26 replies to this topic

[czGLoRy]

http://www.reddit.co...esults_warning/

I find this concerning, I have ordered some piracetam from them, should I toss it?

[Guacamolium]

There have so far been no reports of piracetam being unsafe from them. It's a fast seller, so some people should have stepped forward for now if it wasn't what it said it was or was impure.

[ModHigh]

But why give money to a business that does this to customers?

Plenty of other reliable suppliers of piracetam around..

[Layberinthius]

Not much point in living forever if your brain is having seizures, it certianly knocks it down the scale having to source anti-seizure meds for the rest of your existence.

And for most people they will go to buy their stuff wherever Google sends them, its not about doing research initially but about the search score in Google.

I think that this forum is financially biased, is this true?

Edited by Layberinthius, 22 September 2013 - 11:56 PM.

[chemicalambrosia]

Not much point in living forever if your brain is having seizures, it certianly knocks it down the scale having to source anti-seizure meds for the rest of your existence.

And for most people they will go to buy their stuff wherever Google sends them, its not about doing research initially but about the search score in Google.

I think that this forum is financially biased, is this true?

This forum is less financially biased than Reddit, since a mod or mods of reddit are apparently starting a nootropics company. Anyways, the mods here seem incredibly professional and obviously haven't censored this discussion at all.

One thing I would like to point out is that this incident(assuming its true) could probably happen easily at many of the nootropics companies we buy from. I'm assuming most of them don't have very rigorous testing systems or internal quality control(there are some exceptions, of course). A big contributor IMO as to why this probably happened with Cerebral Health is that they have so many different bulk substances on hand. Each additional one is another chance for screw-ups of any kind. Anyone that uses these types of companies should keep pushing for more third party testing and transparency into quality control. Mixing up one substance with another, for example, could have disastrous effects. Do all of the companies have proven processes in place to prevent this? Who knows...

[Layberinthius]

Not much point in living forever if your brain is having seizures, it certianly knocks it down the scale having to source anti-seizure meds for the rest of your existence.

And for most people they will go to buy their stuff wherever Google sends them, its not about doing research initially but about the search score in Google.

I think that this forum is financially biased, is this true?

This forum is less financially biased than Reddit, since a mod or mods of reddit are apparently starting a nootropics company. Anyways, the mods here seem incredibly professional and obviously haven't censored this discussion at all.

One thing I would like to point out is that this incident(assuming its true) could probably happen easily at many of the nootropics companies we buy from. I'm assuming most of them don't have very rigorous testing systems or internal quality control(there are some exceptions, of course). A big contributor IMO as to why this probably happened with Cerebral Health is that they have so many different bulk substances on hand. Each additional one is another chance for screw-ups of any kind. Anyone that uses these types of companies should keep pushing for more third party testing and transparency into quality control. Mixing up one substance with another, for example, could have disastrous effects. Do all of the companies have proven processes in place to prevent this? Who knows...

Ok thanks for that, I'll have to take your word on a few things but frankly the way big pharma and food companies are killing us off its better than nothing these days.

Makes me wonder wether we should have test kits made for specific chemicals so we as end users can test what we are getting, but I'm stumped as to where to start, dont know if its even possible.

I ALWAYS test something individually before going on it full time, I've recently gotten onto Noopept, and I bought the genuine article from Russia so that I know its the real deal as much as can be assured that it is. So I know that when I buy the powedered cheaper stuff that I know that its Noopept because it affects me the same way.

I also ALWAYS take an allergy test dose first, 1/8th of a regular dose, or 1/2 of a starter dose and take that for 2 days to make sure no bad symptoms appear, and so that the bad effects if something should go wrong arent life threatening or bad.

The guy in the article took a massive first dose, which we all know is rediculously stupid, but even so, I'm wondering if the white powders shouldnt be dyed a certian color, to color code our powders so when fuckups like this do occur it can be easily identified by the end user as not being what they wanted.

I think that would go a way to mitigating bad events like this, and dye is cheap.

Edited by Layberinthius, 23 September 2013 - 10:13 AM.

[chemicalambrosia]

The guy in the article took a massive first dose, which we all know is rediculously stupid, but even so, I'm wondering if the white powders shouldnt be dyed a certian color, to color code our powders so when fuckups like this do occur it can be easily identified by the end user as not being what they wanted.

I think that would go a way to mitigating bad events like this, and dye is cheap.

Almost all of the chemicals are being synthesized in China, and screw-ups can easily happen on that end too especially with language barriers and what not. We need more transparency and accountability, from both the original suppliers in China and the end retail sellers. More community funded third party testing would be nice.

[Ceretropic]

Reddit Nootropics is not financially biased. I am a moderator of that forum. And yes, I partnered with another Redditor and long time Longecity member a couple of months ago to start a nootropics supplier. That has no bearing on my duties as a moderator. I certainly did not orchestrate a seizure and 4 hospital visits to smear Cerebral Health's already shaky reputation. Not to mention, I had a completely different moderator order the sample from CH and send it into the lab. I have not even seen, let alone touched the samples in question here.

The fact that anyone is still considering buying from Cerebral Health is just ridiculous. This person almost died! This is not some simple mixup that Synapse can just write off by playing dumb. This is a dangerous and psychoactive substance being sold as a nootropic. This is the kind of thing that can destroy our whole community if the FDA starts cracking down. The nonchalant attitude that some people are taking over this astounds me! Is this the kind of thing we want to be worried about when ordering our nootropics? Do we want to be constantly wondering if what is labeled on the bag or jar we received is actually the substance we purchased, much less the purity stated? It's something that should NEVER happen! We as a community have to ensure that any vendor that lets it gets that message. If you buy from Cerebral Health, you are condoning their incompetence, and letting all the other vendors know that kind of behavior is not only allowed, but is profitable.

Saying that I am financially biased is just silly. I don't sell pyritinol, or pretty much any of the substances Cerebral Health does. Their lack of customer service, and complete ignorance to the severity of the issues they have been facing, already makes them not a competitor to anyone. The only reason I agreed to partner with someone to start a vendor is because I want to help advance our community. It's the same reason I became a moderator, and the same reason I started this testing program. I got other vendors to donate funds to us so that we can do this kind of testing. How none of the forums out there thought of a similar program is beyond me. It's such a simple and easy program, and can help our community immensely. Now we should write off the results because I partnered with someone to start a vendor? That's crazy...

Also, since the post was made, two other people have come forward with similar reactions to Cerebral Health pyritinol. Pair that with the half dozen other people that came forward about their choline bitartrate issue, and this is obviously not an isolated incident. How many others are there out there who have been affected by CH's incompetence, but have not known any better? Many people probably think they just don't react well to that substance, and never question if it is actually what they think it is. This is a very bad thing for our community, and we need to ensure that we don't let it happen again.

[chemicalambrosia]

I just said Longecity was less biased, in response to Laberinthius saying this forum is financially biased. Longecity is a non-profit. You run a nootropics supplier... I honestly don't even know the name of your company or what it sells. No need to get defensive, I wasn't saying you were untrustworthy, but I think by definition you(and Longecity) have at least some bias. Not a big deal, but these are the kind of disclosures that should get made whenever anything like this is discussed. Transparency is good, right?

Anyways, I wouldn't order from Cerebral Health, and never have, and never saw any reason to. Still, this kind of thing isn't too surprising to me. Stuff like this has happened before in the supplement industry, and the nootropics industry seems to be even more "fly by night" than much of the other supplement industry. Does that mean I condone it or think it isn't a big deal? Not at all. The people at Cerebral Health should be held fully liable for this if everything happened as it is being presented and there is proof. I think this would be a pretty open and shut case in either the civil or criminal court, don't you?

and the same reason I started this testing program. I got other vendors to donate funds to us so that we can do this kind of testing. How none of the forums out there thought of a similar program is beyond me. It's such a simple and easy program, and can help our community immensely. Now we should write off the results because I partnered with someone to start a vendor? That's crazy...

Other people have thought of similar ideas, they just never got done. Kudos to you guys for doing it... however, I bet most of the people here haven't even heard of it. It isn't very high visibility, to tell you the truth. It should be a sticky in a forum, but IMO reddit is a pretty terrible interface compared to forums like these. I can hardly even find anything about it through a google search. You could exand that program here and get a lot more support and visibility for it...

Also, since the post was made, two other people have come forward with similar reactions to Cerebral Health pyritinol. Pair that with the half dozen other people that came forward about their choline bitartrate issue, and this is obviously not an isolated incident. How many others are there out there who have been affected by CH's incompetence, but have not known any better? Many people probably think they just don't react well to that substance, and never question if it is actually what they think it is. This is a very bad thing for our community, and we need to ensure that we don't let it happen again.

Other than the independent third-party testing, and holding Cerebral Health accountable, do you have any other ideas on how to prevent this in the future and hold suppliers to higher standards?

[Ceretropic]

There is really not much to be biased on. Someone went to the hospital, so we tested CH's product. It came back as negative for pyritinol. My feelings about their business, or my other business dealings, are irrelevant. When someone brings up an irrelevant piece of information in a discussion, one can only assume it is due to an attempt to marginalize their position. That is why I am defensive. I run another consulting business as well, and take Zyrtec every day for a histamine disorder. All irrelevant to the testing results we received about Cerebral Health's product.

And keep in mind I am here because someone linked this post saying people were attacking our credibility. So it was framed to me in such a way that automatically made me defensive.

Other people have thought of similar ideas, they just never got done. Kudos to you guys for doing it... however, I bet most of the people here haven't even heard of it. It isn't very high visibility, to tell you the truth. It should be a sticky in a forum, but IMO reddit is a pretty terrible interface compared to forums like these. I can hardly even find anything about it through a google search. You could expand that program here and get a lot more support and visibility for it...

It's highly visible to our readers. I read most of the Longecity posts too, and have for years. I cannot stand the forum style of posting, as anyone can derail a thread by asking different questions. Since it happens often, and all comments are posted in a linear fashion, I get really annoyed trying to follow a line of thinking. Reddit's nested comment structure allows anyone to ask different questions, then have their own comment tree within a thread. It's so much easier to sift through. Plus, Reddit's search function works very well. Perhaps you have not tried it out long enough. In any event, it really comes down to personal preference. Many of our readers are Longecity members as well. I also spoke to MrHappy on Reddit, who is also a moderator here. He said that he and the other moderators would be discussing it. I am not sure what they are doing about it, though, as I am not a moderator here. I am more than willing to work with anyone that wants to be a part of the program. So far I am the only one willing to do the work and organization to make it happen. I would love to have someone else to help out, as I am busy.

Other than the independent third-party testing, and holding Cerebral Health accountable, do you have any other ideas on how to prevent this in the future and hold suppliers to higher standards?

I think we need to push for more dialogue between vendors and consumers. Also, relationships between moderators/admins of the community should be established. When each side knows the expectations of the other, they are more willing to work together to meet them. Obviously we have to push for people to be more cautious about who they choose to buy from. I am guilty of that as well. In the beginning I bought from Nootrabiolabs and just assumed what they were telling me was true. I have since realized that I cannot just trust people blindly. That message needs to be repeated to everyone out there. There is not a lot of accountability in the nootropics space. We need to change that.

Also, we need to push for more empirical evidence and studies on the different substances we use. We are relying too heavily on anecdotes, which are shaky at best. I am also working on doing a placebo blinded trial of various racetams on healthy individuals. Also, a few others have spoken to me on Reddit about starting their own testing plan. There is a doctor setting up a trial of noopept and modafinil right now. So we need to try and work together to advance the community together. Funding is out there. We just need to organize it and get creative. Waiting for others to perform studies, or waiting for companies to fund FDA approvals, is just not going to cut it.

[chemicalambrosia]

It's highly visible to our readers. I read most of the Longecity posts too, and have for years. I cannot stand the forum style of posting, as anyone can derail a thread by asking different questions. Since it happens often, and all comments are posted in a linear fashion, I get really annoyed trying to follow a line of thinking. Reddit's nested comment structure allows anyone to ask different questions, then have their own comment tree within a thread. It's so much easier to sift through. Plus, Reddit's search function works very well. Perhaps you have not tried it out long enough. In any event, it really comes down to personal preference. Many of our readers are Longecity members as well. I also spoke to MrHappy on Reddit, who is also a moderator here. He said that he and the other moderators would be discussing it. I am not sure what they are doing about it, though, as I am not a moderator here. I am more than willing to work with anyone that wants to be a part of the program. So far I am the only one willing to do the work and organization to make it happen. I would love to have someone else to help out, as I am busy.

I check reddit from time to time, and saw the testing mentioned in a thread there or here. However, until I actually used reddit's search function I couldn't find the actual thread. Google didn't turn it up quickly. Unless someone reads reddit every day there would be a good chance they wouldn't know about it... unless I'm missing a reddit function or something. Someone new to nootropics who hops on reddit, are they going to see a pinned thread or immediately see it in some other way?

Also, the last update on the thread appears to be 3 months ago. Have there been any results back since then?

I don't mind the nested structure too much... its that there is only one forum with one page and not that many active threads. I guess the focus is a little more narrow than this forum, but to each their own. If you read forums like this a lot you've got to get good at skimming and skipping useless posts and threads.

I think we need to push for more dialogue between vendors and consumers. Also, relationships between moderators/admins of the community should be established. When each side knows the expectations of the other, they are more willing to work together to meet them. Obviously we have to push for people to be more cautious about who they choose to buy from. I am guilty of that as well. In the beginning I bought from Nootrabiolabs and just assumed what they were telling me was true. I have since realized that I cannot just trust people blindly. That message needs to be repeated to everyone out there. There is not a lot of accountability in the nootropics space. We need to change that.

Also, we need to push for more empirical evidence and studies on the different substances we use. We are relying too heavily on anecdotes, which are shaky at best. I am also working on doing a placebo blinded trial of various racetams on healthy individuals. Also, a few others have spoken to me on Reddit about starting their own testing plan. There is a doctor setting up a trial of noopept and modafinil right now. So we need to try and work together to advance the community together. Funding is out there. We just need to organize it and get creative. Waiting for others to perform studies, or waiting for companies to fund FDA approvals, is just not going to cut it.

Maybe you could start a thread in the brain health forum and explain the process of how someone would go about testing nootropics through a lab similar to how you've done it. The members of this forum have impressive group buys in the works, it wouldn't be too far fetched to think people here would be interested in this.

Edited by chemicalambrosia, 26 September 2013 - 12:31 AM.

[Ceretropic]

Are you referring to the testing plan thread, or the Cerebral Health results thread? The CH thread is pinned to the top of the subreddit, and highlighted in green. Everyone should see it first when going there. The testing plan thread was discussed a while ago, but we did not pin it to the top of the page. We still have funds left over. However, once we start getting low, we'll make a new post about it. Also, we might consider setting up a crowdfunding site for the testing, that way anyone can donate easier.

I might make a post about testing. I have developed a relationship Colmeric Analyticals. They give us good rates for testing, and are easy to work with. I have also worked with other vendors to get them to use Colmeric for all their testing as well. That standardizes us on a specific testing method. Both Health Supplement Wholesalers and Peak Nootropics are using them for their testing now. Also, Nootropics Depot is going to be doing their own in-house testing. They are purchasing an entire testing lab. They currently have an FTIR to start with.

[chemicalambrosia]

I was referring to the testing plan thread. I see now that you can pin topics. I can't recall seeing one pinned before. I had trouble finding it the testing plan thread, a reddit search is apparently a lot better for reddit than a google search.

I don't notice the ads here enough to know if Cerebral health is still advertising here. If they are it would be nice to get a statement from the mods here on the current situation.

Thank you for the good news on the third party testing. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for selling untested substances straight out of China...

[Ceretropic]

Yeah, the Reddit search is the way to go to find specific threads. Google works well for Longecity, but not as well for Reddit.

If you notice, Cerebral Health's sponsored post is still up here on Longecity: http://www.longecity..._90#entry613985

Someone just commented that they wanted to buy piracetam from them. However, they also said the main customer service email is bouncing. They have also been completely silent since I posted the results of the testing. So I am not sure what they are doing. I imagine they have spoken to a lawyer, who has informed them to not say anything until formal charges are brought forth. Of they think ignoring it will make it go away.

[Steve Zissou]

Well I for one will never buy something from this company. They way they have handled this situation is extremely unprofessional. I would be ashamed if I was part of this company.

[samiamm]

So are we just going to let this die? where is synapse?? we deserve a f****** explanation

[Ceretropic]

I certainly am not. Synapse has deleted his sponsored post that most of the discussion was on, and has ignored anyone's emails regarding the incident. A report has been filed with the FDA, so perhaps they are doing their investigation now.

It's blatantly obvious that he is not taking this seriously, and is not going to change his shitty business practices. I honestly cannot understand how Cerebral Health even got such a good name in this community. He has never done testing of any kind, has a horrible website, and is extremely bad at customer service. Plus, if you start digging into the financials and tax records for his LLC, you can see that most of what he says is bullshit anyway. Hopefully people understand the significance of what transpired, and stop ordering from him. It's not worth the risk. This community deserves more than the outright dangerous practices Doug seems to think is acceptable.

[chemicalambrosia]

This forum is less financially biased than Reddit, since a mod or mods of reddit are apparently starting a nootropics company. Anyways, the mods here seem incredibly professional and obviously haven't censored this discussion at all.

I'm quoting myself here only because this topic was bumped to the top, and a previous long thread on the problems with cerebral health were deleted since this post. I wish whoever was responsible would give an explanation, because at this point it looks like censorship/favorable treatment with the deleting of that thread.

[Ceretropic]

The post most of the comments happened on was a sponsored post, so I assume Synapse deleted it after a while. Or perhaps it is one of those advertising posts that needs to be renewed, and he chose not to. A Longecity moderator would know more that I do, though.

[ta5]

Anyone who was subscribed to that sponsored thread would have all the messages in their email and could post them somewhere else.

[Sanguine_Rogue]

Wow I'm amazed I just stumbled onto this. I hope everything has been squared away..

[Ceretropic]

Well an FDA case was opened. However, they will not speak about the progress of it once started, so I don't know where that currently is going. Doug from Cerebral Health deleted the post where we were discussing it, and did not seem like he was interested in figuring out what happened.

[blood]

Well an FDA case was opened. However, they will not speak about the progress of it once started, so I don't know where that currently is going. Doug from Cerebral Health deleted the post where we were discussing it, and did not seem like he was interested in figuring out what happened.

If your highest priority was the welfare of people, then why did you not do this at the start? Instead, you spent long months taking pot shots at Cerebral Health on this forum.

I don't believe that Cerebral Health is any better or worse than all the rest selling nootropics. None of you do finished-product, third party testing.

Edited by blood, 25 January 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[Ceretropic]

I figured it would be prudent to give Cerebral Health time to figure out what happened internally, before involving a government agency that would bring more scrutiny on the community as a whole. Once it was clear that Doug was not interested in rectifying the issue, and preventing it from happening in the future, the FDA was the only logical next step. I'm sorry if you disagree with that. However, to insinuate that I had anything other than the people's welfare in the highest priority, is asinine. Why would I spend a great deal of my valuable time to run a testing program if I was not looking out for people's safety?

I don't believe that Cerebral Health is any better or worse than all the rest selling nootropics. None of you do finished-product, third party testing.

That's just a stupid statement, and you know it. We test all of our incoming products before sending to customers. We have already caught a shipment of EDTA and a shipment of baking soda that was supposed to be coluracetam and pitolisant. Also, Nootropics Depot has purchased their own testing lab to test their incoming products. They have been working closely with us to test various products before we send them to Colmeric Analyticals for further purity testing. They have spent over $40,000 so far on equipment alone. Hell, even New Star Nootropics sends all their incoming shipments to Analytical Laboratories in Anaheim California. I know, because I have called all the labs to verify that the vendors are testing. Insinuating that Cerebral Health is on par with that is a joke. They sent someone to the fucking hospital for Christ's sake! They were selling diphenhydramine labeled as pyritinol... This was even after I alerted them to their choline bitartrate issue. Willful ignorance barely even scratches the surface.

Perhaps you think I should have involved the FDA from the get-go. At least I could somewhat agree with you there. I just hoped that we could handle the issue like god damned adults, and not have to bring the government in to clean up our mess. But no, Doug did not take my countless requests to figure out the issue seriously. I had hoped that the nootropics community would hold people accountable, and that its vendors would take issues seriously enough that we would not have to call in big brother to come monitor us. By your asinine comments alone, I know that not to be the case. No, it is clear to me now that even if you spend $40,000 fucking dollars on your own testing lab, that you will be placed in the same category as a vendor that sent someone to the hospital by mislabeling Benadryl.

[doublenickels]

I am sooo glad I stubled opon this thread.

[samiamm]

Getting the FDA involved in this was fucking asinine; 

That just screws it for everyone in the community when suppliers are put in the oven;

 

a simple third part analysis, and release of test results would have been enough; 
 

Also I realize im bumping an old thread, but felt this was important enough to justify it; If you get the FDA Involved in anything, the entire community gets screwed; 

 

Excuse my frustration

Edited by samiamm, 15 March 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[nootropicsandsarms]

more and more cheater for this kind products,be careful,ask a NMR or other report before ordering