11 replies to this topic

[Matt]

I've been on a vegan diet (for the most part) since 2012 and been vegetarian since 2007... 

 

How to start a vegan diet  <- see it here 

 

I've learned a lot since then, and also through my own complacency developed issues while on the diet that I hope others will avoid.

 

One of them was zinc deficiency which caused all kinds of problems, including a return of my dreaded acne that I suffered from years ago. And also got sick 3-4 times in a row and had a burst eardrum. 

Since taking zinc I've not been sick in over a year and my acne completely cleared up. I never figured the problem out for months...

 

I'm working on a few projects at the moment, but am more trying to post more frequently on my CR website as well.

 

I wrote a fairly long article yesterday which goes over some of the basics for people who are looking to start a vegan diet

 

some of the points in the article include:

 

- What is a vegan diet

- Choosing the best one

- Why people go on a vegan diet

- the main benefits and risks

- supplements

- which foods you should eat and what to avoid

- blood tests

- and other tests you should get done to measure progress.

 

I know a lot of the things will have been covered here and I know most of the more experienced members will know this already. But this is for people who are just getting started.

 

Again the article is still being developed and expanded over time. It'll probably be about 2-3 times the length it is right now by the end. I just need to find the time between this and other things.

 

If you have any questions, please just leave a comment here on it'd be great if nice on my blog (it'll make me happy lol).

 

Also if you think it's a decent article, please share it (it would help a lot).   

 

And check out my other recent articles! 

 

 

Matt 

Edited by Matt, 06 March 2018 - 11:54 PM.

[misterE]

New and upcoming vegans should look into the works of John McDougall.

Edited by misterE, 08 March 2018 - 05:41 PM.

[aza]

you might want to add

Choline 

Individual needs differ widely

According to this study, people who do not eat animal products average around 235mg http://mdpi.com/2072-6643/9/8/839.

That is only enough choline to potentially prevent a deficiency in a a bit less then half of the men in this study,

so yeah that is a massive amount of people who will probably not get enough on a vegan diet. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2435503/

 

Vitamin k2, which is primarily found in grassfed animal products and fermented food.'

 

Vitamin A status is also not guaranteed on a vegan diet, with the conversion of pro vitamin A carotinoids to retinol being highly variable.

Beta carotene metabolites called β-apocarotenoids are also anti vitamin A .http://www.jbc.org/c...nt/287/19/15886

 

Also maybe taurine (conditionally essential), glycine (semi-essential) and creatine, which may help boost cognitive functioning in vegetarians https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/21118604

 

IMO the best kind of veganism is bivalveganism, because at the very least it deals with iron, zinc and b12 deficiencies.

[mccoy]

 

IMO the best kind of veganism is bivalveganism, because at the very least it deals with iron, zinc and b12 deficiencies.

 

MMMmmm, judging from my 'cronometer' readings, iron and zinc are always more than 100% RDA, and I'm using a vegan RDA for iron of 14.4 mg which is almost 200% of the 8 mg of the omnivorous RDA. I'm attaching the cronometer mineral section, that's all from natural food, no supplements, although I take zinc and calcium supplements on top of natural ones.

 

B12 is an utterly different beast. No B12 on a vegan diet which has no excrements nor insects on the vegetables.Supplementing is must. I understand completely that basically that's an unnatural diet if ti needs supplementation.

 

The bottom line though is that in present world there is not much very natural left.

 

Thanks for the info on choline, I set a custom value of 300 mg and am above it (330 mg weekly average), but I'm going to read carefully your references. Main contributors to choline in my diet are broccoli, soymilk and almonds.

Attached Files

•  Cattura minerals.JPG   25.85KB   0 downloads

Edited by mccoy, 09 March 2018 - 03:46 PM.

[mccoy]

Oh Oh, the Wallace & Fulgoni, 2017 article on choline bears the following conflict of interest:

 

Conflicts of InterestT.C.W. has accepted academic consulting and writing fees from Balchem Corp. T.C.W. is currently an academic consultant for the Egg Nutrition Center. T.C.W. has obtained competitive research grants within the past year from the National Cattleman’s Beef Association. V.L.F as Vice President of Nutrition Impact, LLC conducts analyses of NHANES for numerous members of the food and beverage industry.

 

 

 

Also, choline has a AI which means that the statistical distribution of the mnimum requirement is not well known (no RDA, that is cautious estimate of the safe intake).

 

But the other articles which clearly underline the large variability in choline needs due to genetic variability must also be evaluated. Anyway, the problems with NFLD arose with <50 mg choline, which is hardly attainable by an ordinary diet, even if vegan.

 

The issue deserves to be pondered, my decision on the 300 mg d-1 was based on this article in teh Jack Norris site, which unfortunately is not based on specific studies:

 

https://veganhealth.org/choline/

Edited by mccoy, 09 March 2018 - 04:27 PM.

[sthira]

Thanks for the info on choline, I set a custom value of 300 mg and am above it (330 mg weekly average), but I'm going to read carefully your references. Main contributors to choline in my diet are broccoli, soymilk and almonds.

I'm consistently deficient in choline (if RDA is 550mg per day) -- during the past year or so I have only eaten roughly 425/mg day (lentils, chickpeas, broccoli, shiitake, Brussels sprouts are my primary but insufficient sources). It's hard to find a vegan choline foods, I've cut back on soy and tofu, so I've been supplementing broadly with Jarrow's B-complex, but that pill only has 50/mg of choline so... I'm chronically deficient by about 25% RDA. Maybe I should supplement choline to higher levels, I don't know...Im not thrilled about having to eat chicken eggs tbh, so I don't

[Matt]

Thank you for all the suggestions so far. I've saved all the links and am going to go over them later tonight.

The post is probably going to end up being much longer. I did some of the basics and outlined everything and I'll add new headings and subheadings soon.

 

With regards to "different needs"

 

I've not thought as much about Choline, but I've had issues even with magnesium and I got plenty from my diet (quite a bit more than the RDI) and still had issues, so I've had to supplement it.

 

My zinc is a little low some days, but I never thought it would lead to obvious symptoms of deficiency. It was pretty crazy... I figured it out eventually, and also remembered Michael Rae talking about some issues he had with zinc as well. 

I just remembered now that there is a taste test you can do? Is that still considered a good indication of deficiency?

 

Sthria: I've added soy back into my diet more recently. And I have to say it's made a difference... I feel like I have more energy and just feel better overall. 

Not sure if it's down to the choline content, I figured it was more about the increase in protein in my diet.

Edited by Matt, 09 March 2018 - 10:25 PM.

[aza]

Conflicts of interest don't always mean that there is some kind of wrongdoing.

To me it seems that the study simply groups people based on a dietary pattern and obtains their average choline intakes.

The caveat then being how accurate their collection methods are, although in regards to choline intake egg eaters > meat eaters > vegans is fairly common sense to begin with,

 

Also, off the iron fact sheet https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

"The RDAs for vegetarians are 1.8 times higher than for people who eat meat. This is because heme iron from meat is more bioavailable than nonheme iron from plant-based foods, and meat, poultry, and seafood increase the absorption of nonheme iron"

So while you appear fine mccoy (not sure how you racketed up that much), most vegans likely do not get enough, particularly young women.

 

"In all, 40% (tri-index model (TIM) 20%) of the YW and 12% (TIM 12%) of the OW were considered iron-deficient based on either serum ferritin levels of < 12 ng/ml or a TIM. Only 3 women (around 5%) had blood parameters which are defined as iron deficiency anemia." " Although the mean iron intake was above the recommended level, 40% (TIM 20%) of the YW were considered iron-deficient. It is suggested that especially YM on a vegan diet should have their iron status monitored and should consider taking iron supplements in case of a marginal status." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14988640

 

 

[sthira]

IMO the best kind of veganism is bivalveganism, because at the very least it deals with iron, zinc and b12 deficiencies.

You've highlighted another issue for me, and I agree eating bivalves like oysters would solve nutritional challenges. But veganism for me began primarily out of environmental and ethical concerns. Attempts of narrow dietary perfection came later, honestly. When I see how the commercial oyster industry ravages on -- basically dragging the sea floor and killing so much life, all that so called wasted "bi-catch" -- it breaks my heart and I just don't want to contribute to the industry. Same goes for eating fish and crustaceans, actually, how anyone can eat a lobster, for example, just blows my mind. I'll just take zinc supplements, eat more pumpkin seeds, whatever, and I'm not really having zinc deficiencies anyway (assuming I'm accurately recording my dailies and cronometer is accurate -- both are ball-park guesstimations, imho...)

Also, off the iron fact sheet https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/
"The RDAs for vegetarians are 1.8 times higher than for people who eat meat. This is because heme iron from meat is more bioavailable than nonheme iron from plant-based foods, and meat, poultry, and seafood increase the absorption of nonheme iron"
So while you appear fine mccoy (not sure how you racketed up that much), most vegans likely do not get enough, particularly young women.

This is another good point you're making -- you're hitting some of my issues as a longterm (>5yr vegan). I never had iron blood deficiency problems until last year when I donated blood three times. My Hemoglobin dove from 14.9 to 12.3, and now I'm not allowed to donate again until I'm less borderline anemic. I don't want iron supplements; also we read that keeping blood iron low is potentially healthy (?). So we orthorexics walk a tightrope, and I just sorta hope lowish iron is ok. My doctor isn't too concerned about my low iron -- it'll come back up without supplements, she says. I don't think she knows.

Sthria: I've added soy back into my diet more recently. And I have to say it's made a difference... I feel like I have more energy and just feel better overall.

My rationale for nixing soy derives from my interpretations of Longo's indication to keep protein to lower levels. If you document carefully, it's a surprise to observe that keeping protein low is a challenge even for committed vegans. I did raw fruitarian for a few years (60/30/10) and really felt great; but then I just got bored with so much fruit, and started to worry about longer term deficiencies. I'd be fruitarian mostly if I could. During the past six months I've managed to cut protein down to 12% from 16%, and I'm making up the difference by replacing protein with more fat (mainly olive oil and nuts...)

I wish we had more ways to know what's healthiest both for the natural world and for our own individual well-being. I feel like we're all just sorta stuck in limbo while science churns.

[aza]

oh and sthira, another thing off the zinc fact sheet. "Vegetarians sometimes require as much as 50% more of the RDA for zinc than non-vegetarians. In addition, they might benefit from using certain food preparation techniques that reduce the binding of zinc by phytates and increase its bioavailability. Techniques to increase zinc bioavailability include soaking beans, grains, and seeds in water for several hours before cooking them and allowing them to sit after soaking until sprouts form"

https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

[sthira]

Right. And I eat a shit ton of legumes, so they're presumably binding up zinc and escorting it out, too.

When I do cheat and eat some oysters (horrors) I definitely feel it through increased libido (which I don't necessarily want anyway). With lowish libido I'm enjoying living life as a secular, atheistic urban monk. Who wants more coupling drama anyway... Love. Pfft. And then again zinc supplements also I can feel through increased libido -- but not in the same way as I feel oysters. There's more to it, of course, than simplistic "zinc" that's affecting all sorts of metabolic pathways no one understands.

I just don't have much confidence that tinkering with nutrition down to these levels will matter much in terms of increased and healthier lifespan (the goals). But I'm doing it anyway -- obsessing with dietary perfection -- because honestly wtf else can we do? Yeah, and exercise and control "stress" --yippee.

We need a medical tricorder a la Star Trek.

[mccoy]

Conflicts of interest don't always mean that there is some kind of wrongdoing.

To me it seems that the study simply groups people based on a dietary pattern and obtains their average choline intakes.

The caveat then being how accurate their collection methods are, although in regards to choline intake egg eaters > meat eaters > vegans is fairly common sense to begin with,

 

Also, off the iron fact sheet https://ods.od.nih.g...thProfessional/

"The RDAs for vegetarians are 1.8 times higher than for people who eat meat. This is because heme iron from meat is more bioavailable than nonheme iron from plant-based foods, and meat, poultry, and seafood increase the absorption of nonheme iron"

So while you appear fine mccoy (not sure how you racketed up that much), most vegans likely do not get enough, particularly young women.

 

"In all, 40% (tri-index model (TIM) 20%) of the YW and 12% (TIM 12%) of the OW were considered iron-deficient based on either serum ferritin levels of < 12 ng/ml or a TIM. Only 3 women (around 5%) had blood parameters which are defined as iron deficiency anemia." " Although the mean iron intake was above the recommended level, 40% (TIM 20%) of the YW were considered iron-deficient. It is suggested that especially YM on a vegan diet should have their iron status monitored and should consider taking iron supplements in case of a marginal status." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14988640

 

Re. choline: I agree that conflicts of interests do not necessarily point out a dishonest study, but there si always the suspicion of some more or less legitimate data manipulation. Within limits, you may either manipulate data or draw biased conclusions from them. for example, the fact that 4 egg yolks per day do not elevate the TMAO levels sounds strange and should be further elucidated. Maybe for short periods.

 

Re. Iron

I was the first one to be surprised that iron level can be so high on a vegan diet. I set my custom iron RDA in cronometer based on the very guidelines you linked, in fact it's 1.8*8  = 14.4 d-1

 

My main sources according to cronometer are soymilk 23%, cacao powder 22%, oat flakes 15%, almonds 13%, spinach 13%, plus all other vegetables, nuts, grains.

 

Of course pre-menopausal women have a large iron requirement, and vegan pre-menopausal may have a huge one, if we adopt the rule of thumb: Fe(veg)= Fe*1.8 which would yield a whopping 32 mg -d. At this level, supplementation is often a necessity.

 

Also, do not let's forget that high heme-iron and ferritin levels are positively correlated to an elevated oxydizing environment and possible damage to pancreas functionality.

In this context, vegans and vegetarians have an advantage over omnivorous, since no heme iron means low ferritin levels and no associated risks.