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Lies, Damned Lies, and Ketosis

ketosis ketone ketogenic diet

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#1 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:50 PM


I've been looking a lot recently at the practical side of inducing dietary ketosis. But in the process, I learned about some fundamental misconceptions which are poorly addressed by the true believers. This is intended mainly as a springboard for debate, as opposed to any specific scientific thesis. Nevertheless, I think there are several issues here that deserve scientific scrutiny.

First of all, I would encourage you to watch the video below about the Ketonix ketone breathalyzer and how it came to be. Its inventor, Michell Lundell, explained that his goal was to create a device which exploited the rough correlation between exhaled acetone and beta hydroxybutyrate (BHB) in the blood. He did this, quite successfully, such that run-to-run variation is on the order of 1%, once the user is properly trained in the correct method of exhalation.

Unfortunately, if you look at his scatter plot, it's evident that the correlation itself (between BHB and exhaled acetone) is rather noisy. I would be surprised if the results were accurate to within less then 10%, on average. He circumvents this issue by asserting that what really matters is that when glucose is rising, acetoacetate (AA) is falling, and visa-versa. Therefore by measuring the change in detected ketones, we can at least see, quite accurately, the sign of the change in glucose. But we could probably just guess that, given the amount of carbs going into our mouths.

But this is where he presents a key point about ketosis which, as important as it is, I have never seen explained anywhere else: while AA is inversely correlated with glucose, BHB is essentially independent. On the one hand, this would tend to support the notion that merely taking a dose of coconut oil would cause glucose to drop, assuming that AA increases. OTOH, it also implies that we can raise total ketones (BHB+AA) as high as we like, yet still have plenty of glucose floating around wreaking havoc as usual.

In practice, this means that exogenous ketone precursors such as coconut oil, MCT oil, Pruvit, Brain Octane, etc. are only guaranteed to raise BHB, not to drop glucose to any "safe" level.

As far as Alzheimer's is concerned, these fats are nevertheless helpful, because when ketones reach a certain level, neurons supposedly switch over to them as fuel source, regardless of available glucose. However, the glucose is still there, glycating away everything in sight. Ultimately, that fuels neurodegeneration, albeit perhaps at a slower rate on account of neuronal energy availability.

On the cancer front, the increase in BHB can only be bad news, absent a bona fide ketogenic diet. I believe this because, in the presence of carbs, all we're doing is increasing total caloric intake, and thus morbidity. This might explain, for instance, why mice fed on a high coconut fat diet die sooner than their normally fed peers, even though in theory they should be in ketosis; the answer is that they're not in ketosis at all, because the glucose provided by the carb portion of their diet is overriding the increased availability of ketones. So all those folks force feeding themselves coconut oil in the hopes of staving off Alzheimer's are probably shortening their lifespans in the interest of sanity. That would be a compelling tradeoff, but we have can have our cake and eat it too... so long as we don't eat any cake.

The only practical answer to both chronic diseases would seem to be an actual ketogenic diet. This is something like 80% of calories from fat, 15% from protein, and 5% from carbs. On the plus side, I'm not aware of any evidence that restricting calories below ad libidum intake would provide any further benefit. (I suspect it would, but then, Jean Calment lived to 122 on a ketogenic diet, while smoking and drinking to boot, with no record of any effort to maintain CR.) In other words, eat whatever you want, so long as it's fat.

Which brings me to the following damned lie: various keto enthusiasts seem to espouse meal planning from a "reasonable approximation" standpoint. So for instance, let's say that we can eat 2500 calories per day. 5% of this would be 125 calories, or about 31 g of carbs. Some 100 g chocolate bars fit within that range. Therefore, we could have one chocolate bar per day, provided that the rest of the diet consisted of fat and protein.

But in practice, we can't afford the chocolate bar at all. The reason is that, for those of us without superhuman willpower, we need at least some nuts, seeds, vegetables, mushrooms, yoghurt, avocados, or cottage cheese. None of those foods are free of carbs, and moreover seeds are probably the worst offenders considering their bias toward omega-6. Even avocados are 8% carbs. Add up all these "trace" sources, and you have your 5%!

Keto practitioners also love to rattle on about how delicious the diet can be. It can't. It isn't. It's disgusting. People who say this are confusing low carb diets with ketogenic diets. I've been doing another keto spin myself for the last 2 months. As an example, for breakfast, I had one part each of avocado and cottage cheese, submerged in 2 parts extra virgin olive oil. It tasted horrible, and though it certainly filled me up, did not satisfy me in any way even close to what that would mean to, say, a vegetarian used to eating sweet potatoes. I don't care if you think you're a carnivore because you can eat an extra large meat lover's pizza in minutes. If you've never tried a ketogenic diet, you have no idea what you're in for. And if you're vegan, you're probably going to need exogenous digestive enzymes for a while until your body can catch up with production thereof.

The other great myth is what it does for your brain. It doesn't enhance peak performance. Nor does it chelate toxic ions out of the brain. Only phytochemicals (and some pharmaceutical agents) can do that... from good old sugar sources like beets, brocolli, ginger, and kale. My peak brain performance was unmistakably higher on an ultra-high-sugar juice diet, than keto. I've spent enough agonizing days on both diets to be sure, at this point. Part of the reason may also be that glucose actually provides for higher performance over brief durations, than does fat, assuming that PDH complex and friends are in good shape; it just burns dirtier. What the ketogenic diet does do for the brain is to retard the rate of oxidation and neurodegeneration, allowing endogenous cleanup processes and very slow neurogenesis to improve one's cognitive health over several months. It also provides for moderately more protein intake than one would have on a typical vegan diet, which is presumably anabolic in the brain to some extent.

I must emphasize, having poured over supercentenarian diet anecdotes for quite some time, that we have several reports of such individuals eating significant quantities of vegetables, sweet potatoes, and even normal potatoes. The only truly ketogenic supercentenarian, if there ever were one, was Jean Calment. She beat the supercentenarian carb eaters by several years, but then there are several of the latter, so the statistics are at least questionable. Which brings me to another keto myth, which is that sugar is so evil that it overrides the benefits of even the more potent phytochemicals, and even in the context of an active lifestyle.

 

Based on the data, I would have to say that even if this is true, that it's true by a small margin which may not be worth the decades of olive oil misery. More importantly, I think we can all agree that sustainability is more important than optimality, so those who can't stand to immitate Calment would probably be better off following a carbivorous supercentenarian diet, free of dairy other than butter and eggs. For that matter, juice fanatic Charlotte Gerson is in her mid 90s and shows no signs of dementia, so it's clear that keto enthusiasts need to temper their antiglucose rhetoric with the knowledge that the right phytochemicals can significantly override glycation.

 

Which brings me to yet another myth: total carbs. Is it really total carbs that matters, or the total area under the 24-hour glucose curve? On the one hand, if we ultimately burn whatever carbs we eat, then PDH is getting hammered the same amount, regardless of whether it occurs in a 100 m sprint, or all day long while playing cards. But OTOH, the glucose in the former case isn't sitting around for very long, which strictly limits its ability to destroy things before being converted into CO2 and water. It's informative that the vegetarian supercentenarians tend to live in hilly areas lacking modern conveniences.

On the plus side on keto, I can promise you that a keto diet will give you amazing endurance. You won't have more peak energy than normal -- less, actually -- but your ability to keep moving will be unmatched relative to any other diet. You'll probably also be a bit dumber than you would on a vegan juice cleanse. But then, it's probably better to be a bit dumber with twice as much time to get things done before you feel like taking a nap.

Last but not least is the ethics question. Keto practitioners kill animals, and often those with higher intelligence who are found higher on the food chain. Their reward for this killing spree is the prospect of a longer and richer life with more energy to pursue their dreams. To their credit, those animals are spared the horrendous travails of senescence which have plagued humans for the past century. But obviously there are negatives to the killing, and probably to a larger extent, substandard animal husbandry. Vegans, by definition, don't do this at all. Does this make keto folks evil and vegans good? I don't think it's that simple, speaking as a person who is very concerned with animal welfare. Merely by just living on this planet, we're consuming resources and creating pollution because it's impossible to live without making some such negative impact. If I can kill an animal and be twice as productive in the time I have, then perhaps I can do some good deeds that would have been impossible otherwise. I could also choose to focus on less sentient sources of meat such as mussels and eggs, at the peril of domoic acid poisoning or excessive iron consumption in the former case. Or if I felt the need to eat, say, a steak, I could buy it at a bargain basement discount, so low that if everyone did the same, the beef industry would go bankrupt. There are no clean answers here; it's all a question of tradeoffs like anything else in life, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that the issue is black-and-white, or tell people "don't judge me" because we're afraid to own up to the destructive side effects of our behavior, however justified it may be. Go ahead, judge me. Just provide me with a better recipe for living. Ultimately, the solution lies in vitro meat: we need to get the animals out of animal foods.


 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 22 January 2017 - 09:58 PM.

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#2 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:05 PM

Keto practitioners also love to rattle on about how delicious the diet can be. It can't. It isn't. It's disgusting. People who say this are confusing low carb diets with ketogenic diets. I've been doing another keto spin myself for the last 2 months. As an example, for breakfast, I had one part each of avocado and cottage cheese, submerged in 2 parts extra virgin olive oil. It tasted horrible, and though it certainly filled me up

 

 

Yeah, if you do what you posted it will be disgusting. That does not mean the diet cannot be delicious because YOU are eating disgusting crap.

 

You could have done a 2 egg and cheese omelette seasoned with salt/pepper, a sliced avocado, and drizzled the whole thing with 1 tbsp of EVOO ...and it would have been far from disgusting. (78/16/6  is good enough)

 

You also might want to pay attention to fiber in determining your carb intake.


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#3 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:08 PM

On the plus side on keto, I can promise you that a keto diet will give you amazing endurance. You won't have more peak energy than normal -- less, actually -- but your ability to keep moving will be unmatched relative to any other diet.

 

 

This is only partially true. If you are keto adapted fully and at low body fat, your energy level is 100% determined by the fuel you intake. In other words, you will actually have far less endurance if you have no fat stores to draw on if you don't replace the fat you burn.

 

The good news is that energy recovery is extremely fast once you do get more fat in you.


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#4 mikeinnaples

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Posted 30 January 2017 - 08:14 PM

 

The other great myth is what it does for your brain. It doesn't enhance peak performance.

 

You need to cite a source for that. If it is purely anecdote, then my experience is vastly different. While it is true that brain function is lower for me while getting into ketosis and normalizes once I am in ketosis, once I am fully keto adapted, my brain functions way better in regards to peak performance. May the differences come from your nutrient intake or genetics? I make sure I hit all my micros (daily) along with the macros (per meal as well as daily).

 

I find that I have to supplement iodized salt and potassium on Keto. The only thing I eat that is absolutely disgusting is the potassium supplement in powder form though it is tolerable in tea or coffee in small amounts.


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#5 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:20 AM

Well, you raised some important points.

So first of all, what do you mean about paying attention to fiber for the sake of determining carb intake? If you're referring to subtracting out fiber because it's not absorbed, that would make good sense, ostensibly. Although I really wonder sometimes how food vendors actually measure that, and whether all fiber is equally indigestible, regardless of whether it's microfine like Metamucil, or macroscopic like leafy vegetables.

Gastronomically speaking, I'm with you on the omlette, although I've pretty much written off cheese because there's an ominous absence of the stuff in any of the supercentenarian diet anecdotes I've studied. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's in the yellow zone as far as I'm concerned, pending further evidence. If there is in fact a problem with it, it likely comes down to the methionine, high Ca/Mg ratio, aluminum, casein, and perhaps mold. So, if you subtract out the cheese, then you have something that burns your throat (EVOO) and smells like farts (hydrogen sulphide from eggs). Back to disgusting. But yeah, I like avocados!

Now it's interesting to me that you made this point about ketoadapted individuals perhaps being able to reach peak performance shortly after eating a suitable fat blob. I just considered it common knowledge that, in healthy individuals, peak performance was only available from glucose (and adrenaline). (Granted, T2D could turn this upside down because PDH is impaired, so healthy fat metabolism could then outperform broken OXPHOS.) From an evolutionary standpoint, it would make sense that sugar is better; were it not, we'd be addicted to fats instead of carbs, because they would have done a better job of helping us to escape saber tooth tigers. Having said that, I'm open to evidence which shows otherwise. Maybe hardcore ketone salts would do the trick, but I have yet to see a sprinter slurp down some coconut oil between sets so he can shave off another hundredth of a second.

It's good that you mentioned iodized salt. That would be an essential tool in managing the diuretic consequences. I personally had quite negative experiences with a low carb diet back in 2005, just because no one explained to me that my salt needs actually increased. As to potassium, you'll find plenty in an avocado, although they've been rather pricey of late.

 

I really don't know about my micronutrient status. That's probably something I should test, considering that fat-soluble varieties are much harder to come by than water-soluble ones.
 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 31 January 2017 - 06:25 AM.

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#6 aconita

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 07:59 AM

I've pretty much written off cheese because there's an ominous absence of the stuff in any of the supercentenarian diet anecdotes I've studied.

 

Maybe in the ones you have studied...but Sardinians do eat their cheese (mostly from sheep's milk) and are among the longest living population known.

 

From an evolutionary standpoint, it would make sense that sugar is better; were it not, we'd be addicted to fats instead of carbs, because they would have done a better job of helping us to escape saber tooth tigers.

 

Addiction is an habit and since humans started agriculture carbs habit became the main addiction, at saber tooth tigers time fat was indeed the fuel to look for since first there was not much carb food around and second it was by far more efficient in providing the energy required to run behind deers and such (apart from escaping saber tooth tigers).

 

When the time came that harvesting was all what needed to provide food energy was much less of an issue anyway (no more saber tooth tigers around and no need anymore to run behind deers).

 

Among top athletes low carbs is quite common.


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#7 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:05 PM

 

I've pretty much written off cheese because there's an ominous absence of the stuff in any of the supercentenarian diet anecdotes I've studied.

 

Maybe in the ones you have studied...but Sardinians do eat their cheese (mostly from sheep's milk) and are among the longest living population known.

 

From an evolutionary standpoint, it would make sense that sugar is better; were it not, we'd be addicted to fats instead of carbs, because they would have done a better job of helping us to escape saber tooth tigers.

 

Addiction is an habit and since humans started agriculture carbs habit became the main addiction, at saber tooth tigers time fat was indeed the fuel to look for since first there was not much carb food around and second it was by far more efficient in providing the energy required to run behind deers and such (apart from escaping saber tooth tigers).

 

When the time came that harvesting was all what needed to provide food energy was much less of an issue anyway (no more saber tooth tigers around and no need anymore to run behind deers).

 

Among top athletes low carbs is quite common.

 

Well, I was unaware of the sheep's milk (and for that matter, feta, or goat's milk) cheese. A little googling pulled up this article from NPR, based on the work of centenarian researcher Dan Buetner and his book, The Blue Zones. These white cheeses are quite distinct from typical yellow cheeses, in the sense that they tend to be softer and saltier. This implies a difference in processing and composition, although I'm not sure of the details. For one thing, I really doubt that traditional cheese makers on Sardinia (and Ikaria, for feta) are using aluminum compounds or synthetic rennet. The protein might also be less toxic for some reason. And the added sodium might actually be beneficial in a ketogenic context. But he notes that the Sardinians are only eating an average of 15 pounds per year, which comes out to a mere 18 g/day; no data is provided as to how this breaks out with respect to longevity on an individual basis. Nevertheless, thanks for adding this one precious additional source of flavor to the list of potentially compatible foods.

 

Yes, I realize that many athletes are into low carbs, which keeps them more insulin sensitive. In turn, this allows them to perform better than they otherwise would, given a sugary sports drink. I don't think genetics have changed enough since the saber tooth tiger days to change that, but I think we just don't have enough hard evidence to settle the point for sure.

 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 01 February 2017 - 07:10 PM.

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#8 mikeinnaples

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:44 PM

Now it's interesting to me that you made this point about ketoadapted individuals perhaps being able to reach peak performance shortly after eating a suitable fat blob. I just considered it common knowledge that, in healthy individuals, peak performance was only available from glucose (and adrenaline).

 

 

Actually, that isn't what I said at all. I think you misread what I posted.


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#9 mikeinnaples

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:47 PM

As to potassium, you'll find plenty in an avocado, although they've been rather pricey of late.

 

 

You would have to eat roughly 5 Avocados a day to get what you need purely from them, not to mention what you would need to potentially replenish from exercise.



#10 mikeinnaples

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 07:51 PM

Also regarding cheese, I personally stick to the Amish produced cheese.



#11 ekaitz

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 09:34 PM

I wasn't ever found on keto dieting, but wouldnt be advisable to estimate about fuel sources than glucose that won't rely on insulin, like fructose (fruit) and MCTs as an advantage? I still see glucose as the main fuel source -specially on high activity lifestyles-. but insulin secretion has a toll as well. The question is how much of these fuels could be used as fuel souces, secondary to glucose?


Edited by ekaitz, 01 February 2017 - 09:41 PM.

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#12 aconita

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:06 PM

The question is how much of these fuels could be used as fuel souces, secondary to glucose?

 

Almost none.

 

And this is exactly the point.

 

In order to utilize fatty acids as fuel efficiently one has to be trained to do it, it isn't something that happens just clicking a button.

 

It takes time and progression, as with all training, otherwise it turns out unfeasible or very unpleasant.

 

It can't be "secondary", it has to became primary, otherwise it just doesn't work and makes one quit trying.

 

 



#13 ekaitz

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Posted 01 February 2017 - 10:31 PM

I think you didn't get the point, Im not talking about ketosis. You don't eat just carbs or just fat. Since some fat is needed in the diet too, what if part of the saturated fat comes from MCT, which is very eficient at burning in the mitochondria even if you are not into ketosis state? In fact is a very clean source of energy while you don't displace the glucose as the main fuel source with it.

 

The same for fructose; the liver provide energy from its stores.. why dont replenish that part with fructose which goes straight and doesn't require insulin instead of more glucose? I see that as optimize.


Edited by ekaitz, 01 February 2017 - 10:32 PM.


#14 aconita

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 01:12 AM

It wouldn't be very practical to get most fuel from MCT, which as natural food (not supplement) is resembled more closely (even if not exactly) only by coconut oil, or fructose, which is not available in natural food without glucose or galactose as well but only possible as supplement.

 

I can't really imagine ingesting such large amounts of coconut oil or fructose supplement to satisfy the daily energy demand, plus the lack of micronutrients that comes with.

 

About fructose there are a plethora of issues really undesirable too.

 

It doesn't directly trigger insulin secretion but leads to insulin resistance and more.

 

http://ajcn.nutritio...t/76/5/911.full

 

Leads to high blood triglycerides.

 

Ends up circumventing the normal appetite signaling system.

 

It is likely to cause intestinal issues, intolerance and such.

 

....and more.

 

If there is something one whom cares for health definitely don't want is fructose.



#15 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:21 PM

Also regarding cheese, I personally stick to the Amish produced cheese.

 

Probably as a good a bet as any, if you're going to eat cheese.

 

Personally, I'd rather eat the 5 avocados :)



#16 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 06:29 PM

 

The question is how much of these fuels could be used as fuel souces, secondary to glucose?

 

Almost none.

 

And this is exactly the point.

 

In order to utilize fatty acids as fuel efficiently one has to be trained to do it, it isn't something that happens just clicking a button.

 

It takes time and progression, as with all training, otherwise it turns out unfeasible or very unpleasant.

 

It can't be "secondary", it has to became primary, otherwise it just doesn't work and makes one quit trying.

 

This is exactly why having high ketones is not the same as being in therapeutic ketosis, which was a key point in Michell Lundell's video above. However, the brain is an exception, as supposedly it will switch fuel sources when ketones are high enough, despite the presence of ample glucose in the blood. Unfortunately I have no studies showing how this threshold operates. In any event, preventing Alzheimer's is of little use if someone remains on a high-ketone high-glucose diet, which is bound to cause other spectacular problems sooner rather than later.

 

As to fructose being damaging, I don't think anyone would dispute that. But it's a hairy issue because in a healthy diet, fructose comes bundled in phytochemicals. A vegetable juice diet, or a calorically restricted vegan diet, can consistently lower fasting glucose despite the presence of plenty of fructose. It really makes you wonder what the actual tradeoffs are, when you see photos of these vegan senior citizens who look like they're 40. Or Dan McDonald, who's 43 and basically runs on orange juice, herb juices, and coconuts; to listen to the metabolic fundamentalists, he should be obese with cancer and dementia.

 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 02 February 2017 - 06:33 PM.


#17 aconita

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Posted 02 February 2017 - 10:24 PM

This is exactly why having high ketones is not the same as being in therapeutic ketosis

 

I fully agree, it seems there is a bit of misunderstanding about the difference between no carbs and low carbs.

 

Low carb will lead to ketones production enough to feed the brain without the issues due by sugar and ketones at the same time.

 

As far as I know the only way to have both ketones AND lots of glucose in the blood is by high carb AND coconut oil.

 

In absence of pathologies without coconut oil it is impossible to have both ketones and high glucose since ketones are a by-product of using fat as fuel and that just doesn't happen when there is enough glucose around, not in a magnitude of relevance anyway.

 

In vegetables fructose is very low, one need to eat 6 tomatoes in order to get 1g of fructose (tomatoes being basically the highest fructose containing vegetable).

 

http://nutritiondata...ml?maxCount=138

 

The highest dietary sources of fructose, besides pure crystalline fructose, are foods containing table sugar (sucrose), high-fructose corn syrup, agave nectar, honey, molasses, maple syrup, fruit and fruit juices, as these have the highest percentages of fructose (including fructose in sucrose) per serving compared to other common foods and ingredients.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fructose

 

Vegetarian or vegan doesn't necessarily mean eating the above foods or doing so in large amounts.

 

 



#18 Junk Master

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:03 AM

Personally,

 

I think exogenous Ketone Esters are one of the most exciting nutritional developments I've ever come across in 20 years of personal experimentation.  

 

 

When Dominic D'Agostino talks about reps about mice being hypoxic yet seizure free after immediately ingesting a bolus of Ketones in his Tim Ferris episode--

 

 

I got geekbumps...lol.

 

Imagine being able to have the benefits of a Keto lifestyle without the difficulty of compliance!  It would flat out revolutionize healthcare.  Period.

 

Then for the lifters out there, imagine all that nutritional nonsense we have been fed (pun intended) with Dominic deadlifting 500 pounds for reps after not eating for DAYS.

 

More than all the Paleo talk, the two podcasts above really started me rethinking everything I had ever assumed about nutrition, and keep in mind I've seen IT ALL, from the very first days of Venice Beach.

 

I literally shook my head the next day when I saw what the school system passes as the "Food Pyramid" as I was picking up my son.

 

BTW if my son had medication resistant epilepsy/seizures I sure would try 4/1 extremely high fat diet.  It doesn't have to be straight butter.  What about a couple avocados and some walnuts?



#19 Junk Master

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:11 AM

Oh, for those interested in experimenting, I vastly prefer Quest powdered coconut oil over liquid.   Mixes easily in coffee.  Easy on the stomach.  I also recommend KetoCaNa if you can even find it these days.

 

But keep in mind more powerful and palatable Ketone salt products are in the pipeline.

 

Tim Ferris keeps a jug of "rocket fuel" in his fridge as he mentions in the podcast.

 

If nothing else, powdered coconut oil takes Bulletproof coffee to the next level.    

 

Currently, I'm experimenting with a coffee/MCT powder/BCAA/Mushroom Extract breakfast combo with low dose modafinil, and a low dose mix of racetams that blows away anything I've experienced in terms of nootropics.



#20 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 03:30 PM

aconita, you're quite right that when it comes to organic veggies, the fructose is rather low, and probably lower than the keto crowd generally fears. Thanks for pointing that out. I've also read informed speculation to the effect that long chain starches are converted to fat by certain probiotic bacteria in the gut, which would explain why Okinawans who eat 2/3 of their calories as colored sweet potatoes seem to live so long: the bacteria are putting them closer to ketosis, despite their very low fat intake. I'm not sure how easy this is to reproduce (by eating fermented soybeans?), or what sort of bacteria would be required, but it stands to reason that the guts of these people must have adapted over many years to optimally process sweet potatoes.

D'Agostino helped to revolutionize the keto movement. But I think his results, as significant as they are, are oversold. Perhaps, for instance, you've seen his presentation about hyperbaric oxygen in combination with a keto diet as anticancer therapy for mice. The result was impressive because it doubled survival time. But we have to keep that in perspective, as expected survival time for some cancers is measured in months. Do you really want to spend the last days of your life drinking oil, especially when we have some reason to believe that a vegetable juice diet would be similarly effective? To each his own. Granted, you can argue that following a keto diet prevents cancer in the first place, which may be true, but this only works if you can stick to it on a permanent basis. I admire those who can; I'm not sure I can.

As to ketone esters, I've tried them. Not straight, mind you, because they're apparently more disgusting than gasoline, but in the form of Keto Kreme from Pruvit. Pruvit delivers them in a mixture with casein and some other undesirable additives, but it does seem to work in the sense that I notice a temporary improvement in my jogging endurance and sense of smell. I'm not sure how long I could hold out against the additives, however. And the price is a few bucks per pack, each of which being less than 200 calories. I wouldn't bet that trading phytochemicals and starch for ketone esters and artificial additives is a net positive, especially after adjusting for the extra cost that could go toward supplements. Now, if you don't want the additives, you can go for KetoOS, which is also less expensive. But then you're looking at staggeringly high sodium with comparatively little potassium. The whole problem here is that it's apparently impossible to make ketone esters palatable without all these additives, unless of course you were to prepare them in your kitchen and mix them directly into vegetable juice. (Perhaps that's a worthwhile experiment.)

More to the point, even keto extremest Petro Dobromylskyj thinks they interfere with free fatty acid (FFA) metabolism, achieving negligible benefit over long term use:

https://high-fat-nut...-dangerous.html

On the flip side, vegetable juice diets are an anathema to science, mainly because it's impossible to be precise and there are far too many variables to analyze. And then there's the whole ethics problem with animal products. The net result is that these two camps tend to ignore if not despise each other, when the optimal diet is probably a hybrid of both.

Watch it on the racetams, Junk Master. Do a local search for "burnout", "damage", and "brain fog" with "piracetam". Not everyone crashes and burns, but it's a lot more common than I'm personally comfortable with. I'm not a big fan of coconut oil powder, either; have you ever read the ingredients in that stuff? And walnuts? They seem to make me dumb and keep me hot all night, unable to sleep. Mushroom extract and modafinil sounds promising, though.



#21 Heisok

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Posted 03 February 2017 - 09:09 PM

Resveratrol_guy,

 

The Keto Kreme does not contain any Ketone Esters. It is a Ketone salt. The salt in its' case is Sodium. Look at the label, and you will see the approximately 900 mgs of Sodium. The Beta Hydroxybutyrate listed alone as an ingredient is a little misleading as one has to look at the Sodium to figure out that it is bound to Sodium in this case.

 

I doubt that anybody around here has looked at, and thought about, Dr. Bredesen's work more than you. Back in 2014, his battery of potential therapeutic interventions depending on how a patient presents includes "Patients given choice of several low glycemic, low inflammatory, low grain diets. (Minimize inflammation, minimize insulin resistance.) " and  "MCT effects (Coconut oil or Axona) I forget at this stage whether these two interventions were modified as described in his most recent video , as they have had a large increase of potential interventions. I think this path would be best for myself at least.

 

Is there supporting research for Dr. Veech's claims?  In a recent interview Dr. D'Agostino mentioned that he did not see any, but he would at some point mine his data for any supporting information he might have, but he doubts the assertion that the Mct's cause any decreases.

 

 

 


Edited by Heisok, 03 February 2017 - 09:13 PM.


#22 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 06:52 PM

Resveratrol_guy,

 

The Keto Kreme does not contain any Ketone Esters. It is a Ketone salt. The salt in its' case is Sodium. Look at the label, and you will see the approximately 900 mgs of Sodium. The Beta Hydroxybutyrate listed alone as an ingredient is a little misleading as one has to look at the Sodium to figure out that it is bound to Sodium in this case.

 

I doubt that anybody around here has looked at, and thought about, Dr. Bredesen's work more than you. Back in 2014, his battery of potential therapeutic interventions depending on how a patient presents includes "Patients given choice of several low glycemic, low inflammatory, low grain diets. (Minimize inflammation, minimize insulin resistance.) " and  "MCT effects (Coconut oil or Axona) I forget at this stage whether these two interventions were modified as described in his most recent video , as they have had a large increase of potential interventions. I think this path would be best for myself at least.

 

Is there supporting research for Dr. Veech's claims?  In a recent interview Dr. D'Agostino mentioned that he did not see any, but he would at some point mine his data for any supporting information he might have, but he doubts the assertion that the Mct's cause any decreases.

 

I stand corrected on Keto Kreme. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

I don't debate that the keto diet is probably the best in the world for just about any health objective. My question here is mainly whether it's possible to sustain, or even worth it, given highly competitive alternatives like the Okinawan diet, which actually have flavor and don't shun carbs in the form of long chain starches. The danger in the keto diet is that it if you can't completely hack it, then you end up with excessive carbs, protein, or both, which rapidly dumps you back into the danger zone.

 

The only bad thing I've heard about MCTs is that they supposedly spike insulin. (I read that on Petro's blog somewhere.) But this isn't necessarily a bad thing in light of their benefits, assuming you can stand to consume them.

 

Bredesen seems to be very much on the keto side of things. This might explain why his method, although having reversed some quite established AD cases, has failed to help about half his patients. I suspect the problem is adherence. If I were him, I'd tell people to try keto for a month, then flip back to Okinawan if it fails. I might well end up there myself.

 

 


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#23 Heisok

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Posted 04 February 2017 - 09:25 PM

Thanks for the insulin MCT connection. I will have to research that one as I definitely have borderline blood sugar control. I consume 2 to 4 tablespoons spread out per day of C8 Mct's. No distress at all from it even at 1 tablespoon in a beverage. You have tried a lot of things, and I respect your opinions. Wish this stuff was easier..... My hope is to maintain my current level of control long enough for there to be regenerative therapies. Hopefully less than 10 years.


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#24 aconita

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 02:09 AM

Very low carb diet is very easy and pleasurable for some and more difficult for others, for some it is very sustainable at really low carbs while for others slightly more carbs makes things working better.

 

Possibly this is because different genetics or lifelong nutritional habits.

 

Vegan and low carb don't go well along and it might be unsustainable or unpleasant for most.

 

In order to allow for metabolic processes to adapt efficiently a slow and progressive approach will make things much easier.

 

I personally can't relate at all to flavorless or unsustainability issues about low or very low carb diets.



#25 Heisok

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 04:04 AM

I found some of Petro Dobromylskyj's writing, and subsequent comments concerning MCT's, butter and other fats related to insulin. I was a little worried after the first post in 2009.

 

In 2009: "Physiological insulin restisance: Guess what?" http://high-fat-nutr...ance-guess.html

 

In 2012: "Protons: The pancreas"  http://high-fat-nutr...s-pancreas.html

 

I was somewhat relieved by this statement in his 2012 writing:

 

"Please excuse the C8 value; as we all know, MCTs are shunted directly to the liver via the portal vein. They do not seem to feature too prominently in pancreatic superoxide generation and insulin secretion. It would take a ton of reading to see why and how they are handled differently to longer chain fatty acids. For the time being let's stay looking at C16 and longer as these make a much tidier story..."

 

My takeaway is to be more careful with my MCT intake. It has crept to a higher level due to attempting to maintain my weight after dropping my 24 hour fermented strained greek yogurt. Got a little worried about the amount of Casein that eating 12 ounces per day of that I was getting. Sorry to have taken your topic off on a tangent.

 


Edited by Heisok, 05 February 2017 - 04:05 AM.


#26 Junk Master

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 06:09 AM

Thanks for all the contributions above!  This thread has really turned into an education for me, unearthed all sorts of potential areas of research.

 

I tend to rotate walnuts, brazil nuts, cashew nuts, and also am eating an increasing amount of fatty fish.

 

I'm not at all adverse to reasonable amounts of kale, chard, Brussel Sprouts, Broccoli, and as of late have started to consume considerable quantities of broccoli sprout seeds.

 

Sort of think Broccoli sprout seeds could be a real game changer since they are a higher source of Sulforaphane than even broccoli sprouts and I find them a pleasant textural addition to small salads topped with fatty fish.

 

All in all, as for the palatability of low carb diets, I really believe there might be a genetic component as aconita mentioned, but the longer one adjusts to low carbs, as especially to a lack of refined carbs, the less taste for them one has.

 

In fact, for some time I was practicing more of a 5 day keto, two day recomp diet, as advocated by the infamous Dan Duchaine (learned from Dr. Mario di Pasquale), but found I became high carb adverse after a number of "recomp" weekends.

 

Now once or twice a week I eat some ice cream, or a couple cookies-- sadly mainly at night.  I really should be doing that pre post workout meal.

 

What will be very interesting is I'm beginning to ramp up my running mileage in prep for a June marathon.  I've never tried to stay low carb while running high mileage.



#27 aconita

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 07:04 AM

but the longer one adjusts to low carbs, as especially to a lack of refined carbs, the less taste for them one has.

 

but found I became high carb adverse after a number of "recomp" weekends.

 

Absolutely.

 

2 carbs days a week plays more as a psychological factor than anything else, when one starts to gradually eliminate carbs from the diet the carbs addiction makes things difficult and knowing in a few days time everything craved will be allowed again is perceived as a great relief, it makes much easier to hold on the plan.

 

As times passes by the carbs addiction, as with all addictions, starts to fade and carbs aren't perceived anymore as so desirable, actually foods that previously tasted delicious will became quite disgustingly too sweet.

 

After a while there will be no reason for the 2 days/week carbs anymore, at that point low carb is easy and pleasurable.

 

sadly mainly at night.  I really should be doing that pre post workout meal.

 

Absolutely not, actually the exact opposite!

 

For someone whom is training the best and only time to have carbs is AFTER training, before is a no no.

 

Glycogen stores will be replenished in way or another after few hours since depletion, when full there is no more room for more.

 

After training glycogen stores are depleted, at least to a certain degree, eating carbs after training will provide fast and metabolically easy glycogen replenishment which will stop catabolism and create the right conditions for protein synthesis.

 

Before training glycogen stores are full, in a way or another, and carbs have nowhere to go but to get stored as fat, an insulin spike is triggered which starts an undesirable hormonal cascade leading to sleepiness and lack of motivation, not something welcome before a training session.

 

It is common knowledge to not eat before training because it blunts performances, it is just not correct.

 

An athlete can eat as much as wished just immediately before training or competition as long as no carbs are ingested (if the appropriated metabolic adaptations are already in place).

 

There are instances in which for an athlete would be advantageous to consume relatively large amounts of carbs but it has to be always after training, only on training days and has nothing to do with promoting health (I am not sure if it would be detrimental, irrelevant or advantageous health wise but definitely it isn't that the aim).

 

Once fully adapted to low carbs running a marathon on fats should be fairly advantageous.

 

 


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#28 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 03:02 PM

aconita, I find your hypothesis of a genetic component intriguing -- perhaps involving APOE4. Considering that their lives largely predated keto science, I can offer no other reasonable explanation for why Jean Calment and Sussanah Mushatt-Jones, for example, would have resigned themselves to a life of animal products dripping in oil. As far as I can discern from the available anecdotes, they had no religious reasons for their diets, and actually just liked what they ate.

I like the idea of a weekly "carb window", although I've personally been in keto for months at a time, confirmed in urinalysis, and still found it disgusting. (Supposedly in truly keto-adapted individuals, urine ketones drop off over time because the body learns to utilize them better and begins to retain them in the plasma; I cannot claim any such personal experience. Anyone with informative data would be a hero here.) I just had some sardines in olive oil, for instance, solely because they prevent Alzheimer's and cancer. (And yes, I need to tell myself that just to be able to eat them!) Having finished them, I feel ill and fundamentally unsatisfied. My only solace is that when the disgust fades, I'll have good energy and a sharp head. Oddly enough, though, I have no desire whatsoever for refined SAD diet carbs. My natural predilection is more toward nuts and sweet potatoes, which are both huge complex carb sources.

I like the idea of a weekly "carb window", allowing it to dimish naturally over time. Anyone contemplating keto should try that; I never did.

Junk Master, kudos on the brocolli sprout seeds. Sulphoraphane is fabulous. (Just make sure that you're not getting seeds pretreated with pesticides! Oh, and you might want to run a plasma mercury test, depending on the type and quantity of fish you're ingesting.)

Heisok, thanks for your analysis of Petro's MCT theory. I should add that, as you can find in his blog, he claims to survive by resisting insulin. In other words, he thinks that (limited) insulin resistance is actually a necessary side effect to a keto diet, apparently because it prevents glucose from hitting the floor and killing us. So in this narrow context, the mild hyperinsulinemia resulting from MCT consumption would seem safe and appropriate. I'd like to see some statistics, but presently I see no reason for alarm. Personally, I find it easiest to consume as c60mct, when mixed with various supplement powders. (MCT mixed 50-50 by volume with ProHealth Longvida is almost delicious. Just don't inhale the powder, as it's loaded with SiO2. And don't have too much because it will turn you into a 24/7 artist.) BTW, I agree that 12 oz/d of greek yoghurt is on the high side, although I don't think zero probiotics is optimal, either. As for Petro, his prodigious intellect is a compelling testament to the power of the diet. Well into middle age, the guy is still an outright genius. I also find him arrogant and sociopathic, but unfortunately those disorders aren't precluded by a healthy hippocampus.
 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 06 February 2017 - 03:05 PM.

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#29 Heisok

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Posted 07 February 2017 - 05:36 PM

resveratrol_guy, Thanks for the information here, and in Lostfalco's thread. This thread also has a lot of food for thought from other members (literally if we are lucky) 



#30 resveratrol_guy

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Posted 24 February 2017 - 01:11 AM

You're welcome, Heisok. I've reached something of an epiphany about what may be going on here.

 

After a solidly nauseating 3 months of keto, I just today took an HbA1c measurement. It was 4.8%, which is far from diabetes and in fact lower than my 7/2009 reading of 4.9%, and indeed lower than anything since. Moreover, that 2009 reading was obtained during 44/4 intermittant fasting (a 4 hour eating window per 2 days). Despite such spartan fasting and significant catexia, I had to sleep extensively because I had very little energy. OTOH, I was eating complete nutrition plus some very entertaining junk food like crackers, so it wasn't all bad. So it does seem that my metabolic health is presently excellent, from both an HbA1c and an overall energy standpoint.

 

You probably think I'm a convert. I'm not. In fact, I've decided to quit, and disgust is only the minor reason. The main reason is actually sleep disruption. I think this deserves a note in the annals of keto hype, so here we go...

Thanks to the first post by ta5 on this page, I'm now aware of the connection between zinc transporter 3 (ZnT3) and glutamate (AKA glutamic acid, a close analog of glutamine): (1) if ZnT3 is impaired, not enough zinc makes it into the neuron, which allows glutamate to run rampant across the synapses and (2) ditto for neurodegenerative calcineurin activity. This is the best explanation I've ever found for why a modest fraction of the population, including me, considers zinc to be a nootropic. Indeed, for years, I took supplemental zinc on and off because someone had told me it was good for my skin. And indeed, I found that if my skin started cracking, a few days on 50 mg zinc gluconate rapidly cleared the problem for a while. I sort of suspected that I had a zinc transport problem because I seem to do better at zinc levels which are supposed to be above the tolerable upper intake, but in any event never understood the cognitive connection.

Now, there was an Alzheimer's trial mentioned in that thread which attempted to use zinc to attack the disease, mainly by suppressing copper, and in particular the copper-2 which nucleates brain plaque. At first glance, it failed, but as mentioned in the cited paper, the trial was a considerable success when applied to older patients. It's unclear whether copper suppression or the normalization glutamate and modulation was more important, but obviously both matter.

I took a day, here and there, to see what happened if I ate low carbs with veggies instead of standard fat and protein keto. I could think better, probably because I could sleep better, and my tinnitus was lower. This is consistent with healthy glutamate modulation. It's also consistent with a lot of other things, but over the years I've become an expert on proper sleep habits, so the effect stands out quite clearly. Less cheese, less chicken, less fish, and fewer nuts -- all huge glutamate sources -- correlates with better sleep and the knockon benefits of better alertness and memory.

I always said my mental performance was better on a high-sugar juice diet, or an intermittant fasting vegan diet, with an egg yolk here and there to keep things stable, and now I know why. More glutamate plus less zinc gives rise to a noisier brain, which inhibits perception, cognition, and sleep. It's metabolic heaven and cognitive hell. (There might be times when it's advantageous, for example, during math problems or visualization tasks, but not when one is trying to sleep. Frankly, broken ZnT3 might explain a lot about my relative success in mathematical pursuits.)

How low is your own cognitive noise? Try this: Sit in a dark room. Put on a sleep mask. Put your hands over the mask, so that no light penetrates at all. What do you see after your eyes adjust to nothingness? Is it pitch black, or merely "dark" with a faint bluish white ghosting that changes with time? The intensity of the latter state seems to correlate with glutamate consumption and poor sleep, in my case. I only wish I had known this back in 2006 or so. I had converted to a low carb diet back in 2005, and by late 2006 I was suffering from profound sleep disruption due to a combination of misdiagnosed apnea and massive glutamate consumption (as "healthy" keto foods like whey and nuts). I remember how I would close my eyes in an attempt to sleep, and everything would look blue. It was "glutamate aura". (I actually suspected that at the time, because I was at least smart enough to realize that there was a lot of glutamate in whey, and MSG was bad, so maybe excess glutamate was bad too. Unfortunately, I just wasn't sufficiently informed.)

If all this sounds alien to you, and you're happily sipping away on your bulletproof butter coffee, then be thankful that your zinc transport is working properly. But if you try keto to improve your memory and you fail, don't just assume that APoE4 is the culprit (not that I'm actually convinced that impaired cholesterol transport makes keto any more challenging than it already is). Try zinc gluconate and dietary glutamate restriction on an otherwise healthy but not necessarily low carb diet. Pass the purple sweet potatoes! No wonder the Okinawans live so long.

Want to know how much glutamate is in 100 grams of food? Try this.
 


Edited by resveratrol_guy, 24 February 2017 - 01:31 AM.

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