30 replies to this topic

[maggie67]

Apart from calcium and Vitamin D has anyone beaten osteo with  other supps-resveratrol,oxytocin,K2,strontium or anything more exoteric? 

[niner]

Well, yes and no.  I've used everything under the sun, but used Actonel at the same time.  I got a very good response according to DEXA scans, but I never tried it without the Actonel.  I've been off of Actonel for over a year, but am still using microcrystalline hydroxyappatite, K2, silica, and D.  Maybe I'll get another scan before I restart the Actonel.  I'm cycling it on a long time scale to allow for bone remodeling.

[maggie67]

I have been offered Prolia and am considering Forteo but am trying to wait for results of phase 3 trials of abaloparatide (BA058) which so far has had the best bone building results but side effect profile is not clear.I presume you haven't had any bad SE's from Actonel.I noticed in another post you were taking Bone-up-are you still? Are you taking MK-4 or 7? I have a T-score of -2.5 and am hoping to better or maintain this with supplements as I am wary of SE's-atypical femur break and osteonecrosis of jaw as I have some of the risk factors so am looking at high dose resv,low dose estrogen etc (am female)  until something better  comes along.Thanks for your reply- would you mind sharing your DEXA improvement scores?

[GhostBuster]

As far as I know BMD in itself is not a good measure whether the treatment of osteoporosis is succesful or not. The bone biophosphates grow is not the same that the body normally produces. So biophosphates will increase BMD, but they probably won't decrease fractures. While vitamin K supplementation probably won't increase BMD, but at the same time it will decrease fractures.

[niner]

I have been offered Prolia and am considering Forteo but am trying to wait for results of phase 3 trials of abaloparatide (BA058) which so far has had the best bone building results but side effect profile is not clear.I presume you haven't had any bad SE's from Actonel.I noticed in another post you were taking Bone-up-are you still? Are you taking MK-4 or 7? I have a T-score of -2.5 and am hoping to better or maintain this with supplements as I am wary of SE's-atypical femur break and osteonecrosis of jaw as I have some of the risk factors so am looking at high dose resv,low dose estrogen etc (am female)  until something better  comes along.Thanks for your reply- would you mind sharing your DEXA improvement scores?

 

No side effects at all from Actonel.  The atypical femur break thing is presumably due to a reduced level of bone remodeling, so my approach there has been to cycle it on a very long time scale.  I've been off for a couple years, and will probably start again soon.  I've decided that I'm going to get another DEXA scan before I start again.    My worst T-score was -2.5, and after a year of treatment I had BMD improvements of 4.1 to 7.0%, depending on region.  I'm not sure how that translates into T-score.   I'm using LEF's mixed MK-7/MK-4/K1 product at the moment, and in the past have used MK-7 because of it's better pharmacokinetics compared to MK-4.   I used BoneUp for a long time, but quit it because I didn't want the supplemental copper that it contains.  I'm now using Swanson's Boneology, which is just straight MCHA.  I've been using a hydrolyzed collagen product recently, which I initially started for skin, but given that bone contains collagen, I speculate that it helps bone strength in ways that wouldn't show up in a density measurement.

 

Is high dose resveratrol supposed to be good for bones?  I don't remember hearing that.  An estrogenic effect, maybe? 

As far as I know BMD in itself is not a good measure whether the treatment of osteoporosis is succesful or not. The bone biophosphates grow is not the same that the body normally produces. So biophosphates will increase BMD, but they probably won't decrease fractures. While vitamin K supplementation probably won't increase BMD, but at the same time it will decrease fractures.

 

bisphosphonates have been shown to reduce fractures.

[maggie67]

Estrogenic effect...very possibly.The Danish study of men with metabolic syndrome and osteoporosis who took 1000mg/daily in 2 doses reversed their condition -hard to know if resv merely attached to estrogen receptors in the case of their osteo or did a combination of things.The study was only 16 weeks I think so it is also unknown how they responded longterm on or off this dosage...and how it applies to women who take estrogen.I take the mk-4 45mg daily and mk-7 every couple of days following the japanese protocol-supposedly does no harm and hopefully does some good-at  least clearing some of the supplementary calcium from the arteries.Will do another DEXA in a couple of months plus Ntx test for bone loss and if no improvement will consider medication.Will look into the swanson supp also-thanks for the reply!

[Luminosity]

Here's some supplements that could help.  What grows cartilage grows bone. 

 

http://www.longecity...grow-cartilage/

 

Hopefully you've eliminated or reduced things that make these conditions worse?  Smoking, coffee, soda, caffeine, inactivity, chocolate, black tea (for some), acidic food and drinks?  Try a splash of olive oil or whole milk yogurt with herbs on a salad, for instance.  Try a less-acidic fruit with breakfast instead of orange juice.  Hopefully you eat enough healthy fats, which your body needs to metabolize nutrients needed to make bones.  Take Vitamin D with a meal containing fat of oil.

 

Some food sources of vitamin K:  Green tea, taken hot and plain, Green Magma supplement, Fermented Green Prairie Grasses.   The last two are available from Swansons (I think).

 

Do not take any phosphate drugs like Forteo.  They leach material from the inside of your bones, so material accretes on the outside of the bones, making test results look better but with no increase in bone strength.  Bad news.  They make you bones weaker.  Look up Phossy Jaw or Fossy Jaw, a disease people used to get when they worked with phosphorus.  There is no lack of phosphorus in the Western diet, being abundant in wheat and soda.  You may know that Niner is a chemist who works in the pharmaceutical industry.  

 

The diet and lifestyle prescribed by Chinese Medicine may help.  I've written about it here.  You can also have acupuncture or herbs for this.  There are herbal tonics in Chinese Medicine to grow bones, but it is better to have one prescribed for you, if possible.

 

http://www.longecity...inese-medicine/   

Edited by Luminosity, 21 December 2014 - 05:55 AM.

[maggie67]

Thanks Luminosity- I certainly get enough yoghurt and olive oil,fruit and vegetables.At the moment I'm taking LEx Bone strength but will continue on with Boneology (great price) that I have ordered but still a slave to morning coffee.Will order green tea supp-cannot drink the real thing and add to usual curcumin,resv,silymarin etc,etc and look into chinese herbal remedies altho many seem to be estrogenic at first glance!

[ta5]

PLoS One. 2012;7(4):e35712.

Resveratrol mediated modulation of Sirt-1/Runx2 promotes osteogenic differentiation of mesenchymal stem cells: potential role of Runx2 deacetylation.

Shakibaei M1, Shayan P, Busch F, Aldinger C, Buhrmann C, Lueders C, Mobasheri A.

PMID: 22539994

 

Full text is available.

 

From the discussion:

Resveratrol’s enhancement of osteogenesis was, at least in part regulated by Runx2 with additional contributions by Sirt-1. Resveratrol increases alkaline phosphatase activity in osteoblastic cells [10] an effect that is blocked by tamoxifen, an estrogen antagonist, suggesting that some of resveratrol’s stimulatory actions may be mediated through the estrogen receptor. Gehm et al. have reported that resveratrol acts as a phytoestrogen (i.e. activating the estrogen receptor) and decreases osteoporosis [43]. Moreover, resveratrol is one of the most potent Sirt-1 activators; through binding to a special binding site it induces a conformational change in Sirt-1, lowering the Km for both the acetylated substrate and NAD, thus resulting in increased enzymatic activity [18]. Sirt-1 facilitates the differentiation of MSCs to osteoblasts by directly regulating factors such as Runx2 and by modulation of nuclear receptor co-repressor NCoR and PPAR-γ.

 

 

Edited by ta5, 21 December 2014 - 04:53 PM.

[ta5]

...Try a less-acidic fruit with breakfast instead of orange juice....

 

Fruit acid is not acidic in the way you're suggesting. Citric acid is positive for bones. Anyway, the acid-ash theory is not justified:

 

Br. J. Nutr. Oct 2013

Nutritional disturbance in acid-base balance and osteoporosis: a hypothesis that disregards the essential homeostatic role of the kidney.

Bonjour JP

PMID: 23551968 

 

…experiments carried out among patients suffering from severe metabolic acidosis caused by renal insufficiency, or among healthy subjects made acidotic by administering NH4Cl, suggested the involvement of bone tissue in maintaining the acid–base balance. This hypothesis was later refuted on the basis of both theoretical and experimental arguments. Despite this rebuttal, the hypothesis was put forward that bone could play a buffering role, with the consideration that nutrients, particularly animal proteins with their acid load, could be a major cause of osteoporosis. Several recent human studies have shown that there is no relationship between nutritionally induced variations of urinary acid excretion and Ca balance, bone metabolism and the risk of osteoporotic fractures. Variations in human diets across a plausible range of intakes have been shown to have no effect on blood pH. Consistent with this lack of a mechanistic basis, long-term studies of alkalinising diets have shown no effect on the age-related change in bone fragility. Consequently, advocating the consumption of alkalinising foods or supplements and/or removing animal protein from the human diet is not justified by the evidence accumulated over the last several decades.

 

...Some food sources of vitamin K:  Green tea, taken hot and plain, Green Magma supplement, Fermented Green Prairie Grasses.   The last two are available from Swansons (I think)....

 

Green tea is good. You can find lots of positive articles on Vitamin K, and I think it's good, but here's a discouraging article that talks about the prescription dose used in Japan:

 

Nutr. Rev. Oct 2008

Update on the role of vitamin K in skeletal health.

Shea MK, Booth SL

PMID: 18826451

 

It was subsequently disclosed that a large unpublished surveillance study conducted in Japan (n > 3000) did not find a protective effect of MK-4 supplementation (45 mg/day) on bone loss and fracture in the elderly, and that inclusion of this study may have altered the results of the meta-analysis.81 More recently, two placebo-controlled studies with large sample sizes reported no protective effect of 45 mg/d of MK-4 on hip BMD.59,67 Prior to these two publications, the majority of MK-4 supplementation studies did not report hip BMD as an outcome (Table 2). Given the heterogeneous quality of the studies used and considering the null findings of more recent, larger, placebo-controlled trials and unpublished surveillance data, prior systematic reviews and meta-analyses may need to be revisited.

 

Do not take any phosphate drugs like Forteo...

 

Forteo (Teriparatide) is human parathyroid hormone (1-34). It's currently the only approved treatment that actually stimulates bone formation. Forteo combined with Prolia may be the most effective treatment known.

[niner]

Do not take any phosphate drugs like Forteo.  They leach material from the inside of your bones, so material accretes on the outside of the bones, making test results look better but with no increase in bone strength.  Bad news.  They make you bones weaker.  Look up Phossy Jaw or Fossy Jaw, a disease people used to get when they worked with phosphorus.  There is no lack of phosphorus in the Western diet, being abundant in wheat and soda.  You may know that Niner is a chemist who works in the pharmaceutical industry. 

 

 

Correction:  Niner is a chemist who used to work in the pharmaceutical industry.  I guess once you've worked in Big Pharma, you're forever tainted; permanently on the payroll, as it were.   It does at least mean I know what I'm talking about-  For example, Forteo's not even a bisphosphonate, much less a "phosphate".  Bisphosphonates do not "leach materials"; they reduce the rate of bone degrading processes.  Phosphorus doesn't have much in common with a bisphosphonate, beyond a relationship like that of table salt to chlorine gas.  The practice of medicine is about making risk/reward calculations.  In order to do that, you have to understand the risk of using a drug as well as the risk of not using, and the benefit that may come from using it.  If your estimations of any of those are wildly inaccurate, you will not have the outcome you'd like.

[Luminosity]

To Maggie67,

 

Teecino or Teechino  makes a good herbal coffee substitute.  I like Java flavor best.  Green tea extract does not agree with everyone.  Although it contains vitamin K, also green tea doesn't agree with everyone, especially some with bone or cartilage issues.  The caffeine or other compounds might be irritating.  Additionally, it's too "yin" for some people.  Try different vitamin K sources and see how you feel.  I think steamed greens have vitamin K?       

 

To ta5,

 

"Fruit acid is not acidic in the way you're suggesting. Citric acid is positive for bones. Anyway, the acid-ash theory is not justified:" -- ta5

 

Those are two different things.  I'm not an advocate of the acid-ash theory because we don't eat ashes.  Mainstream medical doctors and other practitioners have noticed that acidic foods and other acid-causing things are bad for bones, teeth, and cartilage.  Acid can eat away at those surfaces.  Since our bodies can only function with a narrow PH range in our bloodstreams, minerals can actually be leeched from our bones to alkalinize our blood.  The people who have the strongest teeth and bones in the world, in my opinion, Samoans, traditionally ate the diet with the lowest amount of acid: no caffeine, no sugar, not even any grain which is more acidic than taro and sweet potato.  You can't conclude that much from one journal article.  Was it statistically significant?  Was it influenced by Big Pharma? Paid for by them?  Was the methodology flawed?  Doctors and scientists don't make conclusions based on one article.     

 

"You can find lots of positive articles on Vitamin K, and I think it's good, but here's a

discouraging article that talks about the prescription dose used in Japan:" -- ta5

 

Vitamin K is good if the person finds a source and dose that agrees with them.   That can be tricky, that's why I gave some food sources too.  I'm sure it's mostly good, but everyone is different.  I've seen a lot of poorly designed studies on supplements, by design, I believe, so I wouldn't get too upset about that study.  Vitamin K is tricky, so perhaps they just didn't find the right doses or sources for each person, or maybe the Japanese diet is already high enough in Vitamin K.  

 

"Forteo (Teriparatide) is human parathyroid hormone (1-34). It's currently the only approved treatment that actually stimulates bone formation. Forteo combined with Prolia may be the most effective treatment known." -- ta5

 

My mistake.  I checked it and you are right about what Forteo is.  As far as it being the only approved treatment that stimulates bone formation, there are non-prescription supplements which do stimulate bone growth.  Phosphorus-based drugs are not effective in increasing bone strength.  Don't believe Big Pharma propaganda.  They control medical education, publishing and the government agencies charged with regulating them.  The following warnings about Prolia and Forteo are from the drug company websites: 

 

 

Prolia

 

Osteonecrosis of the Jaw (ONJ): ONJ, which can occur spontaneously, is generally associated with tooth extraction and/or local infection with delayed healing, and has been reported in patients receiving Prolia®. An oral exam should be performed by the prescriber prior to initiation of Prolia®. A dental examination with appropriate preventive dentistry should be considered prior to treatment in patients with risk factors for ONJ. Good oral hygiene practices should be maintained during treatment with Prolix®. 

 

 

Forteo

 

WARNING 

POTENTIAL RISK OF OSTEOSARCOMA

 

In male and female rats, teriparatide caused an increase in the incidence of osteosarcoma (a malignant bone tumor) that was dependent on dose and treatment duration. The effect was observed at systemic exposures to teriparatide ranging from 3 to 60 times the exposure in humans given a 20-mcg dose. Because of the uncertain relevance of the rat osteosarcoma finding to humans, prescribe FORTEO® only for patients for whom the potential benefits are considered to outweigh the potential risk. FORTEO should not be prescribed for patients who are at increased baseline risk for osteosarcoma (including those with Paget's disease of bone or unexplained elevations of alkaline phosphatase, pediatric and young adult patients with open epiphyses, or prior external beam or implant radiation therapy involving the skeleton) [see WARNINGS AND PRECAUTIONS, ADVERSE REACTIONS, and Nonclinical Toxicology].

 

 

 

 

Edited by Luminosity, 22 December 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[maggie67]

ta5-thanks so much for such great information- am i right in thinking to stick with the resveratrol and avoid the nicotinamide or am I oversimplifying or misunderstanding...both very possible! I am taking low dose estrogen and wondering will this enhance resv or prevent it being taken up by estrogen receptors preferentially-how many of these receptors can one female have? I realise the vitamin mk-4 is iffy for osteo but just artery cleansing would be sufficient if it in fact does help with this.Niner thanks for your very sane advice-I would probably go onto Forteo but my insurance won't pay for it until I've had  a fracture or two and it is prohibitively expensive for me for the 18 month protocol(with prolia even more so) so if I can't maintain or improve T-scores in 6 months will take a biphosphonate and hope for an uneventful outcome! Luminosity I believe only rats on very high doses  have had osteosarcomas so far  but am hoping abaloparatide may not have these effects-results have been far better than forteo-but fear the cost if it is approved will reflect this.

[blood]

Something to ponder: Elevated brain lesion volumes in calcium supplement users

[GhostBuster]

 

As far as I know BMD in itself is not a good measure whether the treatment of osteoporosis is succesful or not. The bone biophosphates grow is not the same that the body normally produces. So biophosphates will increase BMD, but they probably won't decrease fractures. While vitamin K supplementation probably won't increase BMD, but at the same time it will decrease fractures.

 

bisphosphonates have been shown to reduce fractures.

 

 

Systematic review...kind of hard to know if that review is any good or not. I suppose they haven't exclude all the studies that are sponsored in one way or another by pharmaceutical companies. There is so much corruption related to drug studies that in principle I would trust only independent studies to be reliable. All the same, according to that review the effect of the biophosphates is not that strong (for example in your case):

 

"Conclusion: [...] Evidence is low for benefits of treament for other populations, including men; for the benefits and risks of long-term treatment..."

[niner]

 

 

As far as I know BMD in itself is not a good measure whether the treatment of osteoporosis is succesful or not. The bone biophosphates grow is not the same that the body normally produces. So biophosphates will increase BMD, but they probably won't decrease fractures. While vitamin K supplementation probably won't increase BMD, but at the same time it will decrease fractures.

 

bisphosphonates have been shown to reduce fractures.

 

Systematic review...kind of hard to know if that review is any good or not. I suppose they haven't exclude all the studies that are sponsored in one way or another by pharmaceutical companies. There is so much corruption related to drug studies that in principle I would trust only independent studies to be reliable. All the same, according to that review the effect of the biophosphates is not that strong (for example in your case):

 

"Conclusion: [...] Evidence is low for benefits of treament for other populations, including men; for the benefits and risks of long-term treatment..."

 

This is the best science has to offer.  You don't have to believe it, but do you have any evidence for your claims?  "Evidence is low" means that there are not a large number of studies, not that it doesn't work.  It works fine; my BMD results and extensive clinical experience backs this up.

[zorba990]

What about silica?
( Edit: I see Niner did mention silica...).

There are many studies, here are a few...
http://onlinelibrary...MR.0301225/full
http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC2658806/

http://link.springer...7/s002230050010
These results, obtained through the measurements of axial and peripheral bones, warrant closer scrutiny in connection with the Si inhibitory effect on bone mass loss as well as the stimulatory effect on bone formation. Both actions, namely, inhibition of resorption and stimulation of formation, infer that Si may have a potential therapeutic application in the treatment of involutive osteoporosis

http://link.springer...0223-005-0288-0
Partial Prevention of Long-Term Femoral Bone Loss in Aged Ovariectomized Rats Supplemented with Choline-Stabilized Orthosilicic Acid

Edited by zorba990, 23 December 2014 - 05:03 AM.

[maggie67]

Thank-you Zorba-30mg of silica appears to help men,pre-menopausal women and post-menopausal women on HRT...and ofcourse rats though it doesn't appear to be very well absorbed.I was a little confused by the toxicity-it seems liquid biosil maybe safest and most effective.Was that your take or am I mistaken?  Niner, could you perhaps share your method of cycling Actonel over the long term i.e. how long term/short bursts then waiting how long for bone growth as it has given you great,uncomplicated results.I have heard some progressive endocrinologists have suggested this with Forteo-  3 months on then 3 months of actonel/or other biphosphonates then back on Forteo for 3 months etc for upto 2 years.I would be most interested and very grateful.

Edited by maggie67, 23 December 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Luminosity]

Maggie67, I sent you a private message.  There is probably an envelope icon on the upper right corner of your screen that leads you to your private messages.

 

Some forms of silica are hard to absorb.

 

 I tried them all and recommend a particular one, Solaray Bamboo extract, taken out of the capsule and mixed with a little water.  I took a half capsule a day because that was the right dose for me.    This info should be on my "Regrow Cartilage" blog post that I gave a link to.  

 

Jarrow and Biosil silica are made from sand.  I found them to be less helpful than the Solaray.  

 

I found capsules of raw Horsetail to be less helpful still.  Those aren't good for you; horsetail needs to be processed.  

 

I think it's Cola de Cabalo by Amazon Therapeutics, which is a processed wild horsetail extract.  It's good, especially if you need something topically to put on your teeth to remineralize or alkalize them after drinking something acidic, but I like Solaray Bamboo extract better overall  and it is easier to find.  

 

Swanson's store brand bamboo extract is similar to Solaray but has larger capsules and more inactive ingredients.  I prefer Solaray.     

Edited by Luminosity, 24 December 2014 - 04:22 AM.

[niner]

Thank-you Zorba-30mg of silica appears to help men,pre-menopausal women and post-menopausal women on HRT...and ofcourse rats though it doesn't appear to be very well absorbed.I was a little confused by the toxicity-it seems liquid biosil maybe safest and most effective.Was that your take or am I mistaken?  Niner, could you perhaps share your method of cycling Actonel over the long term i.e. how long term/short bursts then waiting how long for bone growth as it has given you great,uncomplicated results.I have heard some progressive endocrinologists have suggested this with Forteo-  3 months on then 3 months of actonel/or other biphosphonates then back on Forteo for 3 months etc for upto 2 years.I would be most interested and very grateful.

 

Hi maggie, BioSil has been demonstrated to be effective, and not surprisingly it's the most expensive silica supplement.  JarrowSil is less expensive and probably has similar bioavailability, though I don't know that has been proven.  When I posted my quite good BMD improvements, I was using BioSil and BoneUp, extra oil-formulated vitamin D, and oil-formulated K2-MK7.  My cycling experiment came later, and the results aren't in on that one yet.  Bisphosphonates are known to keep working for an extended period of time after cessation.  Actonel appears to drop off more rapidly than some of the others, although BMD improvements and fracture risk reductions remain after a one year off-period.  On the basis of this, a one year cycle seems reasonable for Actonel, though others like Fosamax may need a longer cycle, assuming that the idea is to ramp up the level of bone remodeling. 

 

As an aside, there is some suggestive evidence that bisphosphonates increase life expectancy rather significantly, over and above that due to fracture reduction.

[niner]

Some forms of silica are hard to absorb.

 

 I tried them all and recommend a particular one, Solaray Bamboo extract, taken out of the capsule and mixed with a little water.  I took a half capsule a day because that was the right dose for me.    This info should be on my "Regrow Cartilage" blog post that I gave a link to.  

 

Jarrow and Biosil silica are made from sand.  I found them to be less helpful than the Solaray. 

 

How did you determine that you were absorbing the bamboo extract, and not the other products?

 

JarrowSil and BioSil are not "made from sand", in the sense that they are just dumping sand in the bottle.  You seem to be implying that they couldn't possibly be bioavailable, since sand isn't.   Just about everything in the modern world is ultimately derived from dirt, petroleum, or seawater.  The difference between those raw materials and a cell phone lies in the large amount of chemical and physical processing that occurs.  Drugs are similar.

[sthira]

I think this might relevant to this discussion: reductions in physical activity may be the primary cause of degradation of human bone strength. We moderns are generally less active than our ancestors. Yet there are no structural reasons why we should have weaker bones than other primates. So increasing load-bearing exercise -- and not diet or quick-fix supplement tweaking -- may be the key to preventing fracture risks and osteoporosis in later life.

Published yesterday:

Gracility of the modern Homo sapiens skeleton is the result of decreased biomechanical loading. PNAS, December 22, 2014 DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1418646112

[maggie67]

The phase 3 trial results are out on abaloparatide-the synthetic peptide analogue of human parathyroid hormone-related protein-sorry I can't seem to post them. For anyone interested they are on globalnewswire.com/2014/12/22. They appear to say reductions in vertebral fracture was 83% and non-vertebral fractures 43%.They also may be sold via a transdermal patch which would alleviate the injections and temperature problems of teriparatide-Forteo..Niner that is a bonus on possible life extension! I hope you have maintained/improved your gains-the next DEXA will be very interesting! Sthira-thanks for that-I do exercise but I am sure nowhere near the high intensity capacity of cavemen or even your average chimpanzee.

[aribadabar]

Niner, what is your take on strontium supplementation on bone health?

[niner]

Niner, what is your take on strontium supplementation on bone health?

 

It's interesting in that it increases bone creation as well as decreasing bone resorption.  Strontium ranelate is (or was) an approved drug in some countries, though not the US.  When used in fairly large doses (2g/d) it has significant effects on the usual markers, so it seems to work, but recently its use has been curtailed due to an association with increased MI.   You can buy strontium citrate as a supplement, and it has been shown to get into bones.  It's probably beneficial, although I don't have any data on it.  Whether or not it shares the ranelate's heart issues is a question.

[ta5]

ta5-thanks so much for such great information- am i right in thinking to stick with the resveratrol and avoid the nicotinamide or am I oversimplifying or misunderstanding...both very possible! I am taking low dose estrogen and wondering will this enhance resv or prevent it being taken up by estrogen receptors preferentially-how many of these receptors can one female have? I realise the vitamin mk-4 is iffy for osteo but just artery cleansing would be sufficient if it in fact does help with this.Niner thanks for your very sane advice-I would probably go onto Forteo but my insurance won't pay for it until I've had  a fracture or two and it is prohibitively expensive for me for the 18 month protocol(with prolia even more so) so if I can't maintain or improve T-scores in 6 months will take a biphosphonate and hope for an uneventful outcome! Luminosity I believe only rats on very high doses  have had osteosarcomas so far  but am hoping abaloparatide may not have these effects-results have been far better than forteo-but fear the cost if it is approved will reflect this.

 

Maggie, I'm very curious about your estrogen therapy. I'm pretty ignorant about HRT...

 

How do you feel about the cancer, cvd, and other risks?

Besides using a low dose, did/do you do anything else specifically to manage those risks? 

How did you decide on a dose/level? Did you aim to bring your levels half-way back up to pre-menopausal levels, for example? 

Do you take a mix of several hormones?

 

Thanks.

 

And, this question is for anyone:

 

Which is safer, Prolia or biphosphonates?

My impression is that, with what is known now, Prolia is safer, but it hasn't been around as long and studied as extensively, so there's slightly more uncertainty. Or, maybe the safety is about the same and I have just not heard as much concerns about it because it's newer.

[maggie67]

ta5-I had a total hysterectomy about 20 years ago and started estrogen only then.I gradually wound down the dose mostly depending on how I felt.I have always also taken a Life Ex supp which has DIM and 13C which supposedly transforms estrodial into a weaker form estriol.Some researchers largely discount the large Womens Health  study which was done with oral premarin in favour of transdermal bioidentical estrogen as a safer alternative which may actually be protective against breast cancer ,heart disease but still a slightly elevated risk of stroke-I hope they are right and take other supps to try to counter embolism risk.I go by the theory that if you look and feel better you may be better-hardly scientific! I believe both Prolia and biphosphonates are mostly safe for most people-they both have small risk of jaw necrosis,atypical fracture and Prolia nasty infections.One endo told me that osteoporosis was 95% a disease of high bone turnover but in 5% of people it is a disease of low bone turnover and it is these 5% who should not be on bone resorption drugs at all but only on something like Forteo so it makes sense to have tests like Ntx etc to ensure which category you are in before taking Prolia or biphosphonates and retesting some months later to see how you are responding.

[ta5]

Thanks Maggie, that's interesting. I was not aware of the Ntx test, or that some people display low bone turnover. 

 

Have you tested your hormone levels? Do you know where they are now relative to your past levels, or to normal pre-menopausal averages? 

 

Thanks.

 

[maggie67]

ta5-I have only done the Ntx and BSAP tests for the first time as I was recently diagnosed with osteoporosis-I am in the 95% with high bone turnover but have no earlier results for comparison.I will retest  and decide my options depending on maintaining,improving or worsening of scores.A full hormone profile would be ideal but my insurance won't co-pay for this - I am somewhat financially constrained - but for others this would seem the best way to proceed.

[jjnz]

I have been dx'd with severe osteoporosis (-4.5 wards/hips) -3.5 in lumbar spine, fine in wrists.
Bit odd as I'm 45/male and all of my tests are within range.

I'm using nicotinimide riboside, pterostillbene and quercitin to activate sirt1, k2 (mk4( but only just read above unpublished study which is diaapointing), also taking horsetail, vit D 50k ui/mth, boron and creatine. I'm ingesting around 1200mg of calcium/day and using 15-30hz vibration therapy (linear 1mm amplitude =1-2g's) 2 mins 3 x /day.I'm also walking 45 mins/day, often on an incline. (Nr and creation make this exercise possible)
My endocrinologist thinks my diet never had enough calcium because I didn't drink much milk, I believe he is incorrect. I ate plenty of greens,plenty of ice cream, cheese and sardines etc.

I've had poor health in the last 2 years, fatigue, early symptoms of sjogrens and rheumatoid arthritis but lab results are negative, crp is 0.5 !

Yet endo thinks I didn't get enough milk .
Has anyone tried collagen supplements?

Edited by jjnz, 29 October 2016 - 08:56 AM.