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Strategie to increase Dopamine

dopamine neurotransmitter energy supplements

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#1 mcc23

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 03:45 PM


Hey guys so I've been a lurker around here for a while and have always been impressed with the conversation that takes place on here, especially regarding supplements and supplement science. I had a couple questions and was hoping someone could provide me with some assistance.

 

So after a crummy breakup last summer I decided to look into some supplements to help lift my mood. Obviously dopamine is one of the main pleasure chemicals in the brain, so I opted for a precursor, Phenylalanine. More specifically DLPA. I have tried L-tyrosine in the past but it literally worked for me 1 time. I have to say that taking this supplement (Phenylalanine) in doses of 1.5-2 grams gave me incredible motivation, energy and just an overall great sense of well being. I recall feeling an increase in "impulsivity" which I think for me was actually a good thing because I have a bad habit of waiting and constantly over thinking things. I wanted to just go and DO stuff and felt almost fearless. Different things that I was on the fence about doing (special certification exams for personal training, etc) I went ahead and just signed up for without thought. It was a miracle supplement for me, honestly. But as we know here on Longecity, most supplements can lose their punch after a while and we need to take some time off to reduce that tolerance. 

 

After noticing a reduction in effects, I decided to take some time off of the DLPA. Unfortunately after resuming it, I couldn't get anywhere near the same effects as I did last summer. So I decided to dig a little deeper into what could be causing the tolerance. Initially I thought it was just your regular receptor desensitization taking place, but figured that would correct after cessation. Didn't work. But now I'm wondering if perhaps the co-factors required for the synthesis of these chemicals along the whole cascade from Phenylalanine to Dopamine and Epinepherine have become depleted.

I did a little research and it appears that Phenylalanine -> Tyrosine utilizes the BH4 enzyme and can be increased by Sam-e, folic acid, and vitamin C. Tyrosine -> l-Dopa utilizes the same enzyme but also requires ferrous iron. L-Dopa -> Dopamine requires b6. Dopamine -> NE requires Vitamin C and NE-> E enzyme is increased by SAM-e again.

 

I'm wondering if perhaps I need to replenish these co-factors as a means to regain the effects of the Phenylalanine that I got the first time.

Another possibility is perhaps the overload of dopamine at the time caused an imbalance between that and serotonin and maybe the effects of dopamine will be reduced until sufficient serotonin is available?

I also won a free supplement off of amazon and opted for Phenylethylamine. I'm thinking about combining that with an MAOB inhibitor.

I'm interested to hear everyone thoughts about ways to elicit that same effect again.

 

Thank you!


Edited by mcc23, 29 June 2017 - 03:47 PM.


#2 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:00 PM

You're not going to achieve anything with those vitamins and supplements. You will need something that is selective.

People in the modern world have various mutations that increases monoamine neurotransmitters. That's what makes us more emotional, passionate, desiring, etc., compared to ancient people in Africa.

 

You may have an isolated deficiency in some brain region but good luck doing anything about that without pharmaceutical selective agonists and enhancers.


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#3 Jiminy Glick

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 01:48 AM

Ashwagandha increases dopamine levels, buy the powder though. Curcumin does as well I think, you would need to get it with bioperine. 


Edited by Jiminy Glick, 30 June 2017 - 01:50 AM.

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#4 normalizing

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 04:40 AM

jiminy glick is very educated. listen to him!


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#5 mcc23

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:14 PM

just ashwaganda? Did you read the thread?

#6 mcc23

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 05:09 PM

I appreciate the replies so far but I was hoping someone could go into greater detail and provide a little more feedback. Thanks!


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#7 mcc23

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:06 PM

I should add that I tried experimenting with a higher dose of L-Tyrosine earlier and got next to no effect.



#8 Jiminy Glick

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:19 PM

just ashwaganda? Did you read the thread?

 

Yeah I read the thread. Ashwagandha and a few other things should do it for. A teaspoon of Ashwagandha, doesn't matter if you have over the recommended, a heavy teaspoon will do fine. Curcumin with bioperine would be a nice combination if you can get your hands on some powder, pills are a waste of money, I think you might have to take Curcumin with a meal (I don't take it). Besides that I would recommend Magnesium Glycinate powder and a multivitamin without Magnesium Stearate from the NOW brand. 


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#9 Darryl

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:01 PM

Fava beans, a natural source of L-dopa. Do note that like any neurotransmitter modulation, adaptation and discontinuation syndromes/physical addiction is possible.

 

Rabey et al, 1992. Broad bean (Vicia faba) consumption and Parkinson's diseaseAdvances in neurology60, pp.681-684.

Apaydin et al, 2000. Broad bean (Vicia faba)—A natural source of L‐dopa—Prolongs “on” periods in patients with Parkinson's disease who have “on–off” fluctuationsMovement Disorders15(1), pp.164-166.

Ladha et al, 2005. Case of neuroleptic malignant‐like syndrome precipitated by abrupt fava bean discontinuanceMovement disorders20(5), pp.630-631.


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#10 normalizing

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:11 AM

jiminy glick, you have zero education it seems if you recommend curcumin for boosting dopamine. there are zero studies relating the two in any way shape or form, but most likely curcumin seems to have caused actual libido reduction in some people taking it, so it could actually be opposite of dopamine booster. it just bothers me how freely you recommend things you don know anything about to noobies, they might just take you serious which is ridiculous!


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#11 mcc23

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 01:57 PM

jiminy glick, you have zero education it seems if you recommend curcumin for boosting dopamine. there are zero studies relating the two in any way shape or form, but most likely curcumin seems to have caused actual libido reduction in some people taking it, so it could actually be opposite of dopamine booster. it just bothers me how freely you recommend things you don know anything about to noobies, they might just take you serious which is ridiculous!

 

Can anyone go into some detail on how I can get the same effects of the Phenylalanine that I got the first time I started supplementing it? Is it perhaps the cofactors that could be depleted? D receptor density?



#12 airplanepeanuts

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 06:20 PM

Try SAM-e, maybe it will get PA to work again. It might also work for depression by itself.



#13 Jiminy Glick

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 07:05 PM

jiminy glick, you have zero education it seems if you recommend curcumin for boosting dopamine. there are zero studies relating the two in any way shape or form, but most likely curcumin seems to have caused actual libido reduction in some people taking it, so it could actually be opposite of dopamine booster. it just bothers me how freely you recommend things you don know anything about to noobies, they might just take you serious which is ridiculous!

 

Hazy I said I think Curcumin does. I found this study, also there is a lot on the internet about it:

 

https://link.springe...0213-008-1300-y

 

L-Theanine also raises dopamine. Are you telling me if this guy is taking Ashwagandha, Curcumin, L-Theanine, and Magnesium Glycinate he is not going to feel good? 


Edited by Jiminy Glick, 03 July 2017 - 07:16 PM.


#14 mcc23

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:38 AM

 

jiminy glick, you have zero education it seems if you recommend curcumin for boosting dopamine. there are zero studies relating the two in any way shape or form, but most likely curcumin seems to have caused actual libido reduction in some people taking it, so it could actually be opposite of dopamine booster. it just bothers me how freely you recommend things you don know anything about to noobies, they might just take you serious which is ridiculous!

 

Hazy I said I think Curcumin does. I found this study, also there is a lot on the internet about it:

 

https://link.springe...0213-008-1300-y

 

L-Theanine also raises dopamine. Are you telling me if this guy is taking Ashwagandha, Curcumin, L-Theanine, and Magnesium Glycinate he is not going to feel good? 

 


 

 

All I'm looking for is a way to replicate the effects of the Phenylalanine the first time I added it to my daily stack. I've tried supplementing with L-Tyrosine in doses a high as 4 grams at a time with little to no effect. PEA alone did nothing for me at 2 grams but I've read an MAOB inhibitor is needed with this. I've also tried abstaining from Phenylalanine usage for several months. That didn't help either. I'm starting to think that perhaps its desensitization of the post-synaptic cleft to DA release. The next thing I'm thinking of trying is an MAOI like Hordenine.


Edited by mcc23, 04 July 2017 - 01:38 AM.


#15 normalizing

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 02:32 AM

i had the same experience with phenylalanine when i was young. it would feel like XTC, but i tried it many many times over during the years, it wont do a damn thing. not sure what its mechanism is, but many people have complained of the same problem it seems. in my case i assume, i did hard drugs and then trying to replicate the effects with it again would never work? did you do hard drugs by any chance??

anyway, you want real good suitable MAOI, try selegiline or moclobemide and dump herbal stuff. those two are actually highly underrated but also very well researched as neuroprotectants AND dopamine boosters. just dont mix them, ill probably suggest using one for a week then one week off and using the other to compare. people swear selegilne is better, but i personally found moclobemide to work much better.



#16 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:45 PM

You're confused as to what dopamine does. Dopamine doesn't brighten your mood necessarily, it may cause dysphoria. Doesn't necessarily improve libido either. Neurotransmitters are much more complicated


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#17 normalizing

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 06:26 AM

interesting then, why would anything that is shown to boost dopamine did cause me mood brightness and libido enhancement and anything against dopamine caused the opposite, lethargy and dysphoria?? i agree with the part saying neurotransmission is a complex module but dopamine boost is usually A GOOD thing, unless you overdo it which is shown to cause schizophrenic symptoms


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#18 mcc23

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 12:41 PM

interesting then, why would anything that is shown to boost dopamine did cause me mood brightness and libido enhancement and anything against dopamine caused the opposite, lethargy and dysphoria?? i agree with the part saying neurotransmission is a complex module but dopamine boost is usually A GOOD thing, unless you overdo it which is shown to cause schizophrenic symptoms

This was more along the lines of my school of thought l. I'd still love to figure out a way to replicate the effects of the first bottle of Phenylalanine. Changed my life.

Thank you for the replies so far. Were not quite to the answer yet but I think we're moving in the right direction

#19 PeaceAndProsperity

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 03:03 PM

Different brain areas. There is no doubt that dopamine plays a large role in libido and some role in mood, but taking very strong dopamine antagonists at max dosage (risperidone at 6mg oral) does not remove your libido or make you depressed.

 

Risperidone did make me very dysphoric but it was in a very bizarre way, it was not depression but something along the lines of unreal feelings, sort of like I was watching a horror movie and caught in it.

Also, on the max dosage of oral risperidone I was completely impotent, couldn't get a hard-on, yet I was still jacking off to porn on my computer even though I spend more than 30 minutes to no avail. So mentally my libido was still there although physically it was not.

Glutamate antagonists can also cause loss of libido and depression.

A thousand and one things are implicated in mood and libido.

 

If you are depressed then look into OVERactivity of monoamine neurotransmitters like serotonin. 


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#20 mcc23

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 04:56 PM

I'm thinking its desensitization of the dopamine receptor to the prior bombardment from Phenylalanine supplementation. Either that or depletion of the hydroxylase cofactors.



#21 mcc23

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 06:53 PM

Any other theories as to why Phenylalanine supplementation now does not elicit the same effects? I understand it's tolerance but I want to delve a little deeper into the MOA



#22 daniel11

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:27 PM

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.


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#23 mcc23

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:29 PM

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.

Daniel, 

 

Thank you for the recommendation. This was what I was thinking about doing. Would it be sufficient to take these cofactors along with the Phenylalanine? Or should I front load them for a few days before hand? And can you comment on whether you think this is the actual cause of the tolerance? 

 

Thank you!



#24 normalizing

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 01:56 AM

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.

 

too much coffee doesnt cause such deficiencies. it could be the alcohol or cigarettes or drugs maybe, but there is no study to say coffee removes folate and b6 not sure how you come up with that



#25 SearchHorizon

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 04:45 AM

Trying to raise dopamine to improve one's mood appears to be a logical approach. However, this approach also has big hurdles to overcome. Given that dopamine is THE neurotransmitter for controlling one's mood - haven't you wondered why drug companies have come up with SSRIs for treating depression?

 

Dopamine has a wide-ranging effects not only on mood, but also on energy management (e.g., food intake, energy expenditure, testosterone level, accurate energy distribution over different tissues, etc.). Thus, raising baseline dopamine may not only temporarily improve your mood, but affect all of the subsystems that depend on accurate and uneven calibration of dopamine levels. Therefore, when one targets dopamine (through pharmacological means), its effect tends to spillover to large sets of nerve clusters, affecting without discrimination all of the sub-systems related to energy management. To use an analogy, targeting dopamine to control your mood is like bringing a wall down to kill a mosquito sitting on it.

 

Now, if you could raise dopamine for specific receptors AND prevent any down regulation of the receptors for your mood, sure, PERHAPS you can try raising baseline dopamine..This is a big if. You can take supplements that are metabolized to produce dopamine, and hope that your system does the appropriate production of dopamine to adjust your mood level. 

 

Another approach is to use dopamine agonists. In this way, one can target specific receptor type(s). In practice, this doesn't work that well for various reasons. There are many drugs to target dopamine receptor types (e.g., bromocriptine, nicotine, cabergoline, etc.). The basic problems with these drugs all boil down to what I described above, and thus these drugs have messy side effects. 

 

Another approach is to indirectly raise dopamine (or mimic its effect), of course, by using drugs that increase other types of neurotransmitters, such as serotonin, in specific parts of neurons (e.g., pre-synaptic terminal). But this approach basically leads you down the path toward drugs that are currently used to treat depression (e.g., SSRI), with undesirable side effects.

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by SearchHorizon, 06 July 2017 - 04:50 AM.

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#26 daniel11

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:15 AM

 

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.

 

too much coffee doesnt cause such deficiencies. it could be the alcohol or cigarettes or drugs maybe, but there is no study to say coffee removes folate and b6 not sure how you come up with that

 

 

Actually - it does. And there is a study: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/18606630

 

Keep in mind that everybody's different. Maybe my kindeys aren't that sufficient at reabsorbing water soluble vitamins and when I was drinking 6 strong coffees a day it was the last straw... I did blood tests - folate below the reference range and b6 on the lower end of the reference range. They made a tremendous difference when I started supplementing. I wasn't drinking any alcohol at the time. Cigarettes - yes, but I have been smoking for 17 years and this didn't cause any deficiencies prior to the caffeine marathon.



#27 daniel11

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:28 AM

 

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.

Daniel, 

 

Thank you for the recommendation. This was what I was thinking about doing. Would it be sufficient to take these cofactors along with the Phenylalanine? Or should I front load them for a few days before hand? And can you comment on whether you think this is the actual cause of the tolerance? 

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

I think it would be wiser to take the cofactors first and see how you feel for a few days and whether they make any difference on their own. The best approach whould be to have some blood tests done to see if anything's low - but you have to invest money in this. I would test vitamin b12, folate, b6, riboflavin, ferritin, copper and ceruloplasmin (copper is a dopamine and norepinephrin cofactor as well)

 

I'm not familiar with phenylalanine, but isn't a common sense that we get enough of it from our diet? It's logical that if you start bombarding your body with it - it would lead to transient overproduction of dopamine and then the receptors will downregulate. So you'll have to go through periods of taking it and abstaining from it, which means periods of feeling good and periods of feeling down.


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#28 mcc23

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 02:51 PM

 

 

Original poster, try taking the vitamin cofactors for dopamine production. I'm talking from experience here: they can make a huge difference. For instance in the past I developed folate and b6 deficiency due to overdrinking coffee. It killed my libido, my mood and drive. When I found out I was deficient, I started taking them and everything went back to normal.

 

In my opinion you shouldn't be taking things that our bodies don't necessarily require like l-theanine, green tea etc... Green tea for example is notorious for chelating iron out of the body. And you need iron for dopamine production.

Daniel, 

 

Thank you for the recommendation. This was what I was thinking about doing. Would it be sufficient to take these cofactors along with the Phenylalanine? Or should I front load them for a few days before hand? And can you comment on whether you think this is the actual cause of the tolerance? 

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

I think it would be wiser to take the cofactors first and see how you feel for a few days and whether they make any difference on their own. The best approach whould be to have some blood tests done to see if anything's low - but you have to invest money in this. I would test vitamin b12, folate, b6, riboflavin, ferritin, copper and ceruloplasmin (copper is a dopamine and norepinephrin cofactor as well)

 

I'm not familiar with phenylalanine, but isn't a common sense that we get enough of it from our diet? It's logical that if you start bombarding your body with it - it would lead to transient overproduction of dopamine and then the receptors will downregulate. So you'll have to go through periods of taking it and abstaining from it, which means periods of feeling good and periods of feeling down.

 

 

Thank you for the reply. I'm hoping it's an issue with the cofactors because I've already tried abstaining for months with no results.
 



#29 baccheion

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 03:45 PM

You could look into things that activate tyrosine hydroxylase (N-acetyl selank, bromantane, forskolin, maybe rhodiola, etc) and/or inhibit MAO-B (selegiline, neuravena, maybe quercetin, etc). You can then add uridine monophosphate, as it protects against dopamine receptor downregulation. That is:

 

- Active b-complex or multivitamin (AOR Ortho-Core, for example)

- Fish oil (triple strength)

- Uridine monophosphate (150mg sublingually)

- Bromantane? N-acetyl selank?


Edited by baccheion, 06 July 2017 - 04:00 PM.

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#30 mcc23

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:07 PM

I was wondering if anyone else had any more feedback. Thanks







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