76 replies to this topic

[AOLministrator]

DUDE, U take Phenibut it already lowers default seizure threshold.

 

Kids ...

[kt69]

DUDE, U take Phenibut it already lowers default seizure threshold.

 

Kids ...

Please explain... As far as I know GABA agonists are anti convulsants.

You keep shouting and insulting people everywhere without explaining your opinions and views.

Edited by kt69, 28 February 2017 - 07:39 AM.

[AOLministrator]

DUDE, U understand nuffin? If a drug does one thing, it does the exact opposite in withdrawal.

 

If you take opioid pain medication, you get more pain sensitive. If you take benzos against seizures and anxiety, you get lower seizure threshold and more anxious. If you take stimulants against attention problems, it gets more difficult to focus without them.

 

That's the rule to how CNS-active drugs work. The only requirement for tolerance hence withdrawal (noticable or not) is that you continue using a drug.

 

Stuff like Dihexa, Semax, Piracetam, Bromantane are the extreme exception and are highly sought after for that reason. 

 

How can you do drugs not being aware of that?

 

And don't tell me shit about a lack of studies on Phenibut. Its a fucking GABA-B and GABA-A agonist. What the fuck dude? Even GABA-B alone would lower seizure threshold. Everyone knows but you.

Edited by AOLministrator, 28 February 2017 - 10:36 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

Every drug causes adaptive changes in the brain. Ideally we would indeed only use compounds that do good long-term or at least don't leave us worse when discontinuing. Unfortunately this isn't always an option and we have to resort to not-so-nice drugs to treat conditions that don't respond to the conventional treatments, like for example anhedonia. Then we take appropriate measures to maintain therapeutic effects of this type of drug and minimize the damage long-term. Someone with ADHD can take Memantine to prevent tolerance to their stimulant and take one or two days off a week. When taking Phenibut sticking to minimal effective dosage and having benzos or other anxiolytics in hand, and creating a proper taper-off plan when necessary is advised.

[medievil]

Every drug causes adaptive changes in the brain. Ideally we would indeed only use compounds that do good long-term or at least don't leave us worse when discontinuing. Unfortunately this isn't always an option and we have to resort to not-so-nice drugs to treat conditions that don't respond to the conventional treatments, like for example anhedonia. Then we take appropriate measures to maintain therapeutic effects of this type of drug and minimize the damage long-term. Someone with ADHD can take Memantine to prevent tolerance to their stimulant and take one or two days off a week. When taking Phenibut sticking to minimal effective dosage and having benzos or other anxiolytics in hand, and creating a proper taper-off plan when necessary is advised.

 

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

For me I definatly need a alternative as what I do in life is constantly exploring differened rcs and see what therapeutic potential they have, ive identified it for many but the key thing is offcourse not be addicted which im gonna get help for offcourse.

 

The problem with this offcourse is that some stims are more anxiogenic leaving me ran out of phenibut or benzos, so im looking for holistic approaches to augment them so the dose can be lowered.

 

I was thinking about muscimol, its a selective gabaa and gabab agonist, might work when cycled.

 

Ashwaghanda being a gabaa and gabab agonist should potentiate my clonazepam and phenibut so should help me stay at lower doses.

 

Take care guys.

[happyfunballs]

There is a lot of emerging information on microdosing LSD as a therapy.  There are articles in GQ, Esquire etc.  Its getting mainstream and apparently can cause long lasting anti-depressant effects with little risk or sides.

 

See: https://www.theatlan...odosing/513035/

 

Edited by happyfunballs, 10 March 2017 - 07:20 PM.

[kt69]

I've been backing off the idea of using phenibut daily more and more lately because the main benefits I get from it are supposedly from the dopamine increase, and that is also the first thing to dissapear when tolerance sets in.

I made an appointment with a new psychiatrist but I still have to wait a few weeks for that, and it may take several more appointments before we are ready to start with the proper medication. So in the mean time I ordered some bromantane / Ladasten from Russia, it should arrive at the end of next week. It supposedly increases dopamine and serotonin, and acts as an anxiolytic by modulating the GABA system so it might just do the trick for me.

I'm also considering microdosing psychedelics as it seems to be working extremely well for a lot of people, but I'm going to use that as a last resort tough because it seems quite risky. I can use Psilocybin for that as it is legal, cheap and easy to get in my country. Any ideas on this??

[Duchykins]

I have phenibut but never take it more than a couple times a month.  There's not much difference between phenibut and ativan or valium no matter which GABA receptors they interact with and I have those too.

 

In order to avoid the nasty game with regular benzo use, even though it would be within prescribed norms, I devised a cycle of things so that I wouldn't be taking the same thing every day.  This took several weeks of looking through medical literature to ensure I wouldn't be wasting my money or time on bullshit that did not do what it's been claimed to do.

 

The first was herbal teas, but then I graduated to liquid extracts because they were simpler to administrate and I could carry them around.  The second set of things was essential oils.

 

Herb Pharm extracts:

 

Lemon Balm (my favorite, takes about 2 hours to really kick in)

Lavender

Chamomile

 

I played with Kava at first but it was too strong for my purposes.

 

 

 

Aura Cacia EOs:

 

Ylang Ylang III 

Ylang Ylang Extra

Bergamot

Neroli

Jasmine Absolute

 

Vanilla (there is no such thing as vanilla EO because of the nature of curing the vanilla bean and what an EO really is - this one from Aura Cacia is a high-quality extract blended with jojoba oil, food grade vanilla extract is not a sufficient substitute)

  

And plain ole Lemon EO.  Lemon is the only EO that to my knowledge has been demonstrated to tickle your oxytocin in addition to the other nice things it does.

 

 

 

But with the EOs, it is imperative that you do not buy fakes.  Synthetic chemicals that simulate the scents do not stimulate neurotransmitters in the brain in exactly the same way as the chemicals emitted by the real thing - if the fakes do anything at all.  You may not be able to consciously perceive a difference in the smell, but the receptors lining your sinuses definitely can tell the difference.

 

 

Nothing here will be as singularly potent as the aforementioned pharmaceuticals, but fuck you if you're sneering at this  - that's the whole damn point of all of this.  Nobody has yet invented a wonderdrug that is both strong and suitable for regular use.

 

 

Edit: forgot to mention that I also just take GABA at 500 mg doses sometimes.  Blah blah blah "the GABA molecule is too big to pass the BBB"  but that's irrelevant - the reason GABA supplements work vs placebo is because your gut is packed with receptors for all major neurotransmitters including GABA.  Your gut is lined with these receptors because many of the different species of bacteria living in your gut actually excrete things like GABA, oxytocin, serotonin, dopamine, etc as waste, and your gut receptors pick them up.  Fun fact: some 90+ % of your body's serotonin is in your gut right now.   Have a nice day.

Edited by Duchykins, 12 March 2017 - 03:10 AM.

[Duchykins]

 

 

Um, excuse me but considering your credentials: are you dumb? 

 

Everyone knows that anxiolytic drugs which mediate their effect by GABA, do only worsen anxiety disorders with regular use. Which is why none of them are prescribed against it by any credible professional, except if then only for serious panic attacks that may occur every few month or so.

 

Tolerance builds with any usage pattern, hence the exact opposite takes place when the drug is out of the system. The anxiolytic effect is completely lost when used constantly. Any other belief is necessarily a mirage, i.e. must be attributed to the active placebo effect. Not saying that this doesn't work against anxiety, as seen in treatment with SSRI. Just saying that there cannot be any causal relationship in observed effectiveness, other than that.

 

Though there *might* in theory be potential for limited use, to flat out brief periods of heightened anxiety, in effect what happens is that the patient overuses the drug in a preventative sense. Ultimately leading to worsening of the condition, if not even the addition of substance dependence disorder.

 

So how can you even promote GABA agonists for anxiety?

 

 

 

I know you got a lot of shit for this post, but I just wanted to let you know that at least one person here agrees with you.  After decades of using benzos in anxiety treatment, the long-term results are finally starting to come in and demonstrate the ugly side of regular use.  Then you add this to the fact that we have now learned that SSRIs work no better than placebo on all but the most clinical of depression disorders.    The landscape of psychiatry is just beginning to change with this kind of new generational-level data.   It will probably take another generation before these things become common knowledge among MDs, because so many are too busy with their practice to stay current on new research.  We just need more time to phase in a new generation of doctors who are armed with more recent knowledge.

[Duchykins]

 

Bupropion is a stimulant sort of drug that is not easy to abuse, due to complicated pharmacodynamics. A very low dose would probably mimic the stimulant part of Phenibut well.

Yes that looks like something that could help me but I've read that it can cause seizures. I wouldn't be comfortable taking that as I'm terrified of getting a seizure...

 

 

Bupropion caused seizures in some people when it was first released on the market and some people were being prescribed 400 mg daily.   We don't do that anymore so don't worry about that.

 

There is just seizure risk with sudden cessation of bupropion if you had been previously taking it around 300 mg daily for at least a month or two.  But nobody should be stopping any psychiatric drug suddenly like that anyway.

[Galaxyshock]

I went stupid taking recreational doses of Phenibut, up to 12-15 grams a day. So my tolerance got very high quickly. I want to reduce it at least down to 6 grams or less. I'm experimenting with different meds/supps to see what works to cut down the doses.

 

• 10mg of Diazepam seems to put me nice and cozy for several hours. Which is a bit surprising because I've been benzo-tolerant for very long time getting no effect from this type of doses. Chronic benzo-usage has been linked to increased binding of GABA to the -B receptor subunit, I hypothise that chronic Phenibut usage increases binding to the -A receptor.
• Gotu Kola seems most helpful supplement, which isn't surprising since it's selective GABA-B agonist along with the induction of GAD enzyme. I take 3 gram doses several times a day.
• Ashwagandha helps, I've been taking it for several months now though. Quite subtle at this point but seems to level me out and keep me sharp.
• Bacopa is good for depressive symptoms and is nicely anxiolytic too.
• Ginseng seems to prevent any paranoia symptoms because of its antipsychotic-like effects and partial kappa-antagonism. It's quite stimulating though. Hopefully it helps upregulate GABA-B if gamesguru is right and it's indeed an antagonist of the receptor.

With these remedies I don't have problems during the day meanwhile rapidly reducing the doses. But I am having trouble staying asleep and with nightmares. I don't want to resort to antipsychotics. 25mg of quetiapine did knock me out but put me into stange sleep-paralysis type of state and still had bizarre nightmares. Valerian root seems completely useless even up to 10 gram doses. I'm trying different brand now but not very optimistic.

 

Hope this helps someone. I'm getting some Kava soon but it's mostly for recreational idea though. I'm probably gonna order some Fasoracetam too.

[airplanepeanuts]

 

this guy sounds like he could keep heroin in check.  If you're that good, phenibut could be safe to take forever.  As for pharms, yeah.. not too many.  Amulsipride, olazapine, piribedil, zyprexa, and citalopram (can backfire).  Other herbs are shilajit, yohombine, indian snake root.  Kratom too, I think the guy taking 7g daily could look into extacts?

 

@kt69

It's good to focus on this issue, but with how serious phenibut is, I'm not sure it's the best choice.

 

I don't think so the anhedonia or lack of joy is the main problem with your work (it's not with mine).  Hobbies? Yes.  I have more work problems from lack of intent (identity), emotional aloneness (reactive), and just complaining or having negative thoughts in general.

 

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who drink rat urine, wonder what life could be and where the years have gone - and those who take the risk, consume a powder from the former USSR comrades, grab life by the balls, get laid and live the dream.

 

Is this really a dream? Basically you are a junkie.

[Galaxyshock]

Is this really a dream? Basically you are a junkie.

 

I rather be a functional junkie than useless alcoholic anhedonic piece of shit. I'm getting more things done now, even with withdrawal symptoms from cutting the doses I feel better than before taking Phenibut. If it's my drug of choice then so be it. I'm planning to go off by summer to see how I feel without it, and try some other methods.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 29 March 2017 - 01:13 AM.

[airplanepeanuts]

If alcoholism is the alternative okay maybe it's the way to go. Otherwise don't give up prematurely to find something else that works without dose escalation.

[Galaxyshock]

If alcoholism is the alternative okay maybe it's the way to go. Otherwise don't give up prematurely to find something else that works without dose escalation.

 

I'm always open for something else to treat my condition. I do not like this habit, but at the moment it's just working damn well.

 

Yeah I was turning alcoholic last fall. My liver values went really bad and I was feeling like shit. So of course this is lesser evil.

 

I was up to 15 grams at saturday. It's been six days and I'm now only taking 7 grams and it has been pretty much painless with my remedy. Only some boredom, irritability, impatience and anhedonic feelings that pass. Oh, and I'm sleeping very well again. Don't see why not I could cut Phenibut out entirely if I want to.

 

Kava Kava is pretty nice stuff. It's anxiolytic and mild euphoriant that lasts about one and a half hours. There are even anecdotes online it reversing Phenibut tolerance. My though is that it's because of its MAO-B inhibition, which increases levels of Phenylethylamine, endogenous GABA-B antagonist - thus upregulating GABA-B. Meanwhile the anxiolysis covers any anxiety that the increase of PEA could induce. Just my thoughts, could be something else going on.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 31 March 2017 - 06:22 AM.

[Galaxyshock]

I realized I couldn't handle Phenibut responsibly after all. I kept taking the occasional recreational dose which lead to rapid increase in tolerance. So I'm coming off. I take 3 grams in the morning and 2 grams at night. I have some manageable tolerance-withdrawal symptoms during the day, but restless sleep at night. I ran out of Valerian which I think made me sleep more restful after all at those 5-10 gram doses. I could take Olanzapine to knock me out for 10+ hours but I don't like that drug. Diazepam seems to help a lot but I don't want to pop those like candy either. Interestingly despite my high-seeking doses and chronic usage, that 3 gram morning dose still has those therapeutic effects although they wear off faster now. So I'm pretty sure the sweet spot is there somewhere at 2-4 grams and if you can take it responsibly it's a considerable option, but Phenibut is a drug - not a supplement. 

 

Fortunately I think I've found something that may work for anhedonia and depressive symptoms quite remarkably - combination of SSRI and Ginseng. I made a thread about it. Something effective for anxiolysis and I'll be good. I think Gotu Kola, Bacopa, Ashwagandha may do the job. I may come back to Phenibut at some point, but with much more cautious approach. The thing with Phenibut is that in higher doses it can make you live in a candyland and so care-free that even if you got to know that you have terminal-stage cancer you would be like "fine OK I'll enjoy the rest of my days dancing around". And I'm saying this in a forum where people are afraid of dying and resorting to cryonics and such.

Edited by Galaxyshock, 16 April 2017 - 05:18 AM.

[Suirsuss]

Be warned; the website mentioned here may be fake,  J. Gona states he is and his organizations, Oracle Laboratories or NeuroPsych Institute, are not associated with the website.

 

-John Gona

Neurobiologist,
Psychopharmacologist,
Psychotropic Treatment Specialist

Oracle Laboratories
NeuroPsych Institute

 

 

Um, excuse me but considering your credentials: are you dumb? 

 

...

 

So how can you even promote GABA agonists for anxiety?

 

 

 

Good grief, credentials? While John seems well researched in the PD of GABAergics and may very well have a background in the sciences or pharmacology, you'd barely have to hit search before the familiar scent of smoked, delicious sardines wafts on by. The  Oracle Laboratories   site is stuffed with  bold claims of custom building just about every instrument used in an entire university chemistry department, along with the software. All this and the webpage is constructed with a free website builder. 

 

I found this all pretty funny; however, the other webpage generated from the same site was a bit concerning. This site is designed to sell an untested 3 drug mixture, "Phylaxa," for use as an anti-anaphylactic. Though the product is not for sale now, there are warnings, and there would likely be little chance of anyone finding the site, its concerning. Fake school on his facebook... name is John Mendola on the phylaxa site...  Ugh then I wasted too much time trying to search  for the patents. 

 

Guess it raised my flags and didn't want to throw accusations around before having a case.

 

If these are all hoax pages. Congrats. Think I have some stiff passionflower tea to nurse.

 

 

 

Pleas not moderator comments at the head of this post. --  Max Watt

Edited by maxwatt, 27 November 2017 - 02:44 AM.