105 replies to this topic

[Nate-2004]

I am starting a thread on lower back pain that began off-topic in another thread. Here are the relevant posts to start. I don't know if supplements is the right category because the fix is unlikely to be a supplement.

 

I've tried several different mattresses, there's no mattress in existence that helps with lower back pain, no matter what they advertise.

 

If there were an aeron mattress like my aeron chair, maybe, but they don't seem to be making one of those. 

 

I sleep on my side and back. While I'm asleep I have no control over that position, normally I wake up halfway between back and side and in pain, so getting back fully on my side with a pillow rammed up my crotch is the only way I can get rid of the pain, till I wake up again, pillow fallen out and me somewhere in between side and back. It's hopeless IMO, nobody can design a bed that covers all positions. I'd love an anti-gravity bed where you just sleep in a floating position.

 

I've tried literally *everything* people suggest *but* a water bed. My parents had one when I was a kid and I don't recall it being all that comfortable to sleep on. Probably the wrong thread to talk about lower back pain.

 

I exercise (HIIT) 4 times a week for 30 mins combined with full bodyweight calisthenics, I also use the sauna for 20 mins, sometimes twice back to back.

I do yoga style core building exercises after HIIT while stretching.

I have tried every mattress there is, I travel a lot too so I've been on a lot of different mattresses, none of which are any good. Sometimes I think I found one that works, but that only lasts a day.

 

The only thing that seems to relieve it for most of the day and sometimes even more days is hydrogen water combined with infrared light therapy.  The problem with the "therabulb" I got at first is that it eventually, after three weeks or so, started to burn my skin no matter how far away I set it. So I got this pad with a bunch of 660nm and 830nm LEDs on it that does the same job so far I think. This is just treatment though, not cure and not a root cause (sleeping in a bed) fix.  

 

That episode of Louis comes to mind where Louis CK goes to the doctor about his back pain and the doctor just tells him it's age, a loss of cartilage and collagen and the spine isn't designed well for upright walking. It was a funny episode but something along those lines.

 

On an further Off Topic side note, I cured 5 inoperable crushed (not yet fused) lumbar discs with just a week's worth of Ostarine SARM pills. I went from being unable to sit up in bed to lifting luggage without pain. I can't vouch for anyone else's results but this fortunately worked for me.

 

@DareDevil I've not tried Ostarine yet. I don't think that's my issue but who knows? 

[sthira]

Just my opinion here, of course, but I think part of the back pain problem (beyond the structural misalignments and cracked pieces, the trapped nerves and bone spurs, etc...) may also be learned response. My own method has been to do whatever I can (safely) to stop the pain and inflammation for as long as possible by whatever (safe) means available. That is, I've been reasonably successful at stopping my brain from learning particular zones of pain too well. That may sound bizarre, but for me it has been rather effective, and pain is inevitable no matter what we do. I've put my body through some serious shit that bodies just weren't meant to do -- deep bends, twists, overarching lumbar lifts and dives, constant leaps and pounding on precious joints... and dangling... and lifting other people...

Massage works. For me, Rolfing works. But not everyone. Studded and hard rollers work. Icing the shit out of body parts works, and then deep heat. Some topicals work -- for me Tiger Balm is the shit, and it may be totally placebo, I merely smell it and feel better. For many others, capsaicin or Ben Gay work. For me, Iyengar yoga and deep breathing relaxation into the pain works. Breathe into the pain -- right straight into its heart -- and then "add space..." IOW, I don't "push the pain away" rather face that evil mister head on. When that fails (as is often) Ibuprofen and Jarrow Curcumin has worked really well for me. My goal is to stop the pain for as long as possible by whatever works in my own body. Your body is very different, obviously, so your methods will be also very different. But we're all humans, so there's a big degree of universality to lower back problems. And it's not all age related -- I've worked with 14 year olds who've been through serious back pain issues -- so it's another one big problem for science to solve beyond just drugging our agony away and turning us all into addicts.

Edited by sthira, 19 April 2017 - 09:28 PM.

[ambivalent]

sthira, you've never found improvement from prolonged fasting?

[sthira]

sthira, you've never found improvement from prolonged fasting?

Yes, thanks, I totally have found that fasting works. But I tend to think I extoll the virtues of fasting too much here on this site -- fasting as a cure all -- so I'm trying to tone down my fasting language. PLUS: I know the online Nate well enough now to know he ain't gonna fucking fast no matter what I write, haha, I say that good naturedly, no offense intended, Nate, because I was also gonna mention an anti-inflammatory diet really helps me -- every bit of the puzzle helps -- but Nate hates broccoli and leafy greens.

Yes fasting helps! But for me, it doesn't help during the fast, when pain can become a nightmare. Rather, it helps after the fast once my body has calmed the inflammation down, worked its body magic, and then refeeding probably stimulates regrowth and brain chemistry that helps both heal and deal.

Edited by sthira, 19 April 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Despite my hatred of broccoli and leafy greens I get them every day in Rhonda Patrick's Smoothie #2. I broke down and bought a Vitamix. I can hide all the good stuff in the good taste of fruit and ground flax. My diet is largely anti-inflammatory right now. Lots of unsaturated fats from almonds, peanut butter and flax as well as lots of magnesium. I also take curcumin and I try to avoid the cox inhibitors like Ibuprofen because it's terrible on gut health. I won't fast, you're right. I will eat right for the most part though. I think I'm getting at least 30g fiber from multiple sources of all colors daily as of the last 2 months and energy wise I'm good, but the pain is still there. I thought I'd solved it with an infrared bulb I got on Amazon, but just turns out it burns my skin after a while and stops working after a month. Go figure, hurry up and use it before it no longer works.

 

I may try fasting again soon but I need to find a set of days where I'm not working or doing anything that requires a lot of mental energy, where I'm not around people because I'll kill them if I'm hungry. I'm taking MK-677 again after cycling out of it. It is helpful for back pain but it doesn't last long for some reason.

 

I'd like to hear more about Ostarine.

[sthira]

I'd like to hear more about osterine, too. But for me I tend to think everything exotic is usually placebo. For me! If osterine was the shit for healing broken necks, we'd already know. Of course I'd love to be wrong and just ignorant of some magic chem that's being suppressed or ignored by evil big pharma.

And yet when someone comes along and reports hey y'all I cured crushed discs with with some good shit, well, we sit up and take notice if we trust that person. I guess the thing I ask is is the stuff masking the pain, just dumbing down painful symptoms, or did it change brain chemistry and the relationship to pain? Because if it works to make you feel better after just a week of treatment, clearly that's not enough time to heal broken pieces. So it's probably tamping down inflammation, which may flare again, or it's doing something inside the mind of the user.

Nate, I didn't mean to suggest diet or fasting would work to cure structural problems right away. Have you had imaging? Have you seen the Oh-doc (Orthopedist?)

Where is the pain and what do you think caused it? Is it overuse and maybe hip tendinitis? Sometimes lower back problems are fucking tricky and originate in the neck, and how your neck sits atop your spine and how you move your body through space. Do you sit a lot? Are you sedentary and overweight?

[aconita]

Obviously what you are doing isn't addressing the root of the issue, I am not saying it isn't healthy and it isn't worth...it certainly is but not for your back pain.

 

Reasons can be many but lets start with more common ones...

 

Posture.

 

Check your lordosis, the natural curve of the lower back, do it standing by the side in front of a mirror: too much of it is the most common cause of lower back pain.

 

It is caused by an imbalance of muscles that leads the pelvis to be tilted forward, if that is the cause of the issue tilting the pelvis backwards while in pain should provide immediate relief.

 

That's not the cure but just the proof of the nature of the issue.

 

Check it out and let know how it goes.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordosis

 

and pain is inevitable no matter what we do

 

Not at all!

 

Pain is a very important message the body sends to warn about something is wrong, wrong isn't normal, is...WRONG!

 

Fix what's wrong and there will be no need for sending warning messages = no pain.

 

That's normality.

[sthira]

The ways some of us use our bodies, yes, pain is 100% inevitable. You're now gonna say what everyone else says: well, if that particular motion hurts then don't do that. But that's just not the way some of us have chosen to live our lives and careers.

Of course pain is an important message from the body. But that message often has little relationship to the body's motion range and abilities. Sometimes pain is emotional, sometimes it's just the mind is tired, or the mind hasn't seen the body in this position in awhile so the mind thinks oh shit, time for "pain" signals. Often pain is indeed structural -- I'm not saying it's not, god knows -- but "pain" is far more nuanced. We can talk ourselves both into and out of pain in an instant; pain is a trickster. The human mind is an amazing organ.

One more item, then I'll flee, often "addressing the root of the issue" is simply impossible even with the finest doctors using the clearest images, looking right into the heat of the broken piece. The pain may be entirely elsewhere from where the mind signals the pain to exist. IOW, that lower back pain may indeed show herniated discs that once put back together again do not stop the pain. And, other times, that image showing what appears to be a clear case of a broken body part has no pain symptoms whatsoever at that location. Indeed the weird body and mind may be pushing that pain elsewhere in the body -- the way the toes are broken and angled, for example, may be causing no toe pain, but plenty of neck pain.

[Nate-2004]

I'd like to hear more about osterine, too. But for me I tend to think everything exotic is usually placebo. For me! If osterine was the shit for healing broken necks, we'd already know. Of course I'd love to be wrong and just ignorant of some magic chem that's being suppressed or ignored by evil big pharma.

And yet when someone comes along and reports hey y'all I cured crushed discs with with some good shit, well, we sit up and take notice if we trust that person. I guess the thing I ask is is the stuff masking the pain, just dumbing down painful symptoms, or did it change brain chemistry and the relationship to pain? Because if it works to make you feel better after just a week of treatment, clearly that's not enough time to heal broken pieces. So it's probably tamping down inflammation, which may flare again, or it's doing something inside the mind of the user.

Nate, I didn't mean to suggest diet or fasting would work to cure structural problems right away. Have you had imaging? Have you seen the Oh-doc (Orthopedist?)

Where is the pain and what do you think caused it? Is it overuse and maybe hip tendinitis? Sometimes lower back problems are fucking tricky and originate in the neck, and how your neck sits atop your spine and how you move your body through space. Do you sit a lot? Are you sedentary and overweight?

 

I could have some imaging done I guess. I don't expect much to come of that which is why I haven't bothered. Doctors are still pretty useless in this area. They'll probably tell me about some kind of surgery which isn't worth the risk and doesn't change anything.  I don't think anything in particular caused it, it's just gotten worse over the past 13 years. I assume it's that the disks were wearing down. I did a lot of weight lifting back in the day and my guess is it got compressed a bit too often.

 

It's mostly around the bottom of my spine and hips. It hurts to stand for too long and bending over can be a pain. Lately I've gone through strange bouts of zero pain like I said, with the red light and mk-677 and hydrogen water but it's not lasting, it comes back or stops working.

[Nate-2004]

I agree with both of you to some degree but I'm with Aconita that we shouldn't have to feel pain and it means something is wrong for sure. What I think is wrong is that I've been walking upright and using my back for 42 years (43 tomorrow). I think age has worn down the disks but more so there's a lot of inflammation that began back in my heavy weight lifting days.

[aconita]

If at 43 your discs are worn out what 70 or 80 years old people should do?

 

Heavy weight lifting may be a cause but necessarily because worn out discs, check your posture as above suggested.

 

...and anyway humans are not meant to crawl around neither. 

[Nate-2004]

I think my posture is pretty normal actually, it's improved dramatically over the course of my life. I don't think that's the issue really. I see myself on camera a lot and that's not typically something I notice about myself. I do sit at a desk a lot but I have good chairs that I sit in, at the office and more so at home with my aeron chair. 

 

I'm actually skeptical about the more CAM/Alternative "Medicine" stuff like acupuncture and chiropractic. There's been too much evidence showing it's placebo at best and a scam at worst. Nothing wrong with placebo of course but I'd rather not pay for things with such limited supporting evidence. Granted I say that when I use the red lights but there's not a lot of unsupportive evidence there either. I'm still baffled about those. They do need more research on that as well as hydrogen water. 

 

I think I'll get some imaging done for sure, but I fully expect a ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ after the diagnosis. Their hands are too tied down by tort systems, patent systems and the FDA to try anything promising.

 

I think the pain has been worse this week and I don't want to attribute that to the dasatinib necessarily but who knows? 

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 April 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Rocket]

Ostarine does not heal discs. If it did, I would have a new spine by now. Whomever is saying that Ostarine healed their discs had better back it up with irrefutable data. No SARM, no peptide, and no steroid will heal a disc.

 

[adamh]

Chiropractic works for some people, depending on what is wrong. If its a misalignment then drugs, heat, etc are only going to temporarily help. Also posture as has been mentioned, a good chiro should be able to give tips on that. I have found that ultrasound helps a lot with arthritic conditions. Use as directed for 5 or 10 minutes moving over the site of pain. It helps my back ache but its too hard to do myself. 

 

I have started using bpc 157 orally as I mentioned in another thread. It has knocked out some tendon and possible carpal tunnel pain. My elbow and knee also seem better and this is after just a day! I will continue for the 2 week period and then evaluate. I bought 4 vials of 5 mg and may only need one, lol. It was way worth it, spent only $65 and have loads of back up. Returning to the subject of backs, I also have low back pain from over a decade ago, no doubt soft tissue damage. I can't say the bpc cured it but since starting I no longer notice discomfort or at least its a lot less after just a few days. It comes and goes so that is not definitive. Hydrogen helps me with arthritic discomfort as does the US. I suspect a multi pronged approach will work better than just one thing.

[Nate-2004]

The placebo effect is so common in the area of chronic pain that it's hard not to say that everything people try works for most people for a couple weeks.

 

 

I made an appointment with an Orthopedic so I'll know what's up. I'll ask what he thinks of chiropractic.

[sthira]

He hates it.

[Nate-2004]

Oh I'm sure, I mean, just reading the Wikipedia article on it is enough for me to not bother with it. I'm sure it may provide some placebo but from what I hear from friends who've done it they say it takes "many treatments" which just means it's about as effective as therapy is on depression, which is hardly at all and probably a placebo that rarely lasts if you've been doing it your whole life. Not to sound negative here or dismissive but I'm looking for real solutions as are many others I think. I went to the orthopedic for my neck pain one time about 12 years ago as well, they did an MRI and pretty much pointed out what "could be" the issue, a disc that was slipping forward, but had nothing else they could do. I wonder if, in 12 years, any advancements have been made, at all, I seriously doubt it. I actually thought they'd have cured baldness by now. My neck pain is largely gone now and was probably due to anxiety issues I had up until I'd conquered it, since it mostly felt like muscle tension. 

 

I am open to trying anything, but I'm really wary about chiropractors, they can end up doing way more harm than good and they believe whacky 19th century ideas and many of it mix it into some sort of quasi-pagan religiousness or spirituality. I'm an atheist so...

 

My core should be pretty strong, I do planks on all sides. I do lots of crunches. Not sure what else I could do in the meantime. My appointment is Tuesday, I'll pay them a copay to get a prescription so I can pay an imaging center a copay to scan me then come back and pay a copay for them to look at the image, tell me what's wrong, offer up something risky, expensive, with a long recovery time, and not really worth it, then go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when I ask what can be done and what about all this new 3D printing stem cell crap?

 

Edited by Nate-2004, 20 April 2017 - 09:56 PM.

[aconita]

I am open to trying anything

 

No, you wish so but actually you aren't.

 

I do lots of crunches

 

...which likely are worsening the issue if not causing it in the first place.

[Nate-2004]

 

I am open to trying anything

 

No, you wish so but actually you aren't.

 

I do lots of crunches

 

...which likely are worsening the issue if not causing it in the first place.

 

 

What am I not trying that's legitimate and at least somewhat evidence based or does not come with a lot of warning labels? Posture is fine, I've had doctor's check that over the years. I've gone through dozens of mattresses, I've tried heat, core strengthening, not doing weighted squats, making sure I have good chairs.

 

I don't see how crunches would make it worse, I do them the way the majority of people suggesting core strengthening for lower back pain say to do it. How else do you strengthen it? Human flags? 

[aconita]

Crunches worsen back pain or even cause it because the psoas muscle is heavily involved therefore developing a tendency to shorten, which is exactly what causes bad posture (iperlordosis) leading to back pain.

 

Since you are not mentioning pain irradiating along the back of the leg (ischiatic nerve) I think a lumbar slipped disc (hernia) is quite unlikely therefore compression in that area unlikely to be a cause...but anyway activating the psoas when training the abs leads to considerable pressure on the lumbar vertebrae.

 

Crunches are just a bad exercise for back pain.

 

Majority of people don't have a clue about training properly.

 

The fact you or some doctor thinking your STANDING posture is OK doesn't necessarily mean that's true, since it is likely the main cause for the kind of back pain you seem to be reporting I would be cautious to rule it out.

 

To formulate a diagnosis from a forum discussion has limits, of course...but maybe we can get somewhere, if you wish.

[sthira]

I pretty much agree with the uselessness and possible harm caused by both chiropractors and crunches. Again, you could look into Iyengar yoga, they specialize in learning how to hold and move your body with alignment sensitivity. Not just any ole gym yoga: Iyengar-specific. Their teachers train for literally decades, and they do a lot of back and neck alignment work. Hips, legs, feet, arms, shoulders -- everything's connected. And while I agree strengthening "the core" is important, there are right ways and wrong ways about it, and these might be specific to you.

The orthos will poke and prod you, put you under a scan, then say they're not sure, they think it may be so and so or such and such. Then they'll encourage surgery and drugs for pain.

You're right that the snails pace of progress is just so very discouraging. For all of us. What can we possibly do to encourage more progress?

Crunches worsen back pain or even cause it because the psoas muscle is heavily involved therefore developing a tendency to shorten, which is exactly what causes bad posture (iperlordosis) leading to back pain.

I'm agreeing with this. Tight psoas can cause all manner of bullshit. Especially if you're seated a lot. Back pain can also be about tight hamstrings and IT band. Or tight hips. Most males have really tight hip flexors.

I don't know you, but i know the general body trends, and would encourage you to think about stretching and elongating your body. Your fascia is probably really wound up tight; I honestly don't know how people survive these bodies without some form of regular stretching or therapeutic yoga.

Edited by sthira, 20 April 2017 - 11:19 PM.

[Nate-2004]

Thing is though I didn't do crunches for years until just recently in the past few months so it's not the cause but I am open to it exacerbating the problem.

[Junk Master]

There's a recent Joe Rogan podcast that touches on placental stem cell therapy, and other recent treatments for discs that hold great promise.  The rub is they are all not covered by insurance, thus effectively only for the wealthy.

 

#945 with Dr. Roddy McGee, I believe.  I just erased it.

 

It's not his best podcast but it's a start.

 

In my case, the best thing I ever did for my back was STAY ACTIVE and begin doing goblet squats, then back/front squats again.

 

I'm also a huge proponent of foam rolling.  I find with my psoas muscles, it's the only technique where I can get "release."  I can't do the roll on a tennis ball thing.

 

The other thing I would highly recommend is Charles Poliquin's initial high dose fish oil recommendation!

 

Fish oil has worked wonders for my joints and I've been to the hospital twice for bulged disks, as well as had two rotator cuff surgeries.

 

I'm also super curious about BPC-157.  I've heard amazing anecdotes about this sub q peptide.

[zorba990]

Inversion from the hips with a big elestic band helped my lower back tremendously.

http://www.allthings...h-rubber-bands/

I leave my head on the floor so there isn't even any issue with excessive blood to the head, although I am looking at doing full inversion soon.

I also highly reccomended the mobility WOD videos....lots of free ones online. Voodoo bands fix lots of issues....

[aconita]

Voodoo bands for back pain, mmmmm.....I am locking forward to see that.

 

By the way, a bicycle inner tube cut open lengthwise provides a perfect voodoo band for free (since you can use a punctured one, of course).

[zorba990]

Voodoo bands for back pain, mmmmm.....I am locking forward to see that.

By the way, a bicycle inner tube cut open lengthwise provides a perfect voodoo band for free (since you can use a punctured one, of course).

Yup, very top of the hamstrings really helps hip release. Watch your privates....

[aconita]

I guess it might help for tight quads, especially if fascia adhesions are involved (which isn't a totally remote possibility)...

 

Mechanism of action is actually unknown, really, but very interesting topic indeed as Kaatsu training is (likely sharing at least some).

 

Still not fully sure it would work very effectively for back pain but a try costs nothing.

 

 

[Nate-2004]

Never heard of voodoo bands but they do cost something. Might be worth a try tho. Maybe I can hang from one of the things at my gym somehow.

[aconita]

You missed my post above: make yourself a pair with old inner tubes for free.

[sthira]

Voodoo bands are great, as are therabands for so many things. Still gotta learn technique, though, and there are great youtubes for learning how, what, why. I've never tried busted rubber bicycle tubes, but I like it. As far as inversion tables go, the free version is supported shoulder stand -- salamba sarvangasana -- https://www.google.c...d-shoulderstand. Just takes a few folded blankets, a chair and a wall. Speaking of walls, "legs up the wall" -- Viparita Karani -- http://www.yogajourn...p-the-wall-pose -- is great for setting legs back into hip sockets, common misalignments which sometimes causes lower back pain. Lay flat on your back with your butt pushed up against the wall, and stretch your legs up the wall. I'm doing this one right now, do it frequently, it's great. BKS Iyengar was poor, and he believed the healing potential of yoga should be for everyone, not just the rich Brahmins. The trick is -- it doesn't do itself, and you still have to learn some technique. Or go to class, where everyone's chill. These are the tip of the iceberg poses of restorative yoga, and there's a very good reason why millions of people do it for many bodily discomforts beyond lower back pain.