52 replies to this topic

[RJ100]

Acute dopamine depletion with branched chain amino acids decreases auditory top-down event-related potentials in healthy subjects

Cerebral dopamine homeostasis has been implicated in a wide range of cognitive processes and is of great pathophysiological importance in schizophrenia. A novel approach to study cognitive effects of dopamine is to deplete its cerebral levels with branched chain amino acids (BCAAs) that acutely lower dopamine precursor amino acid availability. Here, we studied the effects of acute dopamine depletion on early and late attentive cortical processing. Auditory event-related potential (ERP) components N2 and P3 were investigated using high-density electroencephalography in 22 healthy male subjects after receiving BCAAs or placebo in a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover design. Total free serum prolactin was also determined as a surrogate marker of cerebral dopamine depletion. Acute dopamine depletion increased free plasma prolactin and significantly reduced prefrontal ERP components N2 and P3. Subcomponent analysis of N2 revealed a significant attenuation of early attentive N2b over prefrontal scalp sites. As a proof of concept, these results strongly suggest that BCAAs are acting on basic information processing. Dopaminergic neurotransmission seems to be involved in auditory top-down processing as indexed by prefrontal N2 and P3 reductions during dopamine depletion. In healthy subjects, intact early cortical top-down processing can be acutely dysregulated by ingestion of BCAAs. We discuss the potential impact of these findings on schizophrenia research.

As someone who has been taking BCAAs for a long time I was very surprised to read this.

Can someone smarter than I am please explain exactly what taking BCAAs might mean for me long term. (I take them as part of a resistance training & intermittent fasting protocol)

Thanks.

[zorba990]

Leucine uses the same BBB transport mechanism as tyrosine, so if you take bcaas too often you would be blocking the pathway to dopamine. So timing is important with AA suplementation. You can check Colgan' s Optimum Sports Nutrition for more info.

[dear mrclock]

so long term use of BCAAs can cause parkinson ?

[zorba990]

so long term use of BCAAs can cause parkinson ?

I don't think the effect would be that severe. Even at high doses its not affecting the s.n. directly, its just blocking the fuel from getting there. I have seen some reports of depression on bcaas and high dose leucine on bodybuilding forums. bcaa/leucine should be taken hours away from any dopamine stimulating therapies IMO. This probably includes your morning dose of full spectrum light if you want to be alert for the day.

[dear mrclock]

ive just seen so much positive from bcaas and now this.

Edited by dear mrclock, 15 January 2013 - 05:42 AM.

[chung_pao]

Do you any reduction in your level of motivation and energy when you take them?
If there's no subjective side-effects, it's not reducing your level of dopamine.

Dopamine is very noticeable, and if BCAAs were giving you parkinsonian symptoms, you'd be able to tell.
For one, you'd feel very old, or at least a bit weaker or demotivated.

The study is just telling us that less dopamine will be able to be synthesized if you'd take in BCAAs in close proximity to other amino acids that occupies the same enzyme.
Any idea how much BCAAs were dosed in the study?

Edited by chung_pao, 15 January 2013 - 10:54 PM.

[smithx]

How would this relate to sleeping? Any data?

[dear mrclock]

there are many mentions that amino acids compete in the human body and some are not absorbed but others are more so depending on the source and quantity comparison. can someone tell me, what is the point of consuming large portions of protein if amino acids compete against each other ? seems pointless.

[zorba990]

there are many mentions that amino acids compete in the human body and some are not absorbed but others are more so depending on the source and quantity comparison. can someone tell me, what is the point of consuming large portions of protein if amino acids compete against each other ? seems pointless.

i. Protein is not just broken down into single amino acids. Peptides are also absorbed, and used for things other than just precursors to neurotransmitters.
Read chapter 13 Optimum Sports Nutrition. And bcaas should be fine as long as they are taken away from times and substances that are intended to be neurotransmitter dominant (bcaas also compete with tryptophan so they could cause lower serotonin as well) So no bcaa pre workout or in the early am or close to bedtime would likely be best.

Amino acids that use large neutral bbb transport:
tryptophan - dmt serotonin melatonin precursor
phenylalanine - pea precursor
tyrosine - dopamine precursor
methionine - SAMe precursor
histidine - histamine precursor
bcaas (leucine, isoleucine, valine)

It seems likely the other aminos listed above are precusors to brain chemistry but I don't know which ones offhand.

Edited by zorba990, 16 January 2013 - 04:11 AM.

[dear mrclock]

"Protein is not just broken down into single amino acids. Peptides are also absorbed, and used for things other than just precursors to neurotransmitters" - can you break down this further with explaination and also source ?

[Galaxyshock]

Well the antagonism could upregulate the dopamine receptors or enzymes responsible for dopamine production so there's always this side. But I doubt the effects are that noticeable as long as there's sufficient intake of protein.

[RJ100]

Do you any reduction in your level of motivation and energy when you take them?
If there's no subjective side-effects, it's not reducing your level of dopamine.

Dopamine is very noticeable, and if BCAAs were giving you parkinsonian symptoms, you'd be able to tell.
For one, you'd feel very old, or at least a bit weaker or demotivated.

I have very low motivation, but I was like this before I started taking BCAAs. I've thought for some time now that my issue might be related to dopamine, and it's looking like taking BCAAs is unhelpful, to say the least.

[Strelok]

Taking some Phenylalanine or Tyrosine on an empty stomach at a separate time of day than the BCAAs would probably do the trick. Or, just eat good sources of protein throughout the day and don't continually consume BCAAs.

[RJ100]

Taking some Phenylalanine or Tyrosine on an empty stomach at a separate time of day than the BCAAs would probably do the trick. Or, just eat good sources of protein throughout the day and don't continually consume BCAAs.

Well, I don't think it's affecting me, but I don't know - that's what I'm asking.

Do you believe that dopamine production/reward system could be harmed by long term BCAA consumption?

[zorba990]

"Protein is not just broken down into single amino acids. Peptides are also absorbed, and used for things other than just precursors to neurotransmitters" - can you break down this further with explaination and also source ?

http://books.google....ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg

explains it fairly well.

Edited by zorba990, 16 January 2013 - 07:48 PM.

[zorba990]

Taking some Phenylalanine or Tyrosine on an empty stomach at a separate time of day than the BCAAs would probably do the trick. Or, just eat good sources of protein throughout the day and don't continually consume BCAAs.

Yes, this works. You can even bcaa or whey mid workout because by then the tyrosine will be past the BBB. Although I prefer BKCA e.g. http://www.iherb.com...0-Tablets/39287

ive just seen so much positive from bcaas and now this.

Just need to get the timing right.

http://www.lef.org/m..._Booster_01.htm

[dear mrclock]

"Protein is not just broken down into single amino acids. Peptides are also absorbed, and used for things other than just precursors to neurotransmitters" - can you break down this further with explaination and also source ?

http://books.google....ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg

explains it fairly well.

tnx a lot for this. had trouble finding good literature on how amino acids are seperately and absorbed by an organism but this is a really good book.

still cant figure out tho, how unlike us, mammals like cows are able to produce so much protein and fat content through their bodies and most importantly in milk by just consuming grass which has no fat and/or any important protein. zorba, i know its off topic but didnt wanna make a seperate thread about it, what is your guess on this ?

[trance]

"Protein is not just broken down into single amino acids. Peptides are also absorbed, and used for things other than just precursors to neurotransmitters" - can you break down this further with explaination and also source ?

http://books.google....ved=0CFMQ6AEwBg

explains it fairly well.

tnx a lot for this. had trouble finding good literature on how amino acids are seperately and absorbed by an organism but this is a really good book.

still cant figure out tho, how unlike us, mammals like cows are able to produce so much protein and fat content through their bodies and most importantly in milk by just consuming grass which has no fat and/or any important protein. zorba, i know its off topic but didnt wanna make a seperate thread about it, what is your guess on this ?

Here is a very detailed explanation on how ruminants process grass into protein, fat, muscle, etc:

http://www.utafounda...&L/chapter4.htm

[dear mrclock]

ah trance delivers. even tho, i try to avoid any trance music associaton :(

[trance]

ah trance delivers. even tho, i try to avoid any trance music associaton :(

Off topic ... Trance is just the name of my horse, not any music association, though I know what it is.

[RJ100]

I appreciate an open discussion here but can anyone answer the original question?

The study says that dopamine processing can be "acutely dysregulated by ingestion of BCAAs". Is this something to be concerned about long-term? Do the positive actions of BCAAs outweigh this negative?

[trance]

Here's the full paper if you haven't read the entire text:

http://pharmacogenet...iz Res 2009.pdf


From the paper:

The pattern of ERP deficits following BCAAs points to pathophysiological mechanisms that may be comparable to those in schizophrenia, at least on the cortical level. Thus,
BCAAs offer the opportunity to study mechanisms of cortical dopamine dysregulation and may aid further research on the exact mechanisms of cognitive deficits in schizophrenia.

Conclusion

The present investigation is the first to examine ERPs following BCAA administration in healthy subjects and indicates that BCAAs modulate prefrontal ERP components N2 and P3. A concurrent significant effect of BCAAs on plasma prolactin levels provides evidence that BCAAs act on dopamine homeostasis and suggests a role of dopamine in the pharmacology of neuronal top-down processing. It has to be noted, though, that our results might be confounded by influences from serotonergic and noradrenergic transmitter systems which stresses the need to further elaborate nutritional approaches to studying cognitive functions. Despite this major limitation, the present study emphasizes the utility of dopamine depletion paradigms in future research on attentional functions in general and dopaminergic imbalance in neuropsychiatric disorders like schizophrenia in particular.

.

[RJ100]

I did read it - I'm the one who posted it.

I understand what the study suggests BCAAs do in single/acute doses. If there's an answer to my question about chronic/long-term use in there then I guess I'm missing it.

[dear mrclock]

only way to find out RJ100 is to keep taking them long term and report back

[RJ100]

only way to find out RJ100 is to keep taking them long term and report back

Ha! Considering I may have dopamine issues that were present before I started BCAAs I'd hardly be a good test subject.

I'm leaning towards dropping them altogether. They're beneficial in some respects, so I hate to do it, but my main interest is getting my head right, so anything that causes dysfunction with dopamine synthesis should probably be eliminated.

[chung_pao]

No. It will not disrupt your ability to synthesize dopamine in the long term.
"Acutely" means that the ingestion of BCAAs occupies the enzyme required to make dopamine out of L-tyrosine.
As soon as your BCAAs are processed you'll be able to produce dopamine again at your normal rate.

But, if you feel this acute effect is too much to bear for your motivation, then use a full protein (providing tyrosine) instead of BCAAs.
Also, intermittent fasting is usually bad for dopamine levels (during the fasting window). This is due to the downregulation of catecholamine production when amino acids are scarce, and the fact that IF usually requires a large amount of caffeine, which by itself damages your catecholamine production.

Edited by chung_pao, 17 January 2013 - 09:06 PM.

[RJ100]

No. It will not disrupt your ability to synthesize dopamine in the long term.
"Acutely" means that the ingestion of BCAAs occupies the enzyme required to make dopamine out of L-tyrosine.
As soon as your BCAAs are processed you'll be able to produce dopamine again at your normal rate.

But, if you feel this acute effect is too much to bear for your motivation, then use a full protein (providing tyrosine) instead of BCAAs.
Also, intermittent fasting is usually bad for dopamine levels (during the fasting window). This is due to the downregulation of catecholamine production when amino acids are scarce, and the fact that IF usually requires a large amount of caffeine, which by itself damages your catecholamine production.

BCAAs and caffeine are how I deal with 16 hours of fasting..ugh.

IF has been great for my hypoglycemia, but it's looking more and more like it might not be great for my avolition/anhedonia.

I confess to knowing nothing about tyrosine other than it's an amino acid. I'll look into it.

Thank you for the response.

Edited by RJ100, 17 January 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[dear mrclock]

ive tried tyrosine for dopamine but it didnt work with doses as high as 5 grams. not sure why so many people mention its usage for dopamine. it seems to be converted to phenylalanine in your body and then dopamine. ive tried phenylalanine seperately but again i didnt really notice any of the affects associated with dopamine, but i did feel it helped tremendesly with mild anxiety and depression. for me dopamine is associated with oposite, more alertness, a bit of anxiety and pleasurable award seeking.

Edited by dear mrclock, 17 January 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[zorba990]

ive tried tyrosine for dopamine but it didnt work with doses as high as 5 grams. not sure why so many people mention its usage for dopamine. it seems to be converted to phenylalanine in your body and then dopamine. ive tried phenylalanine seperately but again i didnt really notice any of the affects associated with dopamine, but i did feel it helped tremendesly with mild anxiety and depression. for me dopamine is associated with oposite, more alertness, a bit of anxiety and pleasurable award seeking.

Did you take it on an empty stomach hours away from any other protein? Try first thing in the AM with 100mg allithiamine and 1-2g ALCAR. Then nothing else for at least a solid hour.

[dear mrclock]

^ zorba so what does that achieve ? can you tell me, i assume you have tried that combination, what did you achieve in effect ?