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Cryonics and the soul

cryonics soul afterlife

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#1 Hip

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:20 AM


For anyone who subscribes to the possibility of a soul and an afterlife, how does the event of your Earthly body being reawakened several centuries after your (first) death fit into this metaphysics? 

 

If you die and your soul is now inhabiting the afterlife, and is having a whale of a time in that afterlife, what happens to that soul when the body it came from is reanimated out from cryonic storage? Is your soul suddenly plucked out of the afterlife, and reinserted into the body? Or does the reanimated body get fitted out with a new soul, so that you as a soul can remain happy ensconced in the afterlife state?

 

If you are having a really good time in the afterlife, might you be a bit pissed off by having to return to the (perhaps hedonistically inferior) physical world when your body is reawakened after centuries?


Edited by Hip, 20 January 2017 - 06:22 AM.


#2 YOLF

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 05:16 PM

Cryonicists have developed a term called "chronopause" for other purposes which might explain it. They are "ametabolic" or not metabolic during this time and therefore and all functions come to a halt, they do not consider themselves to have died. Since the soul inhabits the body, it is frozen and inactive just as the body and reawakens with it.

 

Death is something that happens only under very extreme conditions for a cryonicist, or where their body does not get preserved.


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#3 seivtcho

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:47 PM

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 



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#4 N.T.M.

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 07:10 PM

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 

 

I would assume so. If you look at the word it basically means "time frozen" (paused).


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#5 Hip

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:14 PM

Cryonicists have developed a term called "chronopause" for other purposes which might explain it. They are "ametabolic" or not metabolic during this time and therefore and all functions come to a halt, they do not consider themselves to have died. Since the soul inhabits the body, it is frozen and inactive just as the body and reawakens with it.

 

If we use the Hameroff-Penrose microtubule theory of quantum consciousness to guide our analysis here, and we assume that the soul resides within these quantum computing and quantum informational aspects of the brain predicted by this theory, then a lack of oxygen and the resultant cessation of energy production in the cells will spell the collapse of these quantum informational state of the brain.

 

This is because under normal circumstances, large-scale macroscopic quantum states (such as those Hameroff and Penrose propose exist in the brain) tend only to appear at extremely cold temperatures, close to absolute zero. At higher temperatures, the thermal noise of vibrating atoms destroys any macroscopic quantum state. Macroscopic quantum states can normally only exist under the totally placid, thermal noise free conditions.

 

But according to the Hameroff-Penrose theory, cells use a very clever approach to create macroscopic quantum states in the brain even at the high temperatures (compared to absolute zero) of the body tissues. This approach is called a pumped energy system, whereby you use a constant flow of energy to dampen the thermal noise of vibrating atoms, and in this way, you facilitate a macroscopic quantum state in the brain at body temperature.  

 

This pumped energy system is posited to reside within the interiors of the microtubules in the cells of the body.  It allows the interiors of the microtubules to be a calm and placid, analogous to the mirror-like surface of a lake when there is no wind blowing to churn up the water.

 

However, as soon as the energy supply in the cells is cut off, this pumped energy system fails, and thermal noise then takes over, like throwing thousands of stones into a lake, churning up the water. So as soon as this pumped energy system fails, the macroscopic quantum state existing in the microtubules will collapse, and is destroyed in the brain. 

 

That I would guess would be the moment any quantum informational soul will leave the brain: at the moment of death, when the pumped energy system fails, and the macroscopic quantum state in the brain collapses.

 

 

However, there is an information exchange between the macroscopic quantum state inside the hollow cylindrical microtubules, and the molecules in the cylindrical wall of the microtubules (this is how it is proposed that data is exchanged between the quantum state and the rest of the brain; the state of configuration of the molecules in the cylindrical wall of the microtubules encodes information derived from the macroscopic quantum state).

 

So if a body is reanimated centuries after death, and energy production resumes in the cells, so that the pumped energy system can come online again, and recreate the noise-free conditions inside the hollow microtubules, the macroscopic quantum state could perhaps reboot itself, and resume itself to its lasted "saved" state, using the information stored in the configuration state of the microtubule molecules. 

 

But the other possibility is that once the macroscopic quantum state in a person's brain (which normally exists uninterrupted for the lifetime of the person) is collapsed and destroyed due to death and the cessation of energy production in the cells, then most of the information contained in that quantum state may be lost, and thus it cannot really be rebooted if a body is brought back to life centuries later.

 

I am not sure what the Hameroff-Penrose microtubule theory predicts itself regarding these two possibilities.


Edited by Hip, 20 January 2017 - 08:18 PM.


#6 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:40 PM

For me the question regards death.  What is death?



#7 YOLF

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:06 AM

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 

Chrono means time and pause means to suspend, or stop temporarily. So a person who is cryopreserved will experience no loss of time and will wake up not having experienced any aging etc. It's like pausing a DVD or Bluray and coming back to it later or creating a save point in a video game.



#8 YOLF

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:14 AM

 

Cryonicists have developed a term called "chronopause" for other purposes which might explain it. They are "ametabolic" or not metabolic during this time and therefore and all functions come to a halt, they do not consider themselves to have died. Since the soul inhabits the body, it is frozen and inactive just as the body and reawakens with it.

 

If we use the Hameroff-Penrose microtubule theory of quantum consciousness to guide our analysis here, and we assume that the soul resides within these quantum computing and quantum informational aspects of the brain predicted by this theory, then a lack of oxygen and the resultant cessation of energy production in the cells will spell the collapse of these quantum informational state of the brain.

 

This is because under normal circumstances, large-scale macroscopic quantum states (such as those Hameroff and Penrose propose exist in the brain) tend only to appear at extremely cold temperatures, close to absolute zero. At higher temperatures, the thermal noise of vibrating atoms destroys any macroscopic quantum state. Macroscopic quantum states can normally only exist under the totally placid, thermal noise free conditions.

 

But according to the Hameroff-Penrose theory, cells use a very clever approach to create macroscopic quantum states in the brain even at the high temperatures (compared to absolute zero) of the body tissues. This approach is called a pumped energy system, whereby you use a constant flow of energy to dampen the thermal noise of vibrating atoms, and in this way, you facilitate a macroscopic quantum state in the brain at body temperature.  

 

This pumped energy system is posited to reside within the interiors of the microtubules in the cells of the body.  It allows the interiors of the microtubules to be a calm and placid, analogous to the mirror-like surface of a lake when there is no wind blowing to churn up the water.

 

However, as soon as the energy supply in the cells is cut off, this pumped energy system fails, and thermal noise then takes over, like throwing thousands of stones into a lake, churning up the water. So as soon as this pumped energy system fails, the macroscopic quantum state existing in the microtubules will collapse, and is destroyed in the brain. 

 

That I would guess would be the moment any quantum informational soul will leave the brain: at the moment of death, when the pumped energy system fails, and the macroscopic quantum state in the brain collapses.

 

 

However, there is an information exchange between the macroscopic quantum state inside the hollow cylindrical microtubules, and the molecules in the cylindrical wall of the microtubules (this is how it is proposed that data is exchanged between the quantum state and the rest of the brain; the state of configuration of the molecules in the cylindrical wall of the microtubules encodes information derived from the macroscopic quantum state).

 

So if a body is reanimated centuries after death, and energy production resumes in the cells, so that the pumped energy system can come online again, and recreate the noise-free conditions inside the hollow microtubules, the macroscopic quantum state could perhaps reboot itself, and resume itself to its lasted "saved" state, using the information stored in the configuration state of the microtubule molecules. 

 

But the other possibility is that once the macroscopic quantum state in a person's brain (which normally exists uninterrupted for the lifetime of the person) is collapsed and destroyed due to death and the cessation of energy production in the cells, then most of the information contained in that quantum state may be lost, and thus it cannot really be rebooted if a body is brought back to life centuries later.

 

I am not sure what the Hameroff-Penrose microtubule theory predicts itself regarding these two possibilities.

 

 

Sorry, you lost me somewhere in that first sentence. I'm not familiar with all this quantum consciousness stuff. Where did you learn it? Was it something that took alot time?


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#9 YOLF

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 06:30 AM

Actually, I kept reading to the second paragraph this time... 

 

So if I use a ultrasound on my head or some other vibration device, I'm disrupting the state of any given molecule in my brain at that time. Does it change who I am? Did I cheat on my ex b/c she used an ultrasonic facial cleanser to get the makeup off her forehead and turned into a different chick and I didn't know the difference? Or did she change momentarily and return to her normal self as the momentum created by the rest of her state created a continuing force? 

 

So some vibrations disrupt the chemistry of whatever I was thinking about at the time of my preservation. I think it's like getting your bearings straight after getting dizzy... a few moments and we're us again. We needn't return every molecule to it's previous location to maintain our identity. Nor would the changes that occur that return us to a more youthful state, even if they effect the brain, change who are. If a washout solution is passed through us while we're unconscious and not quite thawed yet that breaks up the stuff that aging left behind leaving us in a more youthful state of potential for our momentum to continue, I wouldn't think of it as a bad thing. It would just be repairing damage that occurred due to aging and thus placing us in a new state of health we probably haven't known on a molecular basis before. But I still wouldn't think those changes could be said to change our identity to an unacceptable degree... we'd just be reoriented as if dizzy, but return to a better and healthier state.


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#10 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:41 PM

 

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 

Chrono means time and pause means to suspend, or stop temporarily. So a person who is cryopreserved will experience no loss of time and will wake up not having experienced any aging etc. It's like pausing a DVD or Bluray and coming back to it later or creating a save point in a video game.

 

 

Thanks! E.g.  nothing new under the sun. I hoped there to be some new methode for cryopreservation, that has prooven working lol :)


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#11 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:26 PM

 

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 

Chrono means time and pause means to suspend, or stop temporarily. So a person who is cryopreserved will experience no loss of time and will wake up not having experienced any aging etc. It's like pausing a DVD or Bluray and coming back to it later or creating a save point in a video game.

 

Has this happened to human subjects yet?



#12 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:33 PM

Only to human embryos. They can time travel today while in a dewar with a liquid nitrogen.



#13 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:35 PM

And P.S.

 

Either there is no soul, or when they get thawed, thir soul obviously comes back in them, because if implanten in females, they get born alive.

 

 


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#14 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:39 PM

Only to human embryos. They can time travel today while in a dewar with a liquid nitrogen.

How is this time travel?



#15 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 09:57 PM

That is a nice question. Cryopreservation is a time travel into the future. Unidirectional timetravel actually. No turning back.

 

When the embryo is cryopreserved, its entire metabolism stops, and it thus it may stay a very long time, literary centuries. When it is thawed back, this may happen lets say 200 years ofter its parents died from aging. Thus the embryo spams in the future.

 

This is valid also for everything, that can survive lowe temperatures.

 

http://timetravel.fr...ellers-vt7.html



#16 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 10:46 PM

That is a nice question. Cryopreservation is a time travel into the future. Unidirectional timetravel actually. No turning back.

 

When the embryo is cryopreserved, its entire metabolism stops, and it thus it may stay a very long time, literary centuries. When it is thawed back, this may happen lets say 200 years ofter its parents died from aging. Thus the embryo spams in the future.

 

This is valid also for everything, that can survive lowe temperatures.

 

http://timetravel.fr...ellers-vt7.html

So is ice outside of time?  What about super cold deep space?  Is time related to temperature?



#17 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 10:51 PM

That question goes offtopic.

 

If you want, post your views there:

http://www.longecity...-as-timetravel/


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#18 shadowhawk

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 11:45 PM

That question goes offtopic.

 

If you want, post your views there:

http://www.longecity...-as-timetravel/

Well you said the soul "obviously" comes back to the timeless frozen embryo.  It is moving around outside of time is this because being frozen makes you timeless?  Doesn't it take time to move even if you are a soul?  Isn't this on topic?  Do we exist in spacetime or not? 



#19 seivtcho

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 11:51 PM

I dont know how and why. I know it only as a fact.

 

They take the embryo, cryopreserve it in liquid nitrogen, thaw it later, implant it, and it gets alive and becomes an alive child.  



#20 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:01 AM

I dont know how and why. I know it only as a fact.

 

They take the embryo, cryopreserve it in liquid nitrogen, thaw it later, implant it, and it gets alive and becomes an alive child.  

So being frozen may not affect time at all.  What you have stopped is physical development not time.  Even an iceberg has an age.  Are you alive?



#21 seivtcho

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:16 AM

Yes, I am still alive lol :)

 

I view everything, that takes me from one moment in time and brings me to another moment in the future, as a timetravel.

 

We timetravel even now. Each second we go one second in the future. Yes, being alive is a timetraveling to the future. From one moment to another.

The longer you are alive, the longer you will go in the future.

 

Live a hundred years from now, and you will see the next century.

 

 

 

Being frozen at one moment and thawed in the future is actually taking you from one moment in time and bringing you to another moment in the future. It is time traveling.


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#22 shadowhawk

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:41 PM

Well if this is time travel in one direction ok but you still use tensed words such as "future" to describe it.  Future from what?  I assume you speak of the Physical but not the soul.



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#23 seivtcho

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:13 PM

The future from the perspective of the frozen embryo. The dewar with iquid nitrogen brings it further in time from the moment it got there.

 

Yes, I speack of a physical only. That is because I dont believe in the soul.

 

But for those, who believe, that the soul exists, the fact still is that the thawed back embryo makes an alive child. So if there is a soul, then that fact has something to do with the soul getting into the embryo. Some soul comes and (re)joins with the embryo after all.



#24 shadowhawk

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 08:42 PM

And what is the perspective of the frozen embryo?  You apparently know but i suspect it is but your own.  Further in time?  The soul rejoins the Embryo?  How would you know that?  Everything that is physical only dies.  If there is no soul which is not physical you will die even if frozen.

 



#25 seivtcho

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 10:06 PM

This depends on the beliefs.

 

I believe, that there is no soul. Only workings of the brain. The workings of the brain in case of hypothetical successfull human cryopreservation, stop reversebly, and in case of successfull thawing are being restored. This is my belief. All the cells of a hypotetical successfully preserved human would also temprary stop metabolism, and revived after thawing. That is one of the reasons why I hope some full body cryopreservaion thing to come until I am alive.

As for the success with embryos, the cryopreserved embryos have no brain yet, and are several cells only. For them only the cellular metabolism stops reversibly, and is being restored after thawing. But that is enough, because the body and the brain forms later on, while the child is in the mother's womb.

The perspectives for the embryo to be thawed alive are good in the todays cryobiology (2016-2017) and I think they will be becomming better in the future.

 

If someone believes in the soul, then how the believer would explain the fact, that after thawing the embryo develops a healthy and alive child?

 

I suppose, that the believer will explain this with his very particular believes.

1. Some may say "the original soul of the child went away, and another has enetered in it"

2. Some other may say "the soul went out, but then came back"

3. Some may say "the soul comes in the child later on, after birth"

 

What is your belief? How do you explain the fact, that the embryo revives after a propper cryopreservation?



#26 YOLF

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 06:57 AM

 

 

What exactly is the chronopause? 

 

Is that the suspended animation with low temperature? 

Chrono means time and pause means to suspend, or stop temporarily. So a person who is cryopreserved will experience no loss of time and will wake up not having experienced any aging etc. It's like pausing a DVD or Bluray and coming back to it later or creating a save point in a video game.

 

Has this happened to human subjects yet?

 

Half of it (the frozen part).


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#27 YOLF

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 07:13 AM

 

I dont know how and why. I know it only as a fact.

 

They take the embryo, cryopreserve it in liquid nitrogen, thaw it later, implant it, and it gets alive and becomes an alive child.  

So being frozen may not affect time at all.  What you have stopped is physical development not time.  Even an iceberg has an age.  Are you alive?

 

Well perhaps the embryo has two ages. If it's a 200 year old embryo and it gets gestated into a baby and grows up to live 200 years, then their age since conception would be 400.75 years give or take and their age according to years being metabolic and experiencing the world is ~200.75. 

 

Now if this person was to then enter cryopreservation for 200 years, upon waking, they would be 600.75 in terms of age since conception, and still ~200.75 in years of active humanity. 100 years from then, they would be ~300.75 in years of active humanity, and ~700.75 in years since conception. 

 

But I think since English is a foreign language to him that he knows what he's talking about, he's just writing it wrong.



#28 shadowhawk

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Posted 24 January 2017 - 11:14 PM

 

 

I dont know how and why. I know it only as a fact.

 

They take the embryo, cryopreserve it in liquid nitrogen, thaw it later, implant it, and it gets alive and becomes an alive child.  

So being frozen may not affect time at all.  What you have stopped is physical development not time.  Even an iceberg has an age.  Are you alive?

 

Well perhaps the embryo has two ages. If it's a 200 year old embryo and it gets gestated into a baby and grows up to live 200 years, then their age since conception would be 400.75 years give or take and their age according to years being metabolic and experiencing the world is ~200.75. 

 

Now if this person was to then enter cryopreservation for 200 years, upon waking, they would be 600.75 in terms of age since conception, and still ~200.75 in years of active humanity. 100 years from then, they would be ~300.75 in years of active humanity, and ~700.75 in years since conception. 

 

But I think since English is a foreign language to him that he knows what he's talking about, he's just writing it wrong.

 

It seems you have one age but development in two stages (maybe).  Lots of things develop in stages but time itself is not affected.  Life while being frozen certainly not life as we experience it.  I admit things can be kept alive artificially but often you are no better than brain dead.  What is the consciousness of an ice cube?  Still even ice cubes milt and die, as well as age.  In the long run death even catches up with ice.  Just believing in something does not make it so.



#29 seivtcho

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 05:39 PM

We, people have chronological and biological age.

 

The chronological aging is the time that passed from the birth pure calendar and astronomica aspect - years, months, days, hours, minutes.

The biological aging is the development and the aging changes.

These two types of aging can be very different.

 

So for that one - one age but development in two stages - you are right, shadowhawk.

 

While in the liquid nitrogen the embryo (or whatever in there) is practically death. But this death is reversible and the cryopreserved thing can revive. So, as YOLF says, it is a pause in the biological age, that allows the embryo to reach a much higher chronological age. Just like the YOLF's paused video. The video can last an hour. You can pause it (temporary and reversibly kill it) on the 30th minute, and unpause it after a day. Thus the video lasts 24 hours and a half chronologically. But still one hour in its essence. Perhaps this is what they mean by "chronopause".



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#30 shadowhawk

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Posted 25 January 2017 - 09:28 PM

Well no sane person clams the video is alive.  Try that on anything that is alive. 
Actually you do not live longer you are just paused in a frozen state with no life experience going on. Conscious life remains about the same, that is if someone thaws you out.  Sooner or later you die physically. Some have described frozen life as hell.







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