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Cryonics and the soul

cryonics soul afterlife

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#31 seivtcho

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 06:24 AM

Yes, actually you dont live longer biologically. But thus you go to the future, and in the future you will live longer, because of the better medicine. 

 

If you are gamer, this is like pausing the game, starting a hack, and unpausing the game in order it to last longer. 



#32 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 08:15 PM

Cryonics is a legitimate approach to escape death and is subject to scrutiny as any approach is.  It is aimed at the physical with little relevance to the soul.  Show me something physical only that does not eventually die.



#33 seivtcho

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 09:44 PM

Why not we suggest, that the soul comes back in the body after a successfull thawing?



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#34 shadowhawk

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Posted 26 January 2017 - 11:05 PM

And where is this success thawing.  Show me someone who has been thawed and lives without eventual death.    The only hope I can see is if you have a spirit which has a different nature than the body which is physical like the rest of the physical cosmos.  I am not putting down cryonics but it has its limitations which are obvious.



#35 seivtcho

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:53 AM

Such a spirit may not exist. If you want it so much why not you try to create it? Gather the christian scholars, and you all start thinking what exactly is the spirit and how it can be made artifitially.


Edited by seivtcho, 27 January 2017 - 06:54 AM.


#36 shadowhawk

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 11:15 PM

Such a spirit may not exist. If you want it so much why not you try to create it? Gather the christian scholars, and you all start thinking what exactly is the spirit and how it can be made artifitially.

Everything that is only physical dies.  I am not here arguing for a spirit because that is not the subject.  Many scholars have long discoursed it.  You cant use physical methods to measure spirit.  Spirit is of a different nature than the physical.  It is more like an abstract object and consciousness.  I could post on it but then I would be off topic and subject to censorship. Being frozen is not the answer and lacks evidence.  Again, everything that is only physical dies and there is tons of evidence for that.



#37 YOLF

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 04:04 AM

Let's face it though, the spirit dies if the person is no longer living it. If a spirit carries on, it is just the spirit that lived within them that was shared by another, so even the spirit dies, it isn't necessarily just the same. We miss the spirits of those we've lost and won't get them back in their entirety. Eventually, even a few shards of them will fade away if we don't take what's left of their spirit with us.



#38 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 07:08 PM

Let's face it though, the spirit dies if the person is no longer living it. If a spirit carries on, it is just the spirit that lived within them that was shared by another, so even the spirit dies, it isn't necessarily just the same. We miss the spirits of those we've lost and won't get them back in their entirety. Eventually, even a few shards of them will fade away if we don't take what's left of their spirit with us.

 

We know for sure the physical body dies.  We have overwhelming evidence of that.  Where is your evidence of what happens to the Spirit?  Everything that is only physical dies,  As for the spirit, what kind of evidence do you have that it is just like the body?
 



#39 seivtcho

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 07:59 PM

Cryobiology is compatable both in case with ot in case without a spirit.



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#40 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 08:11 PM

Cryobiology is compatable both in case with ot in case without a spirit.

 

No the body freezes because it is physical but can you weigh or take the temperature of spirit? By the way soul and spirit are two different words and used differently.  Soul refers to something being alive.
 



#41 seivtcho

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 08:45 PM

And still the fact is a fact. Thawed embryos turn into alive people.

 

I don't know what is a soul and a spirit but they both dont matter for the cryobiology.



#42 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 09:06 PM

And still the fact is a fact. Thawed embryos turn into alive people.

 

I don't know what is a soul and a spirit but they both dont matter for the cryobiology.

Show me a thawed embryo that has grown up as a live person.  I agree you can't freeze a spirit just as you can't weigh it.  You can't use physical methods when dealing with the spiritual.  But how much does the number 2 weigh?  Are numbers real?  How much does consciousness weigh?  Before you think spirit is not real because you can't use physical methods on it other real things share these qualities.  You are right however you can only freeze the physical but that does not include everything real.



#43 seivtcho

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 09:24 PM

lol man :) there are many children walking today, that have been a cryopreserved embryo in their very early states of life.

Since today  there are such in Bulgaria, you should have enough in the USA.

They have grown into an alive children. And children are persons. So, there are thawed embryos that have grown into persons.

 

Consciousness, spirit, soul and whatever you mean by these, are not a problem for cryopreserving and thawing back a human embryo, because the embryo nevertheless thawes back alive.

 

And to tell the true, I dont see what you would have against that, because even if you believe in the soul and the spirit, then again they are not being lost in the cryopreservation.



#44 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 09:46 PM

So you are telling me the embryo was dead?  As I said I have nothing against cryonics or most other medical procedures.  I do not doubt that fertilized embryos can be unfroze and implanted.  They are not dead and if they are you will not be able to make them live again..  Theists have long objected to disposing of living embryos which are deemed not wanted because they are alive.  I am not against cryonics but question whether it is the paramecia for a life that does not die.  As long as the spirit is with the body it is alive. 



#45 seivtcho

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 10:12 PM

Yes, biologically embryos are dead while in the liquid nitrogen. Simply their death is reversible. Strange, really.

Nevertheless in the biology for something to be alive, it must have a number of qualities, among which is to exchange matter and energy with the surrounding environment. In the liquid nitrogen temperature it definately doesnt exchange matter and energy with the surrounding environment so, yes, it is dead while in the dewar. And the embryo is being brought back alive after thawing.

 

Reviving of people is not impossibe even today. But in order for the todays medicine (2016 - 2017) to revive a corpse, the corpse should be freshly dead. Revivings after cardio-pulmonary resustitation happens every day in many hospitals arround the world. I have been whitnessing some revivals.

 

If not the paramecia for a life that does not die, it is a way to live much longer. This is not only because of the extended chronology, but also because the medicine develops, and after thawing you lets say after 200 years, you will be able to get medical treatment that will make you live much more.



#46 shadowhawk

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Posted 28 January 2017 - 11:40 PM

No, a truly dead embryo can not come back alive.  You can kill an embryo by incorrectly processing it when freezing so they can die.  The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited.

https://www.scientif...yos-survive-th/
http://www.givf.com/...ofreezing.shtml
https://en.wikipedia...ryopreservation

 



#47 seivtcho

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Posted 29 January 2017 - 12:19 PM

No but yes.

 

Death can be reversible. It is reversible at least for some of the embryos, and it is reversible for at least some of the freshly death people in the emergency departments.

 

Death is to stop being alive.

To be alive is to match the requirements given from the biology.

One of the main requirements is the cellular metabolism to work.

The embryo in the dewar with liquid nitrogen is with stopped metabolism.

So while in the dewar the embryo is death.

When it is thawed the metabolism starts working again.

The embryo again matches the biologial requirements for being alive.

So the embryo revives.

 

The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited. Says who? Teoretically it can stay there unchanges forever. From your first link the interviewed is not so sure, but even he still gives it 200 years.



#48 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 02:27 AM

 

Let's face it though, the spirit dies if the person is no longer living it. If a spirit carries on, it is just the spirit that lived within them that was shared by another, so even the spirit dies, it isn't necessarily just the same. We miss the spirits of those we've lost and won't get them back in their entirety. Eventually, even a few shards of them will fade away if we don't take what's left of their spirit with us.

 

We know for sure the physical body dies.  We have overwhelming evidence of that.  Where is your evidence of what happens to the Spirit?  Everything that is only physical dies,  As for the spirit, what kind of evidence do you have that it is just like the body?
 

 

In the presence of someone who carries the spirit with them, it is easy to recognize the presence of said spirit. But where is it when they are gone? I find only fragments of the original carried by those who were close to them. Nothing beyond this, and it fades with the passing of years. Trying to learn of the spirits of people from generations past is spotty at best and I'll never truly know those who died before my time. Perhaps famous writers or people who leave a mark on history can be known an order of magnitude or two more, but we aren't giving the complexity of life and people justice to simplify them. We do that b/c it's all we've been able to do up until now and so most spirits get weaker and weaker or transmuted by sorcery or some other such thing by those of us in the present making the initial impression weaker and weaker with every reinterpretation. But we can do better, we can keep the spirit as alive as the person and keep it growing forevermore. At least for as long as their will allows, and by then, social media will allow their spirit to continue on stronger and longer than ever before, even for those who aren't so famous.



#49 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 02:34 AM

 

Cryobiology is compatable both in case with ot in case without a spirit.

 

No the body freezes because it is physical but can you weigh or take the temperature of spirit? By the way soul and spirit are two different words and used differently.  Soul refers to something being alive.
 

 

In this case, the spirit will become weak and diffuse with time, dependent upon the continued lives of those it has touched. The spirit may be stronger with some than others for that reason, but bringing the dead back to life will lead to a rekindling and clarification of their spirit. So it will grow weak and diffuse, then go through a kindling period and reignite like never before, empowered by the new youth of person from whom it comes and the spirit will be overjoyed!

 

I'm not certain why you're not understanding this or resistant to the idea of it. It's confusing. I hope I'm speaking your language adequately.

 

Or perhaps it is better to say that the spirit and the soul in unison upon the thawing and rejuvenation of the cryonicist give light to the day oslt?

 

Or do you mean to place concern on the spirit returning as it once was? Or saying that the spirit and soul may be ill suited for the times to come? In which case, let me remind you that neuroplasticity and youth go hand in hand. So people will be more adaptive than ever before and indefinitely more suited to their environment than ever previous if we assume all the features of youth are restored. So the spirit then will seek and find more welcome in the future and grow with the will of the future where it might not have previously. 

 

In pop culture cryonics short films and such we see examples of limited neuroplasticity remaining, but I can't imagine those will remain for long. Bringing lives back from the cryotube will set the spirits free like never before and will yield greater hope than one could expect in the present.

 

As for it being exactly the same, I believe the spirit is influenced by it's environment and the spirits around it. Even if people are more resistant to the radical change they experience as a result of rampant neuroplasticity, their own enhanced neuroplasticity will allow that spirit to grow on them anew.


Edited by YOLF, 30 January 2017 - 02:46 AM.


#50 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 02:55 AM

So you are telling me the embryo was dead?  As I said I have nothing against cryonics or most other medical procedures.  I do not doubt that fertilized embryos can be unfroze and implanted.  They are not dead and if they are you will not be able to make them live again..  Theists have long objected to disposing of living embryos which are deemed not wanted because they are alive.  I am not against cryonics but question whether it is the paramecia for a life that does not die.  As long as the spirit is with the body it is alive. 

Hmmm... I'm seeing that the anime "One Piece" describes paramecia as a "Devil's Fruit," that gives the user special powers oslt. Is that how you're using it? I don't see anything else besides single celled organisms.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that a body without a spirit as some might understand it is dead, just unkindled, or running on embers so to speak.



#51 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 03:07 AM

No, a truly dead embryo can not come back alive.  You can kill an embryo by incorrectly processing it when freezing so they can die.  The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited.

https://www.scientif...yos-survive-th/
http://www.givf.com/...ofreezing.shtml
https://en.wikipedia...ryopreservation

 

I had read something to the contrary. That embryos had been used well beyond their "expiration" date and yielded healthy people on numerous occasion and that it's really more a matter of the state of aging within the mother. Perhaps there is more of a risk of earthquakes oslt causing too many fractures to be repaired while frozen, and this is a function of time, but there's no reason they can't just replace the rubber feet on the freezers more often and make other adjustments to the process. More frozen embryos are likely to die because we haven't cured aging, than are likely to die due to some imaginary expiration date imo. The work of prolifists should therefor include treatments for complete rejuvenation, otherwise use of frozen embryos might as well be termed irresponsible in many cases. How many lives go to waste for reproductive medicine that just isn't sufficiently advanced? Though tbf, I'm not terribly well versed on these matters. But I do understand that such hormone treatments are considered risks for developing cancers and other ill health, and that the age of the mother, as we haven't yet cured aging, is still a factor in the health of the child, even if the embryo was frozen when they were young, or even if they attempt to repair it using genetic therapies.


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#52 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:19 PM

 

No, a truly dead embryo can not come back alive.  You can kill an embryo by incorrectly processing it when freezing so they can die.  The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited.

https://www.scientif...yos-survive-th/
http://www.givf.com/...ofreezing.shtml
https://en.wikipedia...ryopreservation

 

I had read something to the contrary. That embryos had been used well beyond their "expiration" date and yielded healthy people on numerous occasion and that it's really more a matter of the state of aging within the mother. Perhaps there is more of a risk of earthquakes oslt causing too many fractures to be repaired while frozen, and this is a function of time, but there's no reason they can't just replace the rubber feet on the freezers more often and make other adjustments to the process. More frozen embryos are likely to die because we haven't cured aging, than are likely to die due to some imaginary expiration date imo. The work of prolifists should therefor include treatments for complete rejuvenation, otherwise use of frozen embryos might as well be termed irresponsible in many cases. How many lives go to waste for reproductive medicine that just isn't sufficiently advanced? Though tbf, I'm not terribly well versed on these matters. But I do understand that such hormone treatments are considered risks for developing cancers and other ill health, and that the age of the mother, as we haven't yet cured aging, is still a factor in the health of the child, even if the embryo was frozen when they were young, or even if they attempt to repair it using genetic therapies.

 

Say 200 years.  That is the time frame for an expiration date that I have seen.  But a moment in the grand scheme  of things.  No embryo existing today is that old.  There is an expiration date and it is not that old.  There is a degradation as the frozen embryo ages.  We are dealing with few cells.  We are not speaking of large body parts or anything like complete bodies which is a much greater problem.  The entire cosmos is dying.  Everything that is ONLY physical dies including what is frozen.  So how do you know what happens to the spirit if there is one?



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#53 shadowhawk

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:24 PM

No but yes.

 

Death can be reversible. It is reversible at least for some of the embryos, and it is reversible for at least some of the freshly death people in the emergency departments.

 

Death is to stop being alive.

To be alive is to match the requirements given from the biology.

One of the main requirements is the cellular metabolism to work.

The embryo in the dewar with liquid nitrogen is with stopped metabolism.

So while in the dewar the embryo is death.

When it is thawed the metabolism starts working again.

The embryo again matches the biologial requirements for being alive.

So the embryo revives.

 

The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited. Says who? Teoretically it can stay there unchanges forever. From your first link the interviewed is not so sure, but even he still gives it 200 years.

Can you kill an embryo if it is already dead?  Why do scientists speak of dead embryos?  They do not come back alive.



#54 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:40 PM

 

 

No, a truly dead embryo can not come back alive.  You can kill an embryo by incorrectly processing it when freezing so they can die.  The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited.

https://www.scientif...yos-survive-th/
http://www.givf.com/...ofreezing.shtml
https://en.wikipedia...ryopreservation

 

I had read something to the contrary. That embryos had been used well beyond their "expiration" date and yielded healthy people on numerous occasion and that it's really more a matter of the state of aging within the mother. Perhaps there is more of a risk of earthquakes oslt causing too many fractures to be repaired while frozen, and this is a function of time, but there's no reason they can't just replace the rubber feet on the freezers more often and make other adjustments to the process. More frozen embryos are likely to die because we haven't cured aging, than are likely to die due to some imaginary expiration date imo. The work of prolifists should therefor include treatments for complete rejuvenation, otherwise use of frozen embryos might as well be termed irresponsible in many cases. How many lives go to waste for reproductive medicine that just isn't sufficiently advanced? Though tbf, I'm not terribly well versed on these matters. But I do understand that such hormone treatments are considered risks for developing cancers and other ill health, and that the age of the mother, as we haven't yet cured aging, is still a factor in the health of the child, even if the embryo was frozen when they were young, or even if they attempt to repair it using genetic therapies.

 

Say 200 years.  That is the time frame for an expiration date that I have seen.  But a moment in the grand scheme  of things.  No embryo existing today is that old.  There is an expiration date and it is not that old.  There is a degradation as the frozen embryo ages.  We are dealing with few cells.  We are not speaking of large body parts or anything like complete bodies which is a much greater problem.  The entire cosmos is dying.  Everything that is ONLY physical dies including what is frozen.  So how do you know what happens to the spirit if there is one?

 

You remind me strongly of Rau Le Creuset in a TV series I once watched... Try to be more hopeful and know that we're making progress, or that if we're not in this case, we're making excuses to discard these embryos b/c no one wants them.

 

I also explained that the elect are witness to the spirit. So they see it and so like anything else, can measure it. YMMV and some do it better than others... But anyone who is too consumed by it is likely to be lost.


Edited by YOLF, 30 January 2017 - 11:46 PM.


#55 YOLF

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 11:52 PM

Of course, we may get to the future and things may change drastically, and the spirit will be so good at making perfect souls in comparison to what we see today that we have quite a bit of adjustment to make and the future views the spirits of today as demons. But at the same time, so much of that which causes demons and hellfire will out paced by the mankind's goodness. Personally, I'm not getting too attached to today's, It's unlikely that I'll live as part of it for more than another 50 or so years, but the spirit of the future, that I will live with for eons. The Apollonian Path it would seem is classic.



#56 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:17 AM

Of course, we may get to the future and things may change drastically, and the spirit will be so good at making perfect souls in comparison to what we see today that we have quite a bit of adjustment to make and the future views the spirits of today as demons. But at the same time, so much of that which causes demons and hellfire will out paced by the mankind's goodness. Personally, I'm not getting too attached to today's, It's unlikely that I'll live as part of it for more than another 50 or so years, but the spirit of the future, that I will live with for eons. The Apollonian Path it would seem is classic.

There is nothing here but philosophy and a kind of religion.  What is the Spirit of the future?  Hellfire and demons.  Goodness.  Don't be attached.  The Apollonian Path.  Interesting. 



#57 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:25 AM

 

 

 

No, a truly dead embryo can not come back alive.  You can kill an embryo by incorrectly processing it when freezing so they can die.  The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited.

https://www.scientif...yos-survive-th/
http://www.givf.com/...ofreezing.shtml
https://en.wikipedia...ryopreservation

 

I had read something to the contrary. That embryos had been used well beyond their "expiration" date and yielded healthy people on numerous occasion and that it's really more a matter of the state of aging within the mother. Perhaps there is more of a risk of earthquakes oslt causing too many fractures to be repaired while frozen, and this is a function of time, but there's no reason they can't just replace the rubber feet on the freezers more often and make other adjustments to the process. More frozen embryos are likely to die because we haven't cured aging, than are likely to die due to some imaginary expiration date imo. The work of prolifists should therefor include treatments for complete rejuvenation, otherwise use of frozen embryos might as well be termed irresponsible in many cases. How many lives go to waste for reproductive medicine that just isn't sufficiently advanced? Though tbf, I'm not terribly well versed on these matters. But I do understand that such hormone treatments are considered risks for developing cancers and other ill health, and that the age of the mother, as we haven't yet cured aging, is still a factor in the health of the child, even if the embryo was frozen when they were young, or even if they attempt to repair it using genetic therapies.

 

Say 200 years.  That is the time frame for an expiration date that I have seen.  But a moment in the grand scheme  of things.  No embryo existing today is that old.  There is an expiration date and it is not that old.  There is a degradation as the frozen embryo ages.  We are dealing with few cells.  We are not speaking of large body parts or anything like complete bodies which is a much greater problem.  The entire cosmos is dying.  Everything that is ONLY physical dies including what is frozen.  So how do you know what happens to the spirit if there is one?

 

You remind me strongly of Rau Le Creuset in a TV series I once watched... Try to be more hopeful and know that we're making progress, or that if we're not in this case, we're making excuses to discard these embryos b/c no one wants them.

 

I also explained that the elect are witness to the spirit. So they see it and so like anything else, can measure it. YMMV and some do it better than others... But anyone who is too consumed by it is likely to be lost.

 

What???  Perhaps I am lost.  How do you measure the Spirit?   What is YMMV?



#58 Rib Jig

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:03 AM

Cryonics will forever remain an unhatched egg.

Genetic age reversal is already dealing with mammals successfully.

No brain stoppage involved.  No soul searching required.

Younger. Smarter. Memories unblemished.



#59 seivtcho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:40 AM

 

No but yes.

 

Death can be reversible. It is reversible at least for some of the embryos, and it is reversible for at least some of the freshly death people in the emergency departments.

 

Death is to stop being alive.

To be alive is to match the requirements given from the biology.

One of the main requirements is the cellular metabolism to work.

The embryo in the dewar with liquid nitrogen is with stopped metabolism.

So while in the dewar the embryo is death.

When it is thawed the metabolism starts working again.

The embryo again matches the biologial requirements for being alive.

So the embryo revives.

 

The time an embryo is viable even when frozen is limited. Says who? Teoretically it can stay there unchanges forever. From your first link the interviewed is not so sure, but even he still gives it 200 years.

Can you kill an embryo if it is already dead?  Why do scientists speak of dead embryos?  They do not come back alive.

 

 

I think, that you simply play with definitions here.

 

Death is to stop being alive. That stoppage can be two types - reversible and non-reversible.

E.g. the death can be reversible and non-reversible.

 

Your definition of death is only the non-reversible death. That is wrong.

 

The embryo is dead in the dewar and is revived after thawing. That is that.



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#60 shadowhawk

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 08:53 PM

Cryonics will forever remain an unhatched egg.

Genetic age reversal is already dealing with mammals successfully.

No brain stoppage involved.  No soul searching required.

Younger. Smarter. Memories unblemished.

 

Perhaps you could say more on GENETIC AGE REVERSAL.  You seem to have evidence.
 







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