19 replies to this topic

[Laz34]

Hello, I'm not new in the world of nootropics and supplements and when it takes to sleep quality, I automatically think about L-Tryptophan, Melatonin, Zinc, Magnesium citrate, GABA, Phenibut etc.

 

The fact is that every single supplement/nootropic that I tried has never helped me to improve substantially my sleep quality.

 

Quick recap: one year ago I had a completely screwed up circadian rhythm. I quickly resolved it by following a cyclical ketogenic diet, while taking magnesium citrate 500mg + melatonin 1mg + agomelatine 25mg + krill oil 1g before bed, and by waking myself up talking Bulletproof Coffee + Piracetam 2400 mg + Vitamin D 10,000 IU + krill oil 1g.

 

After one month I had to stop taking agomelatine because it caused a drug hepatitis (adverse reaction).

 

Yes, I had successfully stabilized my circadian rythm, but the sleep quality wasn't good. I was waking up in the middle of the night at 3:00 - 4:00 a.m. and I started to think about a cortisol related problem (adrenal fatigue).

 

I tried to stop taking melatonin, replacing it with tryptophan in order to encourage the endogenous production of melatonin for different months. The result has been disappointing: more time in order to fall asleep (even more than one hour on certain days) and the usual waking up at 4 a.m. . I tried various dosages from 500mg to 1,5g.

I even tried Phenibut from 300mg to 1g. Nothing happened. Maybe I was falling asleep quicker, but the day after I was groggy.

 

Some weeks ago I started to take a particular melatonin brand with zinc. No substantial changes recorded.

 

Yesterday I've received my Fitbit Charge HR, and I've used it to record the sleep quality (I've setted it on sensitive in order to record all the unwanted motions). The result is in the attached image.

 

The stack that I took before the recorded night was: 1mg of melatonin with zinc (8,7mg) and selenium (50mcg) + 500mg magnesium citrate + 1g krill oil + 1 capsule of policosanol.

 

9 hours lying in bed => 3 hours and half of proper sleep. Awful.

 

I tried various tecniques of carb refeeds, straight keto etc.

 

My energy levels are decent trough the day thanks to the keto diet. It's not a diet related problem.

 

I do weights lifting 3 times per week. Sleeping well is crucial for me in order to put on muscle mass.

 

I have to say that I have been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. Many Aspergers have sleep related problems because they're hyper-sensitive to ambiental noises and stimuli. I think that Neurofeedback in my case could be a good therapy in order to learn to induce alpha waves before sleeping. But here in Italy, where I live, it's not a well known therapy.

 

Any suggestion is highly appreciated.

 

Sorry for my english, it's not my main language.

EDIT. Forgot to say that my sleep quality, before adopting a ketogenic diet and resetting circadian rhythm, was even worse.

Attached Files

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Edited by Laz34, 18 July 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[ta5]

• Light therapy (30-60 min, first thing in the morning, 10000 lux @ 1 foot)
• Reduced light in the evening
• No light at night - pitch black
• Methylcobalamin

The light therapy will help turn off your Melatonin production, making you more awake, and that then will help you to be sleepy 16 hours later. Pick whatever time you want to get up (same time every day), set your alarm, and then get up and sit in front of the light. You can even take a nap later if you want, and probably still be sleepy at bedtime.

 

Methylcobalamin should help sensitize your eyes to light, producing less melatonin during daylight, and more melatonin during dark. 

 

After you give the above a good go, a serious try, then you might try...

• Higher-dose Melatonin - I used to think Melatonin didn't work. Now I take time-release 10mg and it's surprisingly good for me. This makes it so I can skip the light therapy more often. But, nothing compares to light therapy. The studies on the wide range of benefits and protective effects from melatonin, especially neuroprotection, are impressive. And, there are new studies every day. 
• Glycine - There are studies on this showing improved sleep quality, but I haven't read anyone raving about it. I take a few grams/day but I can't say it's helping my sleep.
• Might as well take a B-Complex to get some B6 and the others, but make sure the B12 is Methylcobalamin

As far as some of the other things you mentioned...

• I hope you have tested your Vitamin D levels, otherwise 10000 IU could be dangerous for your long term health. I get my Vitamin D levels tested a couple times per year, I only need 1000-2000 IU in winter, and now during summer I take only 400IU. 
• Don't take Phenibut.
• Be wary of coffee, in some people it can negatively affect sleep at low doses even when only taken in the morning.

[Laz34]

 

• Light therapy (30-60 min, first thing in the morning, 10000 lux @ 1 foot)
• Reduced light in the evening
• No light at night - pitch black
• Methylcobalamin

The light therapy will help turn off your Melatonin production, making you more awake, and that then will help you to be sleepy 16 hours later. Pick whatever time you want to get up (same time every day), set your alarm, and then get up and sit in front of the light. You can even take a nap later if you want, and probably still be sleepy at bedtime.

 

Methylcobalamin should help sensitize your eyes to light, producing less melatonin during daylight, and more melatonin during dark. 

 

After you give the above a good go, a serious try, then you might try...

• Higher-dose Melatonin - I used to think Melatonin didn't work. Now I take time-release 10mg and it's surprisingly good for me. This makes it so I can skip the light therapy more often. But, nothing compares to light therapy. The studies on the wide range of benefits and protective effects from melatonin, especially neuroprotection, are impressive. And, there are new studies every day. 
• Glycine - There are studies on this showing improved sleep quality, but I haven't read anyone raving about it. I take a few grams/day but I can't say it's helping my sleep.
• Might as well take a B-Complex to get some B6 and the others, but make sure the B12 is Methylcobalamin

As far as some of the other things you mentioned...

• I hope you have tested your Vitamin D levels, otherwise 10000 IU could be dangerous for your long term health. I get my Vitamin D levels tested a couple times per year, I only need 1000-2000 IU in winter, and now during summer I take only 400IU. 
• Don't take Phenibut.
• Be wary of coffee, in some people it can negatively affect sleep at low doses even when only taken in the morning.

 

I forgot to say that I do use blue blocking glasses during evening in order to don't let the blue lights stop the melatonin endogenous production.

 

I have an homemade SAD light and I've used it to fix the circadian rhythm along the supplements that I mentioned. I stopped using it as the circadian rhythm was fixed, because it is big and unwieldy, but I'll give it another try.

 

My vitamin D levels was extremely low, that dosage was functional. Now I've stopped taking it, since my levels are high and it's summer.

 

Higher doses of melatonin make me dizzy during the day. I've experimented even with 10mg. 1mg is fine in order to give an input and fall asleep. But then I can't maintain a good sleep without interruptions for 8 hours straight.

 

I get a lot of B12 from eggs and red meat. Keto diets usually don't develop B complex deficiencies. I will try anyway. I'll do some researches about Glycine as well.

 

Thank you for your suggestions.

[Baten]

Something in the 100-200 micronized resveratrol dissolved in protein powder, before sleep, makes me sleep very very well. Waking up feeling very refreshed.

[Laz34]

Something in the 100-200 micronized resveratrol dissolved in protein powder, before sleep, makes me sleep very very well. Waking up feeling very refreshed.

That's an interesting but not that cheap solution (149€ x100g on bulk powders, lol). Need to know more about the properties.

 

You meant 100-200mg, right?

[Baten]

 

Something in the 100-200 micronized resveratrol dissolved in protein powder, before sleep, makes me sleep very very well. Waking up feeling very refreshed.

That's an interesting but not that cheap solution (149€ x100g on bulk powders, lol). Need to know more about the properties.

 

You meant 100-200mg, right?

 

 

Miligrams yes, my bad. And definitely not cheap, no. I took it for its antioxidant properties and was pleasantly surprised with its effects on sleep when taking it at bed time. I woke up an hour earlier than usual, and more refreshed as usual (possible needing less sleep, too). I gave my friend some to try and said she felt a difference too. But then again this is with people who usually sleep pretty well, I can't guarantee it'll work for someone with issues sleeping. But it sure seems worth a try.

 

Honestly I'm not taking it daily since it would be too expensive, but I take some now and then and it works pretty well. I bought 25g from pureandhealthy or something if I recall correctly and it lasted ages at the rate I consumed it.

[Aurel]

I have sleeping problems for years. Tried many things: Melatonin, VitD (is in my stack anyway), blue filters, light therapy etc. My cyrcadian rythm was (or is?) way of.

 

Interesting enough last night I had the best sleep since years. Went to bed at 11pm and woke up at 9am (had some light wake ups between 6am until 9am when I convinced myself to sleep longer). At 11pm I was dead tired so I could not resist going not to sleep altough it was very unusual for me.

 

What did I do different? The first time in my life I took 4,8g Piracetam with 10mg of Noopept. Maybe it helps you? I read a few times that Noopept helps people sleep. Could have been a coincidence of course. I try it again today.

 

Good luck!

[Laz34]

I have sleeping problems for years. Tried many things: Melatonin, VitD (is in my stack anyway), blue filters, light therapy etc. My cyrcadian rythm was (or is?) way of.

 

Interesting enough last night I had the best sleep since years. Went to bed at 11pm and woke up at 9am (had some light wake ups between 6am until 9am when I convinced myself to sleep longer). At 11pm I was dead tired so I could not resist going not to sleep altough it was very unusual for me.

 

What did I do different? The first time in my life I took 4,8g Piracetam with 10mg of Noopept. Maybe it helps you? I read a few times that Noopept helps people sleep. Could have been a coincidence of course. I try it again today.

 

Good luck!

 

Your readings was about Noopept alone or in combination with Piracetam?

 

Thank you for the hint anyway. 

[Aurel]

Noopept alone seems to help people sleep in some cases. Maybe worth a try as I know how you feel.

[Laz34]

Anyway it's not clear how Noopept could improve sleep quality, since it leads (according to the examine.com page) to an increase of beta waves. You mean that by taking it in the morning for improving concentration and mental activity, it leads then to an increased sleep demand in the evening, resulting in a higher quality sleep? So it's an indirect effect, right?

 

Edit. The dosage is clear, but does it need some kind of cycling in order to avoid homeostasis? 

Edited by Laz34, 18 July 2015 - 08:45 PM.

[Aurel]

Sorry, I can not help you with the biochemistry. As far as I know the complete mechanisms of noopept are not totally understood. I just want to say that I read in different user logs here on longecity that some people use noopept in the evening because it helps them to fall asleep (like it did for me yesterday - maybe).

[Laz34]

Sorry, I can not help you with the biochemistry. As far as I know the complete mechanisms of noopept are not totally understood. I just want to say that I read in different user logs here on longecity that some people use noopept in the evening because it helps them to fall asleep (like it did for me yesterday - maybe).

Ok, so you used it in the evening. 

 

I'll give it a try. If it goes bad I'll just save it for those mornings when I need to be more focused. 

 

Edit. Let me know how it goes this night with noopept. If you sleep well again, I doubt that is a coincidence. 

Edited by Laz34, 18 July 2015 - 08:54 PM.

[MoreNowAgain]

http://nutritionfact...before-bedtime/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21669584

 

 

 

 

You can try eating 2 kiwi's 1 hour before bed time. I find that it helps me a lot.

 

I never go without eating 2 kiwi's before bed, so I always have an abundance of kiwi's.

 

 

 

Have you tried using an essential oil diffuser, with lavender? I find that helps me feel more relaxed so I can drift off to sleep quicker.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Laz34]

http://nutritionfact...before-bedtime/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21669584

 

 

 

 

You can try eating 2 kiwi's 1 hour before bed time. I find that it helps me a lot.

 

I never go without eating 2 kiwi's before bed, so I always have an abundance of kiwi's.

 

 

 

Have you tried using an essential oil diffuser, with lavender? I find that helps me feel more relaxed so I can drift off to sleep quicker.

Really not a keto-friendly solution but it's equally interesting. Maybe I'll try to fit them in my daily carbs, staying under 25g of net carbs. 

[Aurel]

Ok, the effect continued last night (altough I could not fall asleep that easy as there was a loud party nearby), the sleep was very good. I have to add that I not only tool Pira and Noopept but also vitamins (LEFs Two per day), Sage extract pills (for sweating; i have found no report on increased sleep) and fish oil.

[drg]

valerian
hops
passionflower
lemon balm
---
they are all in this supplement "Swiss natural solutions sleep" I think it is modestly helpful...... but to be honest the only way i get any sleep is with xanax. I got a bit of the autism too, not too much but anyways....

[Flex]

Try Lavender tea or Lemon balm. It sounds weak but it worked for me in contrast to valerian, which is weak like sweets for me.

Antihistamines like Mirtazapine could also help but it will make You for the first 1-3 weeks groggy, if You arent used to them.

Trazodone could be another alternative.

 

I dont know much about cicardian rhythm, so I cant say much about it.

Perhaps beeing awake for 24 hours to try to adjust it ?

[gamesguru]

You can try eating 2 kiwi's 1 hour before bed time. I find that it helps me a lot.

 

I never go without eating 2 kiwi's before bed, so I always have an abundance of kiwi's.

 

Try this, other mindful and common sense food choices, and exercise early in the day.  In the long term, it will kick the shit out of any melatonin+ GABA agonist stack, both in safety and efficacy.

[Aurel]

I just wanted to confirm that noopept knocks me out. Can not take it in daytime. This is of course not what most other people get from it (could even be related to some form of damage? who knows).

 

In two weeks I will get a mobile sleeping laboratory to my home. Maybe this would be something for you? A good checkup.

[nittybitty]

I use a Source Naturals product that knocks me out - I couldn't imagine taking 2 of these and not getting a pretty deep night's sleep - I usually take 1/2 of one if I need it:

 

 

Magnesium (as magnesium chelate) 300 mg 75% Sodium 5 mg <1% GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) 500 mg † Taurine 300 mg † Glycine 250 mg † Passionflower Leaf and Flower 200 mg † Chamomile Flower Extract 100 mg † Skullcap Aerial Parts 70 mg † Lemon Balm Aerial Parts 60 mg † Melatonin 5 mg †