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Tackling ADHD induced(?) lack of motivation

adhd methylphenidate

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#61 cat-nips

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 03:47 PM

Not directly relevant to this thread but also remember reading somewhere that Tia could be effective treatment of IBS which is linked to depression. If this is true it could be a valuable alternative treatment to SSRI or other standard treatments for that.

Edited by cat-nips, 04 November 2018 - 03:48 PM.

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#62 CWF1986

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 02:15 AM

I've tried DLPA with the seleg. and was very disappointed.  It didn't do anything adhd.  It did ease anxiety.  It was most like taking a weak low dose opioid like darvocets than anything else I can compare to and I can see myself using this stuff for the discomfort of excessive DOMS or minor strains.  

 

I think I'll give tyrosine a go.  



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#63 cat-nips

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 04:12 AM

I've tried DLPA with the seleg. and was very disappointed.  It didn't do anything adhd.  It did ease anxiety.  It was most like taking a weak low dose opioid like darvocets than anything else I can compare to and I can see myself using this stuff for the discomfort of excessive DOMS or minor strains.  

 

I think I'll give tyrosine a go.  

 

DLPA on it's own did nothing for me as well, except give some pins and needles in my feet after higher dosages.  I attribute that to the nerve damage side effect you sometimes hear associated with higher dosage DLPA treatment.  Pretty disappointing because I read a trial where it had shown some efficacy combined with Selegiline.  I don't think it will work in my case either, being that I derive no benefit from it alone.  Still waiting on it to arrive and I used the same vendor.  

 

Tyrosine is ok on it's own, but for me, the dosages needed to maintain it as consistent ADHD treatment are too high to be comfortable, and seemingly raises my blood pressure beyond safe ranges.  However maybe in lower dosages, as an adjunct it might be alright.    

 

Personally, I find consistent steady state, HIIT or a combined resistance and HIIT workout, to be fabulous for symptom control, but need the initial motivation to start, the focus/concentration to get through it and recover, and the stamina to continue doing this mostly every day before reaping the continued benefits and aftereffects.  Unfortunately, that's something that doesn't come so easily for me while unmedicated, even though I "love" exercise.  Exercise ADD is common for me, where I start 10 min of one workout before deciding I want to do another one, and then start the other one 10 min, before I get bored and want another type, ad infinitum nauseam, and this isn't on purpose.  After I do this a few times, I get frustrated and decide that I haven't been productive and end it.  This has often been enough to ruin my day during the times where I would try to get a workout in right after AM coffee, and scheduling in 60-90 min of exercise time often led to nothing.    



#64 CWF1986

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 10:25 PM

I'm ordering more selegiline and I'll have it a couple or so more weeks.  I'll give 10mg a day a go.  I know I'll be flirting with MAO-A inhibition but I'll take proper precautions.  Also, I take a med potent and selective for NRI which will reduce to eliminate the pressor response to tyramine.  



#65 gamesguru

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Posted 05 November 2018 - 10:29 PM

Also, I take a med potent and selective for NRI which will reduce to eliminate the pressor response to tyramine.  

 

Did you double, triple check that? 10mg is not a "large" selegiline dose, buuuuutttt



#66 cat-nips

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 12:25 AM

Thought Nori would increase blood pressure and taking with Selgin would result in additive effects?

#67 floweryriddle

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 04:55 AM

This weekend I had enough motivation to do one of the things that had the "ADHD wall" for me. That was something I wanted to do for a very long time, and a big reason why I started this thread. The mental block was still there but a lot easier to power through, as in, there was less internal resistance to fight with. Usually I would be stuck in the planning phase indefinitely, but never get to the doing part. I could think about doing it, but not actually start doing it - it's really difficult to explain. 

 

Well and then, in all the good vibes my ADHD brain forgot to check how much Tianeptine I had left and I'm out. So this will be an interesting forced test to see how things change when taking out Tianeptine. The next order (a few grams of powder) could take a good 3 weeks to arrive, assuming it even makes it through (Piracetam I ordered in the past multiple times never made it.) I have a little bit of Sulphate at home but in previous tests it never really did anything for me. 

 

Selegiline+MPH+Atomoxetine stays. Maybe also good point to evaluate if Tianeptine is even sustainable for my current situation.

I'm open to give other things a try in place of TIA


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#68 cat-nips

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Posted 06 November 2018 - 06:26 AM

This weekend I had enough motivation to do one of the things that had the "ADHD wall" for me. That was something I wanted to do for a very long time, and a big reason why I started this thread. The mental block was still there but a lot easier to power through, as in, there was less internal resistance to fight with. Usually I would be stuck in the planning phase indefinitely, but never get to the doing part. I could think about doing it, but not actually start doing it - it's really difficult to explain.

Well and then, in all the good vibes my ADHD brain forgot to check how much Tianeptine I had left and I'm out. So this will be an interesting forced test to see how things change when taking out Tianeptine. The next order (a few grams of powder) could take a good 3 weeks to arrive, assuming it even makes it through (Piracetam I ordered in the past multiple times never made it.) I have a little bit of Sulphate at home but in previous tests it never really did anything for me.

Selegiline+MPH+Atomoxetine stays. Maybe also good point to evaluate if Tianeptine is even sustainable for my current situation.
I'm open to give other things a try in place of TIA

I know the feeling of endless planning and organization with no content or action, and I’ve always attributed it to an improper balance of too high NA to DA levels. But that’s a purely speculative and subjectively based opinion.

Hope it works out. Best!

Edited by cat-nips, 06 November 2018 - 06:31 AM.

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#69 floweryriddle

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 03:06 AM

I’m a lot more sad and gloomy these days. Because of this I feel less energized and motivated and am back at having a hard time with things. Compared to baseline before this experiment, it’s still better But more down and sad. I’m also a lot more agitated and physically feeling stressed.

I am wondering if it’s depressive symptoms coming back that TIA effectively got rid of, but am also suspecting some sort of rebound from longer TIA usage. I had a similar down when I forgot dosages.

With this I’m definitely wondering if TIA is even sustainable and looking for other things to potentially replace it with. A isolated MAOI testrun with either higher dosages or Selegiline or a reversible MAO like moclobemide sounds more and more tempting after the success with TIA. So do other antidepressants.

Edited by floweryriddle, 09 November 2018 - 03:07 AM.


#70 cat-nips

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 04:07 AM

I've trialed Selegiline 5-15mg for the past 3 days and it feels about 5% similar to the effect of Dexedrine/Adderall.  15mg on it's own really didn't do much by itself and maybe even caused some afternoon fatigue.  However, 5mg stacked with 1/4 of an Armodafinil tab and it was almost too hyper and possibly bordering hypertensive, but the happy clarity was present for a few hours.  Too scared to go higher.

 

I'm also wondering about higher doses of Selegiline for ADHD treatment both singularly and adjunctively, so I hope that those with experience with doses over 10mg will provide their insights.  For now, I think I'll stick to 5mg BID with a small amount of Armodafinil.  

 

Standard Antidepressants (SSRIs) have always worsened ADHD for me even in combo with stimulant treatment.  Some may find a happy medium with this and docs like to prescribe this combo, but personally, I found more of a cancelling of effects rather than synergy, but that's in combination with amp products.  It could be different with MPH.  

 

With Tia's high efficacy rates for depression, it would make sense that upon cessation, you would have rebound of symptoms.  From my understanding, addiction and toxicity could become an issue when increasing dosages beyond the standard 12.5mg, 3x per day for the Sodium form.  However, I think the Sulphate form is supposed to be a smoother and longer lasting effect with fewer doses required, so perhaps thats an option. Does your doctor have any suggestions?  

  

For more standard treatments, I've heard that Lamictal can work well in some as an adjunctive antidepressant treatment, but there is an adjustment period you have to go through.  When I tried the Lamictal/Dexedrine combo, I couldn't tolerate it due to anxiety and other side effects, but I've heard a few people speak favorably of it.  I've also heard that Abilify can work synergistically, but it's not something that I've personally tried.  

 

 

 


Edited by cat-nips, 09 November 2018 - 04:09 AM.


#71 Finn

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 05:53 AM

With this I’m definitely wondering if TIA is even sustainable and looking for other things to potentially replace it with.

 

Legal sustainability is also in question.

 

Ordering modafinil can have unpleasant consequences in Japan and tianeptine has much "better" abuse potential than modafinil 

 

https://web.archive....nil_into_japan/

 

Though Japanese law might not reflect this at the moment, it probably will be updated at some point in future.

 

France is the home country of both tianeptine and modafinil, tianeptine is narcotics there and modafinil is just prescription drug with instructions to prescribe narcolepsy only, no scheduling.

 

In France tianeptine is narcotics, "Duration of prescription restricted to 28 days", so you get prescription for it for maximum 28 days, then you have to go to doctor again for doctor to estimate whether you are abusing the substance and whether you still have need for another max 28 day prescription.

 

http://www.has-sante...10411_12029.pdf

 

Substances like morphine and oxycodone fall under same "prescription limited to 28 days" rule, so it wouldn't be surprising if Japan started to treat tianeptine like other opiates in the future.

 

 

 


Edited by Finn, 09 November 2018 - 06:12 AM.


#72 floweryriddle

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Posted 09 November 2018 - 10:49 AM

I've trialed Selegiline 5-15mg for the past 3 days and it feels about 5% similar to the effect of Dexedrine/Adderall.  15mg on it's own really didn't do much by itself and maybe even caused some afternoon fatigue.  However, 5mg stacked with 1/4 of an Armodafinil tab and it was almost too hyper and possibly bordering hypertensive, but the happy clarity was present for a few hours.  Too scared to go higher.

 

I'm also wondering about higher doses of Selegiline for ADHD treatment both singularly and adjunctively, so I hope that those with experience with doses over 10mg will provide their insights.  For now, I think I'll stick to 5mg BID with a small amount of Armodafinil.  

 

Standard Antidepressants (SSRIs) have always worsened ADHD for me even in combo with stimulant treatment.  Some may find a happy medium with this and docs like to prescribe this combo, but personally, I found more of a cancelling of effects rather than synergy, but that's in combination with amp products.  It could be different with MPH.  

 

With Tia's high efficacy rates for depression, it would make sense that upon cessation, you would have rebound of symptoms.  From my understanding, addiction and toxicity could become an issue when increasing dosages beyond the standard 12.5mg, 3x per day for the Sodium form.  However, I think the Sulphate form is supposed to be a smoother and longer lasting effect with fewer doses required, so perhaps thats an option. Does your doctor have any suggestions?  

  

For more standard treatments, I've heard that Lamictal can work well in some as an adjunctive antidepressant treatment, but there is an adjustment period you have to go through.  When I tried the Lamictal/Dexedrine combo, I couldn't tolerate it due to anxiety and other side effects, but I've heard a few people speak favorably of it.  I've also heard that Abilify can work synergistically, but it's not something that I've personally tried.  

 

Give it some time. Takes a while until enough MAO in your body is inhibited. From my experience it'll feel a good amount different on day 1 and day 20. Although if you don't want MAO-A inhibition, better keep the dosages lower if you want to take it daily. 

 

SSRIs are the category of medication that I am currently not willing to try as long as I have other options. They scare me a good amount. 

 

I tried Tianeptine sulphate sulphate a few times (20mg - 30mg dosages) and didn't notice much from it. Just when it wore off, in the evening, it didn't feel so nice. I much prefer the Sodium variant, despite having to redose it a couple of times. 

 

 

Legal sustainability is also in question.

 

Ordering modafinil can have unpleasant consequences in Japan and tianeptine has much "better" abuse potential than modafinil 

 

https://web.archive....nil_into_japan/

 

Though Japanese law might not reflect this at the moment, it probably will be updated at some point in future.

 

France is the home country of both tianeptine and modafinil, tianeptine is narcotics there and modafinil is just prescription drug with instructions to prescribe narcolepsy only, no scheduling.

 

In France tianeptine is narcotics, "Duration of prescription restricted to 28 days", so you get prescription for it for maximum 28 days, then you have to go to doctor again for doctor to estimate whether you are abusing the substance and whether you still have need for another max 28 day prescription.

 

http://www.has-sante...10411_12029.pdf

 

Substances like morphine and oxycodone fall under same "prescription limited to 28 days" rule, so it wouldn't be surprising if Japan started to treat tianeptine like other opiates in the future.

 

Yeah good point. Currently online pharmacies in Japan still sell it, and Selegiline is categorized as containing stimulant material (don't really know how to translate 覚せい剤原料). Tianeptine doesn't seem to have this classification yet, but Modafinil on the other hand is a full blown psychostimulant and a lot more serious. 

 

I think it'll happen eventually, but might still take some time since the substance is very rare and unknown here still. Here's to hope that once it becomes more known, it'll actually become possible to get a prescription for it. 



#73 CWF1986

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Posted 10 November 2018 - 02:12 AM

I've trialed Selegiline 5-15mg for the past 3 days and it feels about 5% similar to the effect of Dexedrine/Adderall.  15mg on it's own really didn't do much by itself and maybe even caused some afternoon fatigue.  However, 5mg stacked with 1/4 of an Armodafinil tab and it was almost too hyper and possibly bordering hypertensive, but the happy clarity was present for a few hours.  Too scared to go higher.

 

I'm also wondering about higher doses of Selegiline for ADHD treatment both singularly and adjunctively, so I hope that those with experience with doses over 10mg will provide their insights.  For now, I think I'll stick to 5mg BID with a small amount of Armodafinil.  

 

Standard Antidepressants (SSRIs) have always worsened ADHD for me even in combo with stimulant treatment.  Some may find a happy medium with this and docs like to prescribe this combo, but personally, I found more of a cancelling of effects rather than synergy, but that's in combination with amp products.  It could be different with MPH.  

 

With Tia's high efficacy rates for depression, it would make sense that upon cessation, you would have rebound of symptoms.  From my understanding, addiction and toxicity could become an issue when increasing dosages beyond the standard 12.5mg, 3x per day for the Sodium form.  However, I think the Sulphate form is supposed to be a smoother and longer lasting effect with fewer doses required, so perhaps thats an option. Does your doctor have any suggestions?  

  

For more standard treatments, I've heard that Lamictal can work well in some as an adjunctive antidepressant treatment, but there is an adjustment period you have to go through.  When I tried the Lamictal/Dexedrine combo, I couldn't tolerate it due to anxiety and other side effects, but I've heard a few people speak favorably of it.  I've also heard that Abilify can work synergistically, but it's not something that I've personally tried.  

 

I'm not a fan of SSRIs myself.  But there are other classes of antidepressants that can help ease anxious depression.  Like the tetracyclics such as Rameron.  There's also the tricyclics selective for NRI.  Just be sure you get an ekg after blood levels of the med have had a chance to stabilize since the MachR can in rare instances mess up with your heart rythm.  

 

Just mentioning these in case tianeptine doesn't work out.



#74 floweryriddle

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 08:53 AM

Some updates:

The sadness and down-phase disappeared 1-2 days after my last post, so it was probably just rebound from the Tianeptine.
My shipment with powder made it through but I didn’t have time to make a solution yet, so the last days I went with just Concerta + Strattera + Selegiline.

I had a sports event coming up and usually stop Strattera before these events since it’s pretty heavy on my heart. So I took out the Strattera the last couple days to see what would happen. I also gave Selegiline a go by itself.

Let’s start with that: Selegiline by itself had very similar effects to MPH for me, just a lot weaker. When I’m on stimulants and start concentrate on something, I usually feel this sensation in my head building, getting stronger and stronger with deepening focus, the more I concentrate.
That happened with Selegiline as well, without MPH.

I think Selegiline is now in full effect in my current 5mg dosage. MPH feels stronger. Previously when I went too high I had this feeling of my head being numb or tranquilized and that came back a little bit, with a low dosage of just 27mg of Concerta. (My highest dosage was 54mg of Concerta a day, double of what I take now)

Taking out Strattera made my impulsiveness skyrocket. I’m sure there is also some sort of rebound impulsiveness from suddenly stopping it. I’m more... ‘jittery’ and restless, but at the same time I felt slightly more motivated because I immediately jumped to ideas and things that I wanted to do (=impulsivness). Just... a little too fast and without much thought which isn’t so great. I’m at only 25mg of Strattera which is already very very low though.

Since taking out Tianeptine I had a lot more down days than previously, but that was to be expected since it’s a antidepressant.


I consulted with my doctor about all of this motivation stuff, the virtual wall in my head, the sadness and so on with the hope that he would have a great idea. I told him previously I want to stay away from Serotonin uptake inhibitors, so he said he wants me to try a different medication to increase NET, but what I got was Nortriptyline, which looks to be another tricyclic for Serotonin+NET...

——

All in all, the stuff I just wrote is interesting, but it didn’t change a thing for my motivation. At least not as good as Tianeptine did previously.

The most interesting part was the impulsiveness <-> motivation thing, which makes me wonder what to do with Strattera. I like it’s effects, but maybe it makes me plan too much? Which matches with what some other people said about NET.
Without it though I feel very very impulsive. I talk to more people, but say things that I should filter first. I shouldn’t also be immediately excited about everything I hear.
The impulsiveness and excitement is good though when I can make myself excited about something I want to do.

With Strattera, I feel more calm and organized - more in control of what's happening. 

The next steps are to make a Tianeptine solution and start with 12.5mg / 3x day again to see if I can replicate the previous effects.

Another idea is to reduce Strattera further to once every 2 days instead of every day like I do now. 

Selegiline stays for now. The tricyclic, I didn't make up my mind yet. 


Edited by floweryriddle, 15 November 2018 - 09:15 AM.


#75 CWF1986

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 02:46 AM

Some updates:

The sadness and down-phase disappeared 1-2 days after my last post, so it was probably just rebound from the Tianeptine.
My shipment with powder made it through but I didn’t have time to make a solution yet, so the last days I went with just Concerta + Strattera + Selegiline.

I had a sports event coming up and usually stop Strattera before these events since it’s pretty heavy on my heart. So I took out the Strattera the last couple days to see what would happen. I also gave Selegiline a go by itself.

Let’s start with that: Selegiline by itself had very similar effects to MPH for me, just a lot weaker. When I’m on stimulants and start concentrate on something, I usually feel this sensation in my head building, getting stronger and stronger with deepening focus, the more I concentrate.
That happened with Selegiline as well, without MPH.

I think Selegiline is now in full effect in my current 5mg dosage. MPH feels stronger. Previously when I went too high I had this feeling of my head being numb or tranquilized and that came back a little bit, with a low dosage of just 27mg of Concerta. (My highest dosage was 54mg of Concerta a day, double of what I take now)

Taking out Strattera made my impulsiveness skyrocket. I’m sure there is also some sort of rebound impulsiveness from suddenly stopping it. I’m more... ‘jittery’ and restless, but at the same time I felt slightly more motivated because I immediately jumped to ideas and things that I wanted to do (=impulsivness). Just... a little too fast and without much thought which isn’t so great. I’m at only 25mg of Strattera which is already very very low though.

Since taking out Tianeptine I had a lot more down days than previously, but that was to be expected since it’s a antidepressant.


I consulted with my doctor about all of this motivation stuff, the virtual wall in my head, the sadness and so on with the hope that he would have a great idea. I told him previously I want to stay away from Serotonin uptake inhibitors, so he said he wants me to try a different medication to increase NET, but what I got was Nortriptyline, which looks to be another tricyclic for Serotonin+NET...

——

All in all, the stuff I just wrote is interesting, but it didn’t change a thing for my motivation. At least not as good as Tianeptine did previously.

The most interesting part was the impulsiveness <-> motivation thing, which makes me wonder what to do with Strattera. I like it’s effects, but maybe it makes me plan too much? Which matches with what some other people said about NET.
Without it though I feel very very impulsive. I talk to more people, but say things that I should filter first. I shouldn’t also be immediately excited about everything I hear.
The impulsiveness and excitement is good though when I can make myself excited about something I want to do.

With Strattera, I feel more calm and organized - more in control of what's happening. 

The next steps are to make a Tianeptine solution and start with 12.5mg / 3x day again to see if I can replicate the previous effects.

Another idea is to reduce Strattera further to once every 2 days instead of every day like I do now. 

Selegiline stays for now. The tricyclic, I didn't make up my mind yet. 

 

Nortriptyline doesn't really do much with serotonin at all.  If it does it's at a 10 to 1 ratio of NRI to SRI respectively.  I wouldn't let that worry you at all. I hope that helps you out.



#76 floweryriddle

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 04:43 AM

Nortriptyline doesn't really do much with serotonin at all.  If it does it's at a 10 to 1 ratio of NRI to SRI respectively.  I wouldn't let that worry you at all. I hope that helps you out.

 

Ohh thanks! I must have misread that somewhere. I'll give it a go for the next weeks and see what happens. Though unsure what the advantage is of prescribing this over just more Strattera. 

 

I'll report back sometime in a week! 



#77 cat-nips

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 04:58 AM

Nortriptyline in conjunction with Tia? Or in lieu of it?

#78 CWF1986

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 09:24 AM

Ohh thanks! I must have misread that somewhere. I'll give it a go for the next weeks and see what happens. Though unsure what the advantage is of prescribing this over just more Strattera. 

 

I'll report back sometime in a week! 

 

A lot of your symptoms you listed sound like they fall under the depression category and Strattera doesn't have a very good track record for treating it.  In fact, it seems to have some reputation for causing it and suicidal ideation although I really have no clue how fairly that rep was earned.

 

Even a 'cleaner' tricyclic like nortriptyline is still a broad spectrum medication.  Which isn't necessarily good or bad.  In addition to its monoamine activity, tt's also got it's H1 antagonism, Machr antagonism, some stuff dealing with the sodium channels that theoretically is helpful for pain issues including the physical aches and pains of depression, and it has some sort of effect at the alpha receptors which can potentially cause the side of orthostatic hypotension.  

 

How much each one these if all of these at contribute to the antidepressant effect is unknown.  We only have theories and hypotheticals to go on.  


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#79 gamesguru

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 01:57 AM

Why has this thread gone down the road of depression?  I am trying to steer it back.  Inattentiveness, distractability, and lack of focus are often due to other factors even once depression is controlled for or eliminated :sleep:

 

I have cured my depression with natural substances and am quite satisfied with the ease and effectiveness of it.

 

But I am still seeking out a solution to my driftiness and my tendency at the office to play music and breakdance and beatbox.  If anyone has found a good one please share, you know more than I.


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#80 floweryriddle

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 05:19 AM

Why has this thread gone down the road of depression?  I am trying to steer it back.  Inattentiveness, distractability, and lack of focus are often due to other factors even once depression is controlled for or eliminated :sleep:

 

I have cured my depression with natural substances and am quite satisfied with the ease and effectiveness of it.

 

But I am still seeking out a solution to my driftiness and my tendency at the office to play music and breakdance and beatbox.  If anyone has found a good one please share, you know more than I.

 

I think in the general scope of ADHD, inattentiveness + distractibility + lack of focus are pretty normal issues and have clear medication to combat them (namely stimulants). However, stimulants in most cases don't seem to help with the "ADHD wall".  

To 'why depression', I think it just ended up here because antidepressants (namely Tianeptine) showed good results. 

 

 

Only slightly related to this post, but I have a question to people more experienced with tricyclics. I ran into this post here titled "Antidepressant withdrawal: reviewing the paper behind the headlines". It made front page on hackernews and especially the experience reports from long period tricyclics / SSRI / SNRI sounds very terrifying. CWF1986 mentioned nortriptyline is 'cleaner' but it's still very unsettling to continue with the fear of nasty withdrawals looming. What do you think? 

 

 

Update to this post from my experiment: 

 

- As mentioned previously, I am experimenting with Strattera on and off, and while it checks my impulsiveness and makes me more organized, it might also suppress impulsivity I need to get to start new stuff (= motivation). I wonder if this is something related to strattera, or norepinephrine in general. This is interesting because it somewhat matches what cat-nips mentioned previously: 

 

 

 


Consider lowering or even eliminating Strattera. I have noticed that anything that works on Norepinephrine too much, helps in planning abilities BUT at the cost of lowered actual completion rates and lowered ability to devise new ideas.  Meaning I run in circles and spend massive amounts of time planning, but not actually doing. 

 

- I finished preparing my Tianeptine Sodium solution (it dissolves really well in de-ionized water!) and started supplementing it again.

Tianeptine feels a little bit like it's pushing me to do things. Like I want to get up and do things. Maybe differently phrased, it feels like I am exciting myself more to do certain things. 

But without Strattera and increased impulsiveness this sometimes feels like I want to do it right now and not wait. It's the ADHD problem of 'what is an impulse and what is reasonable'. 



#81 cat-nips

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Posted 22 November 2018 - 03:55 PM

I think that for a lot of people, stimulants will exacerbate or even cause mood swings from the crashes, even at therapeutic doses.  So the depression treatment is often prescribed alongside to attempt to mitigate some of those effects, but it's problematic.  It's not classic depression per se, but one caused by the side effects of the stims, yet the symptoms are the same and treated as such by the medical community in regards to ADHD.  Also, comorbidities are also high in ADHD due to the negative toll it takes from years and years of suffering with the symptoms of ADHD in the case of depression, and stims will potentially cause a bunch of anxiety that wasn't there before.  So, regardless of where it came from or how it came about, it's all treated the same way.  After years of trials the person usually and hopefully comes to some sort of balance as to how much they need to function in life and get their work/school and just general tasks done, at the cost of anxiety, depression, and trying to keep the other parts of their personality and life in check.  It's not an easy path.  Sometimes people are able to wean off after awhile, but it's difficult, even at therapeutic, standard and consistent doses.  

 

For the non-habituated, non ADHD person looking for relief from some minor focus issues, there are safer alternatives like Tyrosine, EGCG, DLPA, high doses of EPA, etc.  Tyrosine/Coffee seems to be effective to a point if the right dosage is found.  ALCAR/DLPA/Green Tea seems to work for some too, as do some of the more stimulating racetams and Aniracetam.  Even 2 regular, plain Lipton tea bags (black), does the trick for short bursts.  At one point I was going through 10 black tea bags per day, every day for years to get through work.  Some of those things may help those on stims as well, alongside their normal meds to either potentiate them, alleviate crashes, or for dosage reduction.

 

Flowery, I have no input on the tricyclics.  It's one class of meds that I really don't know much about both personally and from heresay.  I'm sure you've done your research to know if there are any contraindications or safety issues with the other things you're trialing.  That would be my only concern. 

 

Yeah, with norepinephrine, I can make lists and plans and spend ridiculous amounts of time organizing my life, but I don't really do much of the things that I've scheduled in that state.  I only want to incessantly organize.  It can be helpful for the norepinephrine push to get you physically going and plan away, but seems to blunt some creative thought processes and the "fire" or the reason for the motivation, and for me, blunts some of the creativity in generating new ideas or adapting and going with the flow.  But if you already know what you're doing and how to get there, then NE can give you a push and help with impulsivity and distractibility.  Personally, too much NE makes me into a total raging bitch and I hate putting the people around me through that.  But without any, I'm kind of useless to do anything.  That balance is really important.  I've never tried Strattera, but I've used extensively, Wellbutrin, Phentermine, Methylphenidate, lots of coffee, and currently Armodafinil, which all work highly on NE.  

 

Tianeptine is novel.  Works unlike anything else out there by lowering Serotonin and increasing Dopamine?  It's apparently effective at those doses, but try not to go higher.  Its shown to be reinforcing, so try some natural cofactors instead if you ever feel the need to dose more.  The tox reports, addiction reports and withdrawals are plentiful for dosages above the recommended 12.5mg, three times a day.  

 

As far as the selegiline, I've gone up to 20mg, but its no Dexedrine.  It helps a little and I'm surely more focused, evidenced by the amount of learning that I've managed to accomplish the last two weeks, compared to the zero that I did for months before that, only stressing about it.  If you're taking it with the MPH, then it would definitely potentiate it and keep it from breaking down as well as providing a little of the creativity that amps seem to give.  I've settled on about 10mg, once per day with some B6, C and a small amount of DLPA.  But I still need the NE push to get going and it's still not as effective as stim treatment, while having some of the same negative side effects like increased rage and irritability and sleep disturbance.  

 

At one point I trialed Vyvanse and small MPH IR booster for the crash, but was not happy with the results so abandoned the MPH.  But they did let me have both at different dosages and times throughout the day.  I've also seen a few psychiatrists who claim to use the small dose MAOI with stim treatment, so I think it can be effective if you're careful.  Maybe ask your doc for a beta blocker or something to use PRN as needed, just to lower blood pressure if it ever gets too high.  You can try to claim its for occasional performance anxiety at work and claim a friend told you about it?  If not, there are natural things you can try to look into to lower it.  BP monitors are affordable and can be handy to have around.  

 

I've seen a few other anecdotals on Tia/Selegiline that were positive, so I think you could be onto something there.  Tia also seems to be somewhat helpful in some ADHD populations, but there isn't too much research there.  I'd try Tia myself, but I'm a little nervous about the reinforcing factor and it seems a bit expensive to sustain.  I'm in a similar ADHD problem boat.  Tread carefully and best of luck.  


Edited by cat-nips, 22 November 2018 - 04:06 PM.


#82 CWF1986

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 07:33 PM

I don't think I've mentioned it in this thread, although I have on these forums, is combo of supps that's actually fairly effective for the cognitive and motivational symptoms.

 

Rhodiola Rosea- mostly it makes other stimulants more effective for me

Theacrine- This one's my favorite!  It's kind of like caffeine but tolerance builds very slowly if at all and it's much much more of a mental stimulation.  It last for a few hours instead of just a couple too.

oxiracetam- phenylracetam helps me tons with focus, aniracetam helps with restlessness and focus, and noopept gives me more 'aha!' moments, but oxi is the best for motivation for me.  Haven't tried prami, but I'm hesitant because it seems to be the most cholinergic of the bunch.

 

The combo gives me about 2/3's the motivation and focus that adderall gives, but does nothing for restlessness. 



#83 cat-nips

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 08:20 PM

Cool. Thanks for the input. What combo were you referring to specifically, as you mentioned a few there? Do you dose everyday or just as needed? I always wonder if daily racetams are ok to take over long periods. I have found subtle effects with ani, oxi, and phenyl myself at different times but it was always sporadic.

Considering an oxi regimen now for learning purposes. Have you ever tried Faso?

Selegiline even at 20mg by itself doesn’t do enough and can’t replace the moda in my current stack. It’s definitely an adjunct and keeper but not helpful enough on its own. Bummer.

Have found nothing to be as effective as Dexedrine. Even after nearly a year of trying to find other safer alternatives. Modafinil maybe came closest at around 50%.

#84 CWF1986

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 08:28 PM

The combo of all three of them.  The rhodiola, theacrine, and oxi.  I take these when I take adderall holidays.  These 'holidays' are usually 3-5 days and I also take delsym at the dose recommended for cough and uridine each night and the stim trio makes the discontinuation syndrome of adderall not so bad, the delsym (active ingredient: dextromethorphan polistirex) resets nmda receptors I think... and the uridine I think helps increase dopamine receptors.  

 

I find this very effective at resetting my tolerance to where I want it.  


Edited by CWF1986, 24 November 2018 - 08:30 PM.


#85 cat-nips

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Posted 24 November 2018 - 08:58 PM

Interesting combo I would have never considered.  Thanks for sharing.  Yeah, the dxm is an nmda receptor antagonist, as are magnesium and memantine, in varying degrees.  All of which i've heard can be helpful for resetting tolerance. Magnesium before sleep is probably a good thing to supplement with anyway if you're on any kind of stim treatment, especially.   Is it Uridine Monophosphate or Triacetyluridine that you use? Is it calming and sleep inducing for you, and do you dose sublingually?


Edited by cat-nips, 24 November 2018 - 09:00 PM.


#86 CWF1986

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Posted 25 November 2018 - 02:54 AM

Interesting combo I would have never considered.  Thanks for sharing.  Yeah, the dxm is an nmda receptor antagonist, as are magnesium and memantine, in varying degrees.  All of which i've heard can be helpful for resetting tolerance. Magnesium before sleep is probably a good thing to supplement with anyway if you're on any kind of stim treatment, especially.   Is it Uridine Monophosphate or Triacetyluridine that you use? Is it calming and sleep inducing for you, and do you dose sublingually?

 

Uridine monophosphate.  I dose sublingually.  It almost taste like what soy sauce would be like if it were crystallized :)  It actually does help me sleep and give energy in the day.  If I take it at the same time I take adderall, it blunts the effects of the adderall.  

 

I take a ZMA product before bed every night.  I don't think it does much concerning tolerance but it definitely helps with restlessness both when I sleep and throughout the day from the 1x a day dosing before going to bed.  



#87 cat-nips

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 02:22 PM

Interesting on the Uridine.  I'm working on composing a new stack with Uridine and racetams.  Selegiline, I've scaled back to 5mg as there were some anticholinergic and other side effects that kept coming up that were making me uncomfortable.  Focus was improved, but there was a slight demotivational aspect which killed all desire to exercise, be physical, or just do the day-to-day things of life that need to be done. 

 

I may keep it at 5mg, or dose only a few times a week for anti-aging benefits, but it doesn't help with ADHD.  Not in an acceptable way for me, at least.  



#88 cat-nips

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Posted 01 December 2018 - 05:59 PM

Hey flower, during my Uridine research, I came across a post a year old from you regarding uridine supplementation.  Your thoughts?  What did you take? How much?  What else was in your stack, etc, and most importantly, your general thoughts on your experimentation?

 

It's funny because I've been there too.  Longecity is both awesome and unnerving in helping me remember things regarding supplement regimens and etc.  I reported that I was having some success with Moda and Uridine in the past.  But it must not have lasted long because I don't remember it doing very much except giving inconsistent sides and some mood swings.  I resumed treatment shortly afterwards with various prescription stim cocktails and lost any progress or recollection of what I may have done and went about picking up the pieces of my issues, trying to advance myself for the next few years with much improved focus but really fucked up side effects and some worrisome health ones. 

 

Yes, this is my second attempt to quit stim treatment and manage ADHD and related symptoms more naturally.  The first attempt didn't work and I ended up screwing up my life in trying to wait for my brain to heal.  This time has been easier and a bit more functional and I have a better idea of what I should expect.  Or maybe I've just fucked up my life again and I would have been better off staying on treatment.  

 

Sorry for the bit of the rant.  Yes, its troublesome and the nature of the meds or the condition that causes you to take the . meds, is all really depression-inducing and chronic.  Sigh.  Now considering an alternating phenylpiracetam/oxi rotation stack maybe with some ciltep and uridine.  



#89 floweryriddle

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 12:50 AM

Hi cat-nips!
Keep in mind it takes a while for MAO to cycle. Might be good to skip a few days.

I had good success with Uridine, but more in a mood booster. It was very similar in effects caffeine, but cleaner and left me very happy for the first couple of hours.
I did the Mr.Happy stack with sublingual Uridine, Omega3, B-complex and a Choline supplement. Why I stopped, I’m not sure. I think I ran out of Choline+Omega3 supplements, and Japan is also against importing choline supplements.
It’s on my list to try again (mentioned that somewhere in the earlier posts of this thread), but first need to get some more choline.
It was also very different with and without omega3 supplement. The effects with high dosage of fish oil were so much better than without.



My personal thoughts: Stay on stimulants. ADHD is a disorder and having to take medicine for it is just how things are. You can get some relief from other substances, but stimulants are still king in my opinion, and I am very grateful for having Concerta in my life. No other drug/supplement has allowed me to improve my life this well. Methylphenidate specifically has also been around forever and is widely studied.

Yes constant stimulant usage isn’t good and I try to take break-days whenever possible. With Selegiline I was able to reduce 54mg of Concerta at the highest, to now 27mg a day with very occasionally an extra 18mg if I really need it. My doctor looked at me strange when I said I want to dial down to 27mg.
(But just the usual warning, if you’re thinking of going back to stimulants, make sure Selegiline is low enough to not touch MAO-A)



Other updates (since I”m already writing a reply to this thread):
- Still experimenting with Tianeptine
- I stopped with norepinephrine completely. Impulsiveness is still through the roof and I’m more all over the place, but I feel happier and more motivated to do things. I will bring up the norepinephrine theory with my doc next week.
- Having more “numb brain” feelings these days. That’s what I usually got when I took tricyclics, other antidepressants or high dosages of Concerta. Tried to take out meds and substances to find out what’s causing it, but I’m still not sure. Maybe the Concerta with Selegiline resulting in too much dopamine, maybe it’s an imbalance between dopamine and norepinephrine? Maybe it’s Tianeptine + Concerta?

(I am by far not a medical professional, but) I am now more thinking the motivation-wall has something to do with impulsiveness in some way, which might or might not be related to norepinephrine.
It’s interesting to see that increasing norepinephrine is making planning things better, but not doing, and letting impulsiveness flow free is increasing motivation to start new things (but this could just be my specific norepinephrine levels).

Tianeptine helps with sparking excitement about certain things and making my mood more bright. I will also bring this up with my doctor and try to see if it’s possible to get a prescription for it instead of the tricyclic (if that’s even possible in Japan).

I feel like I am more settling down on my combo with Selegiline, Concerta and TIA (next to supplements like omega3, allicin, etc). Strattera I’m not sure, gotta trial more. Maybe some specific dosage of the 4 will give me the best results?
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#90 DrewMichael21

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Posted 02 December 2018 - 12:52 AM

    Agreed, if you do find an alternative treatment to ADHD other than stimulants, I'm open ear at this point. Been off 3 points and it's been dog crap as of late. My old tendencies exist, either I suppress it or I don't. On a positive note my, habits still exist it's just very hard to maintain without my stimulant medication. I'll probably make a decision within the coming months on getting medicated again. My potential was leveled out as well, simply because of the issues of impulsivity, which I still struggle to suppress. Most of my old stacks are largely useless at this point. Not really, sure what more can be done? I've investigated into majority of the literature and their are no new revolutionary treatments in the pipelines, it feels hopeless as of late. Ironically, my life is pretty good but I've been unable to hedge it to any advantage for obvious reasons.  I'm curious flower Riddle, if you have solved the issue of the zombie effect caused by medication which doesn't allow you to control vibes effectively. If my medication would allow me to do this one single thing I would be significantly happier. As I would have the ability to enjoy life and work towards my goals more constructively than what I'm doing now.  If you figure this issue, out you will have helped many ADHD-PI people. I continue to underachieve in my view, which is of no real surprise. On medication or concerta I was full of anger depression, and unable to attend to social functions without social consequences. I would probably trade military service for this, if we could somehow solve this issue. Yet, I've pondered this issue for years and have found no logistical answer. It's of concern, that I probably won't achieve my potential without the assistance of medication, copying mechanisms are simply not enough to close the gap of neurotypical to non-neurotypical. They very much have a disgusting advantage over us neurodivergent individuals and for that I hate them for it yet their's nothing I know I can do. I've exhausted all options. Have you ever considered benzedrine or choline or even the blood pressure drug used to increase bloodflow to the prefrontal cortex and "assist" in medication functioning? It may be of some siginficant use to you.  Ultimately, I feel the dilemma of medication, is balancing it to where you have just a great amount of focus and not too much anxiety to be unable to dictate the vibe. Too much focus leads to you beocming a zombie and too much anxiety leads to panic attacks. To be yourself means to underachieve and to be medicated means to achieve but to feel no enjoyment in life? What a sadistic paradox that is? One I've been dealing with for years. What to do, What to do?  Keep up the good work.


Edited by DrewMichael21, 02 December 2018 - 01:08 AM.

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