8 replies to this topic

[destrekor]

Is there anything of the sort?

 

I'm on Wellbutrin and Zoloft, and have been trialing a few different nootropic add-ons. Specifically: Tianeptine, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Fasoracetam, Coluracetam, Noopept, and sometimes Sunifiram.

 

After typing that all out, I think I need to drop a few racetams. lol

 

 

Anyhow, what I am really curious about is the nAChR antagonist activity of bupropion, and if it is the causative agent behind the increase in persistent neck aches I've had lately. 

 

I was giving AlphaGPC a trial and recently ran out, though I have Nootrobox's Rise Mk 2 on the way (finally, after delays). I'm curious about making my own stack that mimics Rise, but for now want to give the pre-measured stack a go and see how the Bacopa, Rhodiola, and AlphaGPC will combine with what I am taking, and that hopefully will serve as a good acetylcholine booster. 

 

But I don't know if I just have too much ACh free in the brain, or if some of the noots are increasing ACh production yet I am unable to utilize as much due to the inhibition of one of the nACh receptors, or if it's still just not enough ACh in total? I mean, I don't know if I can boost ACh uptake and thus help even out ACh levels if that is the cause, or if simply supplementing more choline is actually the answer for some reason. 

 

I've heard some things, like the Colu and Faso, are High-Affinity Choline Uptake Enhancers (HACU), but I believe this is distinctly different from Acetylcholine Uptake Enhancers.

[destrekor]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

I've recently experimented with adding piracetam and it might have helped somewhat, but I honestly didn't pay enough attention and at times still noted a neck ache or stiff neck. 

 

I have also found that perhaps I just need to drop the amount of coluracetam I take. I usually average about 16mg TID from sublingual tincture. I also take 15mg fasoracetam TID from tincture.

 

All current dosing, to help:

300mg Bupropion, OD

100mg sertraline, OD 

~1000mg aniracetam, TID, oral

~200mg oxiracetam, TID, oral

12.5-20mg+ tianeptine, TID, tincture

~20mg noopept, TID, tincture

5mg sunifiram, TID, tincture

~16mg coluracetam, TID, tincture

15mg fasoracetam, TID, tincture

 

RISE stack:

300mg bacopa monnieri 

300mg rhodiola rosea

300mg alpha-gpc (50%)

I've been trialing that dose twice daily. Bottle states 2 caps is one dose, and is designed as a monthly supply of 60 caps. I felt the dose was too low bacopa and rhodiola. The previous Rise version had 300mg bacopa per cap and was designed to be taken twice daily, at once or spread out. I'm currently turning a 30 day supply into a 15 day, and I had previously calculated the cost to supply myself to be far cheaper if I cap the same stack, which I am certainly planning on doing rather soon. 

 

I hope to ascertain whether the alpha-gpc needs to go, or if there is something else that definitely has to go or otherwise get dropped in dosage.

 

I also, unfortunately, have never truly individually tested most of these doses, but have have been rather fond of the end results. I am not sure on the oxi's importance here, I might just actually cut it out entirely and see how I respond. 

[resveratrol_guy]

My 2 cents is that racetams are not the way to go unless you have only a few months to live. There are simply too many crash-and-burn threads here on Longecity regarding the aftereffects of their use. I have yet to find any of them which doesn't have this irreversible burnout effect. That doesn't mean one does not exist, and I'd be thrilled to find evidence, but I don't have it. Theoretically, choline or curcumin supplementation would alleviate the problem if coadministered in sufficiently high doses, but I admit that that's just common sense on my part, which is rarely a good intuitive model for predictions in neurology. BTW based on my reading, no one in this forum seems to agree as to why it occurs. The most compelling theory I read was that racetams cause the migration of choline to the prefrontal cortex from anterior structures, eventually starving the latter of vital neurotransmitters. Who knows.

 

BTW for choline, I use free range organic eggs. Much cheaper than AlphaGPC, and nutritionally rich. I doubt you could oversupply acetylcholine by eating them, either, as you'd get full too quickly.

 

Bottom line: if all you have is a neck ache, you might consider getting an MRI with contrast to make sure it's something benign, which it probably is. (BTW stiff neck is a classic sign of various infections, although I doubt that applies in your case.) But I wouldn't go off the deep end with supplements more appropriate to people in need of cognitive repair. If you're cognitively healthy, I would suggest reading up on ways to prevent dementia, e.g. ketogenic diet, lipidated curcumin, various mushroom supplements, optimal vitamin and mineral intakes, exercise, etc.

 

Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 July 2015 - 02:54 AM.

[Flex]

Neckache could also be caused by too much acetylcholine (Muscarinic receptors ?) or too low dopamine respectively. I get it sometimes from Huperzin a.

In this case would be more acetylcholine contraindicated.

 

You could be fine with just the mao inhibiting properties of Rhodiola Rosea(relative stronger) and/or curcumin(weaker), though it might potentiate the effects of Wellbutrin too much. I´m not sure.

If I´m right, then You dont need any racetams for that purpose.

 

I second the opinion of resveratrol_guy, the reports of brain fog caused by racetam are somewhere on longecity. They are actually rare but present.

Theres one study that states an increase of oxidative stress caused by Piracetam and Vinpocetine

http://www.longecity...nd-vinpocetine/

 

Btw: HACU do decrease acetylcholine levels, if I´m not mistaken but better look on Your own.

[resveratrol_guy]

I second the opinion of resveratrol_guy, the reports of brain fog caused by racetam are somewhere on longecity. They are actually rare but present.

 

Rare? I'm not sure. AFAIK there's no good data on the percentage of racetam users who burn out. I should have mentioned that this burnout occurs only after several months based on the anecdotes here. So it's possible to have a huge number of positive reports relative to negative ones simply because the acute effects are almost always positive or neutral. This might be OK if a period of nonuse could restore sensitivity, but it appears to cause permanent damage somehow, perhaps mediated by receptor tolerance. I hope there's at least one racetam which doesn't do this, but I have no such data. If anyone does, it would be good to see. Even a plateauing of effect after a certain period of time, as opposed to irreversible densensitization or damage, would be great.

[destrekor]

 

I second the opinion of resveratrol_guy, the reports of brain fog caused by racetam are somewhere on longecity. They are actually rare but present.

 

Rare? I'm not sure. AFAIK there's no good data on the percentage of racetam users who burn out. I should have mentioned that this burnout occurs only after several months based on the anecdotes here. So it's possible to have a huge number of positive reports relative to negative ones simply because the acute effects are almost always positive or neutral. This might be OK if a period of nonuse could restore sensitivity, but it appears to cause permanent damage somehow, perhaps mediated by receptor tolerance. I hope there's at least one racetam which doesn't do this, but I have no such data. If anyone does, it would be good to see. Even a plateauing of effect after a certain period of time, as opposed to irreversible densensitization or damage, would be great.

 

 

I would like to see the reports you have found that relate this specifically to racetams. And, especially, which ones they involve. 

 

I haven't seen any other than some reports from stuff like phenibut and possibly sunifiram (which I am not adverse to quitting, and why I am sticking to a low dose as it is). Not all racetams are as well studied or documented, and some are indeed questionable, thus why I never bothered tried nefiracetam. There are a lot of derivatives developed in research but not all of them deserve to see the light of day, but a few have some promising research and those get cooked up and sold online. 

 

Piracetam is actually prescribed in some places, for long-term use, and I haven't heard of burn out or even desensitization for that one. The various research variants that have been developed since piracetam, it could happen, sure. 

But I don't think many of the cases of burn out are from racetams, I think they are from the host of other chemicals that people try, some to essentially chase highs like phenibut. (and a chief reason I am staying away from phenibut.. I have an addictive personality, I don't need to mess with that. I got in trouble with the JWH powders for a spell, and while that is rather different, the idea is the same)

[Flex]

Someone made a thread:

http://www.longecity...ts-ill-effects/

[resveratrol_guy]

I'm happy that we now have a thread for debugging the racetams! Hopefully future problems will receive more scrutiny so that perhaps we can figure out how to avoid them. After all, it's acute effects are fantastic among those who respond to it, if the anecdotes are accurate.

 

Here are a few Longecity threads dealing with the adverse long term effects: 1, 2, and 3. There are plenty of other threads dealing with acute and generally less severe problems.

 

[BlueCloud]

Here's my take : whatever issues some may have with piracetam is 99% related to the high doses they are taking. I 've been taking piracetam for years now, with a prescription from my psychiatrist, and I never went over 1600mg per day, usually I stick to 800mg. The recommended dosage are officialy a maximum of 2800 mg per day ( 3 x 800mg ).

I also cycle it regularly and take sometimes longer breaks ( a few weeks ).

It's still working as efficiently as the first day I took it.

 

Contrary to what some may think ( especially in the US, since it's never been officialy available there and is sold as a supplement, therefore giving the impression that it is some sort of experimental substance ) , piracetam is an old drug that have been prescribed since the seventies in europe, especially in geriatric medicine. 

 

I believe the megadoses that have been advised on this forum are doing more harm than good. I see insane amounts ( like 6g per day ) being advised here as "minimum dosage"...

 

Edited by BlueCloud, 12 August 2015 - 10:25 PM.