a vegitarian for quite a few years, but the evidence for fish oil's benefits is mounting fast enough that I went on board with it. It's still the only animal product I eat, but it throws me right out of the vegitarian catagory. Though I still identify myself as such just to avoid spending ten minutes explaining my food choices when asked over for dinner.

#20 xanadu

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:32 AM

There are degrees of vegetarianism. There are the 100% strict vegans but just because someone has a little fish oil, that doesn't put them in the same catagory as a meat eater. To me that's more of a theoretical thing. I know that a little bit of fish oil is not going to contaminate me. That's what I care about, not being true to some theory of how we should be. I'm a vegetarian out of practicality and take my fish because they are good for you. I'd estimate that fish oil is purer than much of the food you eat so what is the problem except from a theoretical point of view?

Paul Idol, I didn't say you were the one dodging the issue. You did make a passing referrence to it. Many of the others were and still are taking those points lightly. I'm glad you are able to eat organically. I'm sure that's better than a regular meat eating diet. How many people are in a position as you seem to be where they can verify every step of the process that their food went through? Or be able to afford it? I still prefer my diet to yours but yours is cleaner than most.

"I'd rather eat the diet my species evolved to eat"

Humans evolved as omnivores. That means (as you know) that we can eat either veggies or meat or both. We do not require meat, that means we are not full carnivores. We are optional carnivores.

Mind wrote:

" I also understand the point about hormones, antibiotics, and concetration of contaminants. If all of these things were extremely bad, then I don't think the average lifespan would be 75 and rising."

Lifespan is rising because of a number of things. There is improved medical care, improved diet and greater safeguards against hazards. Large numbers used to die in the old days from plagues and simple things like the flu. Millions died of starvation every year that don't die now. That does not prove that our diet is the correct one.

#21 ajnast4r

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 01:56 AM

There are degrees of vegetarianism. There are the 100% strict vegans but just because someone has a little fish oil, that doesn't put them in the same catagory as a meat eater. To me that's more of a theoretical thing. I know that a little bit of fish oil is not going to contaminate me. That's what I care about, not being true to some theory of how we should be. I'm a vegetarian out of practicality and take my fish because they are good for you. I'd estimate that fish oil is purer than much of the food you eat so what is the problem except from a theoretical point of view?


im a vegetarian for ethical reasons... the health benefits are just an added bonus lol

ill stick with my flax oil :)

#22 xanadu

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 03:22 AM

ajnast wrote:

"im a vegetarian for ethical reasons... the health benefits are just an added bonus lol"

I can respect that. I know some belief systems such as buddhism prescribe strict vegetarianism. I'm just saying my motives are more prosaic. I'm concerned with health and the fact that it helps avoid harm to animals is a bonus.

#23 ajnast4r

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 04:48 AM

hehe my ethical reasoning is derived from spiritual/religious reasoning... very similar to buddhism.

#24 Mind

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 07:41 AM

its crazy to hear an imminst member argue that junkfood/chemicals/refined food isntr a bad thing.


You missed the context. I admitted it was bad for health. I was saying that it isn't "poison", in the same category of arsenic, strychnine, or 18 molar sulfuric acid.

There are a thousand websites proclaiming everything from chlorinated water to teflon to red meat is the WORST stuff in the world and causes EVERY disease known to man. Reading these scare stories you would think 90 percent of American would drop dead by the time they are 10, but they don't. They slowly feel the effects of their bad diet choices after 60 or 70 years.

#25 maestro949

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 09:34 AM

They slowly feel the effects of their bad diet choices after 60 or 70 years.


You're talking averages but who knows how many people die prematurly because of the one trace industrial toxin that triggered a carcenogenic response or mad cow prion that destroyed them. On average people ARE living longer due to advances in tech, health care and even food standards but that average would be even much higher if we could also purify our food, water and air supply.

I can imagine a study 30 years from now where someone argues that only 25 percent of people over 100 drank distilled water, ate organic foods and moved away from heavily poluted cities. The flaw in a simple statistic like this that it doesn't measure the survival rate of those who did choose a proactive life of healthy living vs. those who didn't.

#26 Paul Idol

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 02:41 PM

Xanadu-

Humans evolved as omnivores. That means (as you know) that we can eat either veggies or meat or both. We do not require meat, that means we are not full carnivores. We are optional carnivores.


That's the popular interpretation, but it's incorrect. We require animal foods for optimal health — and we require them in non-trivial amounts. I'll make my usual recommendation: read Dr. Weston A. Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration. It's fascinating.

It's certainly possible to be a lot healthier on certain kinds of vegetarian diets than a lot of people eating the SAD are, but that's not really saying much.

-Paul

#27 Paul Idol

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 02:45 PM

Mind-

Reading these scare stories you would think 90 percent of American would drop dead by the time they are 10, but they don't. They slowly feel the effects of their bad diet choices after 60 or 70 years.


Well, no, I'm afraid I disagree with you there. People are feeling the effects of their bad diet choices at younger and younger ages as the quality of our food supply declines and people make more and more bad choices. Just look at the rising epidemic of childhood obesity, and the increase of diabetes!

I certainly agree that meat, even craptastic factory farm meat, is among the least of those bad choices, and most decent grocery store meat is better than no meat at all, but that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to get the best meat you can.

-Paul

#28 JonesGuy

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 04:38 PM

Well, I'm a vegetarian for ecological reasons, but I will eat meat sometimes (when's it's made for me by someone, or when I buy organic buffalo). I don't feel bad about eating animals, because growing up on a farm makes eating animals part of every day living.

I certainly try to avoid processed meats, but I try to get enough fish that I don't worry about lacking essential oils.

#29 kevink

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 05:11 PM

Since it seems a few people here are involved in a spiritual/religious pursuit, I was just throwing this out there as food for thought [lol]

hehe my ethical reasoning is derived from spiritual/religious reasoning... very similar to buddhism.


There are MANY buddhists (real old school ones too) that eat meat. Especially from a Tibetan point of view, the harshness of the terrain did not lend itself to a constant meatless existence. But they will protect all things - like saving the earth worms before they dig or saying prayers for any unseen insects they might step on as they walk...so their respect for life is ultimately high.

In Buddhism (Mahayana lineage) every action must be done for the greatest good possible...to end suffering for countless sentient beings, and the only way for any of those beings to end their own suffering is by evolving into our ultimate form - a Buddha. To describe how to do that is something like 4,000(?) texts (Tibetan tradition) so I'm sure I'm screwing up my point...

...but the bottom line is that I've seen high level, old time Buddhists that have switched diets based upon a doctor (Eastern and/or Western) telling them they are going to get sick and die sooner if they don't (they believe Tibetan medicine deals with both the physical body and the unseen body energy pathways we all have...long story). On the outside it looks like they're being self-centered and selfish by starting to eat meat. The reality is that they don't want to do it, but they have devoted their lives to serving all living beings in every realm of existence that there is. So eating some meat would actually be an act of kindness since their motivation for doing it is to continue to strive to save countless beings from torment and suffering as quickly as possible.

All that was to say - from a "spiritual/religious reasoning", I agree that vegetarianism is the best choice for spiritual reasons. I hear you on the fish oil point too and of course it's the valid strict definition. And of course we're not talking about something as anti-spiritual as hunting and killing it yourself. However, vegetarianism is not a spiritual path in and of itself...it's only part of one. If being completely vegetarian gets in the way of your "prime directive", then it has to be modified. Not doing so is probably anti-spiritual when you think about it.

The trick is knowing when that's actually true, versus "just wanting a cheeseburger". [thumb]

So, by definition, you're right that taking a fish oil supp means you're not a vegetarian, but I think someone could take a fish oil supp and actually be more spiritual/religious than a complete vegan. It all depends on the purity of the motivation and not entirely on the resultant action.

On a side note - Even as a vegetarian, the supps and other things we use have come at a great cost. Not to be a downer, but many animals have been subjected to unspeakable pain and suffering, effectively tortured, just so you and I know to "take X amount of supp Y". So even if someone were vegan and taking supps, they should (pause/pray/reflect/whatever) every time they throw a pill or powder into their mouth.

I'm not trying to start a belief system debate! Just throwing some "different" aspects out into the ether.

Sorry to take this ship so far off course! I think I see Gilligan and the Skipper.

...it helps avoid harm to animals is a bonus.

Yeah that's true - and I wish more people would expand their minds to care more about animals suffering. But since most of us can't even care about other humans beyond our immediate circle of "loved ones", that's a long way off. The "us" and "them" way of thinking does more to harm us than any food we eat.

Reading these scare stories...

I guess it all comes down to that. If that's 0%, the other end is 100% "it's all true". I suppose most reasonable people are at varying levels depending on the topic.

#30 Paul Idol

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Posted 01 February 2006 - 05:34 PM

Kevin-

And of course we're not talking about something as anti-spiritual as hunting and killing it yourself.


I think it's interesting that a lot of people feel that way, because many cultures believed the opposite. They felt a spiritual connection to nature and to the animals they hunted, killed and ate, and that tended to encourage a healthy respect for the delicate balance of nature. If anything, I think it's becoming completely divorced from the reality of where meat comes from by buying it in little plastic-wrapped packages in grocery stores that leads us to tolerate problems like the grossly inhumane conditions in factory farms.

I'm not saying we should all go back to being hunter-gatherers, but a much more localized system of agriculture and pasture-based animal husbandry would have tremendous benefits, including reduced fuel consumption and pollution from transportation, vastly more humane treatment of livestock, improvements in the nutritional quality of our food supply, better and more sustainable use of our land, a return to paying farmers enough to make a living, and a greater connection to and understanding of the sources of our food.

-Paul




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