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Megadose vitamin A, D3, E, and K2

retinyl acetate vitamin d

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#31 Dorian Grey

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:27 AM

"The free-radical theory of aging is dead"

 

The anti-oxidant theory of longevity may be dead, but hydroxyl radicals (via fenton reaction) are known to be the most destructive element in human physiology.  Vitamin-C has actually been shown to predispose fenton activity through redox cycling of iron.  

 

Improved iron homeostasis through iron reduction (bloodletting) & chelating nutrients (quercetin, curcumin & IP6) should control destructive fenton chemistry, which logically should promote health & longevity.  

 

No conclusive "proof" of ferrotoxic disease as a prime cause of accelerated aging, but the evidence is piling up.  

 

http://www.longecity...isease-omnibus/

 

A word to the wise...  


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#32 baccheion

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:52 AM

Why on earth you would want to take that much preformed Vitamin E???[/size]

Miller et al, 2005. Meta-analysis: high-dosage vitamin E supplementation may increase all-cause mortality. [/size]Annals of internal medicine, [/size]142(1), pp.37-46.[/size]

9 of 11 trials testing high-dosage vitamin E (≥400 IU/d) showed increased risk (risk difference > 0) for all-cause mortality in comparisons of vitamin E versus control. The pooled all-cause mortality risk difference in high-dosage vitamin E trials was 39 per 10 000 persons (95% CI, 3 to 74 per 10 000 persons; [/size]P = 0.035).[/size]


Yes, there have been subsequent meta-analyses that aggregated high and low dose vitamin E and found no effect.

Bear in mind, no intervention with well-absorbed direct antioxidants (eg, C, E, carotenes) has increased lifespan in a mammalian model, at least since the era of calorie matched interventions and controls. The free-radical theory of aging is dead. There's still possibly a benefit for hormetins (see NIA ITP results with NDGA and Protandim in male mice), many of which have either antioxidant or prooxidant activity in vitro, but no vitamins fall in this category.
Are any of the concerns relevant given how long I plan to take these high amounts (6 months)?

Edited by baccheion, 31 January 2018 - 06:52 AM.


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#33 Nate-2004

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 03:32 PM

I don't think the free radical theory of aging is completely dead, it's just refined. ROS is definitely a mechanism in the process of aging but it's also a vital mechanism in what slows aging when it comes to exercise.

 

There are several mechanisms of aging as we know from SENS Research. 

 

Also, people have neglected to look at RNS as a target and only recently have they figured out that gamma tocopherol is responsible for mitigating RNS and according to this video, alpha tocopherol in excess can deplete levels of gamma tocopherol, though she doesn't cite any references that I can find either in the video or on Google.

 

 

Homeostasis is key here I think when it comes to antioxidants. Even more important is the timing of when you take them (at *least* 2 to 4 hours after a workout) and how regularly you exercise.

 

The oxidation theory isn't dead, it's a problem that causes the very DNA damage we're hoping those in the field can help undo with rejuvenation technology. P53 is largely responsible for that repair mechanism and anything that helps with that is good (I think sulforaphane is one of those things). Also, DNA repair is why vitamin D is also so important as I mentioned earlier.

 

 

 

 


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#34 baccheion

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 11:24 AM

Just over 3 months in (50,000 IU D3 + 200,000 IU palmitate + 1600 IU E + 15-30 mg MK-4): still alive :).

Edited by baccheion, 14 April 2018 - 11:25 AM.

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#35 pamojja

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 12:02 PM

still alive :).

 

Good time interval to get some blood-work done. You not only want to survive, but very clear benefits.


Edited by pamojja, 14 April 2018 - 12:03 PM.

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#36 baccheion

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 02:28 AM

Good time interval to get some blood-work done. You not only want to survive, but very clear benefits.

I'll eventually visit the doctor. Effects can take months. If it doesn't work after 6 months, I plan to eliminate the other supplements, then take 50,000 IU D3 + 15 mg MK-4 + 60 mcg MK-7 + 300 mg magnesium + 125 mg iodide (from 162.5 mg potassium iodide) + Life Extension Two-per-day 5 days/week (equivalent to ~37,000 IU D3 per day). I'm not going to stop until it works.

On the other hand, if nothing happens after 6 months, I'll be suspicious, and if it's still the same after 1 year, I'll silently conclude megadosing is pointless (or unable to address the issues I have).

Edited by baccheion, 15 April 2018 - 02:37 AM.

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#37 pamojja

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 10:36 AM

However, to test all electrolytes, kidney and liver function, hormones, CBC, etc. is still a must, at much lower doses already.

 

I'll eventually visit the doctor.

 

Wow, you really risking much from your health, if you don't even get the most basic checkup: CBC, electrolytes, kidney and liver function - NOW!

 

 


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#38 ceridwen

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 11:59 AM

I thought there was more mortality associated with high levels of Vitamin D. This can be found somewhere on Science daily if you want to search.
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#39 ceridwen

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:06 PM

Also taking Vitamin A beta carotene increases cancer levels when exposed to cigarette smoke. I read that in an old New Scientist. I think this problem might extend to the effects of particulates in general. So if you live in or visit an area which suffers from air pollution you might be doing more harm than good through taking Vitamin A
Vitamin E increases stroke risk!
I found IP6 rather helpful but Im cycling it. I stop next week

#40 pamojja

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 12:34 PM

I thought there was more mortality associated with high levels of Vitamin D. This can be found somewhere on Science daily if you want to search.

 

Also taking Vitamin A beta carotene increases cancer levels when exposed to cigarette smoke. I read that in an old New Scientist. I think this problem might extend to the effects of particulates in general. So if you live in or visit an area which suffers from air pollution you might be doing more harm than good through taking Vitamin A
Vitamin E increases stroke risk!

 

If one reads the original studies, but not on science daily or new scientist, one finds that many of these studies had multiple issues making them all together not concerning at all.

 

Doesn't means that due to bio-chemical individuality (ie. preexisting kidney or live disease not diagnosed yet, subclinical deficiencies in nutrients in the same metabolic pathways, etc.) there could not be sudden non-reversible worsening. Therefore the strong urge to get tested now before it becomes too late.

 

You might as well just find everything is all right, even indeed improving. There is simply no down-side to lab-testing at this point (since these are all usually tested in a regular check-up covered by insurance), but the risks of harm it could prevent before it could get apparent is immense.

 

 


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#41 Believer

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 03:15 PM

I think my forehead has slightly grown on vitamin K. I already had a long and sloping forehead to begin with but it seems to me it might have gotten slightly longer.

It's also possible I simply lost weight which seems to reveal facial features more

 


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#42 baccheion

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Posted 15 April 2018 - 08:27 PM

I think my forehead has slightly grown on vitamin K. I already had a long and sloping forehead to begin with but it seems to me it might have gotten slightly longer.
It's also possible I simply lost weight which seems to reveal facial features more

What do you mean by grown? Width? Height? Protrusion? Hairline recession? How much vitamin K are you taking and what form(s)?

#43 ceridwen

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 03:27 AM

I think mine has shrunk since I became ill

#44 Believer

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Posted 16 April 2018 - 09:58 AM

What do you mean by grown? Width? Height? Protrusion? Hairline recession? How much vitamin K are you taking and what form(s)?

It appears that my hairline is receding but it is not hair loss causing it.

As for my jaw, it was always very prominent. I have the genetic defect with my jaw (whatever it's called) which causes it to hurt and make specific sounds if I bite the wrong way.

I had much more of this than I normally do when I first started the vitamin K, which would suggest my jaw did in fact grow a little. 


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#45 baccheion

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 09:10 PM

Test results are all in range (kidney, liver, CBC, whatever, etc). Vitamin D = 150 ng/mL, TSH = 3.82, total cholesterol = 218, and LDL = 135.

#46 pamojja

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 03:07 PM

@baccheion, how did your experiment now after more than 6 month go?

 

 

I am looking into this stack to:

- See what effects it will have
- Heal dental caries
- Regrow/regenerate broken teeth
- Remodel/grow bones
- Fix/grow a weak chin/mandibular
- Restore any damaged/weakened cartilage (spinal, especially)
- Remyelinate flairs/lesions
- Perhaps treat/cure schizophrenia-/OCD- like symptoms
- Heal whatever's problematic that I'm not aware of

 

Any improvements in what you originally aimed for? Or at least in lab-markers?

 

 



#47 baccheion

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 10:40 PM

@baccheion, how did your experiment now after more than 6 month go?



Any improvements in what you originally aimed for? Or at least in lab-markers?

I'm still going. Life Extension Two-per-day, 60,000 IU D3, 15 mg K2 MK-4, and 400 mg chelated/TRAACS magnesium. I haven't noticed any changes/improvements.
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#48 pamojja

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 10:48 PM

Thanks for the update!

 

So you discontinued the high vitamin A and E?

How is you 25(OH)D3 and serum calcium meanwhile?



#49 adamh

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 12:39 AM

I have read some convincing studies showing that alpha a tocopherol (e) gives no benefit unless the person is deficient and too much will out compete the other forms of e, there are at least 8 forms. Sorry I don't recall where I saw the studies so consider it an anecdote. Gamma e is very good there are other good forms too. Avoid A which is about all you will ever see in the grocery store or many other places. Eat food which contain e or buy a supplement with mixed tocopherols and tocotreinols. Not sure about the spelling lol. 

 


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#50 experimenting

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 12:55 AM

How in God's name are you taking 60k VitD daily and not itching so much from the calcium that you feel like you're gonna die...
Also not to hijack thread but can someone please tell me if Vit E supplementation is worthwhile and if so how much and what form?
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#51 Dorian Grey

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 03:16 AM

Intermission time?  OK.  Vitamin-E is the most common deficiency in the standard American diet.  Look at page 8 here:

 

https://www.ars.usda...bles2001-02.pdf

 

93%?  YIKES!  Vitamin-E is the bodies primary lipid antioxidant, and has been shown helpful with inflammation in fatty livers (PIVENS trial), and also slows progression of Alzheimer's, which makes me think it might also be a good prophylactic (neural myelin sheaths 70-80% lipids).  

 

I supplement with a fairly low dose (200IU) of "Natural" form Vitamin-E with "mixed tocopherols".  

 

There are actually 4 different forms of Vitamin-E (and 4 different forms of related tocotrienols) and mega-dosing the alpha form (found in most simple E supps) has been found to suppress activity of the lesser forms.  Gamma-E is supposed to be particularly important, and wise not to crush by taking too much alpha-E.  I've tried taking "High Gamma" E formulations, but something about high gamma smells awful & makes me queasy.   

 

Natural Vitamin-E with mixed tocopherols contains predominantly alpha-E, but also provides low doses of the other 3 toco's, which is better than a stand alone alpha-E.  I used to also take a tocotrienol supp, but discontinued these for a reason I can't recall right now.  

 

To tie this into the topic at hand...  I recommend avoiding mega-dosing of E in any form, but like most "essential nutrients", modest supplementation is probably wise; particularly when it comes to the most common deficiency of all the essential vitamins.  


Edited by Dorian Grey, 16 November 2018 - 03:22 AM.


#52 Phoebus

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 04:02 AM

How in God's name are you taking 60k VitD daily and not itching so much from the calcium that you feel like you're gonna die...
Also not to hijack thread but can someone please tell me if Vit E supplementation is worthwhile and if so how much and what form?

 

honestly just eat large amounts of fresh leafy greens. 

 

all the Vit E forms, plus K, Ca, Mg, Vit C, beta caratene, etc etc etc. 



#53 experimenting

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 04:17 AM

Yeah what does soil depletion have to do with it though?

I live in an urban environment and honestly I suspect that so much of what I eat just lacks nutrition even if it's the right kind of food (just taste how bland a Sweet green salad is)

#54 baccheion

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 05:03 AM

Thanks for the update!

So you discontinued the high vitamin A and E?
How is you 25(OH)D3 and serum calcium meanwhile?

I took vitamin A for 3 months and vitamin E for 6 months as I planned. No other reason.

How in God's name are you taking 60k VitD daily and not itching so much from the calcium that you feel like you're gonna die...Also not to hijack thread but can someone please tell me if Vit E supplementation is worthwhile and if so how much and what form?

Likely due to also taking sufficient magnesium and vitamin K2 MK-4.

Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) is best up to 100-200 IU and when taken as a complex including all 7 other forms. Many have genetic mutations that result in vitamin E causing inflammation rather than lowering it. Either way, one still needs at least the RDA.

Edited by baccheion, 16 November 2018 - 05:07 AM.


#55 pamojja

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for the update!

 

So you discontinued the high vitamin A and E?

How is you 25(OH)D3 and serum calcium meanwhile?

 

I took vitamin A for 3 months and vitamin E for 6 months as I planned. No other reason..

Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) is best up to 100-200 IU and when taken as a complex including all 7 other forms. Many have genetic mutations that result in vitamin E causing inflammation rather than lowering it. Either way, one still needs at least the RDA.

 

Thanks again. Excuse my curiosity, I still would be interested about your vitamin D and calcium serum levels now.

 

Measuring my inflammation (with chronic disease) most markers went down from very high (ESR, hsCRP, fibrinogen - only homocysteine till now seem unresponsive at in avg. 10 µmol/l), while supplementing comprehensively with about 340 mg/d alpha tocopherol, 320 mg/d mostly gamma, and about 100 mg/d of tocotrienols during the last 10 years.

 

However, interestingly I observed a baffling rise of inflammation markers and corresponding improvement of kidney and liver function each winter after being for 6 weeks on vacation on an South Indian beach, now already for 6 years. Where I stop most soft-gels like omega-3s and with it vitamin E. But add Ayurvedic liquid herbal extracts instead, not available at home.


Edited by pamojja, 16 November 2018 - 11:31 AM.


#56 experimenting

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 03:47 PM

I took vitamin A for 3 months and vitamin E for 6 months as I planned. No other reason.

Likely due to also taking sufficient magnesium and vitamin K2 MK-4.

Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) is best up to 100-200 IU and when taken as a complex including all 7 other forms. Many have genetic mutations that result in vitamin E causing inflammation rather than lowering it. Either way, one still needs at least the RDA.


I'm not really sure that's how this works. At 60k iu regardless of VitK I'm not sure you're doing right by your body.

Anyways, anyone know a good low dose E supp? And any specific benefits you guys have noticed?

#57 baccheion

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 03:21 AM

I'm not really sure that's how this works. At 60k iu regardless of VitK I'm not sure you're doing right by your body.

Anyways, anyone know a good low dose E supp? And any specific benefits you guys have noticed?

A study showed 65,000 IU vitamin D3 was taken for 2 years without issue.

#58 experimenting

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 04:11 AM

A study showed 65,000 IU vitamin D3 was taken for 2 years without issue.


Define "without issue". Think you need to listen to your body. If I megadose on D my sleep quality gets completely wrecked; if I add K back in I'm in this weird transition state in which I can hardly focus but also can't get a good rest.

I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just curious what exactly your goals are.

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#59 baccheion

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 06:37 AM

Define "without issue". Think you need to listen to your body. If I megadose on D my sleep quality gets completely wrecked; if I add K back in I'm in this weird transition state in which I can hardly focus but also can't get a good rest.

I'm not trying to pick an argument, I'm just curious what exactly your goals are.

I shared a link to the study and stated my goals in earlier posts.

A spike increases energy, though the effect tends to fade with regular use. Vitamin D also blocks melatonin release for a few hours, so it tends to be better in the AM. Insomnia is usually due to insufficient magnesium. Either way, I wouldn't recommend taking megadose amounts "just because."

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