28 replies to this topic

[StandingUp]

So, all my research on P5P indicates that it is supposedly without the risks of regular B6. However, I have just experienced the unfortunate effects of B6 toxictiy after just a few days on P5P. I have so far found 4 or 5 others who have had similar experiences.

I took 50mg of P5P in sublingual form on day 1 and I experienced notable anxiety and irritation for about 4 hours afterwards. On day 2 I broke up the dose into two 25mg doses and noticed some mild anxiety after each dose. Day 3 I did the same and noticed a mild tingling in my left foot. Day 4 I dosed the same and noticed profound burning and tingling in both foot and my left hand. I stopped immediately.

It's been about a week and the symptoms have intensified.

Like I said, I've found only a few others who have experienced this from P5P but many of them are still suffering neuropathy months later.

If I even eat a food that contains a small amount of B6 the neuropathy intensifies.

Prior to this incident, I had occasionally taken a B50 vitamin (like twice per month) without any incident. I recall I took P5P about 2 years ago with no problems at all.

The only thing I can think of is that I used the sublingual form this time. So far, the people I've found who experienced this have used either the sublingual or enteric coated form...perhaps missing the first pass through the liver has something to do with this.

I'm not sure at all what to do at this point. I know that magnesium is a cofactor in the metabolism of B6 and I take about 400mg of it daily.

From the others I've found who have experienced this, none have recovered. One reports minimal symptoms if they consume no B6 at all (including food) but even slight intake resumes all symptoms despite their blood levels being normal now.

What the heck do I do now?

[LazarusMan]

I would cease taking magnesium since it can worsen anxiety if you have too much.

[Kevnzworld]

I have been taking 100mg of p5p divided in 2 50mg doses daily for years without any noticeable Ill affect. I also take a few hundred mg of supplemental magnesium, in either the citrate or asperatate form. I take a multi that has a small amount of B6 as well.

[ta5]

I feel your pain.

I had severe burning peripheral neuropathy from pyridoxamine. Pyridoxamine itself shouldn't be a problem like pyridoxine may, but it could also have been impurities. I got it really cheap. In fact, AOR (not where I got mine) stopped selling it for awhile because they found impurities. There's even speculation that pyridoxine doesn't cause PN, that it's always from impurities that are commonly included with it. So, I stopped taking it. The PN went away after a few weeks. Shortly after that, I switched to P5P (200mg B6 from 300mg P5P per day, in 4 divided doses).

After about 6 years taking P5P without any problem, the PN has returned. This time, the sensation is maybe different, less burning and more tingling, or it's just less severe. It's not horrible, but it's there, and I certainly don't want it to get worse. I have stopped taking P5P. But there are other things that can cause PN, heavy metal toxicity, for example. I was recently experimenting with high-dose Bacopa which is known for soaking up heavy metals. So, I stopped both P5P and Bacopa until I can figure it out. I suspect the Bacopa more than the P5P. It's maybe a little bit better after 3 weeks now, but not much.

So, all in all, it sucks.

If the cause was P5P, and you stopped taking it, I'm very surprised that you say "the symptoms have intensified". That makes me suspect you're still taking whatever's causing it.

[1kgcoffee]

I would cease taking magnesium since it can worsen anxiety if you have too much.

How so? I always thought the opposite.

[LazarusMan]

I would cease taking magnesium since it can worsen anxiety if you have too much.

How so? I always thought the opposite.

Like with a lot of things, too much or to little can both have the same effect. I had read that proton pump inhibitors decreased the amount of magnesium one absorbs so I began to supplement with magnesium which I felt made my anxiety worse so I stopped. Now of course I can't dig up the article on it but I specifically remembered it stating that magnesium is not recommended for certain types of anxiety disorders. Sorry I'll try to find it tomorrow.

[MrHappy]

An imbalance of B6 can lead to a deficiency of B1,2,3.
This is because B6 is antagonistic to B1,2,3.

Apart from the DNA transcription issues potentially caused by this, a B1 deficiency can lead to neuropathy in some people.

Try supplementing B1 / benfotiamine and zinc and see how you respond after 1-2 weeks.

[MrHappy]

Magnesium is not a standard cause of anxiety, but in rare circumstances, *consistently* overdosing on it could potentially lead to complications, including anxiety.

[pamojja]

An imbalance of B6 can lead to a deficiency of B1,2,3.
This is because B6 is antagonistic to B1,2,3.

Apart from the DNA transcription issues potentially caused by this, a B1 deficiency can lead to neuropathy in some people.

Try supplementing B1 / benfotiamine and zinc and see how you respond after 1-2 weeks.

MrHappy, where you get your informations for antagonistic/synergistic actions of B vitamins?

Often I read that all B vitamins have to be well balanced, but actually find very little substantial information except some individual experiences (which generalized aren't that reliable) about how they're best balanced?

I'm asking because I take high dose Niacin (8 grams every second day) for improving Lp(a) and HDL. But other than a mild flush alone I don't 'feel' anything particular about the various other individual Bs by changing their doses up or down.

An especially good example is Thiamine, since only up to 5 mg is absorbed with a single serving (with no difference if the supplement contained 10 or 100 mgs). Therefore I do take 150 mgs of Benfotiamine spiced with some Sulbutiamine. But could that be enough in the context of 4 g/day niacin in the longer run? (while not having the money for regular lab testing)

Would appreciate any pointers.

[MrHappy]

Book reading from some years ago. I'll see if I can find the books / authors.

Balance is a highly personal thing, as diet will change requirements for supplementation. Usually, excess intake ends up in your urine, but that only happens to a certain extent.

Mostly, you'll hover roughly around normal with a normal multi-B with excess being excreted.

What is the aim of the 8g niacin dose?

[pamojja]

4 g/d of Niacin to bring Lp(a) down and HDL up in the context of a severe PAD diagnosed 3 years ago.

Edited by pamojja, 31 July 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[Blink]

An imbalance of B6 can lead to a deficiency of B1,2,3.
This is because B6 is antagonistic to B1,2,3.

Do you know if choline also leads to deficiency in other b vitamins? I take 300mg / day but don't supplement with any other b-vitamins.

[pamojja]

Book reading from some years ago. I'll see if I can find the books / authors.

Balance is a highly personal thing, as diet will change requirements for supplementation.

Would be great if you found the sources.

Didn't find any studies which would point out meaningful relations between the Bs (though that could also mean I don't know enough how to search for those). Certainly they're many, if one considers basic metabolism of B vitamins:

 B_metabolism.gif   490.64KB   59 downloads

Some interesting observations in possible interactions of the B vitamins I found at Acu-Cell website, though really not much more than one practitioner's experiences.

Since I'm vegetarian and have below normal thyroid, a weakened liver, really low magnesium, potassium and sodium, lowish iron and manganese, highish blood glucose (despite being moderately low carb=70 g/d) - according to these observations at Acu-Cell I would seem to benefit for my higher B1, Choline, B6, B12 and Vitamin C intake. Though actually I do feel some tension in my chaw above a certain level of Choline supplementation, which I push for helping my diseased liver.

[MrHappy]

4 g/d of Niacin to bring Lp(a) down and HDL up in the context of a severe PAD diagnosed 3 years ago.

You have seen measurable differences between eg. 500mg and 4g?

[MrHappy]

Book reading from some years ago. I'll see if I can find the books / authors.

Balance is a highly personal thing, as diet will change requirements for supplementation.

Would be great if you found the sources.

Didn't find any studies which would point out meaningful relations between the Bs (though that could also mean I don't know enough how to search for those). Certainly they're many, if one considers basic metabolism of B vitamins:

 B_metabolism.gif   490.64KB   59 downloads

Some interesting observations in possible interactions of the B vitamins I found at Acu-Cell website, though really not much more than one practitioner's experiences.

Since I'm vegetarian and have below normal thyroid, a weakened liver, really low magnesium, potassium and sodium, lowish iron and manganese, highish blood glucose (despite being moderately low carb=70 g/d) - according to these observations at Acu-Cell I would seem to benefit for my higher B1, Choline, B6, B12 and Vitamin C intake. Though actually I do feel some tension in my chaw above a certain level of Choline supplementation, which I push for helping my diseased liver.

I'm vegetarian and I can't say a weakened liver is typical.

If you are actively trying to fix a liver issue, I'd consider b6, taurine and silymarin/milk thistle as a potential strategy.

Have you also had tests for common liver problems, eg. Hep C, etc?

[pamojja]

If you are actively trying to fix a liver issue, I'd consider b6, taurine and silymarin/milk thistle as a potential strategy.

Have you also had tests for common liver problems, eg. Hep C, etc?

Take all of those and much more. It seems to help, if I take my highly fluctuating lipid numbers as measure and belief Masterjohn's point of view.

Because of this I realized only recently that my liver could be the reason that despite greatly improved diet, high dose supplementation and indeed successfully fighting my PAD - by having increased pain-free slow walking distance from 3-400 meters to 1-2 hours of steady walking - my blood lipids are still very far from ideal.

Though the last occurrence of malaria (in total 7 times within 4 years) goes back 12 years already, I remembered how at that time my liver hurt even with a little coffee or curd, and a ultra-sonic showed an enlarged liver. Liver pain soon ceased with a course of LIV.52 (actually in Bodhgaya, India at that time), haven't even though about my liver since then..

I'm vegetarian and I can't say a weakened liver is typical.

Additional to 7 malarias (and their liver taxing treatment) I traveled for 10 years through poor countries without any supplementation on pretty not much more than what one would get as vegetarian in available restaurants, in most places in Africa, for example, just rice and beans. It meant a feast if I found any veggies in meaningful amounts, since in most poor places only the rich go out for meals and then for meat.

[MrHappy]

If you are actively trying to fix a liver issue, I'd consider b6, taurine and silymarin/milk thistle as a potential strategy.

Have you also had tests for common liver problems, eg. Hep C, etc?

Take all of those and much more. It seems to help, if I take my highly fluctuating lipid numbers as measure and belief Masterjohn's point of view.

Because of this I realized only recently that my liver could be the reason that despite greatly improved diet, high dose supplementation and indeed successfully fighting my PAD - by having increased pain-free slow walking distance from 3-400 meters to 1-2 hours of steady walking - my blood lipids are still very far from ideal.

Though the last occurrence of malaria (in total 7 times within 4 years) goes back 12 years already, I remembered how at that time my liver hurt even with a little coffee or curd, and a ultra-sonic showed an enlarged liver. Liver pain soon ceased with a course of LIV.52 (actually in Bodhgaya, India at that time), haven't even though about my liver since then..

I'm vegetarian and I can't say a weakened liver is typical.

Additional to 7 malarias (and their liver taxing treatment) I traveled for 10 years through poor countries without any supplementation on pretty not much more than what one would get as vegetarian in available restaurants, in most places in Africa, for example, just rice and beans. It meant a feast if I found any veggies in meaningful amounts, since in most poor places only the rich go out for meals and then for meat.

Considering your travel and environment, what about liver flukes?

Have you tried a liver flush? Google 'hulda clarke liver flush' - should be a recipe on curezone and a stomach churning gallery. Combines a week of natural anti-parasitics followed by an evening of fat (olive oil + grapefruit juice) and magnesium sulfate. Followed by a long morning in the bathroom.

[pamojja]

Considering your travel and environment, what about liver flukes?

Have you tried a liver flush? Google 'hulda clarke liver flush' - should be a recipe on curezone and a stomach churning gallery. Combines a week of natural anti-parasitics followed by an evening of fat (olive oil + grapefruit juice) and magnesium sulfate. Followed by a long morning in the bathroom.

No thanks, I have already enough reasons for a weak liver, don't need additional flukes . Some years ago I spend a week in a hospital (they wanted me to stay a 2nd) after which and numerous tests they still couldn't pinpoint the cause of my coca-cola black urine, for which I suggested from the beginning bilharzia. In the end my GP just gave me the 3 de-worming pills I was begging for and it was done.

http://curezone.com/...ldas_recipe.asp

Preparation

• You can't clean a liver with living parasites in it. You won't get many stones, and you will feel quite sick. Zap daily the week before and complete the parasite killing program before attempting a liver cleanse. If you are on the maintenance parasite program, you are always ready to do the cleanse.
• Completing the kidney cleanse before cleansing the liver is also highly recommended. You want your kidneys, bladder and urinary tract in top working condition so they can efficiently remove any undesirable substances incidentally absorbed from the intestine as the bile is being excreted.

Ingredients Epsom salts 4 tablespoons 3 cups of water

3 cups water ( =750 ml = 7.5 dl ) (P.S .!! 1 cup = 250 ml = 2.5 dl = 0.25 l )

Olive oil 1/2 (half) cup (light olive oil is easier to get down), and for best results, ozonate it for 20 minutes. Add 2 drops HCl. Fresh pink grapefruit 1 large or 2 small, enough to squeeze 2/3 cup juice. Hot wash twice first and dry each time. Ornithine 4 to 8, to be sure you can sleep. Don't skip this or you may have the worst night of your life! Large plastic straw To help drink potion.
Pint jar with lid Black Walnut Tincture, any strength 10 to 20 drops, to kill parasites coming from the liver.

You did all this stuff - from zapping, to parasite killing and then the kidney before the liver cleanse?


Honestly, since I don't feel any symptoms - other than the probability of a thesis about gone wild lipid numbers with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease by improved diet and choline intake, thereby already healing the liver - I won't start such a thorough regimen, zapping presumed parasites and whatnot.

Even if I had liver pains: LIV.52 would work already so great no need for such drastic procedures.

Edited by pamojja, 01 August 2012 - 12:29 AM.

[MrHappy]

Considering your travel and environment, what about liver flukes?

Have you tried a liver flush? Google 'hulda clarke liver flush' - should be a recipe on curezone and a stomach churning gallery. Combines a week of natural anti-parasitics followed by an evening of fat (olive oil + grapefruit juice) and magnesium sulfate. Followed by a long morning in the bathroom.

No thanks, I have already enough reasons for a weak liver, don't need additional flukes . Some years ago I spend a week in a hospital (they wanted me to stay a 2nd) after which and numerous tests they still couldn't pinpoint the cause of my coca-cola black urine, for which I suggested from the beginning bilharzia. In the end my GP just gave me the 3 de-worming pills I was begging for and it was done.

http://curezone.com/...ldas_recipe.asp

Preparation

• You can't clean a liver with living parasites in it. You won't get many stones, and you will feel quite sick. Zap daily the week before and complete the parasite killing program before attempting a liver cleanse. If you are on the maintenance parasite program, you are always ready to do the cleanse.
• Completing the kidney cleanse before cleansing the liver is also highly recommended. You want your kidneys, bladder and urinary tract in top working condition so they can efficiently remove any undesirable substances incidentally absorbed from the intestine as the bile is being excreted.

Ingredients Epsom salts 4 tablespoons 3 cups of water

3 cups water ( =750 ml = 7.5 dl ) (P.S .!! 1 cup = 250 ml = 2.5 dl = 0.25 l )

Olive oil 1/2 (half) cup (light olive oil is easier to get down), and for best results, ozonate it for 20 minutes. Add 2 drops HCl. Fresh pink grapefruit 1 large or 2 small, enough to squeeze 2/3 cup juice. Hot wash twice first and dry each time. Ornithine 4 to 8, to be sure you can sleep. Don't skip this or you may have the worst night of your life! Large plastic straw To help drink potion.
Pint jar with lid Black Walnut Tincture, any strength 10 to 20 drops, to kill parasites coming from the liver.

You did all this stuff - from zapping, to parasite killing and then the kidney before the liver cleanse?


Honestly, since I don't feel any symptoms - other than the probability of a thesis about gone wild lipid numbers with non-alcoholic fatty liver disease by improved diet and choline intake, thereby already healing the liver - I won't start such a thorough regimen, zapping presumed parasites and whatnot.

Even if I had liver pains: LIV.52 would work already so great no need for such drastic procedures.

Not the zapping, but the antiparasitic is a must. I shed 2 flukes in one session.

[pamojja]

Since I'm vegetarian and ..

I'm vegetarian and I can't say a weakened liver is typical.

Considering your travel and environment, what about liver flukes?

Have you tried a liver flush? Google 'hulda clarke liver flush' - should be a recipe on curezone and ...

You did all this stuff - from zapping, to parasite killing and then the kidney before the liver cleanse?

Not the zapping, but the antiparasitic is a must. I shed 2 flukes in one session.

Now you made me curious.

You did all this extensive organ cleaning without any symptoms of a weak liver? - Then what was the reason for doing it?
And since there weren't any symptoms of a weakened liver in the beginning (if your first statement about your healthy liver was accurate) - then what could have been the health benefit? - In which way you felt improved with 2 flukes less?

[MrHappy]

Since I'm vegetarian and ..

I'm vegetarian and I can't say a weakened liver is typical.

Considering your travel and environment, what about liver flukes?

Have you tried a liver flush? Google 'hulda clarke liver flush' - should be a recipe on curezone and ...

You did all this stuff - from zapping, to parasite killing and then the kidney before the liver cleanse?

Not the zapping, but the antiparasitic is a must. I shed 2 flukes in one session.

Now you made me curious.

You did all this extensive organ cleaning without any symptoms of a weak liver? - Then what was the reason for doing it?
And since there weren't any symptoms of a weakened liver in the beginning (if your first statement about your healthy liver was accurate) - then what could have been the health benefit? - In which way you felt improved with 2 flukes less?

At the time, I had developed an allergy to wheat gluten. Allergies typically indicate a liver issue. At the time I was eating healthily, so this was surprising.

Suffice to say, I'm eating wheat again without issues, but if I do silly things, like abusing my liver with excessive alcohol consumption on a regular basis, it comes back - I can have a big night out, just not 3 times a week for months on end.

[StandingUp]

I wanted to post a resolution to this as I finally recovered.

I took MASSIVE amounts of methylcobalamin and the neuropathy resolved literally in hours...then returned slowly over the next day (perhaps when the B12 was fully utilized). I repeated this process a few times and the neuropathy is completely gone.

[ta5]

I wanted to post a resolution to this as I finally recovered.

I took MASSIVE amounts of methylcobalamin and the neuropathy resolved literally in hours...then returned slowly over the next day (perhaps when the B12 was fully utilized). I repeated this process a few times and the neuropathy is completely gone.

That's great. How much B12 are we talking about? Did the massive doses have any other effects that you noticed? How much B12 will you continue to take?

[StandingUp]

I wanted to post a resolution to this as I finally recovered.

I took MASSIVE amounts of methylcobalamin and the neuropathy resolved literally in hours...then returned slowly over the next day (perhaps when the B12 was fully utilized). I repeated this process a few times and the neuropathy is completely gone.

That's great. How much B12 are we talking about? Did the massive doses have any other effects that you noticed? How much B12 will you continue to take?

I don't plan to continue the large doses, but will continue on a more normal dose. As far as I can guess there are a number of reactions in the body that require both B12 and p5p, perhaps the dose of one depleted the other. I don't know.

I was taking a daily 1mg of sublingual methylcobalamin and on a whim I put like 10 of them in my mouth one day lol. I noticed immediate improvement but it did not stay. However it was encouraging. I ended up getting 2 injections of methylcobalamin and that seemed to take care of it.

Interestingly, when I previously had my B12 tested before ever supplementing it was around 550 which is not great but also not terrible. After some supplementation I was above lab range >1999 and my doc told me I could probably stop lol. But that was a couple years ago so it's tough to say what was happening at them moment this all happened. I believe the most important part was taking the active methyl form of B12 and not the garbage cyano stuff that's in everything.

It's actually been a month or so since this happened so I feel secure in saying this has been completely resolved.

[ta5]

Thanks, I appreciate hearing your experience.

How big of a dose were your injections? How much time between them?

[StandingUp]

Thanks, I appreciate hearing your experience.

How big of a dose were your injections? How much time between them?

I believe 3,000mcg per injection, twice in one week. Based on my reaction to the sublingual methyl b12 I believe I could have achieved the same result but it may have taken a lot longer. I can definitely say that even those did something. I used the source naturals methylcobalamin 1mcg sublingual tabs.

I also should mention that my B12 is prescription so of course consult with a doc before megadosing or injecting anything . I have a cool integrative doc that prescribed it awhile ago, you can get methyb12 inejctible from College Pharmacy if you need a source. Of course a prescription is needed. I also know that some pharmacists or nutritionists will administer B12 shots but they are often not the methyl form. The hydro form is supposedly good too but I have limited experience with it.

Edited by StandingUp, 26 February 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[StevesPetRat]

This thread is kinda old but I just wanted to mention that some people may need riboflavin supplementation when using a lot of the other B's. I too had neuropathic symptoms after p5p in isolation.

[StandingUp]

This thread is kinda old but I just wanted to mention that some people may need riboflavin supplementation when using a lot of the other B's. I too had neuropathic symptoms after p5p in isolation.

 

Interesting. So you had neuropathy from P5P that resolved with riboflavin?

 

What sort of dosages of both were you taking?

[StevesPetRat]

I started to have neuropathic symptoms at 50 mg/day. I used 100 mg riboflavin w/ 5 mg sublingual methylb12 for a week and it improved.