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brain fog, bad fatigue, please help


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#121 purerealm

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 03:08 AM

alright just got the results back. two things were slightly out of range
tsh was .4L for a range of .5-3.0L

cortisol evening and night were also off .3L for .6-1.9
and .1L for .4-1.0

But I took evening sample at 10:20pm and night at 2:20 am (my day cycle starts at 10:45 am and I sleep at around 2:25am, so i'm concerned that perhaps my cortisol cycle is on a normal circadian rhythm and perhaps they're only off due to times of my taking of sample)

been taking dried adrenal stuff, panax ginseng, licorice, multivit, and some other stuff, not sure what's going to happen.

#122 aaron

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 08:25 AM

alright just got the results back. two things were slightly out of range
tsh was .4L for a range of .5-3.0L

That's interesting. The low TSH might indicate that you're hypopituitary, though that's unlikely if your T3 and T4 are normal. Have you ever had a serum ACTH or ACTH stim test performed? Has your TSH been tested previously?

cortisol evening and night were also off .3L for .6-1.9
and .1L for .4-1.0

But I took evening sample at 10:20pm and night at 2:20 am (my day cycle starts at 10:45 am and I sleep at around 2:25am, so i'm concerned that perhaps my cortisol cycle is on a normal circadian rhythm and perhaps they're only off due to times of my taking of sample)

That's strong evidence of adrenal fatigue. I think you did well to take the samples when you did. When I did the test, I took the samples at the listed times, even though they didn't reflect my usual sleep pattern; that's probably why the cortisol reading for my morning sample was so much lower than for the noon one (cortisol is normally highest when you wake up).

Would you please list the complete test results? Thanks.

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#123 aaron

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Posted 13 September 2008 - 10:10 PM

You might want to join the Natural Thyroid Hormone ADRENALS group and post your full results there. The moderator, Val, has many years of experience with diagnosing and treating adrenal fatigue, hypothyroidism, and other hormonal imbalances.

#124 aaron

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Posted 19 September 2008 - 09:03 PM

been taking dried adrenal stuff, panax ginseng, licorice, multivit, and some other stuff, not sure what's going to happen.

Any updates? I recommend that you post your full test results here and/or on the mailing list I mentioned. Although the licorice may help slightly, you're likely to get much greater benefits from taking Isocort or hydrocortisone.

#125 wiserd

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Posted 25 September 2008 - 05:40 AM

Many viruses, such as HCV or CMV cause brain fog. Some pathogens also have neurological effects. I'm not saying that you have HCV, but it's possible you contracted a pathogen, perhaps? About half the population has CMV, but only a small minority experience neurological problems from it.

Consider trying pau d'arco tea and resveratrol, both of which are wonderful broad-spectrum anti-virals and anti-microbials. Pau d'arco doesn't dissolve easily in water so you'll need to get an alcohol or glycerin tincture to get a decent dose, not the sawdust many places try to sell you. Take it with a pau d'arco powdered extract.

Try to eat healthy. Going back to vegetarianism is good, since if you do have some kind of brain inflammation you'll be more susceptible to prion infections from meat. Consider juicing, perhaps? I blend up purple cabbage, strain out the solids, mix with v-gest or some other digestive enzymes to remove the raffinose (or you'll get horrid gas pains) and freeze. An melted ice cube every few hours is very helpful. It has lots of nutrients including some kind of adenosyl methionine which I can't remember offhand.

Serrapeptase and fibrinectin may be good to take with the pau d'arco (or any antibiotics for that matter) if it turns out that you have some kind of microbial infection since they break up biofilms and help thin the blood. Some of your body's defenses can also end up protecting pathogens from antibiotics.

For stress; get aerobic exercise, a tiny amount of b-vitamin complex in regular doses ( I break the pills up and take a paint fleck's worth every few hours. Does wonders for stress ) and some vitamin C.
If your problem is caused by a herpatic virus like CMV you may experience a bad reaction to high-arginine foods like large amounts of cocoa without some lysine to balance it.

I've had both ADD and brain fog in the past, though the doctors say I'm healthy as a horse. I do pretty well now most days now.

Good luck!!

#126 purerealm

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Posted 28 September 2008 - 09:09 PM

Here are my complete test results
[test] [value] [test range]
Estradiol 1.0 .5-2.2 (in range)
progesterone 25 12-100
testosterone 128 44-148
dheas 15.6 2-23
cortisol morning 6.1 3.7-9.5
cortisol noon 2 1.2-3
cortisol evening .3 .6-1.9 (out of range)
cortisol night .1 .4-1 (out of range)
free t4 1.7 .7-2.5
free t3 3.5 2.5-6.5
tsh .4 .5-3 (out range)
tpo 29 0-150

However lately I've had less confidence in the significance of this test as I've also been somewhat depressed and I figure that depression could be the root cause behind the adrenal fatigue. Also explains the problems concentrating, decreased enjoyment in activities, and fatigue. Not sure what to do at the moment but I will go to the doctor again and see if there's anything he can do. I've stopped taking the supplements because they didn't make me feel better, but I will look into the yahoo group in a bit. Appreciate all the help though

#127 aaron

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Posted 29 September 2008 - 12:00 AM

Thanks for posting your results. As I interpret them:
  • your sex hormones are okay
  • your adrenals are fatigued (not only are two measurements below range, but your first measurement should be near the top of the range; lab ranges tend to be too broad)
  • you're hypothyroid; free T3 should be higher and free T4 looks a bit high
T3 is the active thyroid hormone; it gives you energy and increases your metabolism. T4 is a storage hormone that is converted to T3 as needed. Strangely, despite being deficient in T3, your TSH is low; normally, the pituitary produces more TSH to stimulate the thyroid when T3 is low. That could mean that you're hypopituitary. Useful tests for hypopituitarism include ACTH, LH, GH, FSH.

Incidentally, your body has trouble getting T3 into the cells when cortisol is low. That's one of the links between adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism.

Depression is very common among people who are hypothyroid. Also, feeling exhausted and awful all the time will wear down anyone's spirits over time. It's easy to blame yourself for being lazy, unmotivated, etc. when you look normal and there's no identifiable physical ailment.

Tracking your temperature is a good way to assess adrenal/thyroid problems.

Posting your results to the NTH-Adrenals list is a good idea. Val has a lot more experience with this hormonal stuff than I do. Good luck; you may be closer to recovery than you think.

#128 burnout

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 03:15 AM

I just registered after reading this thread. I've experienced very similar things to all that you've described purerealm, and they've been an increasing problem for about seven or eight years now. It's kind of nice to hear other people talking about the same kind of experience, I've been at a loss trying to understand what the hell is wrong with me because the things I have experienced don't quite fit with just depression. I never really get sad for example, although as a consequence of having such a dysfunctional brain I *have* become a pretty downbeat person. I've been diagnosed with depression and treated unsuccessfully, similar thing with ADHD. Both of those descriptions have a number of overlaps with whatever is wrong with me, but don't quite match up.

Aaron thank you very much for the information. Adrenal exhaustion sounds like it makes an awful lot of sense, and I'm surprised I haven't considered it before because over the years I've spent untold hours wracking my brain and plundering the internet trying to find a description that matches what is wrong with me. I'm too tired to type out in detail all the reasons why I say that, but it might be a good fit for a whole bunch of symptoms that have seemed kind of unrelated. Very briefly and in no real order: orthostatic hypotension has been an issue for years, Strattera made things better at first but then gradually much worse over time, often bad reactions to caffeine or anything that gives me an adrenaline rush, I'm pretty sure that my decline was at least amplified by a huge uptake of cigarettes and coffee years ago as they usually make me feel worse and these feelings have increased with time (I mostly stay away from them in recent years, but periodically binge on them for short periods of time because initially they make me feel better).

I'll make an appointment with the psychiatrist I used to see when I was being treated for depression and ADHD and see if I can articulate myself well enough on the subject for her to take it seriously. I'll most likely print out a list of bullet points about how adrenal fatigue seems to have a lot of overlaps with what I've experienced, as articulating myself properly in conversation tends to be a mess at the best of times, I get tense and disorganised too easily (if only live conversations had a "quick edit" button, lol). Thank god I can ask her directly about this at least, as it doesn't involve any controlled substances, so she might take me seriously.

Edited by burnout, 12 October 2008 - 03:39 AM.


#129 purerealm

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 05:33 AM

I was actually able to get my doc to get a ferritin test for me and I'm awaiting the results, but I can't help but think that I'm just becoming a hypochondriac when my main problem is just depression. these days I feel like my head is so empty, no thoughts flowing , just emptiness, no interest in anything, I'm basically just staring at the computer screen with no ambitions/motivation, can't get past 2 pages in a book without losing interest, just don't know what to do

Did somebody turn off thread subscriptions ? because i don't get updates on this thread anymore

I just registered after reading this thread. I've experienced very similar things to all that you've described purerealm, and they've been an increasing problem for about seven or eight years now. It's kind of nice to hear other people talking about the same kind of experience, I've been at a loss trying to understand what the hell is wrong with me because the things I have experienced don't quite fit with just depression. I never really get sad for example, although as a consequence of having such a dysfunctional brain I *have* become a pretty downbeat person. I've been diagnosed with depression and treated unsuccessfully, similar thing with ADHD. Both of those descriptions have a number of overlaps with whatever is wrong with me, but don't quite match up.

Aaron thank you very much for the information. Adrenal exhaustion sounds like it makes an awful lot of sense, and I'm surprised I haven't considered it before because over the years I've spent untold hours wracking my brain and plundering the internet trying to find a description that matches what is wrong with me. I'm too tired to type out in detail all the reasons why I say that, but it might be a good fit for a whole bunch of symptoms that have seemed kind of unrelated. Very briefly and in no real order: orthostatic hypotension has been an issue for years, Strattera made things better at first but then gradually much worse over time, often bad reactions to caffeine or anything that gives me an adrenaline rush, I'm pretty sure that my decline was at least amplified by a huge uptake of cigarettes and coffee years ago as they usually make me feel worse and these feelings have increased with time (I mostly stay away from them in recent years, but periodically binge on them for short periods of time because initially they make me feel better).

I'll make an appointment with the psychiatrist I used to see when I was being treated for depression and ADHD and see if I can articulate myself well enough on the subject for her to take it seriously. I'll most likely print out a list of bullet points about how adrenal fatigue seems to have a lot of overlaps with what I've experienced, as articulating myself properly in conversation tends to be a mess at the best of times, I get tense and disorganised too easily (if only live conversations had a "quick edit" button, lol). Thank god I can ask her directly about this at least, as it doesn't involve any controlled substances, so she might take me seriously.



#130 ruby

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 12:52 PM

Dear purerealm

I agree with the thread about getting some exercise if you can, even though you feel you're too exhausted. Start moderately with something like walking. It might be that you have chronic fatigue syndrome or similar. You say your life has been pretty dreadful and that's something people sometimes say to me. As well as a good diet (look at eliminating foods that might be contributing to the brain fog and fatigue), I'd also consider a good hypnotherapist who can help you relax in those anxious moments, especially one who has experience of CFS/ME. The hypnotherapist also can help you with any performance anxiety.

As for college, I know it can make anyone yawn (I was a lecturer and mature student so I speak from experience!) so make sure you do the things that can keep you alert - sit right under the tutor's nose, drink water and use a tape recorder for the sessions you think you'll tune out of (most tutors should be okay with this).

Take care.

#131 aaron

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 07:55 PM

I was actually able to get my doc to get a ferritin test for me and I'm awaiting the results, but I can't help but think that I'm just becoming a hypochondriac when my main problem is just depression. these days I feel like my head is so empty, no thoughts flowing , just emptiness, no interest in anything, I'm basically just staring at the computer screen with no ambitions/motivation, can't get past 2 pages in a book without losing interest, just don't know what to do

Your test results clearly show that you're hypothyroid, and depression is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. I read your thread on the NTH-Adrenals list; Val's analysis -- impaired T4 to T3 conversion due to low ferritin, (formerly) high cortisol, or high Reverse T3 -- makes a lot of sense. Please report the results of the ferritin test when you receive them.

Did somebody turn off thread subscriptions ? because i don't get updates on this thread anymore

I'm still receiving e-mail notifications.

#132 aaron

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:06 PM

I'll make an appointment with the psychiatrist I used to see when I was being treated for depression and ADHD and see if I can articulate myself well enough on the subject for her to take it seriously. I'll most likely print out a list of bullet points about how adrenal fatigue seems to have a lot of overlaps with what I've experienced, as articulating myself properly in conversation tends to be a mess at the best of times, I get tense and disorganised too easily (if only live conversations had a "quick edit" button, lol). Thank god I can ask her directly about this at least, as it doesn't involve any controlled substances, so she might take me seriously.

Unfortunately, there's a good chance she won't seriously consider a diagnosis of adrenal fatigue (though you know your psychiatrist better than I). Saliva testing is the best way to diagnose adrenal fatigue, but that kind of test isn't favoured by most doctors. Potentially useful blood tests related to adrenal health include ACTH, A.M. cortisol, aldosterone, DHEA, 24 hour urinary cortisol, sodium, and potassium. Tests of thyroid health include TSH, free T3, free T4, and ferritin.

My doctor was uncomfortable when I used the term "adrenal fatigue"; she preferred "adrenal insufficiency."

#133 purerealm

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Posted 14 October 2008 - 08:27 PM

I think I should add that when I first tried the finger prick, I kept on pricking the wrong spots so i was only able to get a tiny drop onto the blood spot card, I had to re order some more pricks and I was finally able to fill the card about 3 days later. would you happen to know if this would contaminate the results? Nothing makes sense to me, most of the time when everyone else is feeling fine I feel like I am about to jump out of my skin from heat intolerance, although it has been pretty cold at night lately and haven't been dealing with the cold too well either.
It also seems incredibly odd that you can't find a single reference to ferritin test being used as an indicator of thyroid problems from an established medical authority. All the search results I found were in reference to anemia.


I was actually able to get my doc to get a ferritin test for me and I'm awaiting the results, but I can't help but think that I'm just becoming a hypochondriac when my main problem is just depression. these days I feel like my head is so empty, no thoughts flowing , just emptiness, no interest in anything, I'm basically just staring at the computer screen with no ambitions/motivation, can't get past 2 pages in a book without losing interest, just don't know what to do

Your test results clearly show that you're hypothyroid, and depression is a common symptom of hypothyroidism. I read your thread on the NTH-Adrenals list; Val's analysis -- impaired T4 to T3 conversion due to low ferritin, (formerly) high cortisol, or high Reverse T3 -- makes a lot of sense. Please report the results of the ferritin test when you receive them.

Did somebody turn off thread subscriptions ? because i don't get updates on this thread anymore

I'm still receiving e-mail notifications.



#134 aaron

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Posted 15 October 2008 - 04:35 PM

I think I should add that when I first tried the finger prick, I kept on pricking the wrong spots so i was only able to get a tiny drop onto the blood spot card, I had to re order some more pricks and I was finally able to fill the card about 3 days later. would you happen to know if this would contaminate the results?

I'm not sure. If I understand you correctly -- there was only a tiny drop of blood from the first day, and the rest was supplied three days later -- then I doubt there could be much contamination. You could ask your doctor to do serum tests of TSH, free T3, and free T4; perhaps it would help if you explained that you've already tested low for TSH, but you're not sure whether the test was performed correctly.

Nothing makes sense to me, most of the time when everyone else is feeling fine I feel ike I am about to jump out of my skin from heat intolerance, although it has been pretty cold at night lately and haven't been dealing with the cold too well either.

Actually, that makes perfect sense. Heat/cold intolerance is a common symptom of adrenal fatigue and hypothyroidism.

It also seems incredibly odd that you can't find a single reference to ferritin test being used as an indicator of thyroid problems from an established medical authority.

I've found references to published papers about the correlation between ferritin and thyroid function. I haven't found one that shows that raising ferritin will help the thyroid, but I haven't spent much time looking yet. Here's an article about the connection between iron and hypothyroidism: http://www.tpa-uk.or...chromatosis.pdf. I think it was Dr. Broda Barnes who first promoted the importance of iron to thyroid function. Val, the moderator of the NTH-Adrenals list, has repeatedly encountered cases where people did not respond to thyroid meds until their ferritin level was raised.

#135 burnout

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 01:17 AM

Purerealm, I meant to ask if you have used Provigil yet, and what kind of success you may have had with it. I've read some extremely positive patient accounts of it being used for ADHD inattentive type. (i.e. here and here). There are a number of studies published supporting this treatment on pubmed also.

Two of the main problems affecting me are brain fog/mental fatigue, and memory retreival, which are apparently features of what used to be called sluggish cognitive tempo. I seem to have almost zero working memory, and memory recall is totally unreliable. Sluggish cognitive tempo describes precisely how I feel, kind of like my brain is a car sputtering along about half as fast as everyone else.

I'm hoping this is just caused by general understimulation. Apparently electrical stimulation of the brain can vastly improve memory - link - my memory is so shot I'd probably elect to have this surgery if I could, lol. But I'm wondering if Provigil might help in this regard by ramping up brain activity, apparently it targets the hypothalmus (which is implicated in the electrical brain stimulation research). Either way I'd like to try it just to stop being so damn foggy headed and mentally drained all the time, but if it could help my memory problems too it'd kill two troublesome birds with one stone.

Edited by burnout, 21 October 2008 - 01:27 AM.


#136 YoungManNihilis

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Posted 21 October 2008 - 09:34 PM

It's pretty amazing that I stumbled upon this thread, because I'm currently experiencing the exact (and when I say exact, I literally mean EXACT) same symptoms that purerealm mentions in his original posting.

I'm 24 right now, and I've been getting this "brain fog" since around March. I had previously had a history with depression that I took Zoloft for about four years ago, but at that time I didn't have the forgetfulness and spacey feeling that I have now (I also ceased the Zoloft cold turkey after 8 months, basically without telling anyone. I felt great, so why keep listening to doctor's orders?). After this brain fog recently started, I went for a sleep study under the advisement of my PCP, and it came back that I had moderate sleep apnea caused by enlarged tonsils. It made sense, as throughout college and pretty much all of my life I suffered from chronic insomnia, the inability to wake up in the morning, and the constant need to take midday naps.

I elected for the permanent, surgical option as opposed to using CPAP for the rest of my life (I'm 24 and in decent shape, not the typical CPAP candidate). I went under the knife in July, and for about 2-3 weeks post surgery, I felt unbelievable. I could fall asleep at night in less than 5 minutes (pre-surgery it could take as much as an hour, even if I had been up that morning at 7 AM and not napped), I had energy in the morning, and I couldn't even nap in the afternoon if I tried.

But gradually in past two months I have noticed the brain fog returning. I feel like a zombie throughout the day, almost in a dreamlike state. I feel as if my morning routine, my workday, and my evenings are spent just having my body involuntarily going through the motions, without my mind consciously controlling anything. I can't read more than a few paragraphs of anything without struggling to retain the information, and I'm constantly forgetting things or ceasing to remember what I was doing when I get started on a task. When I was young, it was never like this. I never even had to write things down because I remembered everything, and my mind was razor sharp. Now I can barely function during the day. I have always suspected that I may have some kind of ADD, but why would the brain fog just be starting NOW?

I've noticed a severe decline in my ability and desire to be social, as well as extreme irritability, and a complete lack of being able to deal with stress of any kind. I also, like clockwork, awake 1-2 hours before my alarm goes off before work every day, leading me to believe that all these things may be related to depression. But I wonder if there's some underlying physical ailment that is causing said depression? I've got a massive amount of bloodwork scheduled for tomorrow, and appointments with a neurologist/psychiatrist and an endocrinologist to see if they can help.

All I want is to find out what is wrong. These problems have so far literally ruined my career, alienated my freinds, and destroyed any ability to maintain a romantic relationship. So please, if any of you make any progress on relieving your own symptoms, please post it.

#137 purerealm

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 07:18 AM

All I want is to find out what is wrong. These problems have so far literally ruined my career, alienated my freinds, and destroyed any ability to maintain a romantic relationship. So please, if any of you make any progress on relieving your own symptoms, please post it.


cool man yeah a lot of people seem to be having very similar problems go ahead and use this thread to post on your own improvements. But it seems like you're being slightly irresponsible. we do have control over our lives and to be able to change it. it's something that i've been coming to terms with... having power over your own life it seems like you're being very proactive with treating yourself though and I think that's wonderful, life is way too short to be dilly dallying around.


to the guy asking about provigil, I've used every medication out there to help treat me, and every one has lost efficacy after a certain time limit. I believe that my hospital visit from high dose dexedrine 200mg was enough to screw up the efficacy of any stimulatory drug for me. After that I tried ritalin which stopped working after maybe 2 weeks, but for a while it worked ok. And then came provigil, was supposed to take 400 mg eventually but even at 100 mg I felt was more than enough. I'd get this uncomfortable feeling of feeling forceful wakefulness, but initially there'd be this burst of energy along with mood enhancement, and I'd get alot of work done for a long time maybe about 8 hours. After about a month it stopped working well and now window of benefits is tiny but the comedown time period is huge.

#138 davidd

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Posted 22 October 2008 - 04:29 PM

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David

#139 purerealm

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 05:04 AM

I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David



#140 davidd

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 05:33 PM

A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature about the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia,

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS.



I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David



A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature about the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation a

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS.



I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David



A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature about the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation,

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS.



I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David



A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature about the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation,

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS.



I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David



A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature about the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack o

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS.



I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David




#141 davidd

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 06:20 PM

A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature for the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation and dysnomia (trouble recalling words and/or names). I can relate to those symptoms and I can relate to some of your college experiences, although I believe yours is a more serious situation. I have Gilbert's Syndrome.

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS. GS is present in about 5-10% of the populate. It is usually found in the teenage years or early adulthood when a test is ordered for some reason and the bilirubin is noticed. I think there is something hormonal that causes bilirubin production to increase at this point in life, so although the mutation is there from birth, it may not affect someone until the bilirubin production is increased.

A simple blood test can give you your bilirubin levels, like I listed below. (again, I faked the numbers below -- numbers like below would not be indicative of GS) I'm not saying you have Gilbert's Syndrome or even that all your problems are attributed to it if you do have it. However, I think it would be worth getting this test, given all that you've been through. It may help provide a piece of the puzzle if you do test positive.

If you decide to get the blood test, don't drink alcohol for a week before the test and just eat normally the day before, until 12 hours before the test. Alcohol can cause the test to show less bilirubin than you normally have, fasting too much can increase bilirubin levels, and eating too close to the test can reduce the levels. The doctor will direct you about how much to fast before the test. He/She may not remember to mention no alcohol. I am not sure how marijuana affects this, so I would recommend abstaining from this for a week before the test as well. Same goes for any other drugs that aren't necessary. Also, the people drawing the blood have to know it is for this test, I believe, because the bilirubin has to be protected from light or it will be changed to a water soluble isomer form. Just make sure they know what the blood is being drawn for.

If you would like to discuss this further, feel free to PM me.

David

I don't think so, that doesn't sound familiar at all. why do you ask?

purerealm,

In all the tests you've had performed over the years, do you have any results showing your bilirubin levels? This may have been part of test called "hepatic panel test", "liver panel test" or "liver function test" and the output may have looked something like this. This is just an example, obviously.

Bili-Conjugated 0.2 0.0-0.3 mg/dL
Bilirubin,Delta 0.3 0.0-0.4 mg/dL
BILIRUBIN, TOTAL 0.9 0.2-1.3 mg/dL
ALBUMIN 4.5 3.3-4.6 g/dL
PROTEIN, TOTAL 7.2 6.8-8.8 g/dL

ALKALINE PHOSPHATASE 61 40-150 U/L
ALT 25 0-70 U/L
AST 23 0-55 U/L


Thanks,
David




#142 stephen_b

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 06:49 PM

Sorry if it's been mentioned on this long thread. I find a gram of ALCAR on an empty stomach when I wake up does wonders for mental energy. I love the stuff.

StephenB

#143 davidd

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 07:15 PM

Please remove post 140. I can't edit it and obviously something went very wrong while I was posting and a separate post was made with a lot of repetition.

The URL is:

http://www.imminst.o...o...st&p=272397

Thanks,
David

Edited by davidd, 23 October 2008 - 07:16 PM.


#144 graatch

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Posted 25 October 2008 - 08:30 AM

A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature for the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation and dysnomia (trouble recalling words and/or names). I can relate to those symptoms and I can relate to some of your college experiences, although I believe yours is a more serious situation. I have Gilbert's Syndrome.

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS. GS is present in about 5-10% of the populate. It is usually found in the teenage years or early adulthood when a test is ordered for some reason and the bilirubin is noticed. I think there is something hormonal that causes bilirubin production to increase at this point in life, so although the mutation is there from birth, it may not affect someone until the bilirubin production is increased.


From my light research on the matter I am inclined to think you and others may be right -- there may be consequences of the syndrome, neurological tendencies even, which are not recognized by the medical community at present.

So understanding that I speak on hypothetical ground, I'm curious -- what are treatments for Gilbert's Syndrome? Lifestyle changes? Any supplements that show an effect?

#145 davidd

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 02:38 AM

A number of your symptoms are consistent with symptoms reported by people with Gilbert's Syndrome (GS). However, you won't find a lot of the symptoms listed in medical literature for the condition. Some of the symptoms you listed were fatigue, brain fog, mild dyslexia, lack of motivation and dysnomia (trouble recalling words and/or names). I can relate to those symptoms and I can relate to some of your college experiences, although I believe yours is a more serious situation. I have Gilbert's Syndrome.

In brief, GS is a genetic mutation that causes less of a specific liver enzyme to be produced. This liver enzyme metabolizes bilirubin (produced when red blood cells are destroyed), so people with GS usually have higher than normal levels of unconjugated bilirubin in their blood. This can show up as jaundice, especially during times of illness or other stress. Besides not processing bilirubin as rapidly as normal, there can be drug interactions, where drug doses are effectively increased due to the slower metabolization in this particular enzyme (slower due to amount, not due to a functional change in the enzyme itself). For instance, some chemotherapy drugs need to be given in smaller doses for people with Gilbert's Syndrome to prevent over-toxicity. Even something as common as aspirin is most often metabolized more slowly in people with GS. GS is present in about 5-10% of the populate. It is usually found in the teenage years or early adulthood when a test is ordered for some reason and the bilirubin is noticed. I think there is something hormonal that causes bilirubin production to increase at this point in life, so although the mutation is there from birth, it may not affect someone until the bilirubin production is increased.


From my light research on the matter I am inclined to think you and others may be right -- there may be consequences of the syndrome, neurological tendencies even, which are not recognized by the medical community at present.

So understanding that I speak on hypothetical ground, I'm curious -- what are treatments for Gilbert's Syndrome? Lifestyle changes? Any supplements that show an effect?


Disclaimer: If you do want to act on anything I've mentioned, please discuss it with your physician first. I am not a physician.

First off, there is some cross-over information in another thread on the boards. However, that deals mainly with the health benefits of extra bilirubin rather than the possible negative aspects, so in the context of negative symptoms, I'll keep the reply in this thread.

It is a tricky thing, because who knows whether all these things are just from Gilbert's Syndrome, or are a combination of that and other things. It makes me wonder just how many genetic mutations there are that are unknown, and that affect small, but significant subsets of the population. This particular mutation was not discovered until 1996. Even within Gilbert's Syndrome, there are genetic variations among different people.

As for treatments, there are no real recognized treatments. The medical community considers Gilbert's Syndrome to be largely inconsequential. For those less fortunate people, who have Crigler-Najjar syndrome type II (same general issue as Gilbert's Syndrome, but even higher levels of bilirubin), they can be given phenobarbital daily to reduce some of the bilirubin -- down to about the same level as Gilbert's Syndrome. People with Gilbert's Syndrome can take this too, and then the bilirubin levels may be normal, but it probably isn't a good long-term plan.

Keep in mind that what may increase (or decrease) bilirubin may not increase/decrease the symptoms, because it may be that some of the symptoms are not directly related to the bilirubin. However, that's really all we have to go by, so my theory is to try to stay away from things that raise bilirubin and consider adding things that reduce bilirubin.

I'll get back to possible "treatments" in a minute. First, let's discuss what may exacerbate the hyperbilirubinemia.

Fasting for 48 hours may raise bilirubin levels by a factor of 2 or 3 in people with GS. Therefore, eating regular meals is a good thing and skipping meals (especially breakfast) would theoretically be a bad thing. Speaking from experience, I can say this seems to hold true for me. Not that I know what my bilirubin level is when I miss a meal, but I feel worse if I don't eat regularly.

I've also read that low fat diets (about 5% or less fat) can raise bilirubin levels the same amount as a complete fast. I'm not sure if medical science knows why exactly this happens. Keeping the fat to 10% or higher supposedly avoids this issue.

Niacin (Vitamin B3) can raise bilirubin levels in people with GS by a factor of 2 or 3, in doses of 50 mg, within just a few hours. I'm not sure what taking the RDA of B3 does, but if I remember correctly, this is 2.5 times the RDA. So maybe sticking with the RDA is wise. I think it is also believed that taking higher amounts of B3 with other B vitamins and vitamin C may reduce this effect, but I don't know if that is valid or not. Just something to keep in mind if you do happen to have GS and have high cholesterol and a doctor tells you to take B3 for the cholesterol/triglycerides.

Now even though it contains less than the RDA of niacin, I do try to stay away from chicken/turkey for lunch, as it really does seem to make me sleepy. I always just figured I was especially sensitive to tryptophan, which really shouldn't make most people sleepy when consumed in food form. Oddly enough tryptophan is converted into niacin in the body. The link between tryptophan and niacin and niacin and Gilbert's Syndrome is an intriguing one, but hard to say how much effect I truly have from chicken/turkey as a result of GS.

Now, the above may be the documented things that raise bilirubin (or lower in the case of phenobarbital) in people with GS, but I have to believe that anything that inhibits the production of the enzyme from UGT1A1 (glucuronyl transferase) is going to be a bad thing for GS. There is a bit of a debate about fluoride's enzyme inhibiting abilities and that it may be extra bad for people with GS. To be on the safe side, one might want to consider staying away from fluoridated water. That also has the benefit of staying away from chlorine, although a lot of that is absorbed just by taking a bath/shower if you have chlorinated water. :(

On the flip side, anything that induces the production of glucuronyl transferase should be a good thing (in theory). Not only is it going to reduce the amount of unconjugated bilirubin in the blood, but it is also going to help in the metabolization of some drugs and in the removal of other toxic chemicals from the body.

There are a number of things that are supposed to induce UGT1A1 (besides phenobarbital). Some of them are:

quercetin
chrysin
acacetin
apigenin
luteolin
diosmetin

Those are all flavonoids. There are other flavonoids that may help as well, but those are the ones in my list of things to consider currently. For some reason, although flavonoids can be very good for you, the body goes into overdrive to flush them out of your system. It does this by increasing production of the detoxifying enzymes, such as glucuronyl transferase.

Side note: UGT1A1 is one of the two main genes (along with UGT1A9) responsible for phase 2 metabolization of resveratrol, which a lot of people on this board take. It is interesting that resveratrol's polyphenol cousins would act to eliminate it from the human body. In the case of GS, however, I wonder if the best of both worlds can be had, since reduced metabolization of both the flavonoids and the resveratrol may allow them to do more of the good that they have shown in test tubes. I should also point out that the metabolites of some of the flavonoids have also been shown to be beneficial (anti-cancer, etc.), so even if they are quickly metabolized, it doesn't mean they aren't doing you any good.

Alcohol has been shown to induce UGT1A1 too. Obviously, there are downsides to alcohol consumption, but if a person can treat this more like a supplement and take a measured dose each day, there may be some benefits for those with GS. A lot of people with GS state that they feel more ill than usual when they consume alcohol. Maybe some people have other mutations that cause this, or maybe it is just that when they drink a lot, they are staying up late and not getting as much sleep. Lack of a good night's sleep seems to be a common agitator for this affliction. I'll also mention that I have a theory that a lot of people aren't diagnosed with GS, or aren't diagnosed as early as they otherwise would be, because of relatively frequent alcohol consumption masking the hyperbilirubinemia on the blood tests.

Lastly, prolonged exposure to light, especially blue light, over a large percentage of your skin, can reduce bilirubin concentrations. Unlike the UGT1A1 inducers, this works by converting the bilirubin into a water-soluble isomer, called lumirubin, which can then be excreted by the kidneys. In effect, the light is doing the job of UGT1A1. However, it is only doing UGT1A1's job with respect to bilirubin. It isn't removing other toxins (unless they happen to also be light sensitive). That goes back to my comment about whether lowering bilirubin levels alone is all that is needed to reduce all the GS symptoms.

Light therapy is used for jaundiced babies (depending on the bilirubin levels) and is also the only therapy I know of for Crigler-Najjar Syndrome type I. People with type I have almost no bilirubin conjugation ability, thus they have toxic levels of bilirubin in their blood. They will usually sleep, uncovered, under blue lights. If they don't do this or don't have liver transplants, they will die at some point.


The above information is a good amount to get you started. :) Most of it is based on scientific studies. I will now tell you briefly about what I do and my personal recommendations for someone with GS. Each person is unique, so what works for me may not work for someone else.

I have only noticed 3 things that have helped me. Iron supplementation, alcohol consumption, and quercetin supplementation. The iron was tried on a hunch, due to the fatigue, even though blood tests didn't show me as being anemic. I did this for a few years, but I wouldn't recommend it, because iron is just too hard on your body. It helped with my fatigue, but I don't think it did anything for the bilirubin levels, so the other symptoms were still there. As for the alcohol, it is just something I noticed. I rarely drink alcohol, but I noticed that I would wake early and quickly (very rare for me) when I drank the night before. Even just a couple beers seemed to have this effect. I also noticed that my eyes were nice and white the next day. My eyes aren't typically ultra yellow, but they aren't bright white either. It wasn't until recently that I found the scientific information about how alcohol induces UGT1A1. Like iron, I don't personally consider alcohol a good solution.

Earlier this summer, when I was looking into resveratrol, I read how some people experienced more energy when they started taking it. I researched it a bit and although there is some controversy about this, I decided to take quercetin with it. I also decided to take a quercetin supplement that contains a plant enzyme called bromelain (comes from the stems of pineapples), since that was supposed to help absorption/bioavailability.

So, I stopped taking extra iron supplements (but did keep taking a multivitamin twice a day that contains iron), and started taking 400 mg resveratrol (it also contains grape seed extract, grape skin extract and pine bark extract) and 1000 mg quercetin (which included 500 mg bromelain). This was taken in two divided doses -- once in the morning and once in the evening, with breakfast and dinner, respectively. I felt really good, but had a hunch that a little more quercetin would be even better, so I upped it to 1500 mg of quercetin (750 mg bromelain) after about a week. This was still in line with what the bottle recommended taking and my research showed that there wasn't very much risk of toxicity with quercetin or bromelain.

Although I felt the effects the first day, I'd guess it took about two weeks with this combination before I felt the full effects, which included a reduction in some nagging aches and pains I had (my guess is they were from the iron supplementation) in addition to much less lethargy, being able to wake early, etc. Quercetin and bromelain are anti-inflammatory, so that makes sense. Of course, I had no idea which of the 3 supplements were responsible for all the changes.

After about 8 weeks, I ran out of resveratrol. When I received my shipment, I decided to try taking just the resveratrol and to stop taking the quercetin/bromelain. I also increased the resveratrol from 400 mg to 600 mg daily (still in two doses). About two weeks after doing this, my jaundice started coming back (my indirect way to measure the bilirubin), as did my fatigue. Slowly, over another 6 weeks or so, the aches and pains came back too. This leaves me believing that it was probably the quercetin that reduced my GS symptoms and the mixture of quercetin/bromelain that helped with the aches and pains (I'll give bromelain the bulk of this benefit). It is possible it was the combination of the 3 supplements that helped with my GS symptoms, but my money is on the quercetin, given the scientific knowledge I now have, much of which was acquired over this summer from scouring the Internet.

I'm doing some unrelated testing of resveratrol's mitochondrial biogenesis potential, but will start taking the quercetin/bromelain again at some point. I also plan on getting a blood test with and without the quercetin supplementation to note the differences in bilirubin concentration and other metrics. I do have bilirubin results from earlier this summer when I was taking it. My total bilirubin (which was 100% unconjugated) was just barely above normal, at 1.5 mg/dL (normal is 0.2-1.3 mg/dL). From memory, I've had it tested as high as over 3.x and as low as 2.x in the past. This low result (1.5) give me more proof that the quercetin really was lowering my bilirubin and not that I just felt better for other reasons.

Given the above, I recommend people with GS at least try the quercetin/bromelain combo. Seems to be little risk and a lot to gain. It is also relatively cheap. :)

I also recommend having a consistent eating schedule that contains at least 10% fats and a consistent sleeping schedule, with at least 8 hours of good sleep.

I recommend not taking acetaminophen (Tylenol). I believe the risk of liver damage is not worth it. Many people with GS also have mutations in other genes responsible for metabolism of this chemical. This can, in theory, leave the drug in the liver too long, causing damage. Oddly enough, my drug of choice has always been ibuprofen. I don't take aspirin or Tylenol, because they don't seem to work as well for me for headaches. I am not aware of any problems with ibuprofen and GS. I can also count on one or two hands how many ibuprofen I take in a typical year.

As you can probably guess from the above, I don't do drugs. This isn't because of GS. However, I have to believe that there might be some risks with drugs (illicit or not) for people with GS. I have a hunch that marijuana and Gilbert's Syndrome don't mix. It seems like the symptoms/side effects overlap, thus could be exacerbated when combined. There's no scientific backing for that, just my personal guess.

Feel free to ask me if there are any questions about anything I've posted, whether through the thread or in a private message.

David

#146 purerealm

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 06:32 PM

alright guys i got my ferritin and complete blood test back

so i finally got my ferritin back , it's at 151 for between 22-322,


Also new blood lab results: TSH .749 for .450-4.500
my urinalysis had one flag for 'specific gravity' >=1.030 for 1.005-1.030
flag for low monocytes under cbc
and perhaps most alarming of all is a flag for serum glucose 102 for 65-99

I have no idea what to do now, anyone mind giving me some advice? Thanks :)

#147 burnout

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 07:01 PM

David, how prominent was jaundice in your case? I have experienced the same symptoms as purerealm, but have never observed jaundice in myself. Apparently I am often very pale though.

#148 davidd

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 09:50 PM

alright guys i got my ferritin and complete blood test back

so i finally got my ferritin back , it's at 151 for between 22-322,


Also new blood lab results: TSH .749 for .450-4.500
my urinalysis had one flag for 'specific gravity' >=1.030 for 1.005-1.030
flag for low monocytes under cbc
and perhaps most alarming of all is a flag for serum glucose 102 for 65-99

I have no idea what to do now, anyone mind giving me some advice? Thanks :)


I'm guessing it didn't include it, but I'll ask anyway. Did the blood test include bilirubin counts?

Thanks,
David

#149 davidd

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Posted 30 October 2008 - 10:27 PM

David, how prominent was jaundice in your case? I have experienced the same symptoms as purerealm, but have never observed jaundice in myself. Apparently I am often very pale though.


I am rarely sick, but in the past, when I have been sick, the yellow tint was a little more noticeable in my eyes. Probably the same is true for when I used to skip meals more or get run down more by not getting proper sleep. I don't do that as often now, so that may be why I don't see it much now. Mostly it is just an off-white shade instead of being white. Some people have then eye jaundice all the time, and some don't have it at all.

Now, medical scientists do believe that some number of people who have the GS mutations in their detoxifying enzymes also have some sort of other uniqueness that increases the destruction of red blood cells too. In other words, there is more bilirubin produced *and* there is less of it that is taken out by the liver/intestines, etc., thus leading to even more unconjugated bilirubin in the blood than if it were just a matter of a slugish conjugation enzyme. I am not sure if this would be present to the degree that it would lead to you being pale, if you did have that particular issue.

It is theoretically possible that you could have multiple issues, like GS and hemolytic anemia (which I think would be more likely from a different cause from the type that people with GS have, if it lead to paleness). According to this page on hemolytica anemia, pale skin is one of the possible symptoms. Hemolytic anemia can result from a whole variety of root causes. Some people with GS *do* report pale skin, although it just isn't as common as other reported symptoms.

Either way, if you get your bilirubin checked and it is high, then you would know whether you are dealing with something in this realm or something totally different. If you end up with high bilirubin, then more tests could narrow it down further. If you didn't have high bilirubin, then you could probably dismiss this as a possibility (assuming the test was accurate and assuming it wasn't just a fluke that your bilirubin was lower at that point in time).

I'd say, get it tested and see what it shows. If it doesn't show a high count, then wait a while and get it tested one more time. Be sure to follow the doctor's instructions the night before/morning of, and consider what I mentioned as well, to ensure the test is as accurate as it can be.

Out of curiosity, do you mind sharing some of the symptoms you have?

Recently, I've been putting together some pieces of the dysnomia symptom and what might be going on biologically to cause it. Although it is only theoretical, it is facinating when the pieces start to fall together. I'll be posting somewhere on the site when I've done a bit more research on this.


Informal poll for those of you out there who have noted some of the symptoms presented in this thread. Are you slow at taking tests? Do you often leave timed tests unfinished? Are you slower at reading?

David

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#150 aaron

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Posted 31 October 2008 - 12:13 AM

alright guys i got my ferritin and complete blood test back

so i finally got my ferritin back , it's at 151 for between 22-322,

Also new blood lab results: TSH .749 for .450-4.500
my urinalysis had one flag for 'specific gravity' >=1.030 for 1.005-1.030
flag for low monocytes under cbc
and perhaps most alarming of all is a flag for serum glucose 102 for 65-99

I have no idea what to do now, anyone mind giving me some advice? Thanks :)

So, your ferritin is fine; that's good to know. And you've confirmed that your TSH is low despite the low T3 (according to the previous test). High T4 and low T3 suggests a conversion problem, which is apparently not due to low ferritin. As Val said before on the NTH-Adrenals list, another cause could be high reverse T3 (RT3) caused in turn by (previously) high cortisol. See if you can convince your doctor to test your RT3 and free T3 concurrently; the ratio of free T3 to RT3 will show whether you have an RT3 problem. In the worst case, you can order the tests yourself, although that would cost around $250.

If you do have an RT3 problem, the solution is to take T3-only meds until the excess RT3 is cleared from receptors that would otherwise bind T3. I realize this may all sound rather obscure and tenuous. I suggest that you post your new results to the NTH-Adrenals list, along with a copy of the old ones. The mailing list is also a good place to find stories of those who have successfully treated their RT3 problem.

Today, I convinced my doctor to test my free T3 and free T4. I plan to self-medicate with natural thyroid once I get the results (I don't want to repeat the mistake of starting the medication before testing, like I did with cortisol/cortisone). An RT3 problem is unlikely in my case because my free T4 was on the low side when tested a couple of years ago. I'm curious to see what difference the thyroid meds will make. The hydrocortisone has signficantly reduced the fatigue, brain fog, and anxiety, but my energy level and motivation are still suboptimal.




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