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Tackling ADHD induced(?) lack of motivation

adhd methylphenidate

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#31 CWF1986

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 06:03 AM

The selegiline by itself does a really good job with focus and motivation.  It even helps improve my mood a little, at least in conjunction with the nortriptyline I also take.  So the nortriptyline and selegiline combo just about fix up the cognitive and motivational symptoms of my adhd.  It's so nice to be able to pop out of bed in the morning and be able to focus and concentrate on what I need to do without waiting for the adderall to start working!  It also makes getting ready for the next day in the evening much easier since I still have relief of many of my syptoms at that time.

 

However, the selegiline doesn't do much regarding restlessness and my ability to control my emotions.  The adderall does a much better job of that.  

 

I'll keep ya'll posted for the combined effects of DLPA and selegiline. 



#32 jacobjerondin

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 06:16 AM

Thanks gamesguru, great suggestions. Mostly stuff I was familiar with, but it never hurts to get more info.

 

I think rhamnetin sounds pretty interesting but it seems impossible to get beyond a custom synth unfortunately. 

 

Def very interested in selegiline and more importantly rasagiline, which is the better version of seleg, as I understand things. However, I am concerned about the potential for MAO-B upregulation and bad withdrawal when getting off either. I've also heard that they stop working over time, which makes sense, and would make me even more concerned about MAO-B upregulation.



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#33 floweryriddle

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 06:49 AM

Def very interested in selegiline and more importantly rasagiline, which is the better version of seleg, as I understand things. However, I am concerned about the potential for MAO-B upregulation and bad withdrawal when getting off either. I've also heard that they stop working over time, which makes sense, and would make me even more concerned about MAO-B upregulation.

 

I think if you are looking for something for actual ADHD, Selegiline might be better than Rasagiline since it's metabolized into L-methylamphetamine. Rasagiline was afaik made specifically to not have have that.



#34 gamesguru

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 02:14 PM

The selegiline by itself does a really good job with focus and motivation.

However, the selegiline doesn't do much regarding restlessness

 

honestly then how effective is it really.  i'm not going to jump boats on some almost-contradictory testimony.

 

rasagiline also has the disadvantage of not being as widely available as selegiline

 

@jacobjerondin

rhamnetin is naturally available.  I'm releasing a Nutritracker app here soon, you will need Python 3.6.5+... you can monitor Isorhamnetin, Quercetin and your intake of hundreds of other uncommon nutrients.

Til then, I recommend pungent yellow and red onions.  They have quercetin as well, and are actually really tasty!  Flavonoids and polyphenols make you feel young again



#35 jack black

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Posted 30 October 2018 - 02:37 PM

 

However, the selegiline doesn't do much regarding restlessness and my ability to control my emotions.  The adderall does a much better job of that.  

 

 

 

you need serotonin boost to help with emotions. amphs help with serotonin release. you could consider adding tryptophan or 5HTP or low dose SSRI instead of amphs (that are neurotoxic even in regular doses). even low dose lithium can help.
 


Edited by jack black, 30 October 2018 - 02:38 PM.


#36 CWF1986

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 05:47 AM

you need serotonin boost to help with emotions. amphs help with serotonin release. you could consider adding tryptophan or 5HTP or low dose SSRI instead of amphs (that are neurotoxic even in regular doses). even low dose lithium can help.
 

 

I've tried everyone of those, lexapro, and buspirone and they help with things like rumination and worry but they can actually make restlessness worse.  

 

So far, the only things I've found to help with the restlessness aspect are dopaminergic stimulants, clonidine and guanfacine preparations, nicotine, and to a minor but not negligible extent aniracetam.  

 

Both clonidine and guanfacine leave me too vulnerable to depression. 

 

I'll never be a smoker.  I've tried patches and gum but I get very bad headaches before I get adequate symptom relief.  

 

Aniracetam works well as an adjunct, but doesn't do enough on its own.  



#37 CWF1986

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 06:11 AM

honestly then how effective is it really.  i'm not going to jump boats on some almost-contradictory testimony.

 

 

 

It's not too uncommon to take multiple meds for a single condition.  This is true of many psychiatric conditions and adhd isn't an exemption.  

 

Different meds can help with different aspects of the condition.  

 

You don't cure/treat the adhd, you only lessen the symptoms so you take medicine to treat the symptoms.  

 

I'm not trying to sell anyone on selegiline.  I'm just putting my trial out there so others can then make their own judgement whether or not to try it with an n=+1 more experience.  

 

Because of how much the selegiline helps with motivation and mood (less rumination/worry), the so far lack of sides, and how inexpensive Indian generic seleg. is I'm going to keep this one in unless there are issues in the future with it.  Which is a real possibility.  I remember with lexapro it was great the 1st two months and then basically flipped my anxious depression into a lethargic apathetic depression even after reducing the dose.  So I am keeping a personal log with this one.  Oh!  Btw, it even plays nice with adderall unlike bupropion.

 

So far, it's basically everything I liked about bupropion but without the sides of bup. when taken in combo with adderall including increased worry/rumination and very high blood pressure.

 

For those lurking and thinking about trying what I and others are doing, please keep in mind that selegiline is not just another racetam, adaptogen, or whatnot, but a pharmaceutical medication that demands respect and care.  Ideally you'd have trained medical supervision, but if that's not possible you need to learn as much as you can about the med.  Not just the exciting good possibilities, but also the negative ones.  For example, I didn't just keep taking my full dose of adderall with it because I know for some there can be a very bad interaction.  But after carefully titrating the adderall back in and carefull monitering blood pressure and behaviour I found out that I can take the full adderall dose without negative effects to date.  I'm still monitering.  

 

Wish me luck!


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#38 DrewMichael21

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 07:29 AM

  I recommend you check out my reference thread, for ADHD-PI treatment ONLY.  It's important that you realize that everything that you do will have significant tradeoffs from one over the other. Secondly, it's important to realize, that 99% of nootropics are purely placebo, I've already been through hundreds of dollars of stacks from apparently the best one and done tons of trial and errors, none of them had any discernible effect whatsoever, except for maybe fishoil and vb6. Thirdly, it's important to realize, that the most effect methods for dealing with ADHD-PI is to simply plan in advance for the stupidity that occurs with this disorder. For example, if I know that I won't pay my bill consistently, then I simply pay the entire bill for the whole year in advanced. Fourthly, work towards just being open with your adhd and see if your work will provide you accommodations for when you run out of willpower, which will almost inevitably occur whether you want to or not. I've all but stop wasting my time with neurostacks, simply because they do not work from my experimental trials. What we really, need is a whole new type of drug, that treats the core issues of the executive deficits we have such as the following; working memory, impulsivity, emotional regulation, ability to attend to details, without having to force us to sacrifice one factor over the other. What's the point of taking medication, when you have to sacrifice the vibe for the other. If your unable to dictate situations, your just a zombie who won't be happy, so what's the point really? Next, we need to start looking at this problem from not a chemical issue but a neurodevelopmental issue or potentially outright brain damage that we may have. If it really was a chemical problem, then those drugs would be a cure, but there not they only address certain aspects of the issue. Why is this? If it was simply just a dopamine and nonereneprine problem, then it would simple as just administering the correct amount of these chemicals to fix this imbalance and in theory we should be normal. Yet, this simply isn't the case, even when medicated, I still forgot things and had problems being able to prioritize correctly and emotional dsyregulation was still there. Thus, this is basically evidence that the problem may be partially chemical but it isn't chemical, it has to do with the very architecture of the brain. In all of the ADHD literature, there's a reoccuring narrative of an underactive RAS or reticular activating formation, which is basically the seat of arousal, conciousness, and filtering of information. Which explains why WE have to be conscious of EVERYTHING and why we have to many interests. I don't know the answer but just take heart and realize that your issue probably isn't a chemical one 99% certain of this. Goodluck.



#39 floweryriddle

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 07:54 AM

  I recommend you check out my reference thread, for ADHD-PI treatment ONLY.  It's important that you realize that everything that you do will have significant tradeoffs from one over the other. Secondly, it's important to realize, that 99% of nootropics are purely placebo, I've already been through hundreds of dollars of stacks from apparently the best one and done tons of trial and errors, none of them had any discernible effect whatsoever, except for maybe fishoil and vb6. Thirdly, it's important to realize, that the most effect methods for dealing with ADHD-PI is to simply plan in advance for the stupidity that occurs with this disorder. For example, if I know that I won't pay my bill consistently, then I simply pay the entire bill for the whole year in advanced. Fourthly, work towards just being open with your adhd and see if your work will provide you accommodations for when you run out of willpower, which will almost inevitably occur whether you want to or not. I've all but stop wasting my time with neurostacks, simply because they do not work from my experimental trials. What we really, need is a whole new type of drug, that treats the core issues of the executive deficits we have such as the following; working memory, impulsivity, emotional regulation, ability to attend to details, without having to force us to sacrifice one factor over the other. What's the point of taking medication, when you have to sacrifice the vibe for the other. If your unable to dictate situations, your just a zombie who won't be happy, so what's the point really? Next, we need to start looking at this problem from not a chemical issue but a neurodevelopmental issue or potentially outright brain damage that we may have. If it really was a chemical problem, then those drugs would be a cure, but there not they only address certain aspects of the issue. Why is this? If it was simply just a dopamine and nonereneprine problem, then it would simple as just administering the correct amount of these chemicals to fix this imbalance and in theory we should be normal. Yet, this simply isn't the case, even when medicated, I still forgot things and had problems being able to prioritize correctly and emotional dsyregulation was still there. Thus, this is basically evidence that the problem may be partially chemical but it isn't chemical, it has to do with the very architecture of the brain. In all of the ADHD literature, there's a reoccuring narrative of an underactive RAS or reticular activating formation, which is basically the seat of arousal, conciousness, and filtering of information. Which explains why WE have to be conscious of EVERYTHING and why we have to many interests. I don't know the answer but just take heart and realize that your issue probably isn't a chemical one 99% certain of this. Goodluck.

 

Since this is a ADHD thread, could you maybe add a few paragraphs and newlines inbetween your post? It's a little hard to read 

Edited by floweryriddle, 31 October 2018 - 07:57 AM.

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#40 CWF1986

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 09:18 AM

  I recommend you check out my reference thread, for ADHD-PI treatment ONLY.  It's important that you realize that everything that you do will have significant tradeoffs from one over the other. Secondly, it's important to realize, that 99% of nootropics are purely placebo, I've already been through hundreds of dollars of stacks from apparently the best one and done tons of trial and errors, none of them had any discernible effect whatsoever, except for maybe fishoil and vb6. Thirdly, it's important to realize, that the most effect methods for dealing with ADHD-PI is to simply plan in advance for the stupidity that occurs with this disorder. For example, if I know that I won't pay my bill consistently, then I simply pay the entire bill for the whole year in advanced. Fourthly, work towards just being open with your adhd and see if your work will provide you accommodations for when you run out of willpower, which will almost inevitably occur whether you want to or not. I've all but stop wasting my time with neurostacks, simply because they do not work from my experimental trials. What we really, need is a whole new type of drug, that treats the core issues of the executive deficits we have such as the following; working memory, impulsivity, emotional regulation, ability to attend to details, without having to force us to sacrifice one factor over the other. What's the point of taking medication, when you have to sacrifice the vibe for the other. If your unable to dictate situations, your just a zombie who won't be happy, so what's the point really? Next, we need to start looking at this problem from not a chemical issue but a neurodevelopmental issue or potentially outright brain damage that we may have. If it really was a chemical problem, then those drugs would be a cure, but there not they only address certain aspects of the issue. Why is this? If it was simply just a dopamine and nonereneprine problem, then it would simple as just administering the correct amount of these chemicals to fix this imbalance and in theory we should be normal. Yet, this simply isn't the case, even when medicated, I still forgot things and had problems being able to prioritize correctly and emotional dsyregulation was still there. Thus, this is basically evidence that the problem may be partially chemical but it isn't chemical, it has to do with the very architecture of the brain. In all of the ADHD literature, there's a reoccuring narrative of an underactive RAS or reticular activating formation, which is basically the seat of arousal, conciousness, and filtering of information. Which explains why WE have to be conscious of EVERYTHING and why we have to many interests. I don't know the answer but just take heart and realize that your issue probably isn't a chemical one 99% certain of this. Goodluck.

 

First, I want you to know I think you're trying to be helpful and have good intentions on this board FWIW.  I'm not trying to put you down.

 

But, I and others very strongly believe that there might be something other than adhd going on with you.  That's not to say you don't have it, but if you do I think it's very likely there's something else going on in addition to that.

 

I watched your youtube that was posted in this thread and after having been brought up with a bipolar dad and living underneath the same roof with my schizophrenic ex sister-in-law in my untrained (no formal medical education or training only my life experience of being surrounded by people with various behavioral health issues and my personal research) it really looks like there's some manic and/or schizophrenic type thing going on with you.  

 

Full disclosure, I'm not nearly as familiar either intellectually or experientially with bipolar or schizophrenia as I am with anxiety, depression, and adhd.

 

What I'm really trying to say is that I very strongly believe that you should be open to the possibility that you might have additional/or other behavioral health issues.

 

You're welcome to jog my memory a little, but I think you said something about having negative issues with stimulants.  Have you tried something selective for NRI and/or one of the two approved alpha agonists. What's next is just what I can think of off the top of my head. 

 

Selective for NRI for adhd:

Atomoxetine (strattera) US: FDA approved

 

Tricyclics In order of selectivity for NRI:

Desipramine

Protryptyline

Nortriptyline: known to be the tricyclic with the least sides and is often a very calming med.

 

Reboxetine: currently being looked into for treatment of adhd but does not to date have US FDA approval

 

Alpha Agonist (used mostly for blood pressure):  From my experience, these help with reducing restlessness and increase my ability to gather and collect my thoughts.  If indeed your issues are adhd

Kapvay:  extended release clonidine approved by the US FDA for adhd

Intuniv:  extended release guanfacine approved by the US FDA for adhd

Catapress: instant release clonidine.  it's been around for a while and a generic is available so it's fairly inexpensive.  Sometimes used off-label for anxiety and from my personal experience from having once been prescribed, it's not hard to see why. 

Tenex:  instant release guanfacine.  it's been around for a while and a generic is available so it's fairly inexpensive

 

I would also try to be a little more open minded with your docs and the world in general.  You talk as if you've got it all figured out and you don't.   That's not a put down, that's just part of the human condition.    Maybe you don't mean it that way, but it comes off that way in your vid and your posts.  You would probably get better treatment from you docs if you didn't come off that way.  It will help with interacting with people in general.

 

I really think you're your own worst enemy at this time.

 

Regardless of what you do, don't do, listen to, don't listen to I wish you the best of luck.  If nothing else, I can tell you're distraught and suffering for sure you have my genuine sympathy.  


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#41 jack black

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:34 PM

I've tried everyone of those, lexapro, and buspirone and they help with things like rumination and worry but they can actually make restlessness worse.  

 

 

drugs that work on the 5HT side lower dopamine and vice versa. hard to have best of both words if you are like me with both emotional problems (high neuroticism, anxiety, depression, etc) and ADHD.

 

now I'm thinking about a rotation cycle where I use stimulants on workdays and pro-5HT on weekends.

 

BTW, bad sleep, bad diet, and chaos/stress ruin my emotions, so a lot of emotion improvement can be achieved by healthy lifestyle, but only if ADHD doesn't interfere with it.


Edited by jack black, 31 October 2018 - 02:38 PM.


#42 cat-nips

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:39 PM

I've tried everyone of those, lexapro, and buspirone and they help with things like rumination and worry but they can actually make restlessness worse.  

 

So far, the only things I've found to help with the restlessness aspect are dopaminergic stimulants, clonidine and guanfacine preparations, nicotine, and to a minor but not negligible extent aniracetam.  

 

Both clonidine and guanfacine leave me too vulnerable to depression. 

 

I'll never be a smoker.  I've tried patches and gum but I get very bad headaches before I get adequate symptom relief.  

 

Aniracetam works well as an adjunct, but doesn't do enough on its own.  

 

CFW, what are your dosages of Selegiline?  5mg once or twice a day?  Oral or sublingual or transdermal?

 

I've had the same experiences with all of those things you mentioned.  Guanfacine worked really well for anxiety and concentration, but eventually lead to feeling freezing and being lethargic because blood pressure got so low and then led to some pretty intense depressive spells as well as aggravating restlessness and RLS at night!  Wellbutrin only exacerbated rage and anxiety and restlessness and was horrible pretty much in any combination I took it with.  I like Aniracetam as well, but only as an adjunctive mood boost periodically.  Other nootropics may work periodically as well, but it's never consistent enough and loses efficacy over time.  Modafinil keeps me only just below baseline, and isn't very effective in sustainable treatment, at least for me.  But it is better than nothing.  I take 75mg of Armodafinil daily along with Fish Oil, Ashwagandha, some multis, ALCAR, magnesium.  

 

Still waiting on selegiline to trial at 5 - 10mg for monotherapy for adhd and depressive symptoms.  After I have that going, I'll report back and then possibly consider using some other aminos with it like DLPA to see if I can make it more effective.  Tianeptine is also something that I'd possibly be interested in, as I just read that it has some efficacy for IBS as well as depression and ADHD as it works in opposition of how SSRIs work, by depleting Serotonin.  Really hoping that Selegiline has some efficacy for ADHD and depressive symptoms for me.  If I can get anywhere above 50% better in regard to ADHD symptoms, it's still significant.  

 

MPH and AMPs work well but they come with neurotoxicity, addiction, tolerance, and side effects that are hard to tolerate the longer you stay on them.  When you're treated, ADHD symptoms don't bother you so much, but the side effects do.  When untreated, all I can do is lament and be miserable about how my brain isn't working and I can't function the way "normal" people can.  It all comes back down to a percentage/ quality of life issue for me.  I can go a year without treatment and suffer and try to get by without even past the withdrawal phase, but it's never the same.  If lucky, you go back to baseline levels before you started seeking treatment and that's problematic in itself because there's a reason you sought treatment in the first place.  I can spend a year suffering with my symptoms and trying alternative treatments, but I refuse to spend the next 10-30 years miserable and unable to function well because of misery over ADHD issues.  

 

Tackling ADHD induced lack of motivation is a huge issue for me.  Since this thread started, I actually have come across a few documented reports of effective Selegiline adjuncts with other more standard treatments, despite the contraindications, but doses are kept low and blood pressure is always monitored.  If it worked at lower dosages for each drug, it could be a viable solution and maybe even possibly safer than constantly ramping up dosages for MPH or AMPs in themselves, especially as dopamine/serotonin balances always seem to get out of whack for many people on stimulant treatment, and SSRI's seem to make things worse for many of those cases.  

 

Flowery, hope you're doing well.  Keep us updated periodically.



#43 DrewMichael21

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 02:47 PM

   Sorry, here's the actual thread  https://www.longecit...ons-on-adhd-pi/, So to be clear, I've already had a formal diagnosis, of Tourette syndrome as a kid and Co-morbidity of Anxiety and ADHD unspecified as an adult. Secondly, I've already investigated unto the skizotypal personality and taken their tests, I do not match any of their diagnosis of any type. The closest one was paranoid skizophrenia, but that's largely because of my excess rumination or ability to shut down my thoughts. Fourth of all, while it may be possible, none of those diagnosis account for the wide array of deficits that I have, Only ADHD-PI does that. Fifth of all, the time I made that video I was on medication. Sixth of all, I've been around plenty of mental disordered people as well, I have 3 friends who are biopolar, 2 that have OCD ect. Obviously I'm still investigating in skizotypal with my current clinician with testing ect but most of the tests are negative. If it really was skizotypal I would have fixed the issue by now. I've been searching for an answer for 7 years straight. All of problems stem my inability to get things done, not the reverse. Finally 20% of ADHD-PI people do not respond to any form of stimulant. Back, to the poster, check out the thread, there's good content and tips there.



#44 Dichotohmy

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 05:50 PM

In my case, my motivational deficit is more of a huge block between transforming inner wants and plans into actual goal-directed action; its like there's a wall between initiation and "doing" that no amount of will-power, habit-forming, or often even external pressure and deadlines can break. For me, boredom is like a vital sign and I just can't deal with situations that are understimulating and boring without walking away and seeking stimulation, because boredom is bad for my health. The motivational wall is, in essence, having enough intrinsic stimulation to not get bored and walk away. I have read this described as the "brain fog" that is more unique to ADHD, and quite different than the "brain fog" one might associate with mild cognitive impairment, and I think I agree with that assessment. By no means am I unmotivated. Quite the contrary: I have tons and tons of dreams and ideas, but what I lack in is the oomph and goal-oriented satisfaction to turn those whims into reality.

 

I'm a combined type with a likely slant towards non-anxious hyperactivity and impulsiveness. I have significant dysautonomia and/or hyper-adrenergic POTS, which likely contributes and worsens the latent ADHD. In any case, that can of worms most certainly complicates things and likely makes my experiences atypical. In any case, here are some things that have and have not worked for me in terms of motivation. Ranked in order of effectiveness:

 

1. My absolute favorite is a combo of low-dose opioid and low-dose MPH. For instance, 2.5mg hydrocodone and ~5mg MPH pretty much makes me feel totally normal for a good 5-7 hours. This combo also has repeat potential for a second dose later in the day. Needless to say, this isn't a sustainable strategy and inevitably leads to a significant crash within days or weeks. Too bad, because this is better than any amphetamine for me in terms of efficacy.

 

2. 20mg tianeptine-sodium TID, or 70mg of tianeptine-sulfate with ~5mg MPH is almost as good as the above, but makes me very drained and depleted over the course of weeks or months.

 

3. DL-phenalynine is quite helpful for about 3-4 hours of relief, but cannot be repeated the same day. DLPA and other phenalynine sources build tolerance quickly as well. I've tried experimenting with PA supplements in conjunction with low dose selegiline, but with little success.

 

4. Ibuprofen. I get a ton of relief from 400-600mg ibuprofen. Ibuprofen definitely leads to diminishing returns and probably makes things worse in the medium-long term.

 

5. Smokeless tobacco (snus). The snus greatly improves focus and helps a lot with sensory-gating problems for me. The effect on motivation is less, but also notable. Also notable is that smoked tobacco just doesn't work nearly as well for me.

 

6. Low-dose MPH (5-mg BID), low-dose D-amphetamine (2.5mg), or low dose concerta (18mg) monotherapy. Unfortunately, this has poor efficacy if I am not well rested prior to taking it. I frequently experience poor-quality sleep due to the whole dysautonomia thing, so I don't use this very often.

 

7. Low-dose racemic selegiline (1.5mg sublingual). This mixes well with MPH for me, and contrary to intuition, does not seem to make the peripheral side-effects of psychostimulants any worse. The effects are definitely cumulative and build over time. If I go above 1.5mg sublingual/day, I will sometimes get tachycardia and hypertension from eating tyramine-type foods.

 

8. Low-dose buproprion. I was able to tolerate about 75mg/day, because exceeding that would have terrible hyper-adrenergic side-effects for me. 75mg/day made a subtle, if not-poorly perceivable difference at best.

 

9. Alpha-blockers. Clonidine and guanfacine are paradoxical for me in that they are weakly stimulating at any dose. When also combined with propranolol, I have found the alpha and beta combination helpful for relieving hyper-adrenergic side effects from stimulant treatments. On their own, the stimulation from alpha blockers is barely perceptible during the day, but more than enough to make my sleep much lighter and less refreshing. 

 

10. Cannabis sativa can often make me hyperfocus like mad, but tends to make me hyperfocus on foolish, non-useful things. In the medium-long term, cannabis makes my motivation much, much worse and induces an SSRI/SNRI-like apathy and fog that is enveloping. I bring this up because for some people, cannabis is anecdotally helpful for ADHD and motivation.

 

11. SSRI/SNRIs - make me content to ride the couch all day and play on the internet at least. Overall, if there's any plus to these, I guess it would be that I become too apathetic to care that I am totally unmotivated and unproductive.

 

All of these can be assumed to be in conjunction with a modest amount of caffeine and whichever other compounds come from the source. Each day I have at least 2 out of 3 from high-quality coffee, green and black tea, or energy drinks. I have gone through months-long periods of caffeine-elimination and have a high-degree of confidence that I simply do better with a modest amount of caffeine.

 

For me, habit forming is also pretty important. By that I mean that simply getting into a routine isn't enough to get over the motivational "wall," in and of itself, but making a habit of doing productive things is an essential lifestyle hack in order to get better relief from medication. Having a routine and habits makes it much less likely that I will use drug-induced focus and motivation for unhelpful purposes like video games, the internet, or other time wasters.

 

Unfortunate for me is that opioids have become incredibly hard to get legitimately prescribed. Tianeptine is also much harder to find in affordable bulk quantity these days. Endorphin support is essential for my particular case, which sucks because the support is so stigmatized and tolerance forming.

 

  Back, to the poster, check out the thread, there's good content and tips there.

 

I have tried and tried, but your posts are virtually unreadable for me. Please take the advise presented earlier and start using paragraph breaks. Preferably, also try to avoid run-on sentences and raw stream-of-consciousness presentation of ideas.


Edited by Dichotohmy, 31 October 2018 - 06:23 PM.


#45 gamesguru

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Posted 31 October 2018 - 11:35 PM

   Sorry, here's the actual thread  https://www.longecit...ons-on-adhd-pi/, So to be clear, I've already had a formal diagnosis, of Tourette syndrome as a kid and Co-morbidity of Anxiety and ADHD unspecified as an adult. Secondly, I've already investigated unto the skizotypal personality and taken their tests, I do not match any of their diagnosis of any type. The closest one was paranoid skizophrenia, but that's largely because of my excess rumination or ability to shut down my thoughts. Fourth of all, while it may be possible, none of those diagnosis account for the wide array of deficits that I have, Only ADHD-PI does that. Fifth of all, the time I made that video I was on medication. Sixth of all, I've been around plenty of mental disordered people as well, I have 3 friends who are biopolar, 2 that have OCD ect. Obviously I'm still investigating in skizotypal with my current clinician with testing ect but most of the tests are negative. If it really was skizotypal I would have fixed the issue by now. I've been searching for an answer for 7 years straight. All of problems stem my inability to get things done, not the reverse. Finally 20% of ADHD-PI people do not respond to any form of stimulant. Back, to the poster, check out the thread, there's good content and tips there.

 

Just because you walk into a shrink's office and you think you've put off an honest impression of yourself that is representative of the whole, doesn't guarantee an accurate diagnosis.

Say he marks you down as ADHD and depression, or ADHD and anxiety.  You go home and ruminate on it, oh how could it be, well he's a professional probably it's true, well what about this, and it's so that, and I just can't believe it but it feels so true.  Exactly, because he probably missed some of the story.  Or you left it out without knowing.

 

Schizotypal disorder can explain:

 

1. Negative rumination

2. Anxiety

3. Attention deficits

4. Unconventional, distracted thinking

5. Why you've been searching for an answer for 7 years

 

 

It's almost funny how contradictory your attitude is:
 

you: "Oh, it's not a real chemical imbalance you people are so silly"

us: "Why go into paragraphs, and paragraphs about a non-issue then. That seems silly."

you: "Well you see, it's just I really think..."


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#46 floweryriddle

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 12:05 AM

 

 

I've had the same experiences with all of those things you mentioned.  Guanfacine worked really well for anxiety and concentration, but eventually lead to feeling freezing and being lethargic because blood pressure got so low and then led to some pretty intense depressive spells as well as aggravating restlessness and RLS at night!  Wellbutrin only exacerbated rage and anxiety and restlessness and was horrible pretty much in any combination I took it with.  I like Aniracetam as well, but only as an adjunctive mood boost periodically.  Other nootropics may work periodically as well, but it's never consistent enough and loses efficacy over time.  Modafinil keeps me only just below baseline, and isn't very effective in sustainable treatment, at least for me.  But it is better than nothing.  I take 75mg of Armodafinil daily along with Fish Oil, Ashwagandha, some multis, ALCAR, magnesium.  

Guanfacine is still one of the things I'd love to try. Did you get it through a prescription or online vendor? 

I have some Clonidine here but only in instant release form and the one time I tried it, it dried out my mouth over night so much that my gums inflamed and I woke with massive pain that lasted for a week. 

That, and the dangers of stopping Clonidine made me stop it for now and wait until I can give Guanfacine a try which might be a while because it's still only prescribable to children in Japan. Off-label prescription isn't really a thing here. 

 

 

In my case, my motivational deficit is more of a huge block between transforming inner wants and plans into actual goal-directed action; its like there's a wall between initiation and "doing" that no amount of will-power, habit-forming, or often even external pressure and deadlines can break. For me, boredom is like a vital sign and I just can't deal with situations that are understimulating and boring without walking away and seeking stimulation, because boredom is bad for my health. The motivational wall is, in essence, having enough intrinsic stimulation to not get bored and walk away. I have read this described as the "brain fog" that is more unique to ADHD, and quite different than the "brain fog" one might associate with mild cognitive impairment, and I think I agree with that assessment. By no means am I unmotivated. Quite the contrary: I have tons and tons of dreams and ideas, but what I lack in is the oomph and goal-oriented satisfaction to turn those whims into reality.

 

Oh man, this fits me perfectly, almost like that got pulled right out of my head. Thanks for chiming in!

Also interesting that you have Tianeptine on 2, that matches my experience.

 

For me, everything that has an external influence (from the way I understood it) is ok. Like, if I have a class somewhere, I will go because I paid for it and made the appointment. It also doesn't require any work or thinking from my side, because I know what to do: Go up and get there, then maybe do my homework. 

Then things I already know are also not a problem. I do software engineering and if I think about creating something new, it also requires less additional thinking from my side because again I know the big parts already: Start my PC, open an editor and program. 

The wall plays a significant roll for everything else. For things that either don't have a fire under my ass, or things that require a lot of additional effort. Like I mentioned in a previous post: Dancing for example. If I go to dance classes it's very easy and no problem. But practicing on my own, or trying to learn a choreography on my own from a video is giving me the wall in my head. I can plan it: "this weekend I'll grab my sports clothes and practice for an hour" and find some videos, bookmark them and what not and get very excited about it, but I won't do it. 

Some things are almost impossible to start, some things are just difficult in the typical ADHD fashion (like doing homework, planning x)

It's like a disconnect between going from the planning phase to the doing phase. 

 

This affects so many things of my life. Dreams, ambitions, hobbies - I actually feel like I am wasting my time for nothing. I start having regrets for not doing the same things again and again for years and years and it gets to me. I see people being able to do these kind of things without issues and I get jealous. It also knocks me into depression. 

Scheduling things in my calendar helps sometimes. Having someone else doing the thing with me adds an external influence and makes it a lot easier.

Medication as well. 

 

 

I am still on Selegiline + MPH + Atomoxotine + Tianeptine

 

Selegiline 5mg seems to help with general doing and focus but I'm not on a verdict with it yet. Subjectively it's similar in effects as MPH, but without the stimulant feeling. (maybe?)

MPH - I re-introduced a low dosage and went slowly up while on Selegiline. At first it felt number and less effect like I wrote in my previous post, but as time passed I have to lower my dosage again. 36mg of Concerta was fine a couple days ago, but now feels pretty strong so I'm dialing it back. That was kind-of expected with MAO-B inhibition and a turnover of ~2 weeks. MPH is my goto stimulant medication for focus, attentiveness, doing, etc etc. 

Atomoxotine - I am on 25mg currently. Atomoxetine levels me emotionally and does wonders for my impulsiveness. On it, ADHD impulses like rushing to buy the latest shiny toy that I saw somewhere are easier to shake-off. Without it, it can take up to weeks for impulses to disappear. It's also making me more listening to reason vs emotion. One of my absolute favorites for ADHD if you look by initial side effects. (I take it before sleeping so that when I wake up most of the side effects wore off) 

Tianeptine - I love Tianeptine. 12.5mg x3 Sodium is my current dosage and it works very well in making me more happy and enjoying things. I am more positive and that directly reflects on motivation. It feels easier to start things that were previously difficult to tackle. 

 

Supplements I'm on: Omega-3, NMN, Allicin, Magnesium, Zinc, Multivit, Sulforophane - none of them picked for ADHD nor motivation

 

For the actual motivation wall, I think Selegiline and Tianeptine Sodium helped the most out of all things I tried so far. Maybe Tianeptine being the top runner and I really wish I could get a prescription for it. It got added to the no-import list in Japan recently, and a lot of local vendors and internet pharmacies stopped selling it. Price also tends to get more higher. I'm thinking of trying to order a few grams of powder, then making a solution that I can carry around for re-dosing during the day that will last me a few months. 



#47 cat-nips

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 01:46 AM

Thanks for your experience. Your description and the one you quoted, resonate with so much familiarity for me as well.

Tianeptine also comes in a sulphate form that needs less dosing but I believe is more expensive. Your solution idea sounds promising.

You’re really not missing much on Guanfacine. It’s a weird one. You’re sedated for about 2 days but then that effects starts wearing off. The dose has to be taken very consistently for at least a week before you can ascertain anything. It worked for about a month for me and I thought it was great but once I stopped for a few days and tried to resume, everything changed. I was never able to get back. In the winter, I would get so cold that I couldn’t bear to wake up and move because of it’s effects on heart rate and blood pressure. It leaves a slightly negative aftertaste for me, but fairly neutral.

Appreciate all the insight in this thread. Cheers.

#48 CWF1986

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:18 AM

drugs that work on the 5HT side lower dopamine and vice versa. hard to have best of both words if you are like me with both emotional problems (high neuroticism, anxiety, depression, etc) and ADHD.

 

now I'm thinking about a rotation cycle where I use stimulants on workdays and pro-5HT on weekends.

 

BTW, bad sleep, bad diet, and chaos/stress ruin my emotions, so a lot of emotion improvement can be achieved by healthy lifestyle, but only if ADHD doesn't interfere with it.

 

SSRIs and 5HT1 agonists aren't the only antidepressant class that treats anxiety and depression....

 

I know there's stuff like Rameron and some others.  What I personally know and love is the 2nd gen tricyclic nortriptyline.  

 

I've tried both lexapro and nortriptyline and I like that 'dirty' tricyclic way more.  The sides are more manageable and it does it's job better so to speak.  That is, it does a better job of treating depression and anxiety.  It also helps a little with the cognitive deficits of adhd.  I reckon it's because of it's strong selectivity for NRI.  Of course YMMV.  

 

Before strattera, it was very common for docs to prescribe imipramine, desipramine, or nortriptyline when stims either didn't work or were intolerable.  A lot of younger docs are very uncomfortable with tricyclics because they've kind of been labeled as sort of a boogey man which is knd of a shame but arguably the second gen tricyclics nortriptyline and desipramine don't have any worse sides or toxicity than the older SSRIs.  The one thing I worry about is the link between anticholinergics and Alzheimer's. But that's something that hasn't been thoroughly explored so it may be worse or better than it currently seems...



#49 CWF1986

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 03:43 AM

CFW, what are your dosages of Selegiline?  5mg once or twice a day?  Oral or sublingual or transdermal?

 

I've had the same experiences with all of those things you mentioned.  Guanfacine worked really well for anxiety and concentration, but eventually lead to feeling freezing and being lethargic because blood pressure got so low and then led to some pretty intense depressive spells as well as aggravating restlessness and RLS at night!  Wellbutrin only exacerbated rage and anxiety and restlessness and was horrible pretty much in any combination I took it with.  I like Aniracetam as well, but only as an adjunctive mood boost periodically.  Other nootropics may work periodically as well, but it's never consistent enough and loses efficacy over time.  Modafinil keeps me only just below baseline, and isn't very effective in sustainable treatment, at least for me.  But it is better than nothing.  I take 75mg of Armodafinil daily along with Fish Oil, Ashwagandha, some multis, ALCAR, magnesium.  

 

Still waiting on selegiline to trial at 5 - 10mg for monotherapy for adhd and depressive symptoms.  After I have that going, I'll report back and then possibly consider using some other aminos with it like DLPA to see if I can make it more effective.  Tianeptine is also something that I'd possibly be interested in, as I just read that it has some efficacy for IBS as well as depression and ADHD as it works in opposition of how SSRIs work, by depleting Serotonin.  Really hoping that Selegiline has some efficacy for ADHD and depressive symptoms for me.  If I can get anywhere above 50% better in regard to ADHD symptoms, it's still significant.  

 

MPH and AMPs work well but they come with neurotoxicity, addiction, tolerance, and side effects that are hard to tolerate the longer you stay on them.  When you're treated, ADHD symptoms don't bother you so much, but the side effects do.  When untreated, all I can do is lament and be miserable about how my brain isn't working and I can't function the way "normal" people can.  It all comes back down to a percentage/ quality of life issue for me.  I can go a year without treatment and suffer and try to get by without even past the withdrawal phase, but it's never the same.  If lucky, you go back to baseline levels before you started seeking treatment and that's problematic in itself because there's a reason you sought treatment in the first place.  I can spend a year suffering with my symptoms and trying alternative treatments, but I refuse to spend the next 10-30 years miserable and unable to function well because of misery over ADHD issues.  

 

Tackling ADHD induced lack of motivation is a huge issue for me.  Since this thread started, I actually have come across a few documented reports of effective Selegiline adjuncts with other more standard treatments, despite the contraindications, but doses are kept low and blood pressure is always monitored.  If it worked at lower dosages for each drug, it could be a viable solution and maybe even possibly safer than constantly ramping up dosages for MPH or AMPs in themselves, especially as dopamine/serotonin balances always seem to get out of whack for many people on stimulant treatment, and SSRI's seem to make things worse for many of those cases.  

 

Flowery, hope you're doing well.  Keep us updated periodically.

 

I personally can take my full dose of 20mg XR adderall with the selegeline without notable behavioral, pulse, or blood pressure issues.  I've said it before and I'll say it again just to make sure no one does anything reckless.  I titrated back up to the full dose I was taking.  I started with 2.5IR.  There were not any negative or beneficial effects at that dose.  Then 5mg.  Same story.  So I went ahead and did the 20mg XR making sure that I kept my left over clonidine and propranolol available to myself at all times.  The selegiline has no effect on my pulse or blood pressure.  

 

BTW,  I don't take the adderall nearly everyday since the selegiline kicked in.  On work days I know will be slower and off days, I no longer have to take the adderall to get things done and pull my thoughts together.  Also, I don't have to take the 5mg IR I'm prescribed to help ease the crash.  The selegiline does a better job of that for me.  

 

The selegeline I take is the Indian generic selgin.  I ordered it from All Day Chemist.  The package came from Singapore.  I think it was something between 5-10 USD.  The shipping was around 15 USD.  I got 30 5mg pills but you can order more at time if you want.  It comes in blister packs.  It's oral.  I take 5mg daily first thing in the morning with fish oil because selegiline is fat soluble.  It took about 2 weeks for the full effects to kick in.  

 

BTW, love the profile pic!  I'm little bit of gym rat myself.  High intensity weighlifting like power exercises such as power cleans, power snatches, and power work with more conventional exercises moving moderate loads at relatively high speed and just lifting heavy like in the 85-95% range help the restlessness aspect of my adhd better than any pill or CBT technique. I've found that if too much of my lifting is traditional BB methods I don't get as much benefit for restlessness.  Cardio whether it's steady state or HIIT doesn't do it either.  But any kind of cardio and traditional BB methods do help with non adhd anxiety.  So it's not at all useless for me!



#50 gamesguru

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Posted 01 November 2018 - 01:38 PM

rather than Tianeptine I would see something else here stacking better with selegiline?  That is more something for you, the average ADHD subject may lack depressive traits



#51 CWF1986

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 12:01 AM

rather than Tianeptine I would see something else here stacking better with selegiline?  That is more something for you, the average ADHD subject may lack depressive traits

 

I know this isn't directed at me, but my curiosity has the best of me.  Did you have something particular in mind and what might that be?



#52 floweryriddle

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 07:40 AM

rather than Tianeptine I would see something else here stacking better with selegiline?  That is more something for you, the average ADHD subject may lack depressive traits

 

From what I gathered it's more the opposite: ADHD and depression usually go hand in hand. A quick google gives a lot of claims such as 

 

 

 

Studies find that 80 percent of people with ADHD will have at least one other psychiatric disorder in their lifetime. The two most common are depression and an anxiety disorder, like obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD) or generalized anxiety disorder (GAD).

(https://www.additude...ted-conditions/)

 

 

 

Children diagnosed with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) at ages 4 to 6 are more likely to suffer from depression as adolescents than those who did not have ADHD at that age, according to a long-term study published in the October issue of the Archives of General Psychiatry.

(https://www.uchicago...-as-adolescents)

 

 

Adults with ADHD are likely to have an anxiety disorder, depression, bipolar disorder, or other comorbid psychiatric disorder. (The term “comorbid” refers to a condition that exists with another.)

(https://adaa.org/und...ions/adult-adhd)

 

 

 

But I'd also be curious what you'd suggest stacking with Selegiline especially since I might soon not be able to get to more Tianeptine for a while (depending if my shipment makes it through customs or not) 


Edited by floweryriddle, 03 November 2018 - 07:44 AM.


#53 gamesguru

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 02:49 PM

That's true 80% of ADHD patients have "something else", but it is generally oppositional defiant, or conduct disorder (the anti-authoritarian disorders).  I fail to see how this implies that over 50% have depression?  My sources suggest less than one third as co-morbid with depression.  Therefore the average ADHD patient is not depressed, as is consistent with my experiences and assessments of classmates and peers.

 

b-comobities-associated-disorders.jpg

 

 

Rather than tianeptine I would see something that targets the remaining symptoms (as we have agreed provisionally to the fact that selegiline addresses only a subset of motivational symptoms, though it is nearly as promising as amphetamine and quite significantly less toxic and less habit-forming).

 

In the case of ADHD-PI, the inattentive symptoms are predominant, and we may reasonable stop at selegiline if we are so satisfied.  Given how deeply things are buried, we might not know, we might try to fix one thing and break three others.  Maybe things to regulate glutamate, that would be sort of easy?  The combined phenotype (ADHD-C) exhibits unusual excitation of the bilateral medial occipital lobe, which is consistent with elevated glutamate levels.

 

 

Children with ADHD-C and ADHD-PI activated overlapping regions of right inferior frontal gyrus, right superior temporal lobe, and left inferior parietal lobe during inhibitory control. However, the magnitude of the activation in the temporal and parietal regions, as well as in the bilateral middle frontal gyrus, was greater in children with ADHD-PI than those with ADHD-C. Conversely, children with ADHD-C activated bilateral medial occipital lobe to a greater extent than children with ADHD-PI

 



#54 cat-nips

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 03:57 PM

The thing about ADHD treatment or stimulants rather, is that they deplete NT levels over time. Even if you werent depressed when you started treatment, the 3pm depressive crash that happens is a rather common phenomenon with ADHD treatment. Usually SSRIs are prescribed but for a lot of people this confounds, blunts or alters the efficacy of the stimulant to negligible levels. Perhaps not originally there, but as a result of side effect you have to be prepared to deal with as a result of stimulant treatment. It can be hard to get symptoms of ADHD and depression to manageable levels with standard modalities.

The way that Tianeptine works is opposite to SSRIs and does so by depleting serotonin which is interesting as it says to me that implies that it could be synergistic or better than SSRI in dealing with any depressive symptoms that may arise as a result of stimulant treatment or possibly be synergistic at least compared to what is usually done. SSRI usually tends to worsen ADHD symptoms in many.

Tia isn’t common in the US. I don’t know if it will work effectively as an adjunct but the small amount of research I’ve done tells me that it could be a different and possibly effective treatment as long as safety measures were taken. I’m not entirely sure in that though. I believe I did see one study stating that Tia had shown some efficacy in treating ADHD symptoms in its own.

I’m sure anything that helps depressive symptoms without affecting ADHD treatment would be welcome and much sought after amongst those afflicted and trying to cope with dealing with something without making something else worse.

Edited by cat-nips, 03 November 2018 - 03:58 PM.


#55 gamesguru

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 05:18 PM

I’m sure anything that helps depressive symptoms without affecting ADHD treatment would be welcome and much sought after amongst those afflicted and trying to cope with dealing with something without making something else worse.

 

It remains to see whether tianeptine can be used without making something else worse.  You may take it for a few days and think wow this is so incredible I can't wait to spread the light, but with prolonged use worrisome case reports have poured in of individuals backing out of treatment because of latently incurred effects.  Combine that with the fact that most ADHD patients aren't depressed and we gather that, in a generally prescribable ADHD stack, tianeptine would seem superfluous and out of place.

 

It would also need more convincing to demonstrate the supposition that ADHD treatments deplete norepinephrine, that this depletion is clinically significant, that it is incurred by selegiline mono-therapy, and that it is practicably reversed by tianeptine.


Edited by gamesguru, 03 November 2018 - 05:20 PM.


#56 Finn

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 06:54 PM

Have you tried pemoline, ( ベタナミン , Betanamin is the Japanese brand, Cylert was the American brand).  

 

It is still available in Japan I believe.

 

It is not available in USA or EU anymore, but there seems to be plenty of American ADHDs and narcoleptics who had very positive experience with it and are still missing it. 


Edited by Finn, 03 November 2018 - 07:07 PM.


#57 cat-nips

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 09:08 PM

I was referring more to the standard treatments like amps and mph when talking about imbalances or depletions. Selegiline is not a common adhd treatment although there have been a few documented studies done with mixed results. Most ADHDers don’t find it enough as monotherapy and use it as an adjunct for either depressive symptoms or to keep their other stim doses lower to prevent tolerance. I suppose that is what I will soon find out as I’ll be trying it as mono therapy. I hope it’s enough and effective enough in itself but I doubt it when compared to MPH or AMP. I hope it is, however.

Tia isn’t in the US but there is some research there showing efficacy in a different mechanism from SSRI. I know there are some addiction issues with Tia and some danger in ramping up doses and withdrawal. But the level of safety vs efficacy still seems fairly high if dosages are kept to standard levels.

Pemiline was withdrawn from the market for liver toxicity issues. I really don’t know anything about and without any further background, I’m scared away by the warning labels.


It remains to see whether tianeptine can be used without making something else worse. You may take it for a few days and think wow this is so incredible I can't wait to spread the light, but with prolonged use worrisome case reports have poured in of individuals backing out of treatment because of latently incurred effects. Combine that with the fact that most ADHD patients aren't depressed and we gather that, in a generally prescribable ADHD stack, tianeptine would seem superfluous and out of place.

It would also need more convincing to demonstrate the supposition that ADHD treatments deplete norepinephrine, that this depletion is clinically significant, that it is incurred by selegiline mono-therapy, and that it is practicably reversed by tianeptine.



#58 gamesguru

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 09:32 PM

I was referring more to the standard treatments like amps and mph when talking about imbalances or depletions. Selegiline is not a common adhd treatment although there have been a few documented studies done with mixed results. Most ADHDers don’t find it enough as monotherapy and use it as an adjunct for either depressive symptoms or to keep their other stim doses lower to prevent tolerance. I suppose that is what I will soon find out as I’ll be trying it as mono therapy. I hope it’s enough and effective enough in itself but I doubt it when compared to MPH or AMP. I hope it is, however.

Tia isn’t in the US but there is some research there showing efficacy in a different mechanism from SSRI. I know there are some addiction issues with Tia and some danger in ramping up doses and withdrawal. But the level of safety vs efficacy still seems fairly high if dosages are kept to standard levels.

 

The problem here with tianeptine is that many ADHD'ers have poor self-control and poor sensibilities about themselves.  They are often compulsive drug or video game addicts, they miss doctor's and school appointments, and they get down on themselves too easily.  They are a likely group to suffer from the miseffects of tianeptine.  I read and it came to my surprise that selegiline already has a serotonergic component[1] in treating ADHD, so we may not achieve as much synergy here with tianeptine as expected.

 

As for selegiline not being enough on its own, I have no experience of my own and can only say your testimony seems reasonable.  If you are comparing it to adderall, you may be slightly disappointed.

 

If it is not enough, I imagine it stacking safely with ginseng or other mild attenuators, and that this would soon "be enough".  It exhibits a very minimal and unobtrusive profile of side effects.  One day it may be approved as a primary treatment for ADHD, and displace much of the current bandwidth (adderall, ritalin, vyvanse, etc).

 

(attached PDF)

 

Conclusion: Selegiline is as effective as methylphenidate in the treatment of adults  with  Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity  Disorder.  Selegiline  can  be  an alternative medication for the treatment of adult ADHD If its clinical efficacy is proven by other larger studies .

 

 

It might work for hyperactivity too, just not impulsivity.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/16958566

 

Results indicate that selegiline may target specific symptoms of ADHD including: sustained attention, the learning of novel information, hyperactivity, and peer interactions. Because the drug was not associated with negative side effects and did not specifically reduce symptoms of impulsivity, selegiline may be a preferred treatment for individuals who present with the primarily inattentive subtype of ADHD

Attached Files



#59 floweryriddle

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 04:17 AM

Have you tried pemoline, ( ベタナミン , Betanamin is the Japanese brand, Cylert was the American brand).  

 

It is still available in Japan I believe.

 

It is not available in USA or EU anymore, but there seems to be plenty of American ADHDs and narcoleptics who had very positive experience with it and are still missing it. 

 

I read about Pemoline previously but the liver toxicity and liver failure reports make me stay far away from it. 

 

 

The problem here with tianeptine is that many ADHD'ers have poor self-control and poor sensibilities about themselves.  They are often compulsive drug or video game addicts, they miss doctor's and school appointments, and they get down on themselves too easily.  They are a likely group to suffer from the miseffects of tianeptine.  I read and it came to my surprise that selegiline already has a serotonergic component[1]in treating ADHD, so we may not achieve as much synergy here with tianeptine as expected. 

 

In that study they were using 20mg / 60mg a day. At these dosages Selegiline is no longer MAO-B selective and is pretty much a normal MAOI, so affects dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, etc. That normal MAOIs are effective for ADHD isn't something new, just the general stigma and fear of interactions puts them more in the background in favor of other medication. 

 

My personal take-away from Selegiline is that, yes, it absolutely helps. Not enough for me yet and I still feel like I have to take MPH + Atomoxetine, but in lower dosages. I also love that it's so cheap and easy to get, well at least in other countries. Japan has this really dumb obsession with smart drugs and bans everything from antidepressants like Tianeptine, Racetams, choline supplements (alpha-gpc, CDP-choline) and yes, it looks like Selegiline is also already on the no-import list. (Did a bit more reading up and Selegiline even falls under the stimulant class here... That's gonna be fun importing more.)

 

I think the dangers of Tianeptine are a bit blown out of proportions. Of course you have idiots on /r/Tianeptine trying to get high from it and end up having a very bad time, but under normal usage it should be fine. Drug addicts have likely access to other recreational stuff, so I don't really get the need to abuse a antidepressant you might rely on. 

 

 

I'm not sure why, maybe it's because the Selegiline is still ramping up, or maybe the constant Tianeptine usage also built with time, but I'm just in a good place. I feel very motivated, my mood is stable, I'm happy - I really have nothing to complain about. The "adhd-wall" is still there, but it feels like things are getting better for me since I started this experiment. 

These last few days I don't even feel like I need to stay with 3x 12.5mg Tianeptine a day and sometimes only take one in the morning with not so much change in mood. I still carry it around though for acute help. 

 

It could be just a phase, definitely possible, but I hope not and celebrate my little victory. I might take a look at ginseng though. 

 

 

I'd be very curious to hear if anyone here has a similar experience with Selegiline+Tianeptine+Atomoxetine+Methylphenidate (or parts of this stack). N=1 isn't really that helpful. 



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#60 cat-nips

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Posted 04 November 2018 - 03:42 PM

Congrats flowery and best of luck with your continued success!

Games, thanks for the selegiline info. I’m hopeful. I saw a few studies on pubmed saying that it wasn’t helpful for ADHD in adults or inconclusive and some saying that it was. Data seems to be mixed and In thinking more research is needed for that.

Is there any research into Ginseng for ADHD? Types and dosages? I know that there are a few different types of Ginseng and different preparations but I’m unaware of the methods.

I’ll be reporting back next week with my selegiline experience to replace Modafinil. I’ll start at 5mg oral and perhaps a second 5mg or 2.5mg dose in the afternoons. Really have no intention of going above 10mg.

Thanks for all the info and insights!





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