73 replies to this topic

[YoungSchizo]

Second day: unsuccessful, 200mg Valerian did nothing, after 2 hours tossing and turning I added another 400mg (600mg which is used in sleep study's) did nothing. But I haven't given up on it yet, maybe I made a huge mistake by skipping my 1.5/2mg daily dose of Clonazepam, I don't know. Yesterday I didn't feel paranoid or anxious at all so I thought maybe I have 2 benefits in 1 supplementation of Valerian. I still haven't taken Clonazepam though, let's see what'll happen today.

I'll report back whenever I feel like I maybe have found something.

BTW. I thought they had the stronger anti-histamines like Baclofen and Cyproheptadine in the Netherlands but they haven't. They only have the newer ones like Cetrizine. So I bought that one but it's too early to hop on another boat.

[Mind_Paralysis]

Second day: unsuccessful, 200mg Valerian did nothing, after 2 hours tossing and turning I added another 400mg (600mg which is used in sleep study's) did nothing. But I haven't given up on it yet, maybe I made a huge mistake by skipping my 1.5/2mg daily dose of Clonazepam, I don't know. Yesterday I didn't feel paranoid or anxious at all so I thought maybe I have 2 benefits in 1 supplementation of Valerian. I still haven't taken Clonazepam though, let's see what'll happen today.

I'll report back whenever I feel like I maybe have found something.

BTW. I thought they had the stronger anti-histamines like Baclofen and Cyproheptadine in the Netherlands but they haven't. They only have the newer ones like Cetrizine. So I bought that one but it's too early to hop on another boat.

 

Not gonna' work mate... Cetirizine is specifically created to pass less through the blood-brain barrier - yes, a minority do get some drowsiness from them, but it's to a lesser extent.

 

EDIT:

Doesn't only the H1-antagonists whom also have affinity for the 5ht2a-receptor have evidence backing up sleep-quality, btw? I'm fairly certain you've been on MIRTAZAPINE in the past, right? Why not go back on that?

Edited by Mind_Paralysis, 10 March 2019 - 10:14 PM.

[YoungSchizo]

Not gonna' work mate... Cetirizine is specifically created to pass less through the blood-brain barrier - yes, a minority do get some drowsiness from them, but it's to a lesser extent.

Yeah, I have no high hopes of it either since I might need first not second (like Cert) generation antihistamines

EDIT:

Doesn't only the H1-antagonists whom also have affinity for the 5ht2a-receptor have evidence backing up sleep-quality, btw? I'm fairly certain you've been on MIRTAZAPINE in the past, right? Why not go back on that?

I can't get back on Mirtazapine because it interacts severely with Latuda. I love Mirtazapine but Latuda more because that's the med that keeps me sane.

[YoungSchizo]

The past two days I've been using an OTC sleep aid called Power Sleep plus 600mg Valerian extract. And I must say, even though I still wake up a couple times a night. I manage to fall asleep quite fast again and sleep 7-9 hours and wake up refreshed plus a better mood all day long. That's a little miracle but I'm not satisfied yet so I ordered Clonidine and Cyproheptadine. I have high hopes of Clonidine since it can knock out people that use stimulants. Cyproheptadine not so much afterwards because I just read it's a fat maker and it's used in anorexia patients.

Anyway, it can take a few weeks before it arrives. I was wondering (aside from Valerian) which ingredients in the OTC Power Sleep formula helps me sleep better.

The ingredients:
400mg L-Tryptophan
250mg Eschscholtzia Californica
100mg L-Lysine Hydrochloride
(100mg Valerian extract)
18mg Vitamin B3
3.5mg Vitamin B6
6mg Vitamin B5
0.29mg Melatonin (I know it's not this one)

Ideas?

[YoungSchizo]

The past two days I've been using an OTC sleep aid called Power Sleep plus 600mg Valerian extract. And I must say, even though I still wake up a couple times a night. I manage to fall asleep quite fast again and sleep 7-9 hours and wake up refreshed plus a better mood all day long. That's a little miracle but I'm not satisfied yet so I ordered Clonidine and Cyproheptadine. I have high hopes of Clonidine since it can knock out people that use stimulants. Cyproheptadine not so much afterwards because I just read it's a fat maker and it's used in anorexia patients.

Anyway, it can take a few weeks before it arrives. I was wondering (aside from Valerian) which ingredients in the OTC Power Sleep formula helps me sleep better.

The ingredients:
400mg L-Tryptophan
250mg Eschscholtzia Californica
100mg L-Lysine Hydrochloride
(100mg Valerian extract)
18mg Vitamin B3
3.5mg Vitamin B6
6mg Vitamin B5
0.29mg Melatonin (I know it's not this one)

Ideas?

Nevermind, I did some research into each individual ingredient and now somewhat understand why this combo promotes a better night sleep and a decrease in depression and anxiety during daytime. I hope to make my own sleep formula in the future.

I had given up on supps and herbs but with these results I'm interested again.

I wish I was handy on sharing my findings in a understandible manner but unfortunately I'm not.

[YoungSchizo]

FINALLY!!! After 2.5 years of suffering, my psychiatrist blaming my sleep habits and not willing to prescribe any other sleep medication than Temazepam and two times a misdiagnoses from my sleep-doc/sleep-study my sleep maintenance insomnia is resolved        

 

After CWF1986 advice on Clonidine, I started investigating that drug and was quite impressed that it suppresses REM sleep and increase NREM sleep and by the fact it even can knock out people that use amphetamines (I don't but I thought if it can knock out someone who is high on "speed" it sure has the potential to maybe knock me out) I ordered 90 tabs. I went from 0.1mg all the way up to 0.7mg, 0.5-0.7mg being the dosage for insomnia. Initially 0.1mg pretty much doing nothing, on 0.3mg I noticed I still woke up frequently but didn't recall my dreams and would fall back at sleep automatically and wake up after 4 hours (which is normal for me) I added 40mg Temazepam and sleep another 4 hours, waking up fully refreshed. At 0.5 - 0.6 - 0.7mg it even worked better and didn't need to add Temazepam but I started suffering from side-effects during the day like dizziness, low blood pressure, muscle weakness, tiredness and tinnitus (tinnitus if I would wake up in the middle of the night and go to the bathroom). I cut back to 0.5mg, then cut back to 0.3mg, which is the dosage I have minimal side-effects but doesn't put and keep me at sleep. I now add 40mg Temazepam to 0.3mg Clonidine and I sleep like a baby (Clonidine is also know for potentiating benzodiazepines so I guess it works synergic with Temazepam). I still wake up now and then but it doesn't bother me anymore because I almost don't recall it and sleep very deep (without interference of dreaming and waking up frequently). 

 

And I'm really impressed by Valerian root extract (it's very relaxing and very anxiolytic), L-Thryptophan and 5-HTP (very strong antidepressant effect).

 

Anyway thank you guys for all the advice and especially thank you CWF1986 for advising Clonidine!

 

 

(And btw. I fired that cunt of a psychiatrist of mine, that stupid fucking moron that kept blaming me and my lifestyle for my sleep-disorder.)

Edited by YoungSchizo, 05 April 2019 - 01:24 PM.

[CWF1986]

That's awsome!  I'm glad I was able to help at all.

 

For me, tolerance builds quickly with valerian.  Just something to look out for.  

[sentics]

glycine. It's like a miracle drug. I take 2 to 3g per night and I get amazing deep sleep, with distinct metal clarity the next day.

 

 

https://www.reddit.c...use_of_glycine/

[BlueCloud]

 I have high hopes of Clonidine since it can knock out people that use stimulants. Cyproheptadine not so much afterwards because I just read it's a fat maker and it's used in anorexia patients.

 

I've used cyproheptadine on and off for years for insomnia and deep sleep. It works very well. Takes on average 4 hours to start working, and tolerance can develop after a few days, so don't use it more than 2 or 3 times a week.

about the "fat" thing, it's just that it may increase appetite in some people, so yes it is used unofficially on anorexia patients. It did increase my appetite but just a lirttle bit, not in any way significant to make a difference.

[YoungSchizo]

I've used cyproheptadine on and off for years for insomnia and deep sleep. It works very well. Takes on average 4 hours to start working, and tolerance can develop after a few days, so don't use it more than 2 or 3 times a week.
about the "fat" thing, it's just that it may increase appetite in some people, so yes it is used unofficially on anorexia patients. It did increase my appetite but just a lirttle bit, not in any way significant to make a difference.

Do you notice a difference in the frequency of dreams and/or difference in content of dreams?

I'm very happy with Clonidine, not because it makes me sleep but it actually "stops" dreaming. I still wake up frequently but my sleep is so consistent I don't even get bothered by waking up and sleep a total of 8 hours refreshing deep sleep.

I will most likely run out of Clonidine before my next order arrives so I'll probably try Cyproheptadine till it's here. Also, what dosage do you use?

Edited by YoungSchizo, 16 April 2019 - 12:14 AM.

[BlueCloud]

Do you notice a difference in the frequency of dreams and/or difference in content of dreams?

I'm very happy with Clonidine, not because it makes me sleep but it actually "stops" dreaming. I still wake up frequently but my sleep is so consistent I don't even get bothered by waking up and sleep a total of 8 hours refreshing deep sleep.

I will most likely run out of Clonidine before my next order arrives so I'll probably try Cyproheptadine till it's here. Also, what dosage do you use?

 

Less dreams yes, or more precisely I don't notice them as much. It definitely increases deep sleep. I take one pill dosed at 4mg.

[YoungSchizo]

Tolerance lurking a couple days around the corner and boom it hits me goddammit..

This sucks really bad, I'd finally had a cure, and now this happens..

Tips/advises?

[Mind_Paralysis]

Tolerance lurking a couple days around the corner and boom it hits me goddammit..

This sucks really bad, I'd finally had a cure, and now this happens..

Tips/advises?

 

You have to take a tolerance-break - simple as that. About a month or so, should do it.

How long would you say Clonidine worked before you got tolerance to the effects? Take that in mind, and plan your breaks according to that.

 

 

Another thing is of course to look into other 5ht2a-antagonists to use in the interrim - you mentioned how Mirtazapine f*cked with your antipsychotics - have you tried Trazodone instead? It's got an even greater affinity for the 5ht2a-receptor, than Mirtazapine.

 

Have your Dr. explained anything about how the interaction between Mirtazapine and Lurasidone (latuda) most likely works? Is it just the fact that Lurasidone is also a 5ht2a-antagonist, which then means the 5ht2a-antagonism of Mirtazapine interferes to some extent with the antipsychotic effects of Lurasidone?

 

 

Your best bet is probably to rotate different compounds:

 

Day 1-4: Clonidine

 

Day 5-8: Gabapentin

 

Day 9-12: Trazodone + some other antipsychotic than Lurasidone (one with strong antipsych-properties, but very little in the way of 5ht2a-antagonism)

 

 

I also found two other options - they may seem a bit unrealistic, but they could well be long-term goals to strive for:

 

 

 

Can Slow-Wave Sleep Enhancement Improve Memory? A Review of Current Approaches and Cognitive Outcomes

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6430170/

slow-oscillatory transcranial direct current stimulation (so-tDCS) - aka, you attach electrodes and sensors to your skull, and allow a simple computer to modulate the electrical activity. I can see how this might well be possible to create with a DIY solution... the right algorithm, a Raspberry Pie and some electrodes.

 

 

State-Dependent Alterations in Sleep/wake Architecture Elicited by the M₄ PAM VU0467154- Relation to Antipsychotic-like Drug Effects

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4809053/

 

Here's something bloody well state of the art! VU0467154 is a new form of antipsychotic - an M4-Pam - a modulator of M₄ muscarinic acetylcholine receptor - this study shows that it may not just have effects on positive and negative symptoms, but also on Sleep-quality! It increases SWA - and as you know, increasing SWA stage 4 sleep, decreases REM stage 3 sleep, i.e you dream less.

 

 

Maybe consider a group buy or custom synthesis of VU or some other M4-PAM? (there appears to be multiple others)

[YoungSchizo]

You have to take a tolerance-break - simple as that. About a month or so, should do it.

How long would you say Clonidine worked before you got tolerance to the effects? Take that in mind, and plan your breaks according to that.

 

 

Another thing is of course to look into other 5ht2a-antagonists to use in the interrim - you mentioned how Mirtazapine f*cked with your antipsychotics - have you tried Trazodone instead? It's got an even greater affinity for the 5ht2a-receptor, than Mirtazapine.

 

Have your Dr. explained anything about how the interaction between Mirtazapine and Lurasidone (latuda) most likely works? Is it just the fact that Lurasidone is also a 5ht2a-antagonist, which then means the 5ht2a-antagonism of Mirtazapine interferes to some extent with the antipsychotic effects of Lurasidone?

 

 

Your best bet is probably to rotate different compounds:

 

Day 1-4: Clonidine

 

Day 5-8: Gabapentin

 

Day 9-12: Trazodone + some other antipsychotic than Lurasidone (one with strong antipsych-properties, but very little in the way of 5ht2a-antagonism)

 

 

I also found two other options - they may seem a bit unrealistic, but they could well be long-term goals to strive for:

 

 

 

Can Slow-Wave Sleep Enhancement Improve Memory? A Review of Current Approaches and Cognitive Outcomes

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6430170/

slow-oscillatory transcranial direct current stimulation (so-tDCS) - aka, you attach electrodes and sensors to your skull, and allow a simple computer to modulate the electrical activity. I can see how this might well be possible to create with a DIY solution... the right algorithm, a Raspberry Pie and some electrodes.

 

 

State-Dependent Alterations in Sleep/wake Architecture Elicited by the M₄ PAM VU0467154- Relation to Antipsychotic-like Drug Effects

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4809053/

 

Here's something bloody well state of the art! VU0467154 is a new form of antipsychotic - an M4-Pam - a modulator of M₄ muscarinic acetylcholine receptor - this study shows that it may not just have effects on positive and negative symptoms, but also on Sleep-quality! It increases SWA - and as you know, increasing SWA stage 4 sleep, decreases REM stage 3 sleep, i.e you dream less.

 

 

Maybe consider a group buy or custom synthesis of VU or some other M4-PAM? (there appears to be multiple others)

 

Right now I can't do much about my medication since I fired my psychiatrist and my GP doesn't look into psychotropic medication. AFAIK I am the only one that knows about the Lurasidone and Mirtazapine interaction. Yesterday I mixed Clonidine and Cyproheptadine, even though I couldn't sleep when I wanted to, it eventually knocked the fuck me out and today I don't recollect what happened yesterday evening/morning at all even though I've been awake 2 times

.

I already tried Trazodone on a low dose, I might consider giving it another shot on a higher dose though but I'm not really a big fan of sedating medication that also affects my mental health when I am awake.  

Also Clonidine is a medication that you probably can't cycle since it has side-effects if you quit it instantly. Gabapentin and Pregabalin makes my positive symptoms worse, I wouldn't want to touch that and it does not do anything for me with sleep issues. I guess I have to go with older anti-histamines (that are not available in the Netherlands) if I want to cycle medication since I cannot and am not willing to get of Lurasidone. Lurasidone is such an effective antipsychotic med for me that all other medications has to work with it or I wouldn't take it.