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Tackling ADHD induced(?) lack of motivation

adhd methylphenidate

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#151 mono

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:18 PM

ASMR actually stands for autonomous sensory meridian response as it is a blissful tingly sensation throughout the body that one gets from whispering, combing of the hair etc. That is why the videos feature those kind of things, in order to trigger the response. Unfortunately I never was able to trigger my ASMR from the videos otherwise I would probably watch them because the feeling of ASMR is comparable to having an orgasm, it is so nice, but there is truly nothing sexual about it and it is just in a much more relaxing kind of way. 



#152 CWF1986

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 05:26 PM

^

 

The studies I've seen seem to suggest that most people don't actually experience it and researchers have noted unusual brain activity in the default mode network of those who do experience it.  

 

I thought it seemed especially relevant to the brain health section of the longecity because those that experience it typically score high in both openness to experience and neurtoticism in the Big 5 personality test.  

 

It's still something very understudied and even the term ASMR isn't a scientific term.  But it's something I'll be closely following to see how it develops over the years.  


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#153 cat-nips

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Posted 13 February 2019 - 07:28 PM

Hi guys!

Just looked at this and have always wondered why I would have an extreme nearly sensual response at times to someone whispering in my ear. Lol.

CFW: good to hear you’re doing well. Thanks for the DLPA combo. Going to try this soon with Dex at 375 like you said. I tried DLPA + Selegiine pretty much daily when I was experimenting with Selegiline and looking back I don’t think I’ve ever felt more “high” and disassociated and weird. But sometimes I would notice the mood enhancement effects of just DLPA if I took it alone.

I may even stack it with an artichoke extract and fish oil. The LPA and artichoke are key parts to the CILTEP stack, but I wouldn’t take CILTEP every day because the ALCAR eventually makes my hypothyroid issues worse. But I would imagine that it synergizes quite nicely.

I think the wall spoken off or even the zombie effect is a methylphenidate symptom. It’s common to hear in conjunction with Ritalin products and perhaps it’s due to the stricter reuptake mechanism rather than both the reputable and releasing mechanism of amphetamines. The tia and selegeline may be correcting that and if doses are kept stable at 12.5, TID then hopefully should be ok??

Amps have different common sides such as mood swings, sleep disturbances, crashes, being affected by urinary and internal ph and a hefty amount of creative hyper focus usually on all the wrong things, sometimes leading to increased distraction.

Playing with some natural supplements like iodine, turmeric and artichoke. I’ll have more to say on those later. Phenylpiracetam and pramiracetam still continue to be useful in short term situations. Eventually I’ll get around to trying Faso as it’s been in clinical trials for adhd.

Hope all is well!

^

The studies I've seen seem to suggest that most people don't actually experience it and researchers have noted unusual brain activity in the default mode network of those who do experience it.

I thought it seemed especially relevant to the brain health section of the longecity because those that experience it typically score high in both openness to experience and neurtoticism in the Big 5 personality test.

It's still something very understudied and even the term ASMR isn't a scientific term. But it's something I'll be closely following to see how it develops over the years.



#154 CWF1986

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 02:01 AM

Hi guys!

Just looked at this and have always wondered why I would have an extreme nearly sensual response at times to someone whispering in my ear. Lol.
 

 

I've always become super relaxed and sometimes get the shivers/tingles while getting a haircut or during a lot of the stuff they do when you're at the doctor's office.  

 

It's a separate phenomenon from what's called 'frisson' which is the tingles from music or from being in a state of awe of something.  Frisson is associated with increased heart rate whereas asmr is associated with decreased heart rate.  



#155 floweryriddle

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 02:15 AM

I'm doing a ton better now.

 

All I've got to add is that I'm having a lot of luck DLPA.  Apparently, I just needed to take it regularly.  I do 375mg daily as soon as I wake up.  It seems to help with mood and energy and levels out the adderall some makes the therapeutic effects of the adderall consistent day to day as opposed to working well some days and not others.  

 

So that just leaves me taking:

Meds-

Adderall

Nortriptline

Supps-

DLPA

ZMA

 

Anyone else heard of ASMR?  I've been finding it really helpful when I feel scatterbrained or overwhelmed.  It's also real helpful when I start experiencing a lot of rumination or worry.  I listen/watch a vid and then I put my thoughts together and feel ready to do what I need again.  

 

In the discussions section of this paper, it compares ASMR to music therapy and mindfulness therapy and it helps as much as the music therapy and more than mindfulness therapy using heart rate reduction as the measure.  

 

Really glad to hear you're doing ok and thanks for chiming in again!! 

 

ASMR I tried a few times but it just makes me really uncomfortable so I guess it's just not for me. What helped me a lot when working though is https://www.brain.fm. They give you a free trial but you can just sign up with a new email to get another one. I don't have a problem with work related tasks thanks to Methylphenidate, but brain.fm still helped a lot when I needed to get 'into the zone'. 

 

For supplements / meds, I am also currently trialing DLPA (with Selegiline) but don't notice much at all, like I couldn't tell you if I took it or not. Just recently started though so I want to give it a few weeks testrun. 

Going to swap Selegiline with Rasagiline for a bit, and still on Tianeptine as my goto antidepressant. 

 

Not much progress in terms of self-motivation sadly. Still wasting hours doing nothing. 

 

Next on my experimentation is list is finally a proper MAOi like Parnate or Nardil instead of all the other things I take right now, just can't find a doctor willing to prescribe it. 



#156 DrewMichael21

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 05:50 AM

Hi guys!

Just looked at this and have always wondered why I would have an extreme nearly sensual response at times to someone whispering in my ear. Lol.

CFW: good to hear you’re doing well. Thanks for the DLPA combo. Going to try this soon with Dex at 375 like you said. I tried DLPA + Selegiine pretty much daily when I was experimenting with Selegiline and looking back I don’t think I’ve ever felt more “high” and disassociated and weird. But sometimes I would notice the mood enhancement effects of just DLPA if I took it alone.

I may even stack it with an artichoke extract and fish oil. The LPA and artichoke are key parts to the CILTEP stack, but I wouldn’t take CILTEP every day because the ALCAR eventually makes my hypothyroid issues worse. But I would imagine that it synergizes quite nicely.

I think the wall spoken off or even the zombie effect is a methylphenidate symptom. It’s common to hear in conjunction with Ritalin products and perhaps it’s due to the stricter reuptake mechanism rather than both the reputable and releasing mechanism of amphetamines. The tia and selegeline may be correcting that and if doses are kept stable at 12.5, TID then hopefully should be ok??

Amps have different common sides such as mood swings, sleep disturbances, crashes, being affected by urinary and internal ph and a hefty amount of creative hyper focus usually on all the wrong things, sometimes leading to increased distraction.

Playing with some natural supplements like iodine, turmeric and artichoke. I’ll have more to say on those later. Phenylpiracetam and pramiracetam still continue to be useful in short term situations. Eventually I’ll get around to trying Faso as it’s been in clinical trials for adhd.

Hope all is well!
 

     Greetings Cat-Nips, I believe I've solved the issue, with concerta you need to make sure your taking the lowest possible therapuetic dose for maximum benefit also called the sweet spot. Next, I've found that on the first couple days, I don't have horrible anxiety but a mild dry and suppressed  feeling which is significantly more manageable than that horrible zombie feeling which didn't overcome me as much. I was probably taking to high of a dose frankly. Next, make sure that you don't take it more than two consecutive days. I've found that after two days you lose the therapuetic effect and the anger and depression eventually starts to set it. So you want to avoid this by not taking it everyday. A good balance I've found is 3-4 3-4, yet it's not quite enough but it's better than nothing I suppose. I will be happy once I can actually hold down a job.  To finish, you can also supplement with guanfacine to decrease the anxiety but it also lowers you blood pressure apparently which wouldn't be very useful. I would just accept that you don't get to have it both ways unfortunately. You just gotta live with it until a new revolutionary medication comes out. This is probably the closest I've gotten to fixing the zombie problem.



#157 floweryriddle

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Posted 24 February 2019 - 10:52 PM

Hey guys!

I made a bit of progress and wanted to share what’s been going on.

First of all Strattera - I was back and forth between taking it and not taking it but besides making me more organized, it really shifted me more towards planning instead of doing. What eventually made the decision for me even though I wanted to continue taking it was that it constantly gave me a walking heart rate of 90-100. When doing little sports it quickly jumped to 180.
I’ve been off it again and my heart rate is down to 50-70.
I feel more messy in my head and am a lot more impulsive but it might also be a bit of rebound from stopping strattera.

Tianeptine - I’ve been taking Tianeptine fairly consistently 2 times a day again and after a few weeks my mood felt more stable and brighter, which in turn made me more positive about starting things. This matches what I wrote in one of my previous replies and I’m glad it was replicable.

After a bit of trialing, Phenylalanine in the morning alongside a MAO-B inhibitor (Selegiline 5mg/day) is now part of my stack. I don’t really feel much from it and couldn’t tell if I took it or not, but after a couple days of consistently taking it I noticed feeling better and better. I’d even say it’s even a little similar to Tianeptine.

**L-deprenyl plus L-phenylalanine in the treatment of depression.**
https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/6425455/

My depressive symptoms feel almost completely obliterated. I barely have any sorts of dark thoughts nor do I feel lonely these days and my outlook on life improved drastically.
I feel highly motivated and even started picking up older hobbies and passions that kind of died off in the past.
The wall is still there, but man does it feel easier to get over it.

A theory is that the increased impulsiveness / energy from stopping strattera, together with the anti-depressive effects of phenylalanine + tianeptine resulted in this boost of motivation.

Then, another question that has been creeping up is if I’m not bipolar after all and currently in a manic / hypo-manic episode.

Also a little worried that stopping Strattera will turn me into an emotional mess again.


Stack:
- Selegiline (5mg)
- Phenylalanine (355mg)
- Methylphenidate (Concerta / 27mg)
- Tianeptine (12.5mg / 2x day)

Other stuff I’m taking/doing (not related to this)
- Zinc, Magnesium
- NMN
- Pterostilbene,
- Omega3
- Allicin
- Some sort of workout / physical activity most days
- Daily meditation

Edited by floweryriddle, 24 February 2019 - 10:56 PM.

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#158 cat-nips

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 03:52 AM

Nice updates.  There's a warm, focused, little group here, so it's pleasant to hear how you all are faring.  Love the share, since we all have our coping methods and perhaps can pick up a few from time to time, by doing so.   

 

Flowery: I wouldn't stress the bipolar thing too much.  It's just a label.  If you weren't bipolar before you went on Concerta, then it's probably just a side effect of the fluctuating neurotransmitters that comes with taking these meds.  My key indicator is if I go for 3+ days without sleep and am still not tired and unusually cheerful, or if I start going off and ranting and raging about things that wouldn't normally provoke such an extreme reaction.  I've learned to try to recognize it and adjust accordingly.  I have mild, daily swings mostly every day, a few times a day, and larger swings that last for longer periods, but I will never medicate for bipolar issues.  For the longer ones, if the swing is positive and productive, then I ride it out.  If it's negative and hostile, then I try to quickly change it with alternative measures (change of environment, task, focus, exercise, another supplement, etc).  If it's a small one then I try to ignore it and find something else to focus on.  I guess it's similar to a form of self-performed DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), that's rooted in self-awareness of emotional states, similar to practices like meditation, etc and making a choice to be reactive to those emotional states, or not.  It doesn't always work, but it often does enough so that I can live with it.  

 

If you're stable with your stack now, then go with it.  :).   Hopefully your magnesium is either threonate or a blend of threonate/glycinate, and that your omega source has a higher EPA to DHA ratio and you're aiming for a total EPA/DPA dosage to be ~1000mg, maybe a little less.

 

Drew: I looked at the CRISPR stuff, and it's interesting, but I don't see it as a viable option anytime in the near future, unfortunately.  My research points to a lack of oxygen, faulty/reduced neurotransmission in localized regions in the brain, specifically the frontal lobe and a portion of the amygdala.  But the brain is compensatory so what lacks in one area can grow to be stronger in others.  Based on that neuroplasticity model, whether the condition is genetic or a byproduct of an environmental effect or damage is irrelevant because the treatment options and cures target the same symptomology.  At least by current standards.

 

Also, if med holidays are working for you to help keep side effects in check, then that's awesome.  For me personally, once I start, I can't take holidays.  My dosing needs to be pretty consistent for it to be effective and if I miss a day, I'm usually a mess, since the half-life of these agents are all under a 24hr range.  I go into withdrawal if I take holidays and it really just sucks.  Another thought would be to add a serotonergic agent like 5-HTP or something in the late afternoon towards the evenings to help balance those NT levels, keeping depression, hostility and anger somewhat more at bay.  Just a theory.  CBD may be another option.  

 

Dealing with some other health and unrelated areas now that my attention issues have resolved on Dexedrine.  For mood stabilization, I pretty much rely on THC/CBD products to get me through it.  It works for me and helps keep some of that balance in check if I can get the dosing/strain right.   

 

Hope you guys will periodically post and update this thread.  Nice to feel a sense of community here, even in this small section of the interwebs  ;)


Edited by cat-nips, 27 February 2019 - 04:38 AM.


#159 DrewMichael21

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 06:47 AM

Nice updates.  There's a warm, focused, little group here, so it's pleasant to hear how you all are faring.  Love the share, since we all have our coping methods and perhaps can pick up a few from time to time, by doing so.   

 

Flowery: I wouldn't stress the bipolar thing too much.  It's just a label.  If you weren't bipolar before you went on Concerta, then it's probably just a side effect of the fluctuating neurotransmitters that comes with taking these meds.  My key indicator is if I go for 3+ days without sleep and am still not tired and unusually cheerful, or if I start going off and ranting and raging about things that wouldn't normally provoke such an extreme reaction.  I've learned to try to recognize it and adjust accordingly.  I have mild, daily swings mostly every day, a few times a day, and larger swings that last for longer periods, but I will never medicate for bipolar issues.  For the longer ones, if the swing is positive and productive, then I ride it out.  If it's negative and hostile, then I try to quickly change it with alternative measures (change of environment, task, focus, exercise, another supplement, etc).  If it's a small one then I try to ignore it and find something else to focus on.  I guess it's similar to a form of self-performed DBT (Dialectical Behavior Therapy), that's rooted in self-awareness of emotional states, similar to practices like meditation, etc and making a choice to be reactive to those emotional states, or not.  It doesn't always work, but it often does enough so that I can live with it.  

 

If you're stable with your stack now, then go with it.  :).   Hopefully your magnesium is either threonate or a blend of threonate/glycinate, and that your omega source has a higher EPA to DHA ratio and you're aiming for a total EPA/DPA dosage to be ~1000mg, maybe a little less.

 

Drew: I looked at the CRISPR stuff, and it's interesting, but I don't see it as a viable option anytime in the near future, unfortunately.  My research points to a lack of oxygen, faulty/reduced neurotransmission in localized regions in the brain, specifically the frontal lobe and a portion of the amygdala.  But the brain is compensatory so what lacks in one area can grow to be stronger in others.  Based on that neuroplasticity model, whether the condition is genetic or a byproduct of an environmental effect or damage is irrelevant because the treatment options and cures target the same symptomology.  At least by current standards.

 

Also, if med holidays are working for you to help keep side effects in check, then that's awesome.  For me personally, once I start, I can't take holidays.  My dosing needs to be pretty consistent for it to be effective and if I miss a day, I'm usually a mess, since the half-life of these agents are all under a 24hr range.  I go into withdrawal if I take holidays and it really just sucks.  Another thought would be to add a serotonergic agent like 5-HTP or something in the late afternoon towards the evenings to help balance those NT levels, keeping depression, hostility and anger somewhat more at bay.  Just a theory.  CBD may be another option.  

 

Dealing with some other health and unrelated areas now that my attention issues have resolved on Dexedrine.  For mood stabilization, I pretty much rely on THC/CBD products to get me through it.  It works for me and helps keep some of that balance in check if I can get the dosing/strain right.   

 

Hope you guys will periodically post and update this thread.  Nice to feel a sense of community here, even in this small section of the interwebs  ;)

   Greetings, it's been a long time sense I've heard from you. It's important you realize, that doing ALOT of things doesn't mean your being effective with doing it. In reality, your probably wasting your time taking all these stimulants and just doing to much. Which I'm obviously guilty of as well.  So maybe, you should stop fractionalizing your focus on different therapeutic treatments and just do a few different things and keep experimenting with only those therapetuic doses. It seems irrational to keep testing stuff like a drug addict. Not that, I'm saying you are one but it's better to STICK with a few stimulants or therapeutic doses. Also about the zombie effect, I may have a solution for you or as close as one as possible.  The zombie effect dissappeared to a good degree when I was on a HIGH medication dose and I find that my mood swings and bad anxiety go away as long as I don't take my medication more than 2 consecutive days, otherwise the side effects will outweigh the benefits. Which is why in my last post, I've been thinking of doing 3-4-3-4 3 days on medication and 4 days off or 2-1-2-1-1, Is another theoretical period that maximizes the SWEET SPOT for medication, which Dr. Barkley describes as the lowest possible dose with the highest amount amount of effectiveness with the least side effects by which PREVENTS tolerance rise. So this remedies anxiety by preventing an exhaustion of the d2 and d3 dopaminerigic receptors, which I suspect may be a reason by those awful side effects. These medications are not MEANT to be taken everyday. Regardless of what the manufactures will tell you. I also reccomend you investigate into a guanfacine+concerta combo+ritaline small dose seems to be a treatment option I might check into, but I probably don't need it really.  Also, I recommend you keep more optimism towards CRISPR because that is the CURE for ADHD, once we have identified all the genes that cause ADHD in theory in should replace the faulty mechanisms of dopaminerigic production and in theory normalize dopamine levels. Unless their is either permanent development damage or different in utero formations.  I'd really just like better medication that doesn't have fucking stupid stigma behind it with less side effects and more benefits. Most ADHD medication is very barbaric in how it works and it's ineffectiveness such that it doesn't target the correct areas of the brain for PFC functioning. Like I don't need emotional suppression, I only need PFC functioning so I can do my career well and make a good living. 

 

 

                     P.S Apparently you addressed my points and I missed it so perhaps, disregard some of it if you don't believe it to be useful to you.  I've considered CBD but it simply feels like another repulsive drug that will kill my drive towards greatness and I don't need anymore issues. I reccomend you check into reuptake inhibitors they are nowhere near as horrible on your d2 and d3 receptors as dexerdrine which I have TONS of in my apartment I just don't take it because I DESPISE how it makes me feel.   I've never experienced any type of withdrawl because I hate taking it to begin with. I just want to be normal already... IF I was normal god I'd be invincible.. Tangents now.


Edited by DrewMichael21, 27 February 2019 - 06:52 AM.


#160 cat-nips

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 09:08 AM

Lol, Drew.  Hope you're doing well.  "Testing things like a drug addict?"  Do drug addicts test things?  :-D If I am a drug addict it will be because of the stimulants that I get prescribed from my doctor.  They have far more risk and potential safety and addiction issues than any other nootropic or vitamin/mineral/herb supplemented to rebalance general health.  

 

"All those stimulants?"  I only take one.  Dexedrine.  My dosage has been the same for the 2 years before I went off completely, for over a year, and it's the same now that I've returned to it.  I don't take breaks because once I start, taking a break means that I don't function that day, and that's not an option as people depend on me and plus responsibilities to tend to.  I've had the same insight, but It's not about accepting doing less, it's about functioning or not, and not functioning isn't an option for anyone, for too long.  Eventually, your general quality of life and your future and happiness suffer as a result.

 

I'd be willing to take a guess that amongst the ADHD population on stimulants, there is a much higher percentage of those that don't take multiple scheduled days off, every week.  One could make a point that the fluctuations in neurotransmitter levels that occur from the volatility of taking it, not taking it, taking it, not taking it, could contribute to greater emotional dysregulation and inconsistent results over time, from never allowing your brain a chance to stabilize.  We could set up a poll on Longecity, if you're curious, to see the percentage of stim users in this subset that take med breaks from 0-4 days off a week, lol.  I know treatment holidays are recommended, and some can take weekends off or something similar, but I've never been able to do so without suffering.  

 

Different neurochemistry and genetics that respond to one class of meds over the other.  There's still primarily just the two classes though.  Yes, still crude treatments, which is the whole point of my experimentation with alternatives :).  I have actually been on that combo you mentioned, but it didn't last for more than a month.  I was a miserable, hateful, organized, joyless, taskmaster on Concerta/Ritalin and I couldn't take it without at least one person asking me what was wrong, every time I did.  So I guess we had opposite responses :).  I haven't had a good reaction to most of the DRI's I've tried, unfortunately.  Wellbutrin was the worst.  Guanfacine was fairly nice at first but after about 2 months, lowered my pulse rate so low that I was too freezing to leave my bed or house and too tired to exercise, or take my kid to school, or move.    :wacko:   

 

Eventually you'll figure out what works for you, most likely some kind of balance between knowing your limitations/ abilities, as well as managing the treatments in the most effective way for your lifestyle.  If you were invincible, you wouldn't be normal.  Tangents.  :)   

 

 

 

 

 



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#161 floweryriddle

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Posted 27 February 2019 - 09:47 PM

I pretty much agree with you on all points.

"All those stimulants?" I only take one. Dexedrine. My dosage has been the same for the 2 years before I went off completely, for over a year, and it's the same now that I've returned to it. I don't take breaks because once I start, taking a break means that I don't function that day, and that's not an option as people depend on me and plus responsibilities to tend to. I've had the same insight, but It's not about accepting doing less, it's about functioning or not, and not functioning isn't an option for anyone, for too long. Eventually, your general quality of life and your future and happiness suffer as a result.

When I first got put on Concerta I thought a lot about this and experimented with break days. I had a strict schedule when I took my meds and when I don’t but eventually like you said: Days when I don’t take my meds are usually very unproductive days compared to the meds days. I thought way too much about when to take it and when not, and after a while I liked the meds days so much more that I’m now constantly on it, unless it’s an occasion where I really don’t need it like when I’m traveling or chilling at the beach.
Taking breaks is possible but neither my doc advises yet nor does my work really allow it, plus Methylphenidate is fairly safe and on the market for a very long time.


@drew If I were a drug addict and my goal was to get high I’d definitely not experiement with antidepressants and just get harder drugs or eat PEA. I experiment because I’m not at my sweetspot yet. I’m getting closer to it, but not there yet. But again my only options for ADHD here in Japan are Strattera and Concerta. My doc can throw other antidepressants at me and see what sticks but other unconventional things like Selegiline or Welbutrin I would never be able to get here for it. Hell I can’t even get Guanfacine which is available, but only for children. I feel like specialists for ADHD just isn’t really a thing here yet.
The main reason why I’m taking a MAO-B inhibitor (Selegiline for now) is because it allows me to reduce my Concerta to the 2 lowest available dosages: 18mg and 27mg which is a massive win in my opinion. It’s also just in general increasing my dopamine levels which has effects even when I’m not taking stimulants.(Well, now the other reason why I take it is because it synergises so well with Phenylalanine)

Anyway cheers guys! Also really like this small focused groups. We’re all chasing the same goal and I feel like there is definitely progress here.

Edited by floweryriddle, 27 February 2019 - 09:53 PM.






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