670 replies to this topic

[LawrenceW]

Change of plans. Instead of going to an oral NMN dosage of 500 mg twice per day, I am going to try a sublingual 500 mg once per day dosage. 

[OP2040]

At the time of my 6.4 reading my doctor wanted to immediately put me on Metformin.  I told her that I would be starting up my NMN regimen again and would like to retest in 3 months.  I went back in Dec. 2017 and my A1C had dropped to 5.8 after 3 months of NMN. She said that if I stopped taking NMN to let her know and she would immediately put me on Metformin.  I am currently taking 750mg twice per day of NMN.

 

Hi Lawrence,

I really don't want to derail the thread.  But I'm just curious why you don't push going on metformin anyway?  We all know it's a top of the line anti-aging drug in itself.  My mom has had type2db since she was 30 and now she is almost 80 and not one complication in all those years.  I can't say metformin contributed to that result as she is very healthy otherwise, but she was on it for long periods and it sure didn't hurt.

[Kirito]

Hi Lawrence,

I really don't want to derail the thread.  But I'm just curious why you don't push going on metformin anyway?  We all know it's a top of the line anti-aging drug in itself.  My mom has had type2db since she was 30 and now she is almost 80 and not one complication in all those years.  I can't say metformin contributed to that result as she is very healthy otherwise, but she was on it for long periods and it sure didn't hurt.

 

Probably because he doesn't want throw anything off with metformin attributed changes while testing NMN.

[able]

Change of plans. Instead of going to an oral NMN dosage of 500 mg twice per day, I am going to try a sublingual 500 mg once per day dosage. 

 

I'll be interested to hear your results from sublingual use, as I think it works better.

 

But it seems to me that you are changing 2 variables at the same time - dosage, and delivery method - which might make comparison a little more difficult?

 

My selfish viewpoint would like to hear how large dosages of sublingual treats you, but ofc, I'm not the one paying for it

 

Edited by able, 10 May 2018 - 04:01 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Hi Lawrence,

I really don't want to derail the thread.  But I'm just curious why you don't push going on metformin anyway?  We all know it's a top of the line anti-aging drug in itself.  My mom has had type2db since she was 30 and now she is almost 80 and not one complication in all those years.  I can't say metformin contributed to that result as she is very healthy otherwise, but she was on it for long periods and it sure didn't hurt.

 

OP2040.

 

Fair question. My simplified view on this is as follows: Biology and evolution have been exposed to and figured out how to deal with naturally occurring supplements. Biology and evolution have never seen a drug. It may be completely harmless and have no side effect or as with most drugs there may be side effects ranging from mild to severe. My point of view is that biology has seen NMN for millions of years and knows exactly what to do with it and therefore I am comfortable with taking NMN.  On the other hand:

In Summary

Commonly reported side effects of metformin include: lactic acidosis, diarrhea, nausea, nausea and vomiting, vomiting, and flatulence. Other side effects include: asthenia, and decreased vitamin b12 serum concentrate. See below for a comprehensive list of adverse effects.

For the Consumer

Applies to metformin: oral solution, oral tablet, oral tablet extended release

Along with its needed effects, metformin may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.

Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking metformin:

More common

• Abdominal or stomach discomfort
• cough or hoarseness
• decreased appetite
• diarrhea
• fast or shallow breathing
• fever or chills
• general feeling of discomfort
• lower back or side pain
• muscle pain or cramping
• painful or difficult urination
• sleepiness

Less common

• Anxiety
• blurred vision
• chest discomfort
• cold sweats
• coma
• confusion
• cool, pale skin
• depression
• difficult or labored breathing
• dizziness
• fast, irregular, pounding, or racing heartbeat or pulse
• feeling of warmth
• headache
• increased hunger
• increased sweating
• nausea
• nervousness
• nightmares
• redness of the face, neck, arms, and occasionally, upper chest
• seizures
• shakiness
• shortness of breath
• slurred speech
• tightness in the chest
• unusual tiredness or weakness

Rare

• Behavior change similar to being drunk
• difficulty with concentrating
• drowsiness
• lack or loss of strength
• restless sleep
• unusual sleepiness

[LawrenceW]

I'll be interested to hear your results from sublingual use, as I think it works better.

 

But it seems to me that you are changing 2 variables at the same time - dosage, and delivery method - which might make comparison a little more difficult?

 

My selfish viewpoint would like to hear how large dosages of sublingual treats you, but ofc, I'm not the one paying for it

 

 

Hello able.

 

From: https://innovareacad...Suppl2/1092.pdf

 

"The  main  mechanism  for  the  absorption  of  the  drug  in  to  oral  mucosa  is  via  passive  diffusion  into  the  lipoidal  membrane.  The  absorption of the drug through the sublingual route is 3 to 10 times  greater  than  oral  route  and  is  only  surpassed  by  hypodermic  injection.  For  these  formulations,  the  small  volume  of  saliva  is usually sufficient to result in tablet disintegration in the oral cavity. "  

 

Assuming a minimum of 3X effectiveness I look at my previous 1,500 mg of oral at being equivalent to 500 mg of sublingual. Am I mistaken to look at it this way?

[able]

Hello able.

 

From: https://innovareacad...Suppl2/1092.pdf

 

"The  main  mechanism  for  the  absorption  of  the  drug  in  to  oral  mucosa  is  via  passive  diffusion  into  the  lipoidal  membrane.  The  absorption of the drug through the sublingual route is 3 to 10 times  greater  than  oral  route  and  is  only  surpassed  by  hypodermic  injection.  For  these  formulations,  the  small  volume  of  saliva  is usually sufficient to result in tablet disintegration in the oral cavity. "  

 

Assuming a minimum of 3X effectiveness I look at my previous 1,500 mg of oral at being equivalent to 500 mg of sublingual. Am I mistaken to look at it this way?

 

Interesting link, thanks for that.

 

I guess you could go with the theory of 3x more effective and use 500 mg  see if tests are similar in 3 months.

 

I am far less patient than you.  I'd be inclined to go with same dose as capsules, and hope for 3x more benefit.  

 

Although I'm not sure if there are any test parameters you feel could see more improvement  -   I suspect you might notice more physical differences.

 

I forget - did you share your age?  Are you able to exercise much currently?

[LawrenceW]

Interesting link, thanks for that.

 

I guess you could go with the theory of 3x more effective and use 500 mg  see if tests are similar in 3 months.

 

I am far less patient than you.  I'd be inclined to go with same dose as capsules, and hope for 3x more benefit.  

 

Although I'm not sure if there are any test parameters you feel could see more improvement  -   I suspect you might notice more physical differences.

 

I forget - did you share your age?  Are you able to exercise much currently?

 

Because we started at a high dose, we experienced max benefits both physically and in blood work from the beginning. I am working my way downwards in dosage until I notice a drop off in benefits at which point I will be able to work my way back up slightly to what I would consider a perfect dosage for myself to experience a balance between max benefits and the smallest dosage.

 

I just turned 60

 

I try to get at least 2 serious (2 hours+) weight lifting workouts per week followed by 1/2 hour of cardio.

Edited by LawrenceW, 10 May 2018 - 05:01 PM.

[able]

Because we started at a high dose, we experienced max benefits both physically and in blood work from the beginning. I am working my way downwards in dosage until I notice a drop off in benefits at which point I will be able to work my way back up slightly to what I would consider a perfect dosage for myself to experience a balance between max benefits and the smallest dosage.

 

I just turned 60

 

I try to get at least 2 serious (2 hours+) weight lifting workouts per week followed by 1/2 hour of cardio.

 

Gotcha, and agree with trying to determine max benefits for smallest dosage.  

 

But my thought is, suppose you find 500 mg sublingual results in similar test results achieved from 1500 mg capsules?

 

You might think - great news! Maybe I can lower the dose some more and see what happens.

 

However, imo, you don't really know that is MAX benefits.  It may be the max benefit using capsules, but  I experience far better results from sublingual delivery of NMN and or NR, and would think its possible you might as well.  

 

With your current plan, you might never realize you could do much better with 1500 mg sublingual.

[able]

Ah, I just realized, we likely have a different concept here on the reason sublingual might be more effective.  I'm not just thinking about getting more NMN  (instead of NAM) into the liver.

 

The article you linked from states that sublingual avoids first pass metabolism and delivers a drug direct to bloodstream.

 

My theory  is, this makes NMN/NR directly available throughout the body, for the 15 minutes or so until they are soaked up in the liver.  After that, they end up as NAD+ in liver and would then be subject to the feedback loop/homeostasis, which  limits total NAD+ increase. 

 

So sublingual NMN/NR might increase liver NAD+ the same as capsules, or maybe even less.  But if it bypasses the liver temporarily and delivers more elsewhere, it might have much different effects than something that is more dependent on the Liver/NAD+/NAM distribution.

 

If this has any validity, it seems to me it would also benefit to use multiple doses throughout the day, which is why I use 3-4 times a day.

 

[LawrenceW]

Able.

 

Exactly.  From the way the guys are describing the NMN sublingual bump and the one that I experienced this morning, I view that as the NMN not being subjected to first pass metabolism and instead being delivered directly into the cells via a suspected but as of yet unidentified cell membrane transporter.  Consider, if the sublingual NMN simply ended up in the liver and converted to NAD+ then we would expect the same benefits and sensations as oral supplementation.  Yet we are not experiencing the same benefits, therefore the sublingual NMN must be taking a different pathway into the cells.

Edited by LawrenceW, 10 May 2018 - 06:30 PM.

[able]

Able.

 

Exactly.  From the way the guys are describing the NMN sublingual bump and the one that I experienced this morning, I view that as the NMN not being subjected to first pass metabolism and instead being delivered directly into the cells via a suspected but as of yet unidentified cell membrane transporter.  Consider, if the sublingual NMN simply ended up in the liver and converted to NAD+ then we would expect the same benefits and sensations as oral supplementation.  Yet we are not experiencing the same benefits, therefore the sublingual NMN must be taking a different pathway into the cells.

 

True.  But does it actually require a  cell membrane transporter?  

 

Even if it depends on NMN-NR to enter cells, that doesn't seem to slow down the process in oral supplements or injection research. 

 

So if you can dump some direct to bloodstream, it is likely more useful than in the liver conversion to NAD+/NAM pathway.

Edited by able, 10 May 2018 - 06:44 PM.

[mikela]

I have been taking 2 capsules sublingualy twice in sequence.  It sounds like I might be better off taking 1 capsule 4 times sequentially.  I'll try that tomorrow.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

In this thread, except for three people who revealed a brand name(s) (one after having been questioned), no one is telling the readers what might be considered to be that important piece of information. For example, if 4 people are reporting no effects and 6 are reporting great results (hypothetical example) what is to be made of that effects discrepancy? 

 

Well, if the brands were known and it turned out that the 4 (no effects) were all using the same brand it might be that there's a problem with that brand, amongst other possibilities (such as 4 actual non-responders, etc.). So, if a particular brand is being used, why not include that info in each posting--e.g.: "I take 250mg Niagen orally once a day in the morning before breakfast".

[able]

 

In this thread, except for three people who revealed a brand name(s) (one after having been questioned), no one is telling the readers what might be considered to be that important piece of information. For example, if 4 people are reporting no effects and 6 are reporting great results (hypothetical example) what is to be made of that effects discrepancy? 

 

Well, if the brands were known and it turned out that the 4 (no effects) were all using the same brand it might be that there's a problem with that brand, amongst other possibilities (such as 4 actual non-responders, etc.). So, if a particular brand is being used, why not include that info in each posting--e.g.: "I take 250mg Niagen orally once a day in the morning before breakfast".

 

 

Because if we do mention a brand name, a certain troll will make some wild accusations and its easier not to have to answer him sometimes.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@able, I was wondering about brand names because I had bought some brand "x" NMN from Amazon and I experienced no discernible positive or negative effects from taking it (other than the peripherally associated lightening of the wallet  )..

[LawrenceW]

If the brand X was K2GO, their fraud has already been uncovered at https://www.longecit...pplier-concern/

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

@LawrenceW.

 

Bingo! It was, indeed, K2GO. Had someone mentioned it by name in this thread I would have steered clear, obviously.  At least others reading this thread have now been alerted, thanks.

[Heisok]

LawrenceW, thanks for all your sharing. I have been trying to wrap my brain around the HgB A1C numbers compared to the fasting B.G. My first thought was maybe you have high post prandial numbers which could be reflected in the HgB A1C numbers, but your body might be healthy enough to be in a lower range fasting. Maybe your Dr. will prescribe a glucose meter? Next I started to think about what could cause an apparent disconnect between the HgB A1C and fasting B.G. I wonder if your body turns RBC's and Hemoglobin over slower than the approximate 90 days the HgB A1C is based on? Could result in more glycation.Going over your spread sheet the higher HgB A1C numbers appear to coincide with higher RBC's and Hemoglobin especially reflected in your August 2017 numbers.

 

Fasting B.G. 91

HgB A1C      6.4    (your highest result over time)

RBC             6.77 (high based on scale 4.63-6.08)

Hemoglobin 17.3 (your highest result over time)

 

Could you be more specific what your way of eating is while taking the NMN?

 

Considering 125 mg twice a day sublingual.

Edited by Heisok, 11 May 2018 - 02:45 AM.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Heisok.

 

My problem is that I lapse into occasional binges of pizza, cheeseburgers and fries, chicken alfredo etc. for lunch or dinner. My wife occasionally brings in a dozen donuts and despite my best intentions, they are usually gone in 2 days.  Generally, I'll put on a couple of pounds and then smarten up about my diet for 2 or 3 weeks.  The one thing that I did notice is that my craving for candy pretty well disappears when I am on NMN. The way that I look at it is that the NMN is doing a pretty good of protecting me from myself.

[LawrenceW]

@LawrenceW.

 

Bingo! It was, indeed, K2GO. Had someone mentioned it by name in this thread I would have steered clear, obviously.  At least others reading this thread have now been alerted, thanks.

 

Sorry about that Advocatus.

 

To make sure that no one else has this issue, please make sure that you do not buy K2GO NMN as they only put 12 mg of NMN in their supposed 150 mg capsule.  Please see the attached certificate of anaylsis.

 

Attached Files

•  K2go NMN testing-microqualitylabs.png   878.2KB   1 downloads

Edited by LawrenceW, 11 May 2018 - 03:06 AM.

[LawrenceW]

Went to the optometrist for my annual eye exam today and got some interesting news.  My left eye is 20/10 and my right eye is 20/12.  Never in my life have I had numbers as good as that.

[ryukenden]

Went to the optometrist for my annual eye exam today and got some interesting news. My left eye is 20/10 and my right eye is 20/12. Never in my life have I had numbers as good as that.

Impressed with your results. I understand yo take 500 mg NMN sublingually. What is the taste like? Do you buy it from Alivebynature?

[Oakman]

Went to the optometrist for my annual eye exam today and got some interesting news.  My left eye is 20/10 and my right eye is 20/12.  Never in my life have I had numbers as good as that.

 

Approx how old are you?

[LawrenceW]

Impressed with your results. I understand yo take 500 mg NMN sublingually. What is the taste like? Do you buy it from Alivebynature?

It has a pleasant slightly sour taste.

Approx how old are you?

I just turned 60.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

If visual acuity goes from 20/11 and 20/13 to 20/10 and 20/12, for example, that would be a "meh"

 

If it went from 20/30 and 20/35, for example, to 20/10 and 20/12 that's probably a "wow!"

 

So, Lawrence, what values are you talking about?

 

edit:  (hypothetical example, without regard to chart repeatability) 

 

 

Edited by Advocatus Diaboli, 21 May 2018 - 08:16 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Advocatus Diaboli

 

Historically, I have been a solid 20/20 in both eyes.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Lawrence, thanks for the visual acuity info. Significant improvements--for whatever reason(s).

[able]

Went to the optometrist for my annual eye exam today and got some interesting news.  My left eye is 20/10 and my right eye is 20/12.  Never in my life have I had numbers as good as that.

 @Lawrence - very interesting.  But if NMN was responsible, doesn't it seem you would have seen some benefit back when you were taking the mega dosage?  

 

Or do you think those were just too short of periods, or not lined up with your test dates well enough to notice.

[LawrenceW]

Hello Able.

 

My 2015, 2016 and 2017 eye exams were just at my doctor's office. The look at the chart on the wall and your eyesight is fine sort of Obamacare exam.  I got some better insurance this year and was able to return to my optometrist and mentioned to him that it seemed like my distance vision had improved.  He referred to my old charts and said that it definitely had.  This exam was the full blown exam and included the pictures of the back of the eyes.  He still has my images from 12 to 15 years ago.  Do you guys think that there would be any point in asking him to compare between the oldest and the newest ones? Would there be any visible signs of health or age?