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Alpha-GPC, CDP-Choline, ALCAR, TMG -- TMAO production by supplement?

cardiovascular

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#1 brosci

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 04:55 PM


I usually have at least one of these in my stack, sometimes a couple:

  • Alpha-GPC
  • CDP-Choline
  • Acetyl-L-Carnitine
  • Trimethylglycine

 

Are these all suspected to increase TMAO levels, or do some present more or less risk?



#2 Oakman

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:06 PM

Interesting question, as I take the ones you mention quite often. Seems like the experts / studies are clear on TMAO production from supps and foods, but not what it does to us... and why contradictory study results on various substances confound the truth further. TMAO from eating fish is good, but from meat & eggs it's bad? Would be nice to some clear answers, but this quote probably sums up what I found, "Therefore, you should take the studies above with a grain of salt."

 

Meanwhile, I like my choline, even if I don't eat red meat.



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#3 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 07:58 PM

You might be interested in this thread - 3,3-Dimethyl-1-butanol (choline analogue) as a TMAO inhibitor
 

That thread hasn't gotten the attention I think it deserves.

 

 

 


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#4 Dorian Grey

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Posted 21 May 2019 - 06:41 AM

Chris Masterjohn has a great rebuttal to the choline heart disease debate:

 

https://www.westonap...-heart-disease/

 

Theoretically, choline can increase TMAO, but dietary seafood has been documented to produce much higher blood/urine levels.  If choline is bad, then dietary seafood should be deadly, yet the Japanese eat lots of seafood and outlive about everyone else on the planet.  

 

Carnitine?  Chris to the rescue once again: https://www.westonap...-heart-disease/

 

I personally like phosphatidylcholine better than CDP.  Mother Nature's form, but that's just me.  I actually take a refined lecithin PPC (polyenylphosphatidylcholine), brand name "PhosChol".

 

http://www.phoschol.com/  

 

All things in moderation, and to thine own self be true!  


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#5 brosci

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 12:32 AM

I came across this article this afternoon, just before biting the bullet and buying some ALCAR.

 

Chronic Oral l-Carnitine Supplementation Drives Marked Plasma TMAO Elevations in Patients with Organic Acidemias Despite Dietary Meat Restrictions: https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5110437/

"In conclusion, these findings demonstrate that oral l-carnitine could be conferring an increased risk to develop atherosclerosis over years of therapy due to chronic and extreme elevations in TMAO."

 

For now, I think I'm going to avoid it until newer peer-reviewed research gives me more confidence. The most optimistic research I've found seems to suggest "while TMAO levels increase with supplementation, no longer term studies have been conducted to demonstrate adverse effects."

 

I came across this article, but it's not as authoritative as I'd like:

https://jonbarron.or...d-heart-disease

 

"Acetyl-l-carnitine is not involved in fat metabolism at all—zero, nada. Instead, it works as a powerful antioxidant that crosses the blood-brain barrier (something L-carnitine cannot do) and thus helps prevent brain cell deterioration. Bottom line: there is absolutely no evidence that Acetyl-l-carnitine presents any problems in terms of TMAO and/or heart health."

 

There's no mention of how something like CDP-choline would factor into this equation at all.

 

Need more data!


Edited by brosci, 29 May 2019 - 12:34 AM.


#6 KBAnthis

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:34 PM

My opinion is my opinion from my experience. Whenever I took ALCAR I noticed a very strong increase in a fishy body odor, which to me was the deal breaker. It was more of an intense smell that was unpleasent compared to the tolerable increase in body odor I get from consuming raw egg yolks. ALCAR in my opinion is not worth it do to this, and I didn't really care for the energy I got from it. It was uneven in its effect in my experience. I do not regret trying it, but do not personally care for it.


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#7 pamojja

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 09:57 PM

My ubiome result after about 8 years supplementing cholines, TMG, carnitines and adding weekly fish and daily eggs to my diet (after having been vegetarian for 30 years):
 

TMA-Producing Microbes (gut microbes that produce trimethylamine (TMA), a chemical that is later converted within the body to trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO):

0.53x than Selected Samples (These are samples from individuals who report no ailments and high levels of wellness.)

 

The problem is, there are just too many causes of CVD. For example had a spinal-cord infection 20 years ago exactly at the height where I developed 10 years ago a 80% stenosis at my aorta (causing a 60% walking-disability from that PAD, meanwhile with lot of efforts in remission). All other arteries are clear of plaque.


Edited by pamojja, 31 May 2019 - 10:03 PM.


#8 brosci

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 06:54 PM

My ubiome result after about 8 years supplementing cholines, TMG, carnitines and adding weekly fish and daily eggs to my diet (after having been vegetarian for 30 years):
 

 

The problem is, there are just too many causes of CVD. For example had a spinal-cord infection 20 years ago exactly at the height where I developed 10 years ago a 80% stenosis at my aorta (causing a 60% walking-disability from that PAD, meanwhile with lot of efforts in remission). All other arteries are clear of plaque.

 

Where did you find the TMAO info in your ubiome data? (I don't see it in my explorer view.) I wonder how accurate this is -- does a tiny sample collection represent the actual gut microbiome and is this flora stable over months / years?



#9 pamojja

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:25 PM

Where did you find the TMAO info in your ubiome data? (I don't see it in my explorer view.) I wonder how accurate this is -- does a tiny sample collection represent the actual gut microbiome and is this flora stable over months / years?

 

Checked again, and saw they now removed the TMA tab again.They also reduced the information made available under the other tabs. Many gut microbiomes are pretty stable. But can also change through dietary changes, antibiotics, or gut infections.

 

https://www.national...icrobiome-self/

 

First it is only as accurate as the studies they found identifying TMA producing bacteria, and how much each produce. But moreover - and that could probably cause large errors too - it is only measuring the percentages of different bacteria in a tiny drop, which isn't a population count. And it certainly would make a difference if one individual contained only 3 trillions bugs, while an other 5 trillions in total.
 

By the way, there is a free online service where you can upload your ubiome results: http://microbiomepre...rewebsites.net/ This database looks at more detail for example at your vitamin producing bacteria (with somewhat different results to ubiome, since he evaluated relevant studies himself), but moreover weights each substance on it's influence (increase/decrease) on each bacteria, wherever known.


Edited by pamojja, 02 June 2019 - 08:31 PM.


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#10 brosci

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Posted 06 June 2019 - 07:20 PM

Thinking more about this, if these compounds are problematic... would DMAE / Centrophenoxine be a way to supply choline without TMAO?







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