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Does niacin cure schizophrenia or not?

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#1 username

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 05:31 AM


I still suffer from from feeling watched (gestures, eye contac because of me) and some rare low-volume hallucinations as well as isolating myself. The only thing I take now is fish oil (reduced hallucinations significantly) and I'm currently in a psychiatry because I had been suicidal (right now I'm not :) )

I tried my 3rd antipsychotic here and that stuff is just toxic. I developed akathisia and it's still there even though I haven't taken it for three days -.-

 

I read about niacin on doctor-yourself.com and bought the book 'niacin: the real story'. Allegedly, the use of niacin is disproven. (http://www.schizophr.../treatments.php)

But the studies that are linked to on that website don't say anything about the dosage?

And why are Hoffer's studies supposed to be that bad?

What actually convinces me to try this is the toxicity of antipsychotics. That stuff is just awful.

 

What do you guys think of niacin? hoax? real?

I took 3g yesterday and will continue to do so for 4 weeks. After that I'll try the ketogenic diet. (one case study on schizophrenia and a few cases of depression and bipolar disorder with success)

 


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#2 Gerrans

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:29 AM

I think the chances that niacin can cure schizophrenia are low, but it is a fairly safe supplement and so it is worth a try. For a few people--for example, those with an undiagnosed genetic B3 dependency--it could be miraculous, so you might as well find out. Niacin does seem to help with anxiety, by cycling tryptophan and other serotonin-related substances in a useful way, working by different mechanisms from the usual schizophrenia drugs. So if it can help take away the problems caused by those drugs while also lowering anxiety, it may be worth a go just for that reason.

 

I am a big fan of niacin, because its dilating effects on the blood vessels help with poor circulation in my extremities. Best of luck.

 

*

 

By the way, Hoffer seems to have been a smart and honest doctor; but, meticulous though they were, his records should I think be regarded as semi-anecdotal evidence, because they lacked a control group. It could be that patients who failed to benefit from his treatment did not stay with him, whereas those that found it helpful did. In which case a circle of mutual positivity would form between patient and doctor, confounding the objectivity of Hoffer's conclusions.


Edited by Gerrans, 06 August 2014 - 09:40 AM.

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#3 username

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 11:57 AM

I'm glad that it's good fo cholesterol. I can just continue taking it indefinitely without feeling silly since it does help in some way and keeps my cholesterol in check (which is pretty good, though).

Another thing I'll try is minocycline.



#4 Tom_

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 11:20 AM

Niacine is going to do nothing for Schizophrenia. The chances the fish oils are making any difference are almost none. The most likely story is that you are in current partial remission with post psychotic depression (explaning the suicidality). There is no cure for Schizophrenia. It remains a long term illness normally beginning to reduce in severity by mid 30's to early 40's and becoming non-signicant in the 50's. However proper control can significantly improve functional ability and reduce the amount of acute and florid psychotic breaks.

 

If you want to stay well antipsychotics are sadly the best choice. There are antipsychotics out there that are much less likkely to give you list of side effects. Due to what could well be depressive symptoms it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider an antidepressant either - with a positive on a proper evalutation for post-psychotic depression.

If you insist on trying supplements then you should be sniffing around Sarcosine, L-Theanine, n-acetylcysteine, a good quality medical grade mulit-vit once every few days for a couple of months, Glycine and possibly a few others.

 

Treating schizophrenia with a theory based approach (observed neurological abnomalities) is by no means well evidence based. And those supplements that have shown effiacy almost always show most if not all of their effiacy when combined with antipsychotics, typically atypical ones.

The main targets are the Dopamine system, the Glutemate system, the Serotonin system and the Acetylcholine system.

 

Glycine, Sarcosine and N-acetylcysteine target the glutemate system. L-Theanine targets glutemate and dopamine and possibily serotonin, Noopept may increase hippocampal mass and improve cognitive functioning, Modafinil can improve motivation and social ability (and it doesn't tend to worsen psychosis) and Citiocholine targets a whole range of systems.

 

However more important than any of the supplements is psychotherapy and behavioual changes. CBT and Systemic therapy show particular effiacy in Schizophrenia. Increasing social activity and physical activity are also major parts of rehabilition.


Edited by Tom_, 07 August 2014 - 11:31 AM.

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#5 Flex

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 01:32 PM

I´m really not a big fan of those sites who claim something like conspiracy or like here: the real story.

Did You notice that on this site, they do make only claims for Vitamins and Minerals

and.. wow!.. Choline

http://www.doctoryou.../alzheimer.html

 

On the other hand afaik there was actually something conspiracy like for Arteriosclerosis.

A Scientist found out that Methionine contributes as equally as cholesterol to Arteriosclerosis and that B Vitamins could reduce it.

But if its true, it is just one of the few cases.

You must imagine that right now there are a mass of People who are working in all the laboratories arround the world

to research and find cures of all kind of diseases. How could they all be fooled ?

 

Try Your luck and I wish You the best, but be allways healthily sceptic to both sides..



#6 username

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:46 AM

Niacine is going to do nothing for Schizophrenia. The chances the fish oils are making any difference are almost none. The most likely story is that you are in current partial remission with post psychotic depression (explaning the suicidality). There is no cure for Schizophrenia. It remains a long term illness normally beginning to reduce in severity by mid 30's to early 40's and becoming non-signicant in the 50's. However proper control can significantly improve functional ability and reduce the amount of acute and florid psychotic breaks.

 

If you want to stay well antipsychotics are sadly the best choice. There are antipsychotics out there that are much less likkely to give you list of side effects. Due to what could well be depressive symptoms it wouldn't be a bad idea to consider an antidepressant either - with a positive on a proper evalutation for post-psychotic depression.

If you insist on trying supplements then you should be sniffing around Sarcosine, L-Theanine, n-acetylcysteine, a good quality medical grade mulit-vit once every few days for a couple of months, Glycine and possibly a few others.

 

Treating schizophrenia with a theory based approach (observed neurological abnomalities) is by no means well evidence based. And those supplements that have shown effiacy almost always show most if not all of their effiacy when combined with antipsychotics, typically atypical ones.

The main targets are the Dopamine system, the Glutemate system, the Serotonin system and the Acetylcholine system.

 

Glycine, Sarcosine and N-acetylcysteine target the glutemate system. L-Theanine targets glutemate and dopamine and possibily serotonin, Noopept may increase hippocampal mass and improve cognitive functioning, Modafinil can improve motivation and social ability (and it doesn't tend to worsen psychosis) and Citiocholine targets a whole range of systems.

 

However more important than any of the supplements is psychotherapy and behavioual changes. CBT and Systemic therapy show particular effiacy in Schizophrenia. Increasing social activity and physical activity are also major parts of rehabilition.

 

There are studies on fish oil. I know it works. If it doesn't, it's a great placebo anyway. It's been shown to prevent people from developing schizophrenia.

Hoffer performed several double-blind placebo-controlled studies in the 1950s. I will give you a citation from his book later on. I know he's not being taken seriously, but I don't care.

Abilify made my symptoms worse (I became more paranoid). I'm pretty sure of that. I feel much better since I stopped taking it.

I used sarcosine and NAC with little to no improvement. Maybe I didn't take it long enough, though.

I tried several antidepressants and antipsychotics. I took moclobemide for 6 weeks - no effect. All suicidal thoughts disappeared without meds through therapy at the psychiatry. Quite impressive I must say. My depression seems to be well-treatable. I still have problems with my psychotic symptoms which limit me immensely.

 

Increasing social activity is very hard when you feel watched ;) But I'm trying.


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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:49 AM

By the way, niacin prevents Alzheimer's:

http://www.webmd.com...vent-alzheimers

 

There's also a study on mice in which they used high-dose niacin.

 

And it improves cholesterol levels. So no harm being done.



#8 username

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:52 AM

I´m really not a big fan of those sites who claim something like conspiracy or like here: the real story.

Did You notice that on this site, they do make only claims for Vitamins and Minerals

and.. wow!.. Choline

http://www.doctoryou.../alzheimer.html

 

On the other hand afaik there was actually something conspiracy like for Arteriosclerosis.

A Scientist found out that Methionine contributes as equally as cholesterol to Arteriosclerosis and that B Vitamins could reduce it.

But if its true, it is just one of the few cases.

You must imagine that right now there are a mass of People who are working in all the laboratories arround the world

to research and find cures of all kind of diseases. How could they all be fooled ?

 

Try Your luck and I wish You the best, but be allways healthily sceptic to both sides..

 

When you have a disease that's officially incurable, it's worth trying. I don't really identify as schizophrenic anymore since I'm much better compared to last year. I was diagnosed with a severe depression with psychotic features (mini-schizo :laugh:).

 

edit:

great article: https://www.lef.org/...t_hoffer_01.htm

 

Hoffer: We ran it for two years, and then we did a blind follow-up. We had a follow-up team that would call the patients in every three months to see how they were doing, and at the end of the two years, we wanted to see what had happened. We found that for the patients on placebo, there was a 35% recovery rate, which is what you would expect from acute schizophrenic patients. The other two groups had about an 80% recovery rate. These results were very encouraging, so we ran another study, and another. Eventually, I did about six double-blind, controlled experiments in Saskatchewan between 1953 and 1960, and they were all confirmatory.1-3 Also, by this time, I was developing a good deal of clinical experience because I was also treating other patients who didn't fit into our study.

 

 


Edited by longschi, 09 August 2014 - 08:10 AM.


#9 Tom_

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 10:35 AM

Psychotic mood disorders are very different to Psychotic disorders! The treatment should be entirely different! With Antidepressants taking the lead in treatment and an atypical antipsychotic added. Trimipramine may be particually effective in psychotic depression. TCA's are more effective in psychotic depression.

 

Sarcosine shouldn't be trialed in this suitation but a three month trial of N-Acetylcysteine is potentially worth it.

 

An antidepressant should be trialed for a minimum of 8 weeks and atypical antipsychotics should be given at least 6 weeks.

 

 


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Posted 10 August 2014 - 09:08 AM

How are they very different? How do you know they are different?

Hearing voices and becoming paranoid -> schizophrenia

Now I hardly hear voices anymore and I'm more rational -> depression?

Schizophrenics are frequently depressed and in its premorbid state chronic depression is common.

 

It's also very common to avoid the diagnosis schizophrenia in order to give the patient hope.

 

 

I tried antidepressants and antipsychotics. Just being in a different environment for a few weeks did more for my mood than any pill. I'm not all too convinced that these drugs really work. Or work well on the long-term. I don't doubt that antipsychotics can work short-term but over time they cause brain damage, diabetes, tardive dysknesia etc.

 

You seem to have a lot of trust in psychopharmaceuticals and psychiatric diagnoses. I'm quite skeptical. I've seen cases of severe schizophrenia in my time at the hospital and I can't say that these people are in a good state despite medication.


Edited by longschi, 10 August 2014 - 09:12 AM.

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#11 Flex

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 03:59 PM

Whats about aripiprazole ?

Its a partial agnoist and, afaik, can not cause tardive dyskinesia or brain damage/shrinkage

http://neuro.psychia...ticleid=1377401

 

Ok but maybe there is a report out there which states the opposite regarding the increase of gray matter.

Dunno..



#12 Ekscentra

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 04:36 PM

Whats about aripiprazole ?

Its a partial agnoist and, afaik, can not cause tardive dyskinesia or brain damage/shrinkage

http://neuro.psychia...ticleid=1377401

 

Ok but maybe there is a report out there which states the opposite regarding the increase of gray matter.

Dunno..

 

Abilify is the trade name for aripiprazole here in the U.S., so that's obviously off the list in the OP's case.

 

Have you tried nefiracetam? It's been reported to eliminate some of the symptoms of schizophrenia anecdotally, though I can't say I've heard of many folks to have tried this one. NAC and Krill Oil are great additions to a regime as well, as is a good multivitamin.

 

LSD and Psilocybin have been used in a therapeutic context as treatments for schizophrenia, though that's obviously not an option due to the legality of these two substances. I wonder if Ayahuasca and/or Ibogaine might prove to be equally effective in a therapeutic context? I doubt any ibogaine treatment center would allow someone with schizophrenia to be treated with ibogaine, however, but it could be worth a shot anyways.

 

If niacin is truly effective for schizophrenia, perhaps Picamilon or Nicotinamide Riboside could be more effective? Just a thought, I'm not actually aware of anyone suffering from schizophrenia using either of these two substances, but you might try checking around.


Edited by Ekscentra, 10 August 2014 - 04:45 PM.

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#13 username

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:58 AM

Okay, experiment is over. I didn't flush anymore but had constant itching. I will stick with vitamin b, c, fish oil, zinc and magnesium.

A ketogenic diet is too radical, I'll try going gluten-free.

 

And minocycline:

http://www2.kenes.co...shi Miyaoka.pdf

 

Kind of excited to see if it does anything for me.



#14 Gerrans

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 09:41 AM

 

Hoffer: We ran it for two years, and then we did a blind follow-up. We had a follow-up team that would call the patients in every three months to see how they were doing, and at the end of the two years, we wanted to see what had happened. We found that for the patients on placebo, there was a 35% recovery rate, which is what you would expect from acute schizophrenic patients. The other two groups had about an 80% recovery rate. These results were very encouraging, so we ran another study, and another. Eventually, I did about six double-blind, controlled experiments in Saskatchewan between 1953 and 1960, and they were all confirmatory.1-3 Also, by this time, I was developing a good deal of clinical experience because I was also treating other patients who didn't fit into our study.

 

 

 

Apologies, I did not realise Hoffer had run blinded studies. However, I still have my doubts about it. Maybe if you run your own studies from within your medical practice you do not have the objectivity required. There is a suspicious lack of other evidence that niacin cures schizophrenia, though it might help ease the brain and reduce anxiety to some extent.

 

So how could this be? How could an honest doctor like Hoffer claim to have had so much success with niacin and schizophrenia? In my view, it could have been the friendly doctor effect. Because he had such a strong, caring, and committed personality, perhaps Hoffer helped patients with schizophrenia because they had faith in him. After all, it is a syndrome with complex emotional dimensions.

 

I remember seeing a documentary about reflexology, which is an unproven therapy involving manipulation of the feet. On the one hand we had all these patients saying how their gout had been cured and the like; on the other we had all the experts saying that reflexology could not cure such things and was, in effect, bogus. It became clear in the later part of the programme that the undoubted success of the reflexologists must have been a psychological outcome of the friendly doctor syndrome. In the National Health Service, patients were being treated briskly and relatively unsympathetically within an underfunded system; whereas their appointments with reflexologists were an hour long and marked by gentle, therapeutic, and sympathetic one-to-one care. In such circumstances people can get well: maybe it was the same with Hoffer's treatment of schizophrenia.

 


Edited by Gerrans, 15 August 2014 - 09:41 AM.

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#15 username

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 02:41 PM

I believe that it does help cure schizophrenia. High-dose niacin decreases CRP (anti-inflammatory) and improves people's lipid profile. But the biggest part is humane and decent treatment ('friendly doctor effect' as you said) and spontaneous remission (this can even occur after years of catatonic schizophrenia). One-third becomes healthy again without medication. 5-10% become healthy when they take meds. Aantipsychotics decrease the chance of full recovery in the long-run and developing countries have higher recovery rates. I just recently found that out. There's a study done by the WHO.

 

It's no coincidence that both fish oil (EPA) and aspirin seem to work better than placebo in mood disorders -> anti-inflammatory

 

Hoffer even made one chronic schizophrenic part of her family and she became healthy again and later worked as a nurse for thirty years. I guess human interaction really plays a huge role in healing.

 

Well, I'll start with 200mg/day of minocycline. Let's see if it works. I hope it does. There comes a time when you just don't have the energy more to go on. I wanna be healthy again.


Edited by longschi, 15 August 2014 - 02:43 PM.

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 02:45 PM

There is no cure for Schizophrenia. It remains a long term illness normally beginning to reduce in severity by mid 30's to early 40's and becoming non-signicant in the 50's. However proper control can significantly improve functional ability and reduce the amount of acute and florid psychotic breaks.

 

This is not true by the way (as I mentioned in my post above). One-third goes into FULL remission (if they don't take meds).
 


Edited by longschi, 15 August 2014 - 02:46 PM.


#17 username

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

from 18min onwards


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#18 Flex

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:11 PM

When You are fighting for something, then sometimes or eventually You get the earnings.

In my view, You deserve Gold with this one because it changed my view.

 

I dont know whether You understand German but this would be very informative in regards of the Pharma-companies who are paying Doctors to re-write DSM suggestions for their favor

http://www.zdf.de/zd...r-32760518.html

 

Regarding to this Documentation from the German public service broadcasting ZDF (!), has Dr. Joseph L. Biederman the Coautor of the DSM suggested to perscribe Risperdal to ADHD

http://www.cchrint.o...polar-epidemic/

http://www.cchrint.o...tical-industry/

 

This was uncovered by Prof Lisa Cosgrove from the University of Massachusetts Boston

http://www.umb.edu/a...y/lisa_cosgrove

 



#19 username

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Posted 16 August 2014 - 09:23 AM

I just found that documentary yesterday and I have to say it really made me think. It is surprising that natural recovery rates are so high and medications can actually lower them.

I'll take a look at the links later, thanks :) (yup, I'm German)



#20 StevesPetRat

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 05:24 AM

You might have some luck with Niacinamide and/or NR and avoid the flush.

Also, though these are off-topic, you might have a look. Do you have any gastrointestinal problems?

http://www.psycholog...schizophrenia-0

http://www.maneyonli...X12611460763968

People are drawing conclusions about whatever neurotransmitter systems being involved in schizophrenia when we really still have no goddamn idea. Good luck, OP.



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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:00 AM

I don't know what kind of disease I have but I believe it makes most sense to research schizophrenia (although currently I'm clearly not schizophrenic).

Since I started taking minocycline my digestion improved IMMENSELY. Acid reflux, burping etc. is still there, but my digestion is healthy now. I've been taking the medication for a week. I don't have any side effects.

I'm mostly gluten-free I would say. I stopped eating bread and spaghetti and that's not really much of a problem for me. I can't fully stop drinking beer, though.



#22 8bitmore

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Posted 20 August 2014 - 10:37 AM

I don't know what kind of disease I have but I believe it makes most sense to research schizophrenia (although currently I'm clearly not schizophrenic).

Since I started taking minocycline my digestion improved IMMENSELY. Acid reflux, burping etc. is still there, but my digestion is healthy now. I've been taking the medication for a week. I don't have any side effects.

I'm mostly gluten-free I would say. I stopped eating bread and spaghetti and that's not really much of a problem for me. I can't fully stop drinking beer, though.

 

If you want to really see if its the gluten that affects you I can almost guarantee you that skipping the beer will be necessary: look into gluten free beers, there's quite a few on the market already!



#23 Roshambo

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Posted 21 August 2014 - 07:07 AM

Well niacin is a pretty good vasodilator and vasodilation causes lowering in blood pressure which could reduce some of the anxiety from the schizophrenia.



#24 Nemo888

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:02 PM

Short answer is obviously pellagra.

 

Pellagra induced schizophrenia was relatively common in the early 1900's. The test was giving the afflicted niacin and seeing if the episodes resolved. They often did as pellagra is a niacin deficiency.

 

Sadly that is not the only etiology for the disorder.

 

There is a long interesting highly political story that involves J. Edgar Hoover, the Commies, Linus Pauling and nuclear weapons as to why this is not remembered or readily available medical knowledge. Perhaps in a thread on schizophrenia it is not appropriate as it sounds pretty kooky.

 

If you did have pellagra you would have other symptoms and it would resolve in a week with supplementation. Like scurvy it is quite rare in the developed world.

 

P.S. @ Gerrans Hoffer's work was a long time ago. Deficiencies may still have been common back then. But his association with Linus Pauling was his undoing in the scientific community IMO.

 


Edited by Nemo888, 22 August 2014 - 01:22 PM.


#25 Luxflux

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Posted 24 August 2014 - 08:12 PM

I wouldn't discount anything. There are plenty of naysayers about fish oil, but my WAIS-III IQ(which is an indicator of brain health, and was due in part to a rise in the digit symbol coding subtest, a litmus test for schizophrenia cognitive symptoms) rocketed up 15 points after a few months of fish oil administration, not to mention I got my first girlfriend in years, returned to school, etc. Schizophrenia is very complex and has many different types. If its safe, I would trial anything and see if you get lucky and respond. Many substances that studies have found have no effect have had a *profound* impact on me and my life(sarcosine, fish oil, etc.) Until schizophrenia is "solved", anything with even anecdotal evidence is fair game as far as I'm concerned.


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#26 Area-1255

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:23 AM

OP - check your whole blood and serum histamine levels, and check the symptom list for low NMDA and see if you fit it--> Signs and Symptoms of Low NMDA Activity

Histamine Imbalances  : Am I Low or High? - Relation to Methylation Explored


You may benefit from niacin..other natural remedies for dissociate states and or schizo symptoms would be

-Forskolin

-Possibly NMDA or D-Aspartic Acid

-Fixing methylation issues and histamine imbalances.


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#27 YoungSchizo

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:30 PM

I fit in the high Histamine balance, though, it sky-rockets when getting psychotic (causing a imbalance I guess). And I guess when on medication it kinda lowers Histamine too much if I compare myself with the old me.. This may not be such a great idea but on the other hand it might work out very well, how do I increase Histamine levels?  



#28 Area-1255

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 12:34 PM

I fit in the high Histamine balance, though, it sky-rockets when getting psychotic (causing a imbalance I guess). And I guess when on medication it kinda lowers Histamine too much if I compare myself with the old me.. This may not be such a great idea but on the other hand it might work out very well, how do I increase Histamine levels?  

Folate Supplementation, apart from a B-Complex, Nicain and B12 both raise histamine as well.

Walking daily raises histamine production. 

You can also try some H3 antagonists (autoreceptor blockers) that enhance histamine...one natural product is called "Yamoa", it actually lowers inflammation and histamine preferably everywhere - but keeps it alive and active in the brain/CNS where ya might want it.

 

http://area1255.blog...mine-3-h3r.html

 

 

 


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#29 Logan

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:19 PM


There is no cure for Schizophrenia. It remains a long term illness normally beginning to reduce in severity by mid 30's to early 40's and becoming non-signicant in the 50's. However proper control can significantly improve functional ability and reduce the amount of acute and florid psychotic breaks.


This is not true by the way (as I mentioned in my post above). One-third goes into FULL remission (if they don't take meds).

Where is the proof for this? I
Sorry, but I do not believe it.

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#30 Logan

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Posted 27 August 2014 - 06:25 PM

If you suffer from schizophrenia, maybe consider taking depakote ER. I only say to try this version as it is less likely to have some side effects.


AuthorsHan K, et al. Show all Journal
Nature. 2013 Nov 7;503(7474):72-7. doi: 10.1038/nature12630. Epub 2013 Oct 23.

Affiliation
Comment in
Pharmacogenomics. 2014 Apr;15(6):735-8.
Abstract
Mutations in SHANK3 and large duplications of the region spanning SHANK3 both cause a spectrum of neuropsychiatric disorders, indicating that proper SHANK3 dosage is critical for normal brain function. However, SHANK3 overexpression per se has not been established as a cause of human disorders because 22q13 duplications involve several genes. Here we report that Shank3 transgenic mice modelling a human SHANK3 duplication exhibit manic-like behaviour and seizures consistent with synaptic excitatory/inhibitory imbalance. We also identified two patients with hyperkinetic disorders carrying the smallest SHANK3-spanning duplications reported so far. These findings indicate that SHANK3 overexpression causes a hyperkinetic neuropsychiatric disorder. To probe the mechanism underlying the phenotype, we generated a Shank3 in vivo interactome and found that Shank3 directly interacts with the Arp2/3 complex to increase F-actin levels in Shank3 transgenic mice. The mood-stabilizing drug valproate, but not lithium, rescues the manic-like behaviour of Shank3 transgenic mice raising the possibility that this hyperkinetic disorder has a unique pharmacogenetic profile.

PMID 24153177 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID PMC3923348 Free Full Text
Free full text: Nature Publishing Group

Here is evidence that Depakote enhances neuroplasticity closer to a child's state.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC3848041/

Edited by Logan, 27 August 2014 - 06:27 PM.






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