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Fasting Help

fasting

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#1 Nate-2004

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 04:05 AM


So after having watched this interview I'm more convinced that I should try a 3 or 4 day fast again. 

 

 

Many of you know me by now. I've tried to fast a couple of times now and I can't make it more than 8 hrs before my outrageously ravenous appetite, sour mood and inability to think drives me to eat. I honestly don't know how to go about it. In fact, given my insomnia, I can't even sleep if I'm hungry, so I'm not sure how I'd even get through the night if I made it that far.

 

I've seen a number of threads on here about how to deal with hunger, from distraction to drinking fizzy water. I will say that when I'm hungry, it's all I can think about, distracting myself is useless because I can't focus. I wanna try it because of its benefits but it seems like the worst kind of hell to me. 

 

Do appetite suppressants interfere with the benefits of fasting? If not, what kinds of suppressants would be most recommended?  Can green tea and coffee be drunk during a fast? I assume the coffee can't have cream? What about night-time and sleep? I normally don't drink coffee past 3 because I am so insomnia prone that I have to keep very good sleep hygiene. 



#2 HaplogroupW

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 06:32 AM

You can do it Nate-2004! I've done some extended fasting over the last few months. Here's what worked for me. No promises that my experience applies to you in the same way.

 

 

 

I will say that when I'm hungry, it's all I can think about, distracting myself is useless because I can't focus.

 

 

Yes I found it distracting at the beginning. I found the best way to get through this is to begin the fast as a "fat fast", until I got into ketosis. That is: I'd add heavy cream to coffee (not milk, which has lactose, galactose which are carbs). I found it oddly filling, and it provides some medium chain fatty acids that can power the brain, and I would feel much better.  Why cream on a fast? Because cream is almost all fat, and fat does not provoke an insulin response. The goal is to get switched over to running on fat instead of sugar, to get through the hard part of the fast. Once the body figures out that there is a large store of energy in adipose tissue and switches over to it, one feels much better. It's the transition that can be a little rough. An alternative to heavy cream is MCT powder or oil, which can be bought pretty cheaply. It's probably better than cream. Once the ketosis kicks in, I can withdraw the cream and do a full-on water fast. But even that isn't necessary, e. g.  Valter Longo has published on the fasting-mimicking diet which has results similar to fasting.

 

Another thing that can make people feel sick during a fast (or keto diet, called the "keto flu"), is the loss of electrolytes due to the natriuresis of fasting: the kidneys for whatever reason give up a lot of salt. The homeostatic response is to eliminate fluids to keep the salinity constant. People feel better by taking a salty broth (like the buillon cubes, or veg broth). Or whatever your favorite electrolyte is.

 

I also read and observed personally that exercise is a good natural appetite suppressant. I ride the bike, and doing it on the early days of the fast made me feel better.

 

 

 

Can green tea and coffee be drunk during a fast?

 

Yes, I chain-drink green tea. And some coffee.

 

Another strategy you might consider is: instead of jumping straight into a fast, switch to a ketogenic diet, to get into a state of nutritional ketosis. There your insulin levels should be nice and low, and starting a fast should be relatively drama-free. If you're not familiar with keto, this is a pretty good place to read up: https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq

 

For a while I was alternating between a few days of fasting, and several days of regular (non-low carb) eating. It would take me several days to get back into ketosis when I started the fast, even with exercise. Once in ketosis I felt really good. So I started looking around at how to stay in ketosis when I ended the fast, and decided to try a keto diet. I've been keto ever since then.

 

Jason Fung just posted 29th in a blog series on fasting:

https://intensivedie...lin-fasting-29/

I'd go read through them all. They have practical advice and review relevant literature. I find it helps motivate me.

 

 

 


Edited by HaplogroupW, 04 May 2017 - 06:35 AM.

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#3 Nate-2004

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 01:45 PM

This is really helpful. I don't know how I will feel after starting ketosis. Maybe I'll feel great like people say, but the plan is to just get to ketosis for a couple of days and start a 3 day fast. I figure that since I absolutely hate vegetables and the only way I can safely avoid malnutrition is to hide them in fruit smoothies, and I can't have fruit with a ketogenic diet, then my best bet is to just use the ketogenic diet as an entry point to a 3 day fast. The video above mentions 4 days for whatever reason but I'd heard 3 days was what it took to achieve what was discussed. 

 

Then I'll probably go back to my regular diet until the next round of fasting.

 

There is one thing the reddit article doesn't mention at all, and that's flax seeds, ground. It mentions whole grains in foods to avoid.  It also mentions that polyunsaturated fats should yield to monounsaturated fats. 

 

flax.jpg



#4 Oakman

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 03:29 PM

Nate, I've tried fasting in different forms, and here's my experience, and the 'Best method' that I successfully using now. I'll skip the details of the failed methods, just the minimum to understand.

 

1. Keto diet - yea I've done this one for real. It kinda bites. It's hard, the foods are limited, and it was not fun. I did get there, testing with Keto urine strips and all. And I did lose weight. But I know I'd ever be able to stay on this program, as I'm not that into suffering.

 

2. IF over days is hard too. Again, it's like torture. First you can eat, then you can't. I can't do this. I need habitual routines to stay on course, not start and stop ones.

 

3. CR is fairly easy compared to the others, but requires you to stay alert to what you're eating and drinking, and again, it's way easy to overindulge once you get started, or at least I find that the problem.

 

But recently I REALLy wanted to get 10-13 lbs off, and to hopefully get into some autophagy states along the way. But for various health reasons, it hadn't been happening. So I came up with a combo diet that ACTUALLY works, plus I can stay with it. I'm 9 lbs down from a couple months ago (going from 160 to 151, on my way to 147). Much of this is the dreaded middle area fat, and it was just hard to get rid of, and so very frustrating.

 

Pretty simple really, a modified CR+IF combo, and it does not limit that much - really. It is based on a two-a-day meal plan with optional evening snack, depending on how hungry I feel.

 

- Breakfast of about  400 calories, consisting of one Vann's power grain protein waffle, with applesauce and mixed fruit on top (raspberries, strawberries, blueberries). The protein and fiber fills and satisfies well. Maybe an apple or pear or banana afterwards.

 

- Mixed aerobic and strength exercise 1-1.5 hrs lasting until 11ish. Drink lots of water. I've found this activity removes hunger feelings, so I just don't have the urge to eat afterwards. For me exercise makes me feel way full, very helpful!

 

- Delay lunch as long as possible up towards 2PM-ish. So really 12:30-2:00 is good. Then I have a good sized lunch with fiber, protein, carbs... 400-800 calories. All healthy stuff, not sugar stuff and/or desert (except fruit). 

 

- Ideally, that's it until morning. The late eating makes me NOT hungry at dinner time, and bedtime comes fairly fast. But often I get psychologically hungry 7-9 PM and can't get it out of my mind, so then for a snack, I'll have a normal sized salad or some nuts and a fruit. Just nothing major or huge calories.

 

- I also created an acronym as a reminder of what absolutely NOT to eat EVER - NO ICCCC (Ice)  or Ice cream, Cakes, Cookies, Chocolate, Candies

 

The result is a steady, but gradual weight loss, and it seems fairly easy, and like I said it's becoming a habit, a daily grind if you will. So I don't feel deprived (much), and just look towards my goal of 147lbs. The CR and IF lifespan and/or healthspan effects this may provide are a bonus.


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#5 Nate-2004

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 03:33 PM

Thanks! I'm not trying to lose weight with this, I'm just trying to achieve the positive anti-aging effects of fasting. I figure I only need about a week to do this every few months perhaps. Some say a week out of every month but we'll see about that.



#6 Nate-2004

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 07:12 PM

Another question. What's the opinion on fasting or keto and sauna use. It seems water loss is a huge concern and staying hydrated is important, just wondering if I should not use the sauna during these periods. Then again people said exercise helps with hunger but I sweat a few gallons when exercising.

 

I'm not entirely sure about this strategy but as soon as I find a good two week slot, once I've finished this cycle of MK-677, I'm going to give it a shot. So here's what I plan to do.

 

Monday May 15th: Begin Ketogenic Diet

Tuesday May 16th: I should be in ketosis at that point.

Friday May 19th: Begin 3 day fast.

Monday May 22nd: Re-feed.

Tuesday May 23rd: Begin intermittent fasting.

 

Ultimately the goal is anti-aging related on a number of markers (senescent cells, insulin sensitivity, etc) to get through a 3 day fast and hopefully get my body to adjust to being able to do intermittent fasting.

 

I still want to know whether appetite suppressants like ADD meds help or hurt or negate the positive effects of a 3 day fast.


Edited by Nate-2004, 04 May 2017 - 07:26 PM.


#7 Florian E.

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Posted 04 May 2017 - 09:52 PM

Another question. What's the opinion on fasting or keto and sauna use. It seems water loss is a huge concern and staying hydrated is important, just wondering if I should not use the sauna during these periods. Then again people said exercise helps with hunger but I sweat a few gallons when exercising.

 

I'm not entirely sure about this strategy but as soon as I find a good two week slot, once I've finished this cycle of MK-677, I'm going to give it a shot. So here's what I plan to do.

 

Monday May 15th: Begin Ketogenic Diet

Tuesday May 16th: I should be in ketosis at that point.

Friday May 19th: Begin 3 day fast.

Monday May 22nd: Re-feed.

Tuesday May 23rd: Begin intermittent fasting.

 

Ultimately the goal is anti-aging related on a number of markers (senescent cells, insulin sensitivity, etc) to get through a 3 day fast and hopefully get my body to adjust to being able to do intermittent fasting.

 

I still want to know whether appetite suppressants like ADD meds help or hurt or negate the positive effects of a 3 day fast.

 

I'm currently also experimenting with ketosis. See: http://www.longecity...ndpost&p=813966

You could add exogenous ketones (with electrolytes) to your diet to help push the metabolism more towards ketosis. Also significantly reduces feelings of hunger.


Edited by Florian E., 04 May 2017 - 09:53 PM.


#8 gill3362

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 06:37 AM

Ive been fasting on and off for some years now, so I think I can provide some help for you. 

 

I started "training" for a full on water fast with intermittent fasting. I know some above weren't too keen on it, but it has changed my life (I don it everyday now) and made the transition into a big fast much easier. I suggest you start with 16/8 style IF (essentially this is only skipping breakfast) and stay on this plan for 3-4 weeks until you are not distracted by the hunger anymore and move to 18/6 style, stick with this for 3-4 weeks, then cut the window down to 20/4, and so on, you get the idea. 

 

When you are rocking along with this, you are ready to either do a 5/2 intermittent fast, which means 2 non-consecutive days per week, you don't eat at all. OR you can try a FMD cycle. 

 

Fasting Mimicking was developed by Valter Longo out of USC and essentially achieves the anti-aging benefits (and some weight loss) of pure water fasting but you get some food. You have two options on this. You can set up your own cycle that adheres to the study criteria (find all the info to do that here) or you can buy a prepackaged system that mails instructions and all supplies needed to run your own FMD. FULL DISCLOSURE: I am affiliated with this company.

 

To read about the pre-packaged system, called LifeBox, go here. And to purchase it, go here. (Again, FULL DISCLOSURE: I am affiliated with this company. This product is not necessary to run an FMD, it only assists in simplifying the process.)

 

Now, I view the FMD as a transition phase towards pure water fasting. After you have some weeks or 5/2 under your belt or 2-3 FMD cycles, take on a full water fast. 3 days is the minimum because it will probably take that long to get into ketosis. However, I suggest once you are in ketosis to just go for the 5 day fast if you feel up to it. I usually feel fantastic after I reach ketosis. 

Other people's ideas of the keto diet for a week or two leading up to the fast is a great idea. 

 

I also suggest you get some powdered MCT oil (like this) to mix in your coffee in the morning while intermittent fasting. It helps with hunger and keeps the energy levels up. 

 

I know that may sound complicated, but I promise it is a pretty simple idea. 

As always, I am here to answer any other questions. 


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#9 Nate-2004

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 04:28 PM

The main issue here is that I have already tried to start Intermittent Fasting twice and failed at it, because I just can't seem to go that long without food. I get angry, irritable, unable to think and it's a mess. So I figure there's another way to go about it. I like this ketogenic diet idea because I've not tried it and I am hoping it helps me overcome the hunger barrier that I face in the first couple of days.

 

I am aware of FMD but it poses the exact same problems as IF.

 

If I'm already in ketosis after 4 days of ketogenic, then it might help if I transition from that into a fast. I don't know. I'll try that first and report back here on how it's going.



#10 gill3362

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 07:40 PM

The main issue here is that I have already tried to start Intermittent Fasting twice and failed at it, because I just can't seem to go that long without food. I get angry, irritable, unable to think and it's a mess. So I figure there's another way to go about it. I like this ketogenic diet idea because I've not tried it and I am hoping it helps me overcome the hunger barrier that I face in the first couple of days.

 

I am aware of FMD but it poses the exact same problems as IF.

 

If I'm already in ketosis after 4 days of ketogenic, then it might help if I transition from that into a fast. I don't know. I'll try that first and report back here on how it's going.

 

I mean, just to be honest with you man. It just isn't all roses. When you first start fasting, it sucks. 

I suggest you start on a weekend so your work is not affected and just suffer through what you have to. 

 

If it was easier, everyone would be at it. 

 

Definitely try the keto route to help, but maybe go for a few more days than 4, it can take some people longer to go into ketosis.



#11 Oakman

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Posted 05 May 2017 - 11:11 PM

Thanks! I'm not trying to lose weight with this, I'm just trying to achieve the positive anti-aging effects of fasting. I figure I only need about a week to do this every few months perhaps. Some say a week out of every month but we'll see about that.

 

 

Another question. What's the opinion on fasting or keto and sauna use. It seems water loss is a huge concern and staying hydrated is important, just wondering if I should not use the sauna during these periods. Then again people said exercise helps with hunger but I sweat a few gallons when exercising.

 

I'm not entirely sure about this strategy but as soon as I find a good two week slot, once I've finished this cycle of MK-677, I'm going to give it a shot. So here's what I plan to do.

 

Monday May 15th: Begin Ketogenic Diet

Tuesday May 16th: I should be in ketosis at that point.

Friday May 19th: Begin 3 day fast.

Monday May 22nd: Re-feed.

Tuesday May 23rd: Begin intermittent fasting.

 

Ultimately the goal is anti-aging related on a number of markers (senescent cells, insulin sensitivity, etc) to get through a 3 day fast and hopefully get my body to adjust to being able to do intermittent fasting.

 

I still want to know whether appetite suppressants like ADD meds help or hurt or negate the positive effects of a 3 day fast.

 

Nate, doing a ketogenic diet is a personal learning process. You'll need trial and error to get keto dieting right (w/testing).  I don't understand the "re-feed" part, you're on a keto diet, why fly off for a day? Second, you'll be losing weight with keto unless you are into stuffing yourself with keto food. Plus, there's a good chance, if not a certainty that you'll lose weight. There aren't that many heavy keto diet or IF people.  

 

I look at it like this. The body has two states. One, it's digesting and/or assimilating energy. That takes about 12 hrs max, then the body switches and draws on itself, regenerating, autophagy, longevity processes, etc. The diet I mentioned switches from assimilating to drawing on the body at ~12 hr mark with 4-6 hrs of repair time before the next meal. Rinse, repeat as long a s desired.

 

Longer time onKeto or IF fasting extends the regenerate time, but is it better to do this as a daily process cycle, or simply occasionally, but longer? Maybe someone has tested for that? I don't know, but the shorter version is easier for me.

 

Also consider doing whatever you decide as clean as possible, without  'anti-hunger' crutches. It's your body, make it do what you desire, don't depend on 'something' to help you thru. It's not particularly fun or easy, so make it something YOU did yourself.  If you can't get thru it, it was you, not some supplement's fault. If you do succeed, you can repeat anytime.

 

Exercise is a great thing to do during this. Exercise kills hunger, weirdly! It also revs up bodily rejuvenation processes!

Sauna is a great thing to do (I prefer steam room). Thermal stress is a wonderful way to initiate the longevity processes!

 

My own notes when I last did smthg like you're contemplating were, "Days 1-5 maximize Calorie Restriction effects, thru diet, intermittent fasting, heat, and CR mimic supplements, all aimed to induce autophagy."  So besides CR & CR supps, I did an hour daily of steam/sauna/hot tub rotation at our club. Good for your body, plus a nice reward.  Good luck whatever you try...;)


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#12 Nate-2004

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 12:12 AM

Nate, doing a ketogenic diet is a personal learning process. You'll need trial and error to get keto dieting right (w/testing).  I don't understand the "re-feed" part, you're on a keto diet, why fly off for a day? Second, you'll be losing weight with keto unless you are into stuffing yourself with keto food. Plus, there's a good chance, if not a certainty that you'll lose weight. There aren't that many heavy keto diet or IF people.  

 

 

 

I look at it like this. The body has two states. One, it's digesting and/or assimilating energy. That takes about 12 hrs max, then the body switches and draws on itself, regenerating, autophagy, longevity processes, etc. The diet I mentioned switches from assimilating to drawing on the body at ~12 hr mark with 4-6 hrs of repair time before the next meal. Rinse, repeat as long a s desired.

 

Longer time onKeto or IF fasting extends the regenerate time, but is it better to do this as a daily process cycle, or simply occasionally, but longer? Maybe someone has tested for that? I don't know, but the shorter version is easier for me.

 

Also consider doing whatever you decide as clean as possible, without  'anti-hunger' crutches. It's your body, make it do what you desire, don't depend on 'something' to help you thru. It's not particularly fun or easy, so make it something YOU did yourself.  If you can't get thru it, it was you, not some supplement's fault. If you do succeed, you can repeat anytime.

 

Exercise is a great thing to do during this. Exercise kills hunger, weirdly! It also revs up bodily rejuvenation processes!

Sauna is a great thing to do (I prefer steam room). Thermal stress is a wonderful way to initiate the longevity processes!

 

My own notes when I last did smthg like you're contemplating were, "Days 1-5 maximize Calorie Restriction effects, thru diet, intermittent fasting, heat, and CR mimic supplements, all aimed to induce autophagy."  So besides CR & CR supps, I did an hour daily of steam/sauna/hot tub rotation at our club. Good for your body, plus a nice reward.  Good luck whatever you try... ;)

 

 

My only goal is the fast, if keto helps me get there that's great. The re-feed part is after I am done fasting. I'm going off ketogenic and fasting at that point. I don't wanna do ketogenic forever, I wanna get fruits with veggies and preferably go into intermittent fasting instead, eating what I normally eat now. I can only get my veggies when blended with fruits like bananas and blueberries because I hate the taste otherwise. Therefore I can't stay with ketogenic. Based on the video I posted, a 3 or 4 day fast is all it takes to do what needs to be done. Not sure how often, but doesn't matter since by then hopefully I'll be able to pull off doing intermittent fasting.

 

Also I'm at my ideal weight, tho I don't mind losing any pudge if that ever happens, that would be great. Any fat loss is always a plus. I just don't wanna look gaunt, face wise.


Edited by Nate-2004, 06 May 2017 - 12:14 AM.


#13 gill3362

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 05:51 AM

As far as the not liking veggies thing, you may be interested in this article: Retrain Taste Buds.

 

I can tell you without a doubt, I am proof, that retraining taste preferences is very much possible.


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#14 xEva

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 05:44 PM

Nate-2004, do you have a glucose meter? You should get it and use it. Sounds like your drop in glucose may be too sudden.

 

To get over the hump you can eat a little something. It could be a spoonful of MCT oil or even glycerin, which is "a carb" left after triglycerides are stripped off FAs. It tastes sweet, if you have not tried it. As a last resort you can even have a bit of juice -- something to temporarily rise your glucose levels or give you some energy to go further.  The important thing here is not to consider that this bit of food means that you 'broke the fast'. It's just an aid to help you over this hurdle. Make sure it's not more than a few grams. 

 

Going for a brisk walk, especially if the weather is cool to cold will help too, and probably is the best. The worst thing is to stay in a stuffy warm room. 

 

Then you should consider that there is something about your metabolism. What you describe is not normal. Sounds like your body rebels, and it's not wise to ignore your instincts. Though, I know, it's hard in the beginning. Is it the instinct or am I low on will power, right? Be kind to the animal within and reason with it, sort of:  we will wait 15 mins, and if this hunger does not go away, then we will eat. Often the discomfort goes away or lessen considerably. But if it persists, you should listen to it.

 

Then there are chronic subclinical infections, usually viral, that activate upon fasting. Specific symptoms may not be there yet, but the animal within already knows instinctively that food is what is needed 'NOW!' Something to consider too.

 

In the meantime, set one day a week when you attempt to fast and see how long you manage each time. Try not to do it chaotically or it may lead to an eating disorder. On the set day, try to extend the period of fasting by a few hours each time and keep a log. 

 

and measure your blood sugar!!!


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#15 xEva

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Posted 06 May 2017 - 08:24 PM

re:

 Do appetite suppressants interfere with the benefits of fasting?

 
I don't think so. Have no refs for this though. But I think that lack of appetite is the sure sign that the body is getting energy from within, at the core of which must be autophagy. Appetite suppressants must work by stimulating the right metabolic pathways -- otherwise on what the body is running? As far as I'm concerned, autophagy and lack of appetite go hand in hand. 

 

Though super high levels of certain hormones may overstimulate catabolism, but we're not talking about the extremes here. An appetite suppressant should not stimulate adrenaline too much. Otherwise what you get is the same thing as after a fit of rage, which, in my experience, once (and never again   :))  this alone rose my blood glucose to 115-120 (from a baseline of ~72) and kept it there for 20+ hrs (!) This was on 3rd-4th day of fasting. In contrast, when it finally came down, I ate a slice of pineapple (just to compare) and my sugar rose to 105-110 15 min later and was back to 70 in an hour. 

 

Again, see? it boils down to blood glucose levels. If an appetite suppressant raises blood sugar as if after a good meal and keeps it there for hours on end, that can't be good. The blood sugar should not go over 75 on a fast, I don't think.  

 

 


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#16 Nate-2004

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 07:09 PM

Though super high levels of certain hormones may overstimulate catabolism, but we're not talking about the extremes here. An appetite suppressant should not stimulate adrenaline too much. Otherwise what you get is the same thing as after a fit of rage, which, in my experience, once (and never again   :))  this alone rose my blood glucose to 115-120 (from a baseline of ~72) and kept it there for 20+ hrs (!) This was on 3rd-4th day of fasting. In contrast, when it finally came down, I ate a slice of pineapple (just to compare) and my sugar rose to 105-110 15 min later and was back to 70 in an hour. 

 

Again, see? it boils down to blood glucose levels. If an appetite suppressant raises blood sugar as if after a good meal and keeps it there for hours on end, that can't be good. The blood sugar should not go over 75 on a fast, I don't think.  

 

I don't have a glucose meter but I'll probably get one for this purpose. We'll see what happens. I'm not sure what you mean by the above situation but I assume you're saying that I should probably avoid any appetite suppressants that spike the adrenaline too high. I'll just avoid taking anything that does that at first. I'll weaken the coffee but drink a lot like others said. 

 

Let's just see if I get through the ketogenic portion of this, I imagine it's not easy at first.  I start Friday.


Edited by Nate-2004, 07 May 2017 - 07:09 PM.


#17 Oakman

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Posted 07 May 2017 - 07:52 PM

For the keto diet, be sure to get some Ketone test strips, like these from Walmart, or just about any drugstore. When I started doing the Keto diet, I was both surprised and dismayed how long it actually took to get into ketosis as shown thru these test strips. Once you do get there, it's sort of a personal victory, as you know you've "won" so to speak, and are actually "living on fat" thru your metabolism, rather than using the typical glucose metabolism.

 

Without this testing, you really ahve no idea if what you are doing is working.


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#18 xEva

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 02:40 AM

ALCAR

I don't have a glucose meter but I'll probably get one for this purpose. We'll see what happens. I'm not sure what you mean by the above situation but I assume you're saying that I should probably avoid any appetite suppressants that spike the adrenaline too high. I'll just avoid taking anything that does that at first. I'll weaken the coffee but drink a lot like others said. 
 
Let's just see if I get through the ketogenic portion of this, I imagine it's not easy at first.  I start Friday.

 

 

Yes, though I have not actually looked into appetite suppressants, I know that some work by upping adrenaline. But even if so, this must be a matter of dosage. How much is too much? Only a test can tell. The easiest test at home is a glucose meter. The one by the same brand as Oakman suggested for ketones is dirt cheap and in my experience very reliable (once I checked it just before an official blood draw and the diff was only 1 mg/dL).

 

I also did not mean to imply that an appetite suppressant should be taken throughout the fast. It should help you get into it. The first day or two only (on the third you should be in ketosis and => not hungry).

 

I think it's naive of you to think that ketogenic diet is easier. I think it only prolongs the misery of adaptation.

 

The fastest way to get into ketosis is fasting. That's how ketogenic diet is traditionally started for epileptic children: they fast them for a day and off they go (children go into ketosis quicker than adults). A ketogenic diet, depending on actual composition + total cal per day, may take quite a while before you find yourself in ketosis. And dietary ketosis is not quite the same thing as metabolic ketosis. This means that you cannot avoid going through the same misery of adapting to low blood sugar levels, with irritability and brain fog or even headache that often accompany it.

 

That's why I would simply correct the drop in blood glucose with a timely supplement (I suggest a spoon of glycerin). What this basically does is it compensates for your liver, which has not yet learned to transition to ketosis smoothly (which it will with practice). It gives the brain and the rest of the body a bit of energy it needs to get over this hump (and I'd add an alkar capsule to that spoon of glycerin). All you need is a little push, cause you're almost there. You quit just before that. (I think -?)  

 

Indeed, only a test will tell you what is going on. You should check your sugar throughout the day when you fast. (and also when you don't, since you've never done it -- it's very instructive and teaches you a lot in a very short time -- otherwise it's just guessing).


Edited by xEva, 08 May 2017 - 02:47 AM.


#19 Nate-2004

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 02:47 AM

Why glycerin? Alkar? ALCAR you mean? Why ALCAR?  Well timed? 

 

I dunno if I could go straight into a fast, it's never worked but then again I guess ketogenic would probably prove just as difficult I guess. Maybe I should get some Adderall after all.


Edited by Nate-2004, 08 May 2017 - 02:48 AM.


#20 xEva

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Posted 08 May 2017 - 03:39 AM

Yes ALCAR, sorry for typo. If you don't have glycerin, don't bother. Have some fruktose instead. The problem with glucose is that it is antithetical to ketosis. 
 
I liked glycerin, 'cause I happened to have it, and it tastes very pleasantly sweet and it goes well with ketosis,  Same goes for ALCAR.  
 
RE:

" it's never worked " 

 

That's what I'm telling you how to make it work, man. imo you need help to get over the transition itself. Sounds like you have never done it, and if so, then it's not easy. But you need to do it only once. 

 

PS

i.e.: you take a bit of fruktose w/ALCAR instead of breaking your fast, as you usually end up doing. And you continue fasting. ok?


Edited by xEva, 08 May 2017 - 03:53 AM.


#21 Nate-2004

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 03:01 AM

Does fish oil or krill oil break the fast?



#22 gill3362

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 05:11 AM

Does fish oil or krill oil break the fast?

 

Some leading thinkers on fasting, and purists in general, like Rhonda Patrick and others would say yes, it does break the fast.

 

There is some research showing that ingesting ANYTHING stops the autophagic processes, even black coffee. 

 

That being said, I take fish oil in the morning when I fast and don't worry too much. It is essentially pure fat, which does little to nothing to raise insulin or blood glucose, so I would say go for it. 

 

You can also look into "bulletproof IF" in which you put some coconut oil or MCTs into a coffee to start the day. I think it helps with energy levels a bit. 



#23 Nate-2004

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 12:35 PM

Shit black coffee breaks the fast??? WTF I neeeeed caffeine, I can't both fast and try to come off caffeine simultaneously. I'd freaking die.


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#24 gill3362

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 01:46 PM

Shit black coffee breaks the fast??? WTF I neeeeed caffeine, I can't both fast and try to come off caffeine simultaneously. I'd freaking die.

 

No, no, no, man. Keep drinking the coffee, you misunderstood me. 

Enjoy the coffee and the fish oil. No worries.



#25 Nate-2004

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Posted 10 May 2017 - 07:01 PM

Rhonda had this to say:

 

 

 

Nathan, the reason even zero calorie coffee is included is because it sets off a cascade of metabolic activity in the liver. This is especially relevant for time-restricted eating where part of the emphasis isn't just depriving oneself of calories, but better facilitation of natural oscillations that should match a circadian pattern of eating, light exposure, etc. This is probably somewhat less relevant when we're talking about prolonged fasting. I would personally omit most supplements either during a prolonged fast or outside my eating window in the context of time-restricted eating... however, to play devil's advocate, if it were strictly necessary that you omit it when doing a prolonged fast then the hyper low calorie fasting-mimicking diet, which has shown to be similarly effective to prolonged fasting in some contexts, probably wouldn't work. Looking to hopefully do another podcast with Dr. Satchin Panda sometime soon to explore the differences between his time-restricted eating philosophy and that of intermittent fasting, especially as it pertains to xenohormetics and coffee. I think it will be helpful for a lot of these sorts of questions.

Edited by Nate-2004, 10 May 2017 - 07:07 PM.

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#26 Nate-2004

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 09:50 PM

Someone asked earlier in this thread "Why refeed?".

 

Someone posted this video in the same forum here the video with Dr. Valter Longer: 

 

 

He explains why.

 

So I'm presently in ketosis now and I've been testing with urine strips which show varying degrees depending on my water intake. I'm about to start the fast now.

 

I do still have some concerns around whether I should drink coffee or not but I feel I really have no choice in the matter. I don't think I can handle a fast without it. It's hard enough to quit coffee while eating, I can't imagine not drinking coffee while fasting. I don't think given Dr Patrick's answer that it's going to be an issue. Hard to say whether or not studies involved coffee or not.

 

I do take green tea extract on an empty stomach and I did want to know if I should keep taking this as well as Nicotinamide Riboside or Grapeseed Extract or magnesium and potassium. Should I? People kept stressing magnesium and potassium for ketogenic but not sure about straight fasting. What about vitamin C?


Edited by Nate-2004, 13 May 2017 - 10:10 PM.


#27 sthira

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:46 PM

Drink coffee and take the supplements you like. On a short introductory fast these probably won't matter; the idea is you want to introduce your mind to a fasting practice. Think more psychology here at the starting gates than physiology. Your body (assuming you're as healthy as you say) will handle a short fast just fine.

But if I were you, I'd start more slowly and casually, and I'd think about extending time between meals before engaging in a long fast that might discourage you. Think of fasting as a lifestyle change rather than a one time cure all. Ease into it -- start small, note progress and reaction, then proceed with self awareness.

It's fun!
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#28 Nate-2004

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:50 PM

Thanks Sthira. I might do that instead of going straight extended, or just see how long I can go. I was thinking of doing this extended fast maybe twice a year is that often enough? With intermittent fasting between that time.


Edited by Nate-2004, 13 May 2017 - 10:51 PM.


#29 sthira

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:51 PM

I started by just skipping meals. Then as I learned more about how my body reacted, I'd elongate the time between meals. This works for me because frankly I've never been a foodie or crazy about keeping regular three meals per day.

You seem to be much different from me, though, and you've noted elsewhere that you have adverse reactions to skipping meals. So I'd start by skipping meals. Maybe skip dinner and don't eat again until the following day's lunch?

It helps me to keep notes and set silly little personal goals. Like, for me, it's fun to count hours between meals and see if I can beat yesterday's numbers. Sounds dumb I know. But if I fasted 16 hours yesterday, today I may try 18 hours. That sorta thing works for me.

Edited by sthira, 13 May 2017 - 10:59 PM.

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#30 Nate-2004

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 10:52 PM

What?







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