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How much Melatonin do you really need?

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#1 John250

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 03:58 AM


Reviews are very conflicting on melatonin. Some say the more the better as 10-50mg boosts the immune system in cancer patients. Then some say mg’s are too high and dosage should be in mcg. Melatonin has been studied far too long for there to not be a definitive answer. I personally am one of the rare ones who get restless with melatonin unless it’s a low dose. Recently I’ve been using nootropic depots 300mcg caps pre bed and it’s been fine. But all the research backing what a powerful antioxidant this supplement is makes me want to mega dose it at 50mg to reap all the benefits. I read that adding 1 tsp (5g) of L-Glycine will help the side effects as L-Glycine has shown to improve melatonin tolerance, as it acts as a serotonin re-uptake inhibitor and decreases core body temperature to match physiological temperature during sleep. Having a hard time with a difinitve protocol.

On a side note we have a 5yr old and 3yr old boys. My wife bought Zarbee’s Naturals melatonin for kids. 1mg tabs. When they take it, it knocks em out and is so relaxing but I’ve read a few things on how “long term” melatonin in children may impact sexual function. I’m mean for Gods sake really? Melatonin was first isolated in 1958. That 60yrs of research and you're still going to say “could potentially” with several side effects!

Edited by John250, 08 June 2018 - 04:01 AM.

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#2 BasicBiO

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:01 PM

Seems melatonin research is still in it's infancy, I agree. 300 mcg is the most agreed upon dose for sleep for adults. I've been taking 5-10mg per night for years for the anti-inflammatory/antioxidant benefits and also for memory consolidation.

 

I've gone much higher in dose years ago and there were no deleterious side effects. Upon raising the dose, there is a few days of grogginess but it quickly fades.



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#3 John250

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Posted 08 June 2018 - 08:11 PM

I’m curious how L-Glycine effects it

#4 Blueflash

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:07 AM

Sometimes I will take 5 grams l-glycine with my 3 mg melatonin. I sleep good without being groggy the next day.

#5 recon

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:59 AM

Melatonin is good and is very beneficial, but never forget that your body also produces it as per circadian rhythm and darkness.

Taking a whole bunch of it will lead to lower production of it by your body as a negative feedback loop. Your exogenous intake of 0.3 mg is sufficient to stimulate the production and release of your own bodily-produced melatonin. A study showed that 0.3 mg displayed the highest melatonin response compared to lesser or more.

However, I’m not too sure about if you’re intending to megadose it. It may inhibit your own bodily production and release of melatonin due to your body figuring that there is too much melatonin compared to baseline. Then again, at such a dose, would you even need your natural melatonin.

There are yet so many questions unanswered by human trials. As with many things, better be safe than sorry. If you want to catch on the longevity escape velocity there are better ways than to take too much of an uncalculatable risk.
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#6 QuestforLife

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 07:44 AM

I've gone as high as 50-100mg/night, and at that level it reduced my sex drive. A few weeks off it and it returned back to normal.

 

Is there a study showing the optimal dose for humans?

 

I was hoping to regenerate the thymus based on this rat study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12880677 from which I derived a HED of 14mg/night. My WBC did go up a little after 3 months of treatment.



#7 Believer

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 12:38 PM

I've gone as high as 50-100mg/night, and at that level it reduced my sex drive. A few weeks off it and it returned back to normal.

 

Is there a study showing the optimal dose for humans?

 

I was hoping to regenerate the thymus based on this rat study www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12880677 from which I derived a HED of 14mg/night. My WBC did go up a little after 3 months of treatment.

I am absolutely convinced that melatonin has anti-aging properties but have not seen them yet.

My old relative is now taking extended release melatonin which works much better for his sleep and I reckon it will have stronger anti-aging effects.

 

Have you noticed anti-aging effects relative to your age? May I ask what your age is? I am very interested to know.



#8 QuestforLife

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 02:54 PM

I agree with you, but at 39 I did not notice any obvious effects, other than the drop in sex drive.

 

This may be tied into its anti aging benefit as a master hormone regulator however - as LH and FSH go up in both sexes at more advanced ages, and if melatonin can prevent then that is where its benefit will be, even though in my case lowering FSH/LH may have caused a drop in testosterone.

 

www.pnas.org/content/pnas/88/17/7576.full.pdf

 

 

 

 



#9 John250

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:24 PM

Anyone know if the peptide Melanotan2 has similar antioxidant affects as melatonin?

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Melanotan_II

#10 John250

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 04:30 PM

Melatonin is good and is very beneficial, but never forget that your body also produces it as per circadian rhythm and darkness.

Taking a whole bunch of it will lead to lower production of it by your body as a negative feedback loop. Your exogenous intake of 0.3 mg is sufficient to stimulate the production and release of your own bodily-produced melatonin. A study showed that 0.3 mg displayed the highest melatonin response compared to lesser or more.

However, I’m not too sure about if you’re intending to megadose it. It may inhibit your own bodily production and release of melatonin due to your body figuring that there is too much melatonin compared to baseline. Then again, at such a dose, would you even need your natural melatonin.

There are yet so many questions unanswered by human trials. As with many things, better be safe than sorry. If you want to catch on the longevity escape velocity there are better ways than to take too much of an uncalculatable risk.


I did not realize there was a negative feedback loop for melatonin. It’s odd how some hormones have a negative feedback loop and others do not. For example exogenous testosterone can shut down your HPTA after just one injection but supplementing with thyroid medication takes a very long time to shut down natural thyroid production. Prolactin inhibitors and anti estrogens can be used for quite a while with natural levels returning to baseline after cessation of use. And dhea I haven’t seen any studies of negative impacts on natural levels after cessation of exogenous dhea supplements.

#11 Hebbeh

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Posted 11 June 2018 - 05:00 PM

There are no studies showing any kind of negative feedback loop for melatonin that I'm aware of.  In fact, existing studies show the opposite and can be located with a search.  This has been discussed in previous threads.


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#12 John250

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 04:46 PM

Did anyone know that melatonin decreases dopamine? What a bummer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/12043836/

#13 pamojja

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 05:14 PM

Did anyone know that melatonin decreases dopamine? What a bummer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/12043836/

 

I think you read a bit too much in what that sudy says:

 

 

These interactions and the antioxidant nature of melatonin may be beneficial in the treatment of dopamine-related disorders.

 



#14 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:31 PM

Did anyone know that melatonin decreases dopamine? What a bummer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/12043836/

 

https://examine.com/...onin/#summary15

 

Serum dopamine has been noted to be slightly reduced (37%) during waking at rest, but this decrease was eliminated upon walking

 



#15 Hebbeh

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Posted 12 June 2018 - 06:48 PM

There are no studies showing any kind of negative feedback loop for melatonin that I'm aware of.  In fact, existing studies show the opposite and can be located with a search.  This has been discussed in previous threads.

 

https://examine.com/...onin/#summary15

 

A study assessing 6 months (n=112) and 12 months (n=96) of melatonin treatment of 2mg in a controlled release capsule, taken 1-2 hours prior to sleep, people aged 20-80 with primary insomnia failed to show any tolerance to the treatment. The authors noted a slight sensitization to the effects of melatonin at the 3-4 month period, which was attributed to better entrainment of the circadian rhythm.[290] These results have been replicated in another study, lasting 6 months, with a sample of 791 people. No melatonin tolerance due to usage was observed,[137] Another study, lasting 6 months with a sample size of 421 people also replicated these results.[138]

 



#16 YOLF

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 01:55 PM

I agree with you, but at 39 I did not notice any obvious effects, other than the drop in sex drive.

 

This may be tied into its anti aging benefit as a master hormone regulator however - as LH and FSH go up in both sexes at more advanced ages, and if melatonin can prevent then that is where its benefit will be, even though in my case lowering FSH/LH may have caused a drop in testosterone.

 

www.pnas.org/content/pnas/88/17/7576.full.pdf

I think you've misunderstood. The drop in LH/FSH/T is only at night and it rebounds in the morning. Better sleep = better sex hormones, so it lowers them at night to help you sleep and raises them closer to your max the next day.


Did anyone know that melatonin decreases dopamine? What a bummer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...ubmed/12043836/

Same phenomena explained one post above.


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#17 Believer

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Posted 16 June 2018 - 08:18 PM

I think you've misunderstood. The drop in LH/FSH/T is only at night and it rebounds in the morning. Better sleep = better sex hormones, so it lowers them at night to help you sleep and raises them closer to your max the next day.

No, it lowers sex hormones and has been used as chemical castration. I also used it to lower my libido.

I am planning on combining it with keto diet which both lower libido.


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#18 Hebbeh

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 02:33 AM

https://examine.com/...onin/#summary15

 

When supplemented to otherwise healthy men, 6 mg of melatonin does not appear to significantly influence testosterone levels. It may trend to attenuate the exercise-induced decrease in testosterone.[79] This same dose taken nightly for a month does not alter testosterone levels, luteinizing hormone levels or follicle stimulating hormone levels in otherwise healthy men.[165]

Despite the mechanisms of negative regulation, melatonin does not appear to actually influence testosterone levels in healthy men.

 


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#19 QuestforLife

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 08:48 AM

I worked up to 50-100mg a night (far more than that study) and at that level it definitely did reduce my libido. You'd probably not notice anything below 20mg/night (I didn't), depending on the individual.

I found my libido recovered within 2 weeks of cessation.
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#20 Hebbeh

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 09:29 AM

https://examine.com/...onin/#summary15

 

For regulating the sleep cycle, doses of melatonin between 500mcg (0.5mg) and 5mg seem to work. Start with 500mcg, and if it doesn’t work, work up to 3-5mg. The benefits of melatonin are not dose-dependent - taking more will not help you fall asleep faster.

To help with sleep, take roughly 30 minutes before going to bed.

Growth hormone appears to spike slightly better at 5mg than 500mcg, although both doses are fairly effective.

 

 

Recommended doses in the literature are typically 300 mcg to 3 mg with the largest commercial dose I've seen as 10 mg which is what I've worked up to over many years and can attest works very well.  50-100 mg seems more than excessive and I couldn't imagine taking that much nor could I understand why you would want to..  BTW, 50-100 mg is a huge spread.... out of curiosity, is it 50 or is it 100 mg?

 

I can attest that years of 10 mg has had no negative effect on my libido having just fathered a new daughter 2 weeks ago at age 61.


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#21 QuestforLife

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 01:51 PM

For thymus regeneration (see that thread). The HED i calculated based on the rat study was about 14mg/night and I increased it from there. When you're measuring out powder 50mg is a tiny amount.

Also various proponents of hormonal driven aging (see Jeff T Bowles Blog, for example) advocate much higher doses of melatonin to prevent middle aged rises in LH and FSH.
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#22 John250

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Posted 17 June 2018 - 11:45 PM

No, it lowers sex hormones and has been used as chemical castration. I also used it to lower my libido.
I am planning on combining it with keto diet which both lower libido.


If you want to lower libido a dht inhibitor may help. Prima Force Capros is Indian Gooseberry (phyllanthus emblica extract)


https://examine.com/...ca-officinalis/

7.1. Testosterone

Emblica officinalis has been tested for its 5α-reductase inhibiting properties, and appears to be fairly potent as 1g of the crude fruit extract was as potent as 18.99+/-0.40mg finasteride.[52] It was less potent than Carthamus tinctorius (1g being equivalent to 24.30+/-1.64mg finasteride), and these inhibitory effects were thought to underlie the hair growth promoting effects of topical application.[52]
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