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What do you think happens after death?

religion philosophy death spirituality afterlife reincarnation consciousness nothingness oblivion karma

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#1 McSchwangstasis

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 01:37 PM


Hi everyone, I was just wondering what the prevailing opinions on this topic are at longecity. IMO the possible options are:

1) afterlife of some sort
2) nothingness
3) karmic reincarnation, as in vedic traditions.
4) non karmic reincarnation if some sort.

I am assuming we will have a lot of people going for number 2, but who knows for sure.

Personally I believe number 4 is most likely, with the basic philosophical argument that if we are born from nothingness and we die into nothingness there is a link already established. I believe the Hard Problem of consciousness, or underlying aspects of consciousness seperated from brain activity, could also bridge this gap.

That being said, I trust science over philosophy and I like my life so I'll be a life extension for as long as I live.
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#2 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 01:52 PM

I think nothingess.

 

What do you mean by non karmic reincarnation?



#3 McSchwangstasis

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 03:10 PM

Basically that after you die your line of consciousness arises in another living being via some mechanism unrelated to what you did in this life,  unrelated to an external force like god directing the process, and without any memory of a "past life".  Ideas of what the actual transfer of consciousness is linked to could still vary, though.  My belief that consciousness arises from the same place it ends up (theoretically nothingness, but potentially something just more simple and universal than brain-linked consciousness) is one example.  

 

Another is the idea that consciousness is linked to matter, and one argument to support that is that patients who lack any brain activity while in a coma theoretically wake up with a continued line of consciousness from when they entered the coma (however even assumptions like this are not provable due to having no actual metric for hard consciousness).  Of course, the counterargument is that the structure of the brain is also preserved and could embody the continuation of consciousness, but the counter-counterargument is that the structure and connectivity of the brain are actually changing every minute of every day and sometimes dramatically such as after a stroke.

 

A thought experiment:  What would happen if someone could take your brain, break the ECM holding the cells together such that they were essentially a giant cell culture, and then reformat them perfectly into their original structure?  Would it still be you?  If you answered yes, then what if the cells were lysed and then reassembled?  The only difference is the membrane being broken, but I bet now your wondering.  You could even argue that the next step in this idea is that a brain is digested, say by a snake eating a mouse. A large chunk of that mouse brain is essentially being lysed and reformatted into a snake's nervous system from a mouses.  Is this a continuation?

 

I know this is all just philosophy and not science, but I would argue that the concept of nothingness after death is also very much a philosophical idea.

 

https://en.wikipedia...ntal_or_elusive

 

 



#4 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:29 PM

Purely theoretically, if someone takes apart the brain, and then later puts it together, then it still will be your brain. 

It should be the same independently of the size of the components, that the brain is being taken apart. As long as it is being rebuilt back from its very same compobnents, it should be the same brain. 

 

Those kind of thinking is simmilar with the quantum archeology, based on the determinism. Have you heared of it? 



#5 sthira

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 06:54 PM

My grandfather and I were close, he was an artist, a tool user with psychedelics: spiritual in the searching sense that means rejected commodity religion. But he believed in something larger than this life. Often we'd chill along the riverbanks where my grandparents lived, we'd smoke a joint, drink some wine, maybe burn some incense, and do what humans have done for eons: discuss eternity. Oh we'd talk about everything -- girls, art, science careers, what living a good life might entail.

And so to be relevant to this thread and your question, we talked God, death, and a possible afterlife. He read books about near death experiences, and watched youtubes of passionate people describing their profound death experiences, how once people entered into the stages of death, no one seemed to want to return to their own bodies. Go to the light, says every NDEr.

Staring at the stars, my grandfather would discuss the sensitive topic of his own death, and he liked to make the promise to me to return a sign somehow. Throw me a bone, a call out from beyond, give me a signal there's more to this than random meaninglessness. If an afterlife exists, he said, and I have any ability to give you signs from beyond, I'll do it, I'll try, I'll try to give you a sign.

"Like what?"

"You'll know," he said, "I won't be subtle."

We made little formal ceremonies, like stoned kids.

Fast forward a few years, he got one of the dreaded diseases of aging: dementia: he faded, he lost everything, and eventually he suffered a painful death.

I've returned to our spot along the riverbank many times, and I've sat and listened. I've waited. I've blamed myself for being too deaf or too blind or too insensitive or stupid to receive my grandfather's signs from beyond. I've cried, I've yelled at the night, I've hated the indifferent river waves, the occasional bat swinging above.

Still: nothing.

Any hint, any sign, any indication that he was able to pass a sign along, of course, has failed. I'm still listening, though, still blaming my own limitations. What has succeeded is more silence, darkness and no signs from an afterlife from my beloved, mystical grandfather who would give it to me if he could. The universe spins on indifferently.

Of course, my little story doesn't touch upon whether any afterlife exists or not. Here we are bound by necessity of anecdote, n=1 everyone, that's it, believe in God or don't, have faith or don't, what choice have we? But the silence, more than dogma of any disbelieving science or believing religion, tells me that we have the present moment.

If an afterlife exists then I hope it exists also for all beings, not just humans, the most violent, dangerous animals on earth, but I hope a pleasant afterlife exists for all kingdoms of life -- animals, plants, fungi, even bacteria should get their fair shake at endless love and peace. There's certainly not much of it here -- look at the innocent babies caught in Syria, or Congo, or look at the inevitable extinction of plants and animals worldwide as we humans keep destroying our only home. Pushed as we are by evolutionary forces and gravity and laws and oxygen and fighting for reproductive mates, territories, food and homes, all the rest -- how could it be otherwise? Dream of a better life here on earth for our progeny, and if afterlife exists, then yay.


If Death is Kind
Perhaps if death is kind, and there can be returning,

We will come back to earth some fragrant night,

And take these lanes to find the sea, and bending

Breathe the same honeysuckle, low and white.
We will come down at night to these resounding beaches

And the long gentle thunder of the sea,

Here for a single hour in the wide starlight

We shall be happy, for the dead are free.
~ Sara Teasdale

Edited by sthira, 19 December 2016 - 07:01 PM.

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#6 McSchwangstasis

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:08 PM

Seivtcho,

 

I haven't heard of quantum archaeology, but thank you for telling me about it.  Very interesting concept, and not surprising that it's made its way into immortalist spaces.  Do you have any specific resources?  I basically just googled it and clicked the first few links.

 

I'd still like to know, do you think it needs to be built from the same components, have the same end-product (same neural architecture), or both?

 

I am just fundamentally skeptical about the idea that the same neural architecture is even a meaningful concept, giving the changing nature of the brain throughout our lives anyways.  And if the components matter, what organizational state do they need to be in?  Cells, proteins, atoms?

 

Sthira,

 

Wow, what an emotional and poetic description of your relationship with death.  Imagining it was very powerful.

 

Personally,  I don't believe an absence of a sign from those who have died implies anything except that there is no communication between the dead and the living, whether they are in the afterlife, gone forever, or born again.



#7 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:05 PM

To tell the true I know very few things about it, all I know is the phylosophy according to which it hopes to resurrect people in the future.

Here is it in brief:

 

-According to the determinism everything goes by laws. For example, if you fall on the ground, you will fall just on the spot and the position where the laws tell you - like gravity, air friction, etc. When they mean everything, they really mean absolutely everything. About the way you think they say, that your brain is following the rules, that govern your brain neural network. 

 

-If something is governed by rules, then everything is calculatable - it can be calculated. For everything there is a formula. 

 

-If there is a formula for everything, then everything can be calculated backwards. 

 

-This means, that all people, who have died, can be calculated backwards, atom by atoom and resurrected. 



#8 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:16 PM

What do you mean science over philosophy?  Science is a method and as such limited.  Scientism is a philosophy.  That being said, everything that is only physical dies.



#9 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:18 PM

To tell the true I know very few things about it, all I know is the phylosophy according to which it hopes to resurrect people in the future.

Here is it in brief:

 

-According to the determinism everything goes by laws. For example, if you fall on the ground, you will fall just on the spot and the position where the laws tell you - like gravity, air friction, etc. When they mean everything, they really mean absolutely everything. About the way you think they say, that your brain is following the rules, that govern your brain neural network. 

 

-If something is governed by rules, then everything is calculatable - it can be calculated. For everything there is a formula. 

 

-If there is a formula for everything, then everything can be calculated backwards. 

 

-This means, that all people, who have died, can be calculated backwards, atom by atoom and resurrected. 

Do it!!



#10 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:39 PM

Lol :) Do it is for the future.

 

The volume of calculations needed is enormously huge. It is not on the capabilities of the present supercomputers. 

 

Yet, it is another possible way of eventual resurrection, provided by the science. 



#11 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:54 PM

In other words it is less than faith.  It is not science.  We do know the worm awaits. 

 



#12 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:14 PM

No. It is a at least a faith or a belief, because it is based on scientific facts. 



#13 McSchwangstasis

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:19 PM

By science over philosophy I just mean that given the inability to prove anything related to hard consciousness with an experiment or an observation,  I would rather focus on using science to extend lifespan instead.



#14 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:23 PM

By science over philosophy I just mean that given the inability to prove anything related to hard consciousness with an experiment or an observation,  I would rather focus on using science to extend lifespan instead.

 

And how did you prove this scientifically?  Is science proved?
 



#15 platypus

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:25 PM

QA is bunk for a multitude of reasons. 



#16 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:26 PM

No. It is a at least a faith or a belief, because it is based on scientific facts. 

 

Facts?  What facts?  Science is a method not a position which itself is not proven.



#17 shadowhawk

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 10:28 PM

QA is bunk for a multitude of reasons. 

In other words gobbligoop!

 



#18 seivtcho

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:25 PM

 

No. It is a at least a faith or a belief, because it is based on scientific facts. 

 

Facts?  What facts?  Science is a method not a position which itself is not proven.

 

 

The idea for the scientific resurrection is based on the laws, that govern everything. 

Well, each law of the physics, for example, is a proof, that everything works by laws. 

You can't deny them being a science, because they are. 



#19 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 01:23 AM

 

 

No. It is a at least a faith or a belief, because it is based on scientific facts. 

 

Facts?  What facts?  Science is a method not a position which itself is not proven.

 

 

The idea for the scientific resurrection is based on the laws, that govern everything. 

Well, each law of the physics, for example, is a proof, that everything works by laws. 

You can't deny them being a science, because they are. 

 

I am not denying any laws of nature.  I just question how you are using them and calling your faith scientific.In what way are they "scientific?" and how is any law of physics proof?  In fact taken by themselves they are not proof of your faith.  What do you call proof?


 



#20 seivtcho

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 07:08 AM

 

I am not denying any laws of nature.  I just question how you are using them and calling your faith scientific.In what way are they "scientific?" and how is any law of physics proof?  In fact taken by themselves they are not proof of your faith.  What do you call proof?

 

 

 

Thanks for accepting the laws of nature as a part of the science. To tell the true, I didn't expected it from you :)

 

How this may lead to a science - based resurrection?

 

Since everything is being moved by laws of the nature, there is a formula for each thing - a formula for which you walk on the ground, a formula for the air moving in and put of your lungs, a formula for how many cells pill off your skin every day, a formula for when will be the next eclipse, a formula for the workings of the neural network in your brain, that calculates your decisions and thoughts, for whatever you imagine can be made a formula. This is also a fact - a scientific fact.

 

Once having the formula you can calculate the event in both directions - further in time, or earlier in time. For example you may say something like "In the fourth second from the fall the pencil is on the ground, in this very position. In the third second it has been 5 sentimeters from the ground in this very position. In the first second of the fall the pencil will be 25 sentimeters from the desk in exactly that position." Calculating event further and earlier in time is also scientific, and it has happened many times.

 

Now here is the main belief.

You can calculate backwards infinitely longer and infinitely earlier in time everything that has happened in the entire universe. You can calculate what has happened with each single atom from the big bang to the end of the universe. You need only the current start point - the position of all of the atoms in the universe and the forces, that are applied to them. And you need alot of calculations.

It is based on scientific and mathematical thinking and represents a possible scenario for the distant future. It is a theory, or a belief, in your views, because it has not been done yet. The reason for it not to be done yet is because of absence of calculating power, and not having detailed information of the current start point. These calculations are so vast, that even a current supercomputer is not able to calculate one second ago or one second further in an entire human lifespan. Plus people don't have that detailed knowledge about where exactly is each one atom, at least those on the planet.

 

Here is the resurrection belief:

Calculating backwards a decomposed corpse atom by atom will provide you with enough information to rebuild that entire corpse in the future. It is a belief, that in the future people will be able to build infinitely complex objects very fast by composing them atom by atom. Something like a superfast 3D printer on  nanoscalse resoution.


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#21 platypus

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 10:08 AM

You need only the current start point - the position of all of the atoms in the universe and the forces, that are applied to them.

You "only" need perfect information about the current state of the universe, LOL. You don't seem to realize that is impossible both in theory and in practice. Apply some critical thinking please. 


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#22 seivtcho

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 12:00 PM

I applied critical thinking some time ago, and I reached to the conclusion, that there is no law of the physics, that to stop you from aquireing information about any atom from the Mendeleev table. So, knowing the absolute knowledge for the entire universe is not theoretically impossible. As for practical, yes, practically today you can't know that. It is an open question for the very distant future, and a belief for the present time.


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#23 platypus

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 02:47 PM

I applied critical thinking some time ago, and I reached to the conclusion, that there is no law of the physics, that to stop you from aquireing information about any atom from the Mendeleev table. So, knowing the absolute knowledge for the entire universe is not theoretically impossible. As for practical, yes, practically today you can't know that. It is an open question for the very distant future, and a belief for the present time.

Tell me how you measure the position and momentum of every particle in the universe without disturbing the system in your measurements? What hardware you think are needed to achieve this?


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#24 seivtcho

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 06:10 PM

Well, that is a very long question and an as far as I know, an unsolved issue between scientists. They still argue if you can detect something without changing it during the detection.

 

The prevalent thinking today, as far as I know it, is that you actually can detect atoms without changing them.

 

How exactly the detection and the record for the current state of the universe will be performed, as I wrote above, will eventually tell you the people living after several thousand years.


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#25 shadowhawk

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 11:40 PM

 

 

I am not denying any laws of nature.  I just question how you are using them and calling your faith scientific.In what way are they "scientific?" and how is any law of physics proof?  In fact taken by themselves they are not proof of your faith.  What do you call proof?

 

 

 

Thanks for accepting the laws of nature as a part of the science. To tell the true, I didn't expected it from you :)

 

How this may lead to a science - based resurrection?

 

Since everything is being moved by laws of the nature, there is a formula for each thing - a formula for which you walk on the ground, a formula for the air moving in and put of your lungs, a formula for how many cells pill off your skin every day, a formula for when will be the next eclipse, a formula for the workings of the neural network in your brain, that calculates your decisions and thoughts, for whatever you imagine can be made a formula. This is also a fact - a scientific fact.

 

Once having the formula you can calculate the event in both directions - further in time, or earlier in time. For example you may say something like "In the fourth second from the fall the pencil is on the ground, in this very position. In the third second it has been 5 sentimeters from the ground in this very position. In the first second of the fall the pencil will be 25 sentimeters from the desk in exactly that position." Calculating event further and earlier in time is also scientific, and it has happened many times.

 

Now here is the main belief.

You can calculate backwards infinitely longer and infinitely earlier in time everything that has happened in the entire universe. You can calculate what has happened with each single atom from the big bang to the end of the universe. You need only the current start point - the position of all of the atoms in the universe and the forces, that are applied to them. And you need alot of calculations.

It is based on scientific and mathematical thinking and represents a possible scenario for the distant future. It is a theory, or a belief, in your views, because it has not been done yet. The reason for it not to be done yet is because of absence of calculating power, and not having detailed information of the current start point. These calculations are so vast, that even a current supercomputer is not able to calculate one second ago or one second further in an entire human lifespan. Plus people don't have that detailed knowledge about where exactly is each one atom, at least those on the planet.

 

Here is the resurrection belief:

Calculating backwards a decomposed corpse atom by atom will provide you with enough information to rebuild that entire corpse in the future. It is a belief, that in the future people will be able to build infinitely complex objects very fast by composing them atom by atom. Something like a superfast 3D printer on  nanoscalse resoution.

 

Why would you not expect me to accept such abstract objects as the mon physical laws of science and the amazing fact that you can describe the physical world using math.  I guess you know little of the history of Theism.

 There are indeed ways of using logic and math to show us things of the past.  (History) Formulas do not make reality, but they can describe it.  There is no formula that can make time go backwards.  To say otherwise us not science but nonsense.  It has nothing to do with actual resurrection for us.

You cannot count to infinity.  The Universe even had a beginning. You use the word, “happened” which is a temporal word going one way.  You cannot return to the Big Bang even though you have a formula of happening.  It is at best a theory or belief that has zero evidence.  Science is a method not a position without any evidence.  Surely you know that.

“Calculating backwards a decomposed corpse atom by atom will provide you with enough information to rebuild that entire corpse in the future.”  

Absolute nonsense.  What is lost in physical death is information on how those atoms fit together.  All purely physical things go through this disorganization of information.  Everything that is only physical dies.  (Second Law) The only example of resurrection comes from a religious source.  Otherwise the worm awaits.  We know what happens to the body.  Calculate away!
 


 



#26 seivtcho

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 08:03 AM

Formulas don't make the reality, but they show you how you can change the reality.

Once you have the formula you can construct a plan.

Once having a plan, you can work on the plan.

 

Once knowing enough much about what it was, you can onstruct your plan for resurrections.

Its as simple to understand as it is to build again a ruined building.

 

On the very same way, but quite a long time into the future, once having enough information for a death human, people would be able to rebuild it back, e.g. they can resurrect the human.

 

 

By the way, I suppose, that you believe, that God will resurrect us. Will you please explain us how? Lets see if the religeous resurrection plan is better than the scientific one.



#27 platypus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:12 AM

Well, that is a very long question and an as far as I know, an unsolved issue between scientists. They still argue if you can detect something without changing it during the detection.

 

The prevalent thinking today, as far as I know it, is that you actually can detect atoms without changing them.

 

How exactly the detection and the record for the current state of the universe will be performed, as I wrote above, will eventually tell you the people living after several thousand years.

I'd like to hear you expand on this idea a bit, and not give the impression that future people will solve the issue with "magic" or equivalent. What kind of measuring devices you think will be needed and where do they need to be positioned? All over the universe? I'd imagine that the measuring devices will need to be constructed from atoms and particles (unless magic is used), is this correct? Please be as specific as possible (otherwise you are not applying critical thinking).



#28 seivtcho

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 09:27 AM

How would I know the devices and the measurements, since they will appear after thousands of years.

 

What I know, is that there is no scientific law, that definitely to prohibit the realization of that idea (calculating and rebuilding back a human).

 

If you want try this at home. Take some material object, like an old radio or an old computer, disassemble it on its parts, spread them randomly in your yard, or better give them your child to hide them randomly inside your house. Then find the parts and reassemble the object once again. Can you do it? Is there some law of the physics stopping you? How about the second law of thermodynamics? Did it stop you from assembling it back altogether in a working device?

If it is possible for the radio, it is possible for each material object, no matter how complex it is, like the human.

 

 

P.S.

I noticed, that I am getting progressively ill informed recently :) lol. Whoever placed me the ill informed tags in this topic, please, explain your views. Instead of mumbling behind my back, confront me, defeat me with your views.



#29 platypus

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 10:41 AM

How would I know the devices and the measurements, since they will appear after thousands of years.

You MUST have some idea since you claim this will happen in the future. Why do you think it will be possible if you don't have the foggiest idea about what is involved??? Are they going to send picobots based on magic between each pair of atoms in the universe, LOL? 


Edited by platypus, 21 December 2016 - 11:11 AM.


#30 seivtcho

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 11:30 AM

I am never 100% sure about anything.

I always reserve at least 1% of being wrong, and try to embed it in my plans. In this view I am only 99% sure, that the deterministic resurrection will become possible.

 

I think, that the chances for the scientific resurrection based on determinism to happen are very big not because I know how, but because I know, tha no laws disallow that.

 

It is like flying you know. If we were taking a conversation about flying one thousand years earlier, I would tell you - since the birds fly, flying for people is not impossible. And you would keep asking me but how? but how? but how? I wouldn't be able to tell you how, because at that time I wouldn't know how an airplane looks like. I wouldn't be eable even to imagine it. Thats the same situation. I am telling you the deterministic resurrection scenario is possible, because nothing stops it. And you keep asking me but how? but how? but how? What do you expect me to say? Start jumping and wave with hands? Alright - start jumping and wave with hands then.

Here is a device that detect atoms:

https://en.wikipedia...orce_microscopy

here are pictures of atoms:

https://www.google.b...KHS0rBvEQsAQIGA


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