20 replies to this topic

[Rorororo]

I'd like to start taking some kind of chelating agent in the mornings. I take 1k mg Vitamin C 3 times per day. (2X on empty stomach and 1 with dinner). The reason I take 1 with dinner is because I take an Astaxanthin supplement with green tea in it and I'd like to maximize the effectiveness of the main components in green tea and I've read taking vitamin C along with it helps maximize its effects. However, I'm worried that taking the Vitamin C with food may increase my iron levels. So would taking something like IP-6 be a good idea? Or maybe something else? Or should I not worry about such things? I do not have the option of getting my iron levels checked in the near future.

[Dorian Grey]

Curcumin, Quercetin & IP6 are natures best chelators.  I've taken them all (in low doses) for extended periods, with no side effects.  Curcumin & Quercetin with meals, and IP6 on an empty stomach with plain water.  

 

One caution with polyphenol supplements, & particularly green tea, is that these do bind dietary thiamine to an unusable form, so it's wise to have at least one meal per day with NO polyphenols or flavonoids (tea, coffee, wine, curcumin or quercetin, onions & many fruits) to avoid developing a sub-clinical thiamine deficiency.  Read up on "anti-thiamine" factors

 

http://helid.digicol...s2900e/8.2.html

 

in food and learn about this before you dive too deep into polyphenols.  IP6 doesn't have this problem, and it's dirt cheap.  Probably chelates more effectively too.  

 

I only take Vitamin-C on an empty stomach a couple of times per day.  If you wash it down with at least 8 ounces of water, it should be out of your stomach within 30 minutes or so.  Once the C is through your duodenum, it should not enhance uptake of dietary iron (which occurs primarily in the duodenum).  

 

Thorne Research has a great monograph on IP6 here: https://www.foundati...02/v7-3-244.pdf

 

I never take IP6 more than once a day.  It's not supposed to effect trace minerals if you take it on an empty stomach, but when it comes to chelation, I feel moderation is wise.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 31 October 2019 - 05:29 AM.

[Rorororo]

Dorian you are exactly the person I was hoping would respond so thank you. So taking this would remove excess iron from my blood right? Would it remove magnesium as well? I do supplement magnesium (along with k2 and vitamin D). My plan would be to take the IP-6 in the morning on an empty stomach along with a Dhea/Pregnenolone capsule and 1k mg vitamin C. Maybe 2 hours later I would eat lunch with a k2 supplement. With dinner I take Astaxanthin/green tea, sunflower lecithin, and 1k mg vitamin C. At bedtime on an empty stomach I take Vitamin D3, magnesium, and another 1k mg vitamin C.

[Rorororo]

Dorian one last question if I may... you say low dosage no side effects (in your experience). I plan on taking 1000 mg of the IP-6. Would that be considered a low dose?
Thanks again

[Dorian Grey]

This paper here:

 

https://pdfs.semanti...7740.1572501908

 

goes into the "antinutrient" issues with IP6: 

 

"This strong chelating capacity of IP6 associated with its six reactive phosphate groups has in the past been regarded as responsible for antinutritional side effects of IP6. However, more recent studies have contradicted those opinions by stating that in evaluation of antinutritional effects of IP6 various factors should be considered, such as the ratio of IP6 to overall mineral content of the diet [7]. It has been shown that the antinutritional effect of IP6 could be manifested only when large amounts of IP6 were consumed together with a diet poor in trace elements, but if essential minerals were present in the proper ratio with respect to IP6, there was no modification of mineral balance [7]. Studies in rats fed IP6 showed no significant toxic effects on serum or bone mineral deficiency [8]. Furthermore, the analysis of IP6 effect on mineral status in rats fed for a long time period through a second generation to evaluate possible effects related to a pregnancy and lactation revealed no decrease in mineral bioavailability, with the exception of lower zinc levels in bone [9]. In addition, rats fed an equilibrated purified diet with IP6 showed about 10-fold higher concentrations of zinc in bone compared to the control animal group [6]. It has also been reported that a high IP6-containing diet did not negatively affect rat plasma copper and zinc concentrations [10] and no relation of zinc deficiency with IP6 has been observed in women who ingested vegetarian or meat-based diet with equal IP6 contents."

 

From what I understand, IP6 "prefers" minerals with a higher "valence", which has to do with the atomic structure of the mineral.  The higher the valence, the more IP6 tends to chelate it.  Iron & copper are supposed to be more strongly chelated than calcium & magnesium, with zinc somewhere in the middle.  IP6 also does not bind minerals linked with proteins (like iron from hemoglobin in blood), but only free/labile valent minerals.  From the paper I quote above, it appears even trace minerals are not particularly affected so long as IP6 isn't taken with meals.  

 

1000mg, once a day should be fine.  I actually did take 1000mg/day for a while, 500mg/AM & 500mg/before bed.  From the monograph I linked to above, it looks like some folks are taking 8 grams/day without trouble.  I tend to err on the side of caution though. 

 

 

Edited by Dorian Grey, 31 October 2019 - 06:04 AM.

[Rorororo]

I wanted to do the same (take 500mg upon waking, 500mg before bed) but I figured it would be a problem since I would be taking it along with magnesium.

[Kalliste]

This paper here:

 

https://pdfs.semanti...7740.1572501908

 

goes into the "antinutrient" issues with IP6: 

 

"This strong chelating capacity of IP6 associated with its six reactive phosphate groups has in the past been regarded as responsible for antinutritional side effects of IP6. However, more recent studies have contradicted those opinions by stating that in evaluation of antinutritional effects of IP6 various factors should be considered, such as the ratio of IP6 to overall mineral content of the diet [7]. It has been shown that the antinutritional effect of IP6 could be manifested only when large amounts of IP6 were consumed together with a diet poor in trace elements, but if essential minerals were present in the proper ratio with respect to IP6, there was no modification of mineral balance [7]. Studies in rats fed IP6 showed no significant toxic effects on serum or bone mineral deficiency [8]. Furthermore, the analysis of IP6 effect on mineral status in rats fed for a long time period through a second generation to evaluate possible effects related to a pregnancy and lactation revealed no decrease in mineral bioavailability, with the exception of lower zinc levels in bone [9]. In addition, rats fed an equilibrated purified diet with IP6 showed about 10-fold higher concentrations of zinc in bone compared to the control animal group [6]. It has also been reported that a high IP6-containing diet did not negatively affect rat plasma copper and zinc concentrations [10] and no relation of zinc deficiency with IP6 has been observed in women who ingested vegetarian or meat-based diet with equal IP6 contents."

 

From what I understand, IP6 "prefers" minerals with a higher "valence", which has to do with the atomic structure of the mineral.  The higher the valence, the more IP6 tends to chelate it.  Iron & copper are supposed to be more strongly chelated than calcium & magnesium, with zinc somewhere in the middle.  IP6 also does not bind minerals linked with proteins (like iron from hemoglobin in blood), but only free/labile valent minerals.  From the paper I quote above, it appears even trace minerals are not particularly affected so long as IP6 isn't taken with meals.  

 

1000mg, once a day should be fine.  I actually did take 1000mg/day for a while, 500mg/AM & 500mg/before bed.  From the monograph I linked to above, it looks like some folks are taking 8 grams/day without trouble.  I tend to err on the side of caution though. 

 

Whats your current position on the plain Myo Inositol?

I have a ton of Myo Inositol powder. Usually take 3g empty stomach in the morning. Calm, relaxing feeling.

 

Tried 25g but that gave me powerful diarreah, actually pretty good way to empty the GI system when needed ;-) 

[Dorian Grey]

Don't know a lot about the health effects, but Dr AbulKalam Shamsuddin's (MD PhD) anti-cancer formula "IP6 Gold" is around 2 parts myo-inositol to 1 part IP6.

 

https://www.amazon.c...=dp_kinw_strp_1

 

Inositol also had a clinical trial to prevent lung cancer in smokers. 

 

https://clinicaltria...how/NCT00783705

 

Don't know why they didn't include IP6 with this trial, as this seems key to the anti-cancer effect.  It looks like it worked though...

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC5136333/

 

"Previous preclinical studies and a phase I clinical trial suggested myo-inositol may be a safe and effective lung cancer chemopreventive agent."

 

SHAZAM!  If inositol can help prevent cancer in smokers, I'm there dudes!  

 

My girlfriend & I take a gram of myo-inositol half an hour before bed for sleep (I add 500mg IP6).  Amazing effect.  It doesn't make you drowsy at all, but clears your head of those thought loops that can pester you when you are trying to fall asleep.  Myo-inositol very big with the OCD crowd, so some support for this.  

 

I'm recently retired, & like to stay up late and sleep in.  My gal is still working and is up and about at 5:AM.  The "inositol effect" seems to carry me right through and I can still roll over and get back to sleep after being awakened at dawn.  Like your experience...  Amazing calm.  When I do wake up, I'm bright as a button, so no hangover.  

 

It's funny, a waitress at a pub we frequent was having trouble getting to sleep after working the late shift to get up for college.  We told her about inositol, and just a week later she ran up all excited and thanked us saying it was a miracle cure.  

 

I've never had problems with anxiety, but believe myo-inositol would be worth a try before one goes to the poison pills doctors are prescribing now days.  Nothing "fixes your head" like inositol.  It's amazing this isn't more well known.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 15 November 2019 - 07:49 AM.

[Rorororo]

"IP6 Gold" is around 2 parts myo-inositol to 1 part IP6.

I take straight IP-6 Vitacost brand. No additional inositol added. Do you think it's necessary to add in? I'm taking it for its chelating effects. I also take 2.4 grams of sunflower lecithin so I suppose I'm getting a little inositol from that. Would it be beneficial to take a separate inositol supplement in addition to the above?
Thanks

[Dorian Grey]

I really don't know the dynamics of the myo inositol / inositol hexaphosphate interaction, but I suspect taking myo inositol with IP6 might reduce the body breaking down the IP6 into simpler forms???

 

If my primary objective was cancer prophylaxis, I'd be tempted to utilize the combination therapy (Dr Shamsuddin's protocol), but for simple chelation IP6 alone seems to work well according to what I've read.  I know just 500mg of IP6 turns the palms of my hand noticeably paler within an hour, so it appears to have a substantial effect without the added myo inositol.  

 

I drink substantial amounts of coffee for the xanthine, & caffeine is supposed to deplete inositol so I take myo inositol for sleep at night.  I believe consumption of dietary xanthines inhibit xanthine oxidaise activity, which is known to liberate iron from ferritin; free iron breeding highly destructive hydroxyl radicals.  Dietary xanthines are hard to come by, theobromine in chocolate being the only other substantial source that I know of.  

 

Jeanne Calment, the worlds longest lived human was known for eating a kilo of chocolate per week.  Was theobromine/xanthine her fountain of youth?  I'm doing a study of one.  I'll let you know in 20 years how things worked out.  Hard to argue with anything that reduces hydroxyl radicals though.  Nothing tears through mitochondrial or nuclear DNA like the hydroxyl.  

[pamojja]

I take straight IP-6 Vitacost brand. No additional inositol added. Do you think it's necessary to add in? .. Would it be beneficial to take a separate inositol supplement in addition to the above?

 

My question is the opposite. I do supplement myo-inositol, but whenever I look at the food-list with the highest content of IP-6 at https://en.wikipedia...id#Food_science - where I daily consume almost all of the nuts and seeds with the highest content and therefore have to assume my natural daily intake is at least at 1-2 grams per day already - I would think additional supplementation unneccessary.

 

What's your thought?

[Rorororo]

My question is the opposite. I do supplement myo-inositol, but whenever I look at the food-list with the highest content of IP-6 at https://en.wikipedia...id#Food_science - where I daily consume almost all of the nuts and seeds with the highest content and therefore have to assume my natural daily intake is at least at 1-2 grams per day already - I would think additional supplementation unneccessary.

What's your thought?

From everything that I've read it seems 1-2 grams is the starting point from a therapeutic perspective. I started at 1 gram per day but recently increased to 2 as I tend to eat a lot of red meat. I would think you're fine between the 1 and 2 grams that you're getting from nuts and seeds and you wouldn't need to supplement anything more.

[pamojja]

Thanks for chiming in. Just measured my seeds and nuts this breackfast-muesli, to get a more dependable number:

		gram	IP-6 %				gram	IP-6 %		
Walnut		16	0,1568		Linseed		27	0,7506		
Macadamia	11	0		Cocoa Pow.	26	0		
Coconut		7	0,0252		Pumpkin S.	6	0,258		
Pekan		5	0		Black Seed	4	0		
Brazil		4	0,2536		Chia		3	0,0348		
Almond		4	0,1288		Bl. Sesame	2	0,1072		
								
Totals		47	0,5644				66	1,1506		= 1,715 gram

Therefore including those with IP-6 content not determined, definitely already above 2 g/d.

[Keizo]

Fulvic acid, supposedly has chelating properties. Either way I think it certainly does something for me, mainly blood flow and energy increase taking 20-40 ml day of the 6% pure&fulvic

[Rorororo]

Does anyone know if it's ok to take Vitamin C with IP6? (First thing in morning on empty stomach) As I've said previously I take 3 grams of vitamin C per day... 1k upon waking. Would the vitamin C prevent the IP6 from binding with metals like iron? Or is it just with food that vitamin C helps to increase the absorption of iron?

I just want to be absolutely certain on this...I really don't want to take something that would counteract the effects of something else.

Thanks

Edited by Rorororo, 16 December 2019 - 08:18 PM.

[Dorian Grey]

I wouldn't think there would be anything in Vitamin-C that would damage IP6 (or vice versa), but then I really don't know.  

 

I do know IP6 is absorbed very quickly when taken on an empty stomach with at least 6-8 ounces of plain water.  The palms of my hands go noticeably paler within 15-20 minutes or so.  

 

If it's not too difficult to put 15 minutes between the C & IP6, this might be ideal.  

[Rorororo]

Thanks Dorian. I followed your advice and have been taking it with lots of water, a whole 16.9 fl oz bottle of Poland Spring water. My hands are always slightly red and I don't notice any color changes after taking it. My hands don't become more pale. Maybe I'll try taking it separate from the vitamin C.

[Dorian Grey]

'Tis my custom to tipple a bit in the evening, & the palms of my hands have always been a bit red & blotchy.  I believe this is alcohol related, as I've seen this in others.  

 

When I first started taking IP6, I would take it in the evening, but for some reason, I switched to morning (probably to insure an empty stomach).  I remember being in the shower just after taking my AM dose and noticing my hands had gone pale.  Ran to the window to look at them in the sunlight.  It really was impressive.  

 

It may not be as noticeable if you don't have the party person blotchy red palms.  Don't know whether this is a homocysteine thing, or perhaps nitric oxide, but IP6 seemed to fix it in around 15 minutes.  

Edited by Dorian Grey, 17 December 2019 - 02:49 AM.

[Rorororo]

Good stuff...this means I can take them together!

https://academic.oup...9/2978S/4688143

"Ascorbic acid acts as a common nonheme pool ligand, increasing the absorption of both intrinsic food iron and fortification iron compounds that are soluble in gastric juice (12). It is effective only when eaten with the meal. In one study, 500 mg of ascorbic acid taken with the test meal increased absorption sixfold whereas the same quantity had little effect when consumed 4 and 8 h earlier (13). The mechanism of action appears to be complex. The initial step in the absorption of elemental iron depends on the uptake of soluble ferrous iron by a recently characterized transmembrane transporter, divalent metal transporter 1 (14). Ascorbic acid acts in the lumen of the stomach and duodenum both by reducing ferric food iron to the ferrous state and by preserving its solubility as the luminal pH rises in the duodenum (15)."

[Rorororo]

Just thought I'd let you all know. This morning I took the IP6 away from the vitamin C (40 minutes apart) and got a headache. Weird...

I'll update as I plan to do the same tomorrow.

[Rorororo]

Taking the IP6 with vitamin C is fine. The headache I had yesterday turned out to be weather related. I actually had a slight fever too but it only lasted a few hours. This morning I did the same as yesterday (took them separately) and had no headache. AOR, a Canadian company, actually has vitamin C in their IP6 formulation so I really think it's fine.