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gingivitis causing Alzheimer's disease?

gingivitis alzheimers disease porphyromonas gingivalis

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#1 jack black

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 02:56 PM


We've heard the infection link in AD, but this is news to me:

https://www.sciencea...eimer-s-disease

https://en.wikipedia...onas_gingivalis

 

Wow! I'm glad I'm brushing, flossing and waterpiking (it sure helps preventing gingivitis).

 



#2 Mind

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:01 PM

Consider me skeptical. If this was the primary cause of Alzheimer's (this one bacteria species), I would tend to think someone would have noticed through decades and decades of research - that people with gingivitis were the only one's getting Alzheimer's. Instead, what has been noticed is that people who make poor health choices (little exercise and a crappy diet) tend to get Alzheimer's.

 

Also, given all of the bacteria species we encounter throughout our lives (millions?), why would only one be the cause of Alzheimer's?

 

Over the past decade or so, some have been investigating the gingivitis/heart disease link, claiming it is the primary cause of heart disease. Here is another age-related condition highly correlated with poor health choices (little exercise and a crappy diet).

 

 


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#3 Oakman

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 06:41 PM

Needs more definitive studies, but any hope of help with this disease is good news.  The concept does follow 'common sense', in that inflammation anywhere is bad for the body, and can manifest itself throughout the body in unforeseen ways. 


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#4 Dichotohmy

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 05:32 PM

The oral biome is another part of the human immune system, much like the intestinal biome but probably less significant due to the intestinal biome being much larger and innervated, so it should really be no surprise that a significant imbalance or overgrowth in the oral biome can cause all sorts of diseases. It has been known for a while that bad oral health is strongly correlated to the developement of all kinds of diseases. I even recall being told this by a dental hygenist over 15 years ago. This link is not just limited to periodontitis and the developement of systemic inflammation, but also the spread of bacteria from the mouth to other parts of the body. Also of note, LPS and other toxins from a harmful bacterial infection in the mouth can spread to other parts of the body, with endotoxins being strongly linked to brain diseases and inflammatory immune response. In effect, oral infections are pretty devious because deep in the gums is an environment where the infection can grow in relative safety like few other places in the body. These infections then create toxins, spread throughout the body, and both of those factors drive a systemic inflammatory response - any three of which can cause problems, let alone all three at once.

 

With Alzheimer's in particular, I see the disease as definitely bacterial-related. In particular, Amyloid-beta plaques, once thought of a cause of dementia, may well actually just be an adaptation that the immune system uses to sequester bacteria that crosses the BBB. It's also thought that the body does something similar in the lymphatic system, with calcified lymph nodes being a sign that bacteria or virus proteins being "trapped" inside the calcified lymph node. In regards to Alzheimer's, I bet the formation of amyloid, while probably saving the brain from a runaway infection, also inevitable destroys some neurons during the formation process.

 

Why the oral-biome link isn't talked about more, nor why the chronic infection-link to all sorts of diseases isn't talked about more, is surprising and unfortunate. Medical science can be very disingenuous about exploring evidence and slow to change or even explore the need to change accepted paradigms. Here's a recent thread that explores that topic a little bit more.


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#5 Dichotohmy

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 05:48 PM



Consider me skeptical. If this was the primary cause of Alzheimer's (this one bacteria species), I would tend to think someone would have noticed through decades and decades of research - that people with gingivitis were the only one's getting Alzheimer's. Instead, what has been noticed is that people who make poor health choices (little exercise and a crappy diet) tend to get Alzheimer's.

 

Also, given all of the bacteria species we encounter throughout our lives (millions?), why would only one be the cause of Alzheimer's?

 

Over the past decade or so, some have been investigating the gingivitis/heart disease link, claiming it is the primary cause of heart disease. Here is another age-related condition highly correlated with poor health choices (little exercise and a crappy diet).

 

The infection-Alzheimer's link shouldn't be thought of as just originating from gingivitis. Oral infections are just one possible source of the purported bacterial origin of Alzheimers. There's no reason that the intestinal biome couldn't cause the same problems as oral infection, via endotoxins from gram-negative species, viral proteins, or even live bacteria escaping via permeable holes in the intestines. Other bacteria might hide deep in the organs until the time is right for the bacteria to run loose, like Chlamydia Pnuemoniae from an old respiratory infection. CP in particular has been linked to Alzheimer's for a long time Still other bacteria, like the ever-maligned "Lyme" tick-borne bacteria, are known to hide deep in places like joints or lymph nodes where they too can cause mischief. Admittedly, the link between Lyme infections and Alzheimer's is not so strong in particular, but the princlipe applies that infections that can cause Alzheimer's, and other terrible diseases, can originate in a lot of places.

 

Some of these threats can indeed be mitigated by lifestyle choices, like diet or exercise, which contribute to good gut and immune health. Sometimes, though, like if the infection is hiding in places that are hard to reach by immune cells, or the immune system is weakened by age or unavoidable biological stress, there's not a lot one can do about it.


Edited by Dichotohmy, 25 January 2019 - 05:53 PM.

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#6 xEva

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Posted 25 January 2019 - 11:32 PM

Consider me skeptical. If this was the primary cause of Alzheimer's (this one bacteria species),

 

Actually, P. gingivalis is very common, to the point that it is considered a part of a 'normal' flora. It rarely causes issues in healthy people -- until they start fasting or try a severe CR. That's when it goes into overdrive as its virulence is activated by autophagy. Other 'well-behaved' oral bacteria are known to turn nasty in the presence of P. gingivalis.

 

Most people discover they have it only when they attempt to fast.  P. gingivalis is responsible for the widespread misconception that ketones stink (when fasters complain of a nasty 'ketosis breath'). But ketones have a sour/fruity smell. What stinks in most people attempting to fast is P.gingivalis they did not know they had. It can cause bleeding gums during a prolonged fast, even if there were no such symptoms on a regular diet. (and the quickest way to make both bad breath and gingivitis of a fast go away is to start eating).

 

P. gingivalis is one of the nastiest common bugs. It is worth to go on a fast just to find out whether  you have it. And if you get a really stinky breath at the onset of ketosis, rest assured, this is it. Thank God for antibiotics! 

 

 

 

PS__________

misinformation re ketones and bad breath of fasting is very widespread. Look at this crap by WebMD:

 

Low-Carb Diets Can Cause Bad Breath. ... Bad breath in the low/no-carb sect is often caused by certain chemicals that are released in the breath as the body burns fat. They are called ketones,

 

Ketones don't stink. In most cases it is P.gingivalis.


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#7 gamesguru

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 05:52 AM

There are multiple studies suggesting the associations between gum disease and both cardiovascular and neurologic health.

 

The stinky breath from fasting can be put in check with a better toothpaste, I recommend uncle harry's.  It's loaded with proven antibiotic essential oils.



#8 izan82

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 09:11 PM

povidone-iodine mouthwash annihilates P. gingivalis


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#9 xEva

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Posted 26 January 2019 - 10:31 PM

povidone-iodine mouthwash annihilates P. gingivalis

 

In the mouth! But this bug colonizes the whole GI tract and can spread elsewhere. It is also strongly associated with rheumatoid arthritis.


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#10 izan82

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 12:15 AM

In the mouth! But this bug colonizes the whole GI tract and can spread elsewhere. It is also strongly associated with rheumatoid arthritis.

Any idea how to eradicate this demon?



#11 gamesguru

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 03:12 AM

Any idea how to eradicate this demon?

 

Lactobacillus rhamnosus could inhibit Porphyromonas gingivalis derived CXCL8 attenuation

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4775012/

 

Inhibitory effect of garlic extract on oral bacteria.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/15892950

 

Effects of the tea catechin epigallocatechin gallate on Porphyromonas gingivalis biofilms.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/24471579

 

also turmeric, berberine, Persica


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#12 xEva

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Posted 27 January 2019 - 10:59 AM

Any idea how to eradicate this demon?

 

this bug is known for especially tough biofilm formation. So I'd take antibiotics (and not just one kind) and would certainly combine them with a biofilm disruptor and quorum sensing inhibitor (btw I have just seen that D-Ribose is a quorum sensing inhibitor -- who would have thought!). Also, according to this paper, among commonly available biofilm disruptors are cranberry, tea and essential oils. Strange they don't mention serrapeptase or nattokinase.

 

Another biofilm disruptor, easily available, is Nexium (prilosec) https://www.longecit...se-tooth-decay/

 

And not to forget xylitol!


Edited by xEva, 27 January 2019 - 11:01 AM.

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#13 jack black

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 01:19 AM

xEva, that is some good info of biofilms, but i'm afraid off topic here as Porphyromonas gingivalis propagates intracellularly inside human cells protected from antibiotics and any local treatments.

 

now, there is a company that is testing a Porphyromonas gingivalis treatment and vaccine, and this is the only thing that gives me a pause here, this may be a hype to promote those treatments.


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#14 zorba990

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 02:47 AM

Using competing bacterial strains may be a better strategy. It seems to work for step throat

Use of Streptococcus salivarius K12 in the prevention of streptococcal and viral pharyngotonsillitis in children
https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3928062/

"Prophylactic administration of S. salivarius K12 to children with a history of recurrent oral streptococcal disease resulted in a considerable reduction of episodes of both streptococcal and viral infections and reduced the number of days under antibiotic and/or antipyretic therapy and days of absence from school or work."

#15 jack black

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 03:59 PM

Using competing bacterial strains may be a better strategy. It seems to work for step throat

 

 

since you mentioned that, phage therapy also has a huge promise in antibiotic-resistant bacteria treatments.



#16 izan82

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 06:17 PM

Can we destroy this microbe with plain old doxycycline?



#17 Phoebus

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Posted 28 January 2019 - 08:56 PM

Can we destroy this microbe with plain old doxycycline?

 

 

sure but it will destroy you gut flora 

 

instead use tea tree oil 

 

https://bitemagazine...que-gingivitis/

 

or cinnamon ess. oil 

 

http://mattioli1885j...ticle/view/1729

 

both proven to work on gingivitas 


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#18 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 07:06 PM

 

 

Another biofilm disruptor, easily available, is Nexium (prilosec) https://www.longecit...se-tooth-decay/

 

 

 

 

Are you talking about taking Nexium as normally prescribed or making some sort of mothwash with it?

 

If the former I would think that raising stomach ph would be a move in the wrong direction as far as eradicating p. gingivalis in the gut.  In fact we keep hearing of an association of PPIs with an increased risk of Alzheimer's.  The proposed mechanism is a decrease of B12 absorption.  But if this gingivitis theory is correct an increased ability of p. gingivalis to colonize the GI tract might be the real culprit.


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#19 xEva

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 01:53 AM

Are you talking about taking Nexium as normally prescribed or making some sort of mothwash with it?

 

If the former I would think that raising stomach ph would be a move in the wrong direction as far as eradicating p. gingivalis in the gut.  In fact we keep hearing of an association of PPIs with an increased risk of Alzheimer's.  The proposed mechanism is a decrease of B12 absorption.  But if this gingivitis theory is correct an increased ability of p. gingivalis to colonize the GI tract might be the real culprit.

 

As normally prescribed, Nexium should work on gut flora and, depending on its absorption, elsewhere. But I thought it would be a very good additive to a mouthwash. but it turned out that it has very poor solubility and that a closely related compound, soluble in water, was available only to doctors (or through a group buy from alibaba, which I sorta attempted, but there was no interest in it).

 

And, if you read the reason's report which opened up that thread, this was not due to PPI mechanism of Nexium but its ability to very effectively disrupt biofilm formation. There are many different substances that can disrupt biofilm formation, to various extent. Very few are PPIs, iow this is unrelated.

 

Re B12 absorption, I must have missed it -? Where did you see it in connection to Nexium? (that's the original paper reported on by reason in that thread).


Edited by xEva, 30 January 2019 - 02:05 AM.


#20 golden1

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 04:31 AM

 

As normally prescribed, Nexium should work on gut flora and, depending on its absorption, elsewhere. But I thought it would be a very good additive to a mouthwash. but it turned out that it has very poor solubility and that a closely related compound, soluble in water, was available only to doctors (or through a group buy from alibaba, which I sorta attempted, but there was no interest in it).
 
And, if you read the reason's report which opened up that thread, this was not due to PPI mechanism of Nexium but its ability to very effectively disrupt biofilm formation. There are many different substances that can disrupt biofilm formation, to various extent. Very few are PPIs, iow this is unrelated.
 
Re B12 absorption, I must have missed it -? Where did you see it in connection to Nexium? (that's the original paper reported on by reason in that thread).

 

acetylcysteine is a powerful biofilm disruptor: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25339490 etc


b12 and prilosec: acid reducing drugs lower pepsin:

"Vitamin B12 absorption involves peptic enzymes to cleave dietary B12 from dietary proteins. This is performed primarily by pepsin, which requires gastric acid to activate it from its pepsinogen precursor. Without gastric acid, vitamin B12 would not be cleaved from dietary protein and would not be able to bind to R-proteins, which in turn protect vitamin B12 from pancreatic digestion [Festen, 1991]. It has been hypothesized that since gastric acidity is required for vitamin B12 absorption, acid suppression may lead to malabsorption and ultimately vitamin B12 deficiency from atrophic gastritis and achlorhydria [Howden, 2000]." https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4110863/
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#21 golden1

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 01:33 AM

 

  

acetylcysteine is a powerful biofilm disruptor: https://www.ncbi.nlm...pubmed/25339490 etc


b12 and prilosec: acid reducing drugs lower pepsin:

"Vitamin B12 absorption involves peptic enzymes to cleave dietary B12 from dietary proteins. This is performed primarily by pepsin, which requires gastric acid to activate it from its pepsinogen precursor. Without gastric acid, vitamin B12 would not be cleaved from dietary protein and would not be able to bind to R-proteins, which in turn protect vitamin B12 from pancreatic digestion [Festen, 1991]. It has been hypothesized that since gastric acidity is required for vitamin B12 absorption, acid suppression may lead to malabsorption and ultimately vitamin B12 deficiency from atrophic gastritis and achlorhydria [Howden, 2000]." https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC4110863/

 

about acetylcysteine... be careful I tried and now my mouth(including my tongue) is shedding skin... lmao caustic stuff

so make sure it is very diluted.. mouthwash'd for 2 minutes with some in water and it didn't hurt, some irritation, so did not expect my skin to die off, but it did... seems fine now

This makes me sure now that my intense stomach problems solved by a 5 month course of omeprazole was from... acetylcysteine and possibly phenibut. definitely wrecked my stomach lining for a while: gastritis, extreme bloating, always "full", nausea, sweating, shaking...etc.

Edited by golden1, 03 February 2019 - 01:36 AM.

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#22 BioHacker=Life

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 02:02 AM

sure but it will destroy you gut flora 

 

instead use tea tree oil 

 

https://bitemagazine...que-gingivitis/

 

or cinnamon ess. oil 

 

http://mattioli1885j...ticle/view/1729

 

both proven to work on gingivitas 

 

Not if you use an oral rinse.



#23 Hip

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 04:17 AM

Prof Paul W. Ewald believes that most illnesses of currently unknown etiology will likely turn out to be caused by infectious pathogens.
 
Ewald argues that the role of genes in chronic illnesses has been overstated, and points out that "chronic diseases, if they are common and damaging, must be powerful eliminators of any genetic instruction that may cause them." In other words, any disease-causing gene that reduces survival and reproduction will eliminate itself over a number of generations, just by evolutionary pressures; therefore such genetic diseases are self-extinguishing. So this an evolutionary biology argument against genetic factors as the primary cause of chronic disease.

 

So if genes are not the main cause, that leaves us with environmental toxins, lifestyle factors, and infections pathogens as possible causes. The general public often blame disease on lifestyle factors and perhaps environmental toxins, but few appreciate the role that pathogens may play. But the evidence for pathogens being major players in disease etiology is mounting by the decade.

 

Ewald points out in this video that in the 1970s, no cancers were known to be cause by infectious microorganisms. As it stands at present, around 20% of cancers have been shown to be caused by microorganisms. So you can see where this trend is going: more and more chronic diseases being shown to be caused by pathogens. Ewald states: "I would bet that by 2050—hopefully earlier—we’ll have found that more than 80 percent of all human cancer is caused by infection".


Edited by Hip, 03 February 2019 - 04:20 AM.

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#24 GABAergic

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 04:53 AM

ive noticed xeva freely recommends antibotics as if they are quite harmless in general but help out long term. that is such dangerous thing to keep recommending. for a person who has used antibiotics so many times and each time becoming actually more sick than initial treatment  beginning, i think people like you just recommending them left and right should stop. i almost died from antibiotics few times and i figured more than once i was better off dealing with my infections naturally which helped and long term i have been better. yes, antibiotics kill your gut flora which is the main issue of course, but more than that, they can damage organs, especially the brain long term. i say, stop suggesting, and try and research how damaging they are first, ktnx.


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#25 xEva

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 05:35 PM

ive noticed xeva freely recommends antibotics as if they are quite harmless in general but help out long term. that is such dangerous thing to keep recommending. for a person who has used antibiotics so many times and each time becoming actually more sick than initial treatment  beginning, i think people like you just recommending them left and right should stop. i almost died from antibiotics few times and i figured more than once i was better off dealing with my infections naturally which helped and long term i have been better. yes, antibiotics kill your gut flora which is the main issue of course, but more than that, they can damage organs, especially the brain long term. i say, stop suggesting, and try and research how damaging they are first, ktnx.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I do not "recommend antibiotics". Just like you I share my experience, which has been overwhelmingly positive. I believe by the time we're adult we know how antibiotics affect us personally. One of my favorite, Bactrim, is known to cause death in some people due to a severe allergic reaction when their skin just peels off.

 

I think we should continue sharing our experiences, both positive and negative, and let the adults decide for themselves.


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#26 GABAergic

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 10:23 PM

"One of my favorite, Bactrim, is known to cause death in some people due to a severe allergic reaction when their skin just peels off." yikes nice one to have as favorite. you might also enjoy krokodil


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#27 Hip

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 10:40 PM

 antibiotics kill your gut flora which is the main issue of course, but more than that, they can damage organs, especially the brain long term. 

 

You really need to be more precise, and provide information about the level of risk. For example, do antibiotics cause organ damage in 1 in 10,000 people, or 1 in 10 million people? And also which antibiotics are involved in this damage? 

 

It's no good simply stating antibiotics can damage organs. Mains electricity can electrocute people, airliners can crash, restaurant meals can lead to food poisoning. But we don't generally abstain from using electricity, airplanes or restaurants, because we know that statistically our chances of coming to harm are pretty low; we know that these are very low risk activities.


Edited by Hip, 03 February 2019 - 10:41 PM.

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#28 xEva

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Posted 04 February 2019 - 02:49 AM

"One of my favorite, Bactrim, is known to cause death in some people due to a severe allergic reaction when their skin just peels off." yikes nice one to have as favorite. you might also enjoy krokodil

 

oh! looks like you're allergic to sulfa drugs. That's a bad one and one of the most common (2% self-reported).

 

re "yikes", I hope my lack of allergy to sulfas does not automatically make me a disgusting person certain to "enjoy" street drugs of questionable quality. The thing definitely yucky for me is, strangely enough, capers.



#29 GABAergic

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 02:57 AM

You really need to be more precise, and provide information about the level of risk. For example, do antibiotics cause organ damage in 1 in 10,000 people, or 1 in 10 million people? And also which antibiotics are involved in this damage? 

 

It's no good simply stating antibiotics can damage organs. Mains electricity can electrocute people, airliners can crash, restaurant meals can lead to food poisoning. But we don't generally abstain from using electricity, airplanes or restaurants, because we know that statistically our chances of coming to harm are pretty low; we know that these are very low risk activities.

 

 

if we did abstained from all those our chances of living longer are better. but of all those, antibiotics are the EASIEST TO ABSTAIN from, and you dont have to live in the woods somewhere to do so. its very simple to not take antibiotics UNLESS IN EMERGENCY. why risk ANY SIDE EFFECT they might cause by using them for the general cold perhaps? or maybe for UTI? or because you broke a nail and scratched a finger. yes, people OVERUSE antibiotics in todays society for crap reasons. doctors prescribe them very quick on the go. if you didnt read about them damaging the gut flora, i am very surprised but i can accept it happening, ill would go to google and look into it


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