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Vitamin D-serious help needed.

vitamin d supplements calcium vitamin k

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#1 experimenting

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 10:21 PM


Vitamin D changed my life. I was diagnosed at 20ng/ml, a deficiency which had lasted years. Brain fog, low T, skinny-fat, the works-it wasn’t fun.

Started with 5000iu-eventually upped it to 10000. For a few months this was spectacular. Exceptional body composition increases, cognition, you name it.

But problems are arising now and I can’t seem to troubleshoot them. First, issues with sleep-I assume this is a melatonin suppression effect? Second, severe skin dryness and itch. Third, weird gym issues-while I’ve lost a ton of fat, I can’t seem to put on muscle or make strength gains.

You’d think it was as easy as reducing vitamin D and I’ve tried-but even dropping to just 5000iu in the morning has near immediate cognition effects-I just get foggy. In fairness I haven’t tried this for more than a few days-so maybe it’s a dopamine adjustment? The “rush” I get from megadoses is great-but the side effects are brutal and I really need to find a compromise that works. Any ideas?

I’ve tried LEFs vitamin K and it cures some of the itch, but also takes the cognition edge off D, so that isn’t great. Perhaps it’s a matter of adjusting ratios though.

Really would appreciate any help-I do know some here are battling the same issues. There’s also the question of whether vitamin D actually increases body fat at high doses-there was a mouse study to this effect:

http://gregnuckols.c...ar-supplements/

#2 pamojja

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 10:31 PM

What is your serum 25(OH)D3 level now? Did you supplement ample co-factors, like preformed vitamin A, magnesium, zinc and boron?



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#3 experimenting

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:27 PM

Was 99 ng/ml last.

No supplementing cofactors. Zinc made me terribly anxious. Haven’t tried boron. Magnesium is...laxative. Vitamin A has mixed reviews...
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#4 Believer

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 12:05 AM

Vitamin D increases dopamine and serotonin and this is what causes the sleep issues. Noradrenaline may be a downstream mechanism of ruining sleep.

The D2 and 5ht2a receptor decrease the ability to fall asleep and sleep quality.

 

As for body itch, if it is accompanied by irritability and stress then it is certainly a glutamatergic thing. Vitamin K can do this at times in lower dosages. 


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#5 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 12:24 AM

How do I relieve the glutaminergic factor while keeping the benefits of D? Also, any clue on the body fat thing?

#6 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 01:16 AM

Vitamin D increases dopamine and serotonin and this is what causes the sleep issues. Noradrenaline may be a downstream mechanism of ruining sleep.
The D2 and 5ht2a receptor decrease the ability to fall asleep and sleep quality.

As for body itch, if it is accompanied by irritability and stress then it is certainly a glutamatergic thing. Vitamin K can do this at times in lower dosages.


Also forgot to mention increased thirst is a symptom.

#7 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 01:16 AM

Vitamin D increases dopamine and serotonin and this is what causes the sleep issues. Noradrenaline may be a downstream mechanism of ruining sleep.
The D2 and 5ht2a receptor decrease the ability to fall asleep and sleep quality.

As for body itch, if it is accompanied by irritability and stress then it is certainly a glutamatergic thing. Vitamin K can do this at times in lower dosages.


Also forgot to mention increased thirst is a symptom.

#8 Believer

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 02:29 AM

Vitamin D does not increase glutamate but vitamin K can. There could also be other causes, obviously. 


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#9 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 02:53 AM

Vitamin D does not increase glutamate but vitamin K can. There could also be other causes, obviously.


Then why the itch when I take JUST D?

#10 Believer

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 07:33 AM

Not sure. Could be related to skin inflammation. Lots of things cause an itch, including thousands of types of eczema, neurotransmitters like glutamate. 



#11 pamojja

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 10:22 AM

Was 99 ng/ml last.

No supplementing cofactors. Zinc made me terribly anxious. Haven’t tried boron. Magnesium is...laxative. Vitamin A has mixed reviews...

 

I feel really sorry. Because I doubt there is anything else to avoid your adverse effects.

 

Essential nutrients aren't optional already on their own, with high-dosing one is invariably increasing the need of others causing a mess where again only raising all the other nutrients could help it at its root cause.

 

Best example is my own case. Bringing up my serum 25(OH)D in a healthy range brought up my Mg-needs to astronomical heights. In other words, it made me seriously deficient despite supplementing up to 2.4 g of oral elemental Mg. Believe me, diarrhea is a lesser evil than a severe Mg-deficiency. In the end only could correct it somewhat with Mg-IVs.

 

With preformed vitamin A I was cautious too. Only increased gradually while monitoring serum retinol and retinol binding protein. In the end found that above 24.000 daily IUs all my psoriasis-outbreaks have become a thing of the past.

 

Essential nutrients aren't 'optional'.


Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2018 - 10:28 AM.


#12 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 12:26 PM

 

Was 99 ng/ml last.

No supplementing cofactors. Zinc made me terribly anxious. Haven’t tried boron. Magnesium is...laxative. Vitamin A has mixed reviews...

 

I feel really sorry. Because I doubt there is anything else to avoid your adverse effects.

 

Essential nutrients aren't optional already on their own, with high-dosing one is invariably increasing the need of others causing a mess where again only raising all the other nutrients could help it at its root cause.

 

Best example is my own case. Bringing up my serum 25(OH)D in a healthy range brought up my Mg-needs to astronomical heights. In other words, it made me seriously deficient despite supplementing up to 2.4 g of oral elemental Mg. Believe me, diarrhea is a lesser evil than a severe Mg-deficiency. In the end only could correct it somewhat with Mg-IVs.

 

With preformed vitamin A I was cautious too. Only increased gradually while monitoring serum retinol and retinol binding protein. In the end found that above 24.000 daily IUs all my psoriasis-outbreaks have become a thing of the past.

 

Essential nutrients aren't 'optional'.

 

 

 

I was having mild muscle spasms and weakness-I suspect that's an MG deficiency. I took some Mg citrate and am feeling better already, so that's a start. I've ordered Mg glycinate which I'm led to understand is more forgiving on the stomach.

 

What's your stack? Do you take Vit K (this seems to have weird effects on my brain, almost anti-dopaminergic, may be a glutamine thing, anyway it's a somewhat unproven substance and I don't want to turbo dose)? Although Vit K makes me pretty ripped and high-libido, it dampens my "spunkiness" which I really need in my job.

 

What else do I absolutely need with D? I want to be as conservative as possible.

 



#13 pamojja

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 12:36 PM

I was having mild muscle spasms and weakness-I suspect that's an MG deficiency. I took some Mg citrate and am feeling better already, so that's a start. I've ordered Mg glycinate which I'm led to understand is more forgiving on the stomach.
 
What's your stack? Do you take Vit K (this seems to have weird effects on my brain, almost anti-dopaminergic, may be a glutamine thing, anyway it's a somewhat unproven substance and I don't want to turbo dose)? Although Vit K makes me pretty ripped and high-libido, it dampens my "spunkiness" which I really need in my job.
 
What else do I absolutely need with D? I want to be as conservative as possible.

 

For being as conservative as possible (which also means discontinuing the Vitamin D3 for a while so you can catch up with deficiencies created by this imbalance) read this very basic advise about essential nutrients: http://www.longecity...-mineral-stack/

 

I take Koncentrated-K, the one vitamin K supplement with the highest content in all Ks: 5000mcg of K1, 25000mcg of K2-mk4 and 500mcg of K2-mk7. Didn't have any directly felt effects from it at all. However, I always start with the lowest dose, and increase gradually over years while increasing all other essential nutrients.

 

Therefore my stack developed slowly over 9 years now. A detailed account here: http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/


Edited by pamojja, 24 March 2018 - 12:40 PM.


#14 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 02:20 PM

I was having mild muscle spasms and weakness-I suspect that's an MG deficiency. I took some Mg citrate and am feeling better already, so that's a start. I've ordered Mg glycinate which I'm led to understand is more forgiving on the stomach.

What's your stack? Do you take Vit K (this seems to have weird effects on my brain, almost anti-dopaminergic, may be a glutamine thing, anyway it's a somewhat unproven substance and I don't want to turbo dose)? Although Vit K makes me pretty ripped and high-libido, it dampens my "spunkiness" which I really need in my job.

What else do I absolutely need with D? I want to be as conservative as possible.


For being as conservative as possible (which also means discontinuing the Vitamin D3 for a while so you can catch up with deficiencies created by this imbalance) read this very basic advise about essential nutrients: http://www.longecity...-mineral-stack/

I take Koncentrated-K, the one vitamin K supplement with the highest content in all Ks: 5000mcg of K1, 25000mcg of K2-mk4 and 500mcg of K2-mk7. Didn't have any directly felt effects from it at all. However, I always start with the lowest dose, and increase gradually over years while increasing all other essential nutrients.

Therefore my stack developed slowly over 9 years now. A detailed account here: http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

That’s a megadose of K. Why do you take it, considering it’s relatively unproven?

#15 Nate-2004

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 04:07 PM

Why not just take a break for a couple of days or even a week, it won't hurt, then drop the dose to 4k for a while?


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#16 experimenting

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 08:28 PM

Why not just take a break for a couple of days or even a week, it won't hurt, then drop the dose to 4k for a while?


With or without the K, any opinion on that?

#17 Nate-2004

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 08:47 PM

K is in so many foods, especially green ones, just go without for a while, it's always good to cycle in most cases.


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#18 pamojja

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Posted 25 March 2018 - 10:59 AM

 

For being as conservative as possible (which also means discontinuing the Vitamin D3 for a while so you can catch up with deficiencies created by this imbalance) read this very basic advise about essential nutrients: http://www.longecity...-mineral-stack/


I take Concentrated-K, the one vitamin K supplement with the highest content in all Ks: 5000mcg of K1, 25000mcg of K2-mk4 and 500mcg of K2-mk7. Didn't have any directly felt effects from it at all. However, I always start with the lowest dose, and increase gradually over years while increasing all other essential nutrients.

Therefore my stack developed slowly over 9 years now. A detailed account here: http://www.longecity...nal-remissions/

That’s a megadose of K. Why do you take it, considering it’s relatively unproven?

 

Have you read the second link provided above, which talks about all my chronic conditions resolved?

 

On this page a collection of studies related to cardiovascular issues alone (scroll down to get to the studies).


Edited by pamojja, 25 March 2018 - 10:59 AM.


#19 experimenting

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 07:26 PM

Apologies. Would you recommend it for those with no conditions however?

I find it diminishes my mental edge...might be a glutamate thing.

#20 pamojja

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 08:29 PM

Apologies. Would you recommend it for those with no conditions however?

I find it diminishes my mental edge...might be a glutamate thing.

 

I don't recommend anything other than educating oneself on the implications of 'essential nutrients', and then be aware of either risks, however one decides. If one decides the risks of a particular nutrient deficiency is too high for one's taste, I would start with the lowest possible dose and increase gradually to find a sweet spot. Along with all other essential nutrients. The particular optimal dose only oneself is able to find. And is guaranteed to fluctuate over time.

 

In your particular case it might just be that you haven't found the optimal dosing, nor that of all other co-dependent nutrients. Or simply the additives of the particular product you used. I would try different product first, to explore if that could be the case.



#21 experimenting

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 09:50 PM

So it would seem. I often haven’t the patience to give it time, and with more exotic supps like K, it’s hard to mini dose then ramp up.

Btw, did you have any opinions on the view that oral D can make you gain fat/lose muscle? Interesting link above...the meat industry considers its use as a tenderizer...
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#22 pamojja

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 10:02 PM

Btw, did you have any opinions on the view that oral D can make you gain fat/lose muscle? Interesting link above...the meat industry considers its use as a tenderizer...

 

As said in a concurrent thread, I'm not after any of the pharmacological effects - or rather adverse effects - possible by taking any one nutrient in isolation, only industry is interested in.
 



#23 experimenting

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 10:10 PM

Btw, did you have any opinions on the view that oral D can make you gain fat/lose muscle? Interesting link above...the meat industry considers its use as a tenderizer...


As said in a concurrent thread, I'm not after any of the pharmacological effects - or rather adverse effects - possible by taking any one nutrient in isolation, only industry is interested in.

Well, alone or in combination, something like this warrants investigation.

Regardless I’m going to stop supps for a few days, then restart on low dose D and add piece by piece. Going to take more than some patience...

#24 pamojja

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Posted 26 March 2018 - 10:22 PM

 

 

Btw, did you have any opinions on the view that oral D can make you gain fat/lose muscle? Interesting link above...the meat industry considers its use as a tenderizer...


As said in a concurrent thread, I'm not after any of the pharmacological effects - or rather adverse effects - possible by taking any one nutrient in isolation, only industry is interested in.

Well, alone or in combination, something like this warrants investigation.

 

Well, in combination with all other nutrients I do investigate with my now 9 years long case-study. Most obvious effect on muscle wasting is probably reflected by having reversed a 60% walking-disability during that time.

 

By the way, do you drink enough water? Do you get enough salt? What kind of diet you eat?

 

 



#25 experimenting

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:28 AM

 

 

 

Btw, did you have any opinions on the view that oral D can make you gain fat/lose muscle? Interesting link above...the meat industry considers its use as a tenderizer...


As said in a concurrent thread, I'm not after any of the pharmacological effects - or rather adverse effects - possible by taking any one nutrient in isolation, only industry is interested in.

Well, alone or in combination, something like this warrants investigation.

 

Well, in combination with all other nutrients I do investigate with my now 9 years long case-study. Most obvious effect on muscle wasting is probably reflected by having reversed a 60% walking-disability during that time.

 

By the way, do you drink enough water? Do you get enough salt? What kind of diet you eat?

 

 

 

High protein/high unsaturated fat/low-ish carbs. Probably don't quite get enough water though vitamin D without K massively increases my thirst (another worrying side effect). Exercise 3-4x a week. 6' 1'', 180 lbs, chest 41 waist 32, so athletic, though not massively muscled. 



#26 pamojja

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:57 AM

High protein/high unsaturated fat/low-ish carbs. Probably don't quite get enough water though vitamin D without K massively increases my thirst (another worrying side effect). Exercise 3-4x a week. 6' 1'', 180 lbs, chest 41 waist 32, so athletic, though not massively muscled.

 

Mainly prepacked industrially made food? Found this interesting article about the importance rehydration and salt by the late Nicolas Gonzales some time ago. Maybe could help you to a better hydration too (and sorry for the confusion I created in the comment section then)
 



#27 experimenting

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 09:25 PM

High protein/high unsaturated fat/low-ish carbs. Probably don't quite get enough water though vitamin D without K massively increases my thirst (another worrying side effect). Exercise 3-4x a week. 6' 1'', 180 lbs, chest 41 waist 32, so athletic, though not massively muscled.


Mainly prepacked industrially made food? Found this interesting article about the importance rehydration and salt by the late Nicolas Gonzales some time ago. Maybe could help you to a better hydration too (and sorry for the confusion I created in the comment section then)

Interesting, thank you.

Anyone else have any comment on the Vit D/body fat link?

#28 baccheion

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:03 AM

Take a good multivitamin like AOR Ortho-Core or Thorne 2/day instead. If wanting more vitamin D + K, add a supplement like Thorne D/K or Life Extension D + K, as they have D + K in good ratios. Vitamin K can lower acetylcholine. If the edge is still removed with the new supplements, add something like alpha-GPC (+ noopept or a racetam, or even better, SEMAX).

Increased thirst is one sign of excess calcium. Vitamin D should really be taken with vitamin K2 and magnesium (oil spray if you need to fix a deficiency).

Edited by baccheion, 28 March 2018 - 04:07 AM.


#29 experimenting

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:22 PM

Magnesium I take (once a week or so).

K has the mental blunting I mentioned. Perhaps it’s a matter of the dose and the form-looks like Thorne has just K2, would this solve the issue?
Magnesium I take (once a week or so).

K has the mental blunting I mentioned. Perhaps it’s a matter of the dose and the form-looks like Thorne has just K2, would this solve the issue?

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#30 Caravaggio

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:52 PM

 

Vitamin D does not increase glutamate but vitamin K can. There could also be other causes, obviously.


Then why the itch when I take JUST D?

 

 

My guess would be that you developed calcium deposits in your soft tissues from the high amount of D3, try K2-MK4 to remove the calcium from the soft tissues.

 

I wouldn't take K2-MK7 it stays in the blood too long and accumulates because it has to be converted to MK4.

 

 

I felt very bad on the K2-MK7, could be that some people lack the ability to convert the MK7 to MK4 (defect in the gene UBIAD1?).

 

Nature. 2010 Nov 4;468(7320):117-21. doi: 10.1038/nature09464. Epub 2010 Oct 17.

Identification of UBIAD1 as a novel human menaquinone-4 biosynthetic enzyme.
Nakagawa K, Hirota Y, Sawada N, Yuge N, Watanabe M, Uchino Y, Okuda N, Shimomura Y, Suhara Y, Okano T.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/20953171


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