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Wanting to use Ethanol/PG and Dmso as a carrier for sublingual drugs

dmso ethanol pg mk-677

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#1 Elkaer

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:23 PM


Hello Everybody, i am new around here but have been lurking a lot the last couple of years :)

 

I was thinking about either using a mix of DMSO and ethanol or DMSO and PG as a carrier for mk-677

 

I have 1 gram of pure mk-677 base, and want to increase absorption sublingually.

 

(mk-677 does suck water out of the air too, so working with it in powder form has other downsides too)

 

I want to make a batch where 0.1 ml is equliviant to 10 mg of mk-677.

 

This would mean that i would have to use 50ml of Dmso and 50ml pg/ethanol  and mix it with 1 gram of mk-677 to

make the batch, am i  right in this?

 

also i would like to hear from anybody who might have done this? what solution would be best?

DMSO-ethanol / DMSO-PG (if ethanol is preferred, what kind am i looking at? this is 96% http://171.dk/shop/f...neste-186p.html

would it do?)

 

also i would like to start a discussion about sublingual administration in generel, it would be nice if we could improve absorption of 

the sublements we take, i was thinking about creating a sublingual solution for PQQ  because there is very little science of how much

is absorbed. (also thinking of during this with melatonin, http://warddeanmd.co...otent-nutrient/ is a very interesting article about melatonin especially the part about it being a mitochondrial resusciator is interesting)

 

Regarding DMSO i am led to believe it is very good at increasing absorbrion, and have been experimenting with it on my skin. (ive stopped doing that because it is also very very dehydrating). But what about sticking it in the mouth? could it potentially harm our gut microbe? our healthy bactria in our stomachs? all discussion is welcome!

 

Again very nice to meet you all! ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Elkaer, 11 September 2017 - 07:24 PM.


#2 YOLF

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:36 PM

Ethanol, sure, sounds great. PG... ok, maybe... DMSO... now that's not used for delivery except in animals and research. Very effective, but also risky. I don't remember what all the reasons were and lots of people seem to think like this and take the stuff b/c they see it being used in research, but I don't think it would be worth the risks. Have you thought about acetic acid or vinegar? Acetic acid (acetyl) conjugates generally show great penetration and bioavailability.



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#3 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 08:11 PM

The issue with DMSO is that it is such an effective transdermal carrier that it will carry any surface contaminants on the skin through the skin and into the bloodstream.

 

How that would translate into issues with using it for sublingual delivery I haven't a clue as I have no idea what lurks in the oral muscosa that might be problematic.  However, I don't imagine it would taste very good. 

 

 

 



#4 aconita

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Posted 12 September 2017 - 11:05 PM

If one takes MK677 DMSO taste is the last of concerns, MK677 tastes so horrible that anything added can only improve it, :)

 

Concerns about DMSO possible toxicity are unjustified since the dosage would be so tiny and anyway there is no in vivo evidence whatsoever for it.

 

Eventually concerns should address the possible/likely residuals of benzyl chloroformate in MK677, a very nasty solvent necessary for its synthesis, that's really what should rise your attention.

 

Anyway, sublingual route main trouble is caused by the amount, the smaller the better, 1 drop is easy, 2 drops are OK, 3 drops feasible, more very tricky.

 

Sublingual absorption isn't going to happen all that fast, not even with DMSO, keeping a liquid under the tongue for 10-15 minutes can be easier said than done, especially if it is more than very few drops, salivating will dilute it further, involuntary swallowing a reality and so on.

 

Plus DMSO is kind of unfriendly with tissues, can cause irritations or sensitization, especially with prolonged use, and oral tissues, especially the ones under the tongue, are very sensitive.

 

Therefore the less the better.

 

MK677 solves VERY well in water, ethanol and DMSO, very well means in very little solvent.

 

Therefore a very concentrated solution is absolutely feasible and easy to achieve.

 

That said lets get back to benzyl chloroformate.

 

Since residuals are likely and you don't want them (believe me) removing them or at least attempting to do so might be smart, plus those are responsible for MK677 nasty taste (the nastier the more residuals, or at least very likely so).

 

Benzyl chloroformate in the presence of water decompose in phosgene gas (yep, that's right, THAT phosgene, the lethal gas used in the first world war...) and benzyl alcohol (a relatively harmless substance), the theory goes that solving first MK677 in a bit of water and living it alone for some time in an open container should cause the benzyl chloroformate residuals to decompose and the nasty phosgene to evaporate.

 

That is just a theory and it isn't supported by any solid evidence, anecdotally the taste seems to somehow improve a bit but it might mean it works as it might not, we just don't know for sure.

 

My researches and personal inquires with chemists and biologists yielded no certain answer, those kind of things are a bit unpredictable and if one isn't in the specific field of research only accurate analysis can tell for sure.

 

Therefore take it as an attempt, certainly not causing any worst but not sure to work neither.

 

MK677 isn't a supplement, it is a POWERFULL drug, that's not like your multivitamin tablet or creatine scoop, effects are deep and at many levels, psyche gets affected, sleep gets affected, physiology gets affected....

 

I recommend great caution and a very conservative approach, anyway even if one takes a ton of it isn't going to turn a blob of fat in a bundle of muscles, it isn't a steroid and not even close to it, if that is the question.

 

25mg/day is what everybody seems to use since most research has been done at that dosage or at that dosage showed the most remarkable effects...but that is ORAL not SUBLINGUAL in the first place.

 

There is no research on sublingual route for MK677 as far as I know (if you know about any I'll be glad to have a look).

 

Sublingual route effectiveness depends by the compound, some gets many folds enhanced while others show very little difference compared to oral, about MK677 we don't have data, only anecdotal reports.

 

25mg sublingual properly done (no swallowing, etc...) very likely ISN'T anything like 25mg oral, not when DMSO gets involved, at least.

 

My personal experience tells that 6-7mg is plenty, my blood test after 6 moths showed exactly max IGF1 values for my age, 8-9mg already makes me uncomfortable...and I am no sissy!

 

Getting down to practical matters. 

 

Since pure DMSO can be irritating 50:50 with ethanol might be a safer choice.

 

1g MK677 in 2ml distilled water in an open glass container, preferably narrow and tall like a test tube (to minimize surface exposure therefore water evaporation), it will completely and easily solve, leave it alone 1 week (just in case).

 

After 1 week and some evaporation it likely yields 2.6g, add 4.25g DMSO and 4.25g ethanol.

 

2 drops of that are 6-7mg of MK677, 3 drops 9-11mg.

 

Start at 2 drops and stay there for one month at least before drawing conclusions since effects do change quite remarkably after a while.

 

Drops under the tongue in front of a mirror or it would be impossible to tell how many drops, no, you will not be able to tell really...and just one more drop makes for a huge difference here.

 

Keep it under the tongue without swallowing for 10-15 minutes.

 

Taste is terrible but goes away quickly with some food.

 

First in the morning before breakfast is usually better, before bed might cause too much intense dreaming, weak up after a couple of hours in sweat and such.



#5 Elkaer

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 01:51 PM

Thank you so much  for the answers! especially you aconita for your in depth response.

 

I will try and get rid of the Benzyl chloroformate, it is truely some nasty stuff!

 

I currently dont own a precise enough scale, do you know anywhere where i could convert the

4.25g DMSO and 4.25g alcohol into ml?

 

Thanks!

 

 



#6 Elkaer

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:21 PM

I found this grams to milliliter converter:

 

http://www.endmemo.c...convert/gml.php

 

DMSO have a density of 1,1 so 4,5 grams is equal to 4,09 ml

Alcohol have a density of 0,789  so 4,5 grams is equal to 5,7 ml

 

Hopefully this is correct.

 

 



#7 Junk Master

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 04:33 PM

Aconita, 

 

I always respect your opinion, especially when it comes to your knowledge of "enhanced" athletics, and I've rather surprised you view MK77 as such a powerhouse.

 

I've taken it for a couple 6-8 week "cycles" and while I was fond of the compound for enhancing my sleep, as well as my appetite, I really didn't feel the enhanced recovery, and lessening of DOMS I was hoping for.

 

Now I'm considering doing more "research" and wondering if I was using far too much for far too short of a time.

 

Not to hijack the thread, though I think the original question was well answered, but do you think the vast majority of the effects of MK77 are seen in a similar fashion to HGH? 

 

Also wondering if you have ever done research over six months with MK77?



#8 aconita

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Posted 13 September 2017 - 10:17 PM

DMSO have a density of 1,1 so 4,5 grams is equal to 4,09 ml

Alcohol have a density of 0,789  so 4,5 grams is equal to 5,7 ml

 

Hopefully this is correct.

 

I didn't check but likely it is correct, anyway in the end it doesn't need to be super exactly correct, DMSO is a bit heavier than water but ethanol is a bit lighter and they compensate each other out, the sum gets back as if they are water (more or less).   

 

@ Junk Master

 

I don't think MK677 is necessarily a performance enhancer drug, for someone with decent GH levels (younger than 40, typically) it is very unlikely to make any difference, actually likely to cause more harm than good.

 

MK677 is a secretagogue, it means it stimulates our own endogenous GH production, it is very unlikely it would ever be able to lead to supraphysiological  levels, research never showed anything like that to happen, very high dosage isn't going to change things either .

 

In this respect it isn't comparable to exogenous HGH because one can inject himself as much as wished with exogenous HGH reaching well over normal physiological levels, of course (see professional bodybuilders, HGH belly, etc...), something not achievable with MK677.

 

It depends by the goal, if one wishes to get an edge against the competition in regard of performance enhancing drugs MK677 would be a joke, one should aim at well over physiological GH levels on top of all the steroids and such.

 

But if the goal is for the not so young anymore to counteract the natural drop of endogenous GH production just to keep it in a decent range which will lead to better performances in the gym (recovery, composition, gains) than MK677 has its place and possibly a better alternative to exogenous HGH, cheaper and easier for sure.

 

Someone younger than 40 looking at MK677 as a cheaper and easier alternative to HGH injections in order to get jacked is just kidding himself, taking way above the recommended dosage like seen in some bodybuilding forums (50mg/day or even more, like twice a day and such) is just pure ignorance and just leading inexorably to great disappointment.

 

MK677 isn't just meant for that, period.

 

I am 56, I train hard 5 days a week, I don't take any steroids, I am quite strong and jacked, much better than most 20 years old around for sure...but gains are getting slow to come by, small injuries tend to get slower to heal, nevertheless I am doing good, still improving in despite of it all.

 

After 7 months on MK677 my conclusions are that it does help, it doesn't make a huge difference in gains but the ball seems starting to roll again a bit brisker, small injuries end to heal a bit faster, some little aches disappeared, nothing major but noticeable, recover seems better, more training volume and intensity for longer periods of time seems feasible....

 

Not a huge difference but certainly the most noticeable by far compared to "supplements".

 

In my experience and supported by research MK677 needs time to kick in properly, it affects first GH rising its production, than kind to drop a bit but progressively rising IGF1 which in the beginning isn't that much altered, things gets different after a while on it.

 

The full effects are seen after 2-3 months on it when it starts to kind of work properly, short cycles aren't the best choice in my view, this isn't anything like steroids, it doesn't lead to glands atrophy or receptors desensitization, the opposite is true, the longer on it the more effective it works.

 

I am not suggesting to stay on it indefinitely, cycling is likely a smart choice for a number of reasons but not short (1-2 moths) cycles, longer cycles seems better, maybe 4-6 months on and a couple off or 6 months on once a year or something of that kind.

 

Because it takes time to kick in properly dosage is tricky, one can be tempted to overdose in the beginning getting more sides than benefits and getting disappointed, better a conservative approach instead, eventually it would be better to start kind of low and eventually rise dosage after a couple of months if effects are lagging.

 

The bad of it (nothing comes for free).

 

Tastes terrible, sleep is affected, while at right dosage quality and length of it improves (deeper, more satisfying, vivid intense dreaming, etc...) at just slightly over dosage it gets worst, deep and restoring yes but waking up after 2-3 hours in sweat, too intense dreaming (nightmares), inability to get a full night sleep, etc...if this is you LOWER  the dosage!

 

Lethargy, this is a big one, even at right dosage it will hit you, especially after a few months on it.

 

Once in gym things unexpectedly do roll along well but out of it lazing around is all what you wish, relationships might get affected too since you might find yourself just not in the mood.

 

Sex does good, it affects testosterone or receptors in some way because leads to be quite horny all the time, it is just that being social and talkative gets blunted a lot, sex does great.

 

It affects psyche, apart from leading to kind of isolate from others because of lethargy it might lead to kind of depressive feelings, someone reports the opposite, I guess it might depend from where you start from, maybe someone depression is caused by low GH, rising it fixes the issue, I strongly suspect a bell shaped effect, too little or too much leading to the same issue.

 

The onset of depression and lethargy will be subtle and progressive, be aware of it, likely becoming noticeable only after a few months on it (maybe dosage dependent), to know is power, if you are aware of this eventuality you'll know how to deal with it.

 

Last but not least, why Merck never got it on the market after passing all clinical trials (at least I and II) and spending several tens of millions of dollars on it?

 

Just marketing reasons or some clinical outcome not disclosed and better not disclosable?  

 

On top of the benzyl chloroformate contaminated shabby Chinese production, of course. 

 



#9 Multivitz

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 12:57 PM

Dmso adds electric to the blood and tissues. Surely that's an effect in itself? I mean increasing the body's methylation has great effect on metabolism, it would quickly use one stores of B vitamins and imbalance the magnesium ratio to other micro minerals. Not to mention zinc usage going through the roof! Drugs are bad. Thx.
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#10 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 28 September 2017 - 11:44 PM

What on earth does "Dmso adds electric to the blood and tissues." even mean?

 

 

 







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