48 replies to this topic

[Smith]

I just purchased a popular PURE NMN supplement on Amazon with 200mg per capsule.  I've been taking 400mg per day for about 3 days, and was going to work my way up to 1000mg.

 

Today, I took 600mg and experienced a FULL BLOWN niacin FLUSH that lasted an hour.  It was like I had sunburn all over by body.  This occurred about 2-3 hrs after consuming 600mg.   

 

Has anyone ever experienced this on NMN?  I know this is a common occurrence with Niacin, and it's happened to me in the past when taking too much Niacin.  I've also taken Niacinamide (NAM) in the past at 500mg/day and never experienced flushing, but this is the first time I've ever taken a pure NMN supplement.

 

So can NMN cause flushing, or did I get a bogus product tainted with niacin?

Edited by Smith, 14 November 2019 - 09:12 PM.

[LawrenceW]

No.  I have taken up to 6,800 mg of pure NMN per day.  I would say that you got a bad batch.  Who was the supplier?

[aribadabar]

Agree - NMN or Nam cannot cause a flush. That NMN supplement was actually NA.

Edited by aribadabar, 15 November 2019 - 05:54 PM.

[LawrenceW]

Also, please change your title because NMN did not cause your full blown niacin flush

[Smith]

Well, if thats the case, this is very worrying... They advertise it as PURE NMN, with purity above 99% and manufactured in an FDA approved facility with GMP (Good Manufacturing Processes).  How can one ever know if they are getting legitimate supplements?

 

The supplier is Solensis, and was the #1 selling NMN supplement on Amazon for a while.  This is what they state on their page:

 

• Each capsule contains 200mg of high quality NMN with a purity above 99%.
• Formulated in a FDA-approved facility under GMP certification.

 

After reading through the Amazon reviews, it appears several others have also gotten a niacin flush using this product.  It must have been tainted or fake.

 

Has anyone ran chemical analysis on any of the popular NMN supplements to even know if what we are getting is legit?  I was told to only purchase supplements that have the GMP seal to assure quality.  It would be very easy to replace some (or all) of the NMN with NAM and nobody would be any wiser.

Edited by Smith, 15 November 2019 - 08:01 PM.

[able]

Dr Sinclair recommends to only buy from a "trusted brand", which is difficult in such a new product where no big brands are selling it.

 

His recommendation to buy one with GMP on the label is meaningless.

 

Several brands on amazon have been busted selling fake NMN that has little or no actual NMN, yet they continue selling with no noticable repercussion.  Amazon couldn't care less.

 

Some post test results that seem legit. Look for those.

 

Others post meaningless results from tests that are done in house or have no lab name or details.

Edited by able, 15 November 2019 - 08:10 PM.

[Smith]

Dr Sinclair recommends to only buy from a "trusted brand", which is difficult in such a new product where no big brands are selling it.

 

His recommendation to buy one with GMP on the label is meaningless.

 

Several brands on amazon have been busted selling fake NMN that has little or no actual NMN, yet they continue selling with no noticable repercussion.  Amazon couldn't care less.

 

Some post test results that seem legit. Look for those.

 

Others post meaningless results from tests that are done in house or have no lab name or details.

 

So if most every supplier claims 99% purity, and we cannot trust the GMP labels, do we have to chemically test every batch?  Does anyone have a known good supplier, who's product has been chemically tested by a 3rd party?

 

After my experience, I wouldn't be surprised if there were many other fake NMN supplements on the market.  In fact, if these companies are willing to fake NMN, one has to wonder what else they are willing to fake in order to cut corners and make more profit.

Edited by Smith, 15 November 2019 - 09:31 PM.

[MikeDC]

I don’t believe you can sell NMN at $50 per month without losing money. The legit NMN from China sells for $170 per month at 300mg per day dose.

[Smith]

I don’t believe you can sell NMN at $50 per month without losing money. The legit NMN from China sells for $170 per month at 300mg per day dose.

 

They were selling one bottle for $50.  There are dozens of other suppliers on Amazon selling NMN at or around that price.

 

Is there a price point I should be aiming for to ensure the product is legitimate?

Edited by Smith, 15 November 2019 - 09:38 PM.

[LawrenceW]

I don’t believe you can sell NMN at $50 per month without losing money. The legit NMN from China sells for $170 per month at 300mg per day dose.

 

Hey Mike (Mr. Chromadex) DC.

 

300 mg per day is 9 grams per month is enough for 111 people per month times $170 is $18,888 per KG.  What are you smoking?

[aribadabar]

When it comes to supplements, GMP means that  the product is encapsulated and the container sealed in an established/industry-approved manner/process. It has nothing to do with the purity/authenticity of the said ingredients.

The GMP facility in this case is just the packager, not the manufacturer, of the compound.

 

and we cannot trust the GMP labels

 

Edited by aribadabar, 15 November 2019 - 09:51 PM.

[Smith]

When it comes to supplements, GMP means that  the product is encapsulated and the container sealed in an established/industry-approved manner/process. It has nothing to do with the purity/authenticity of the said ingredients.

The GMP facility in this case is just the packager, not the manufacturer, of the compound.

 

Thank You, makes sense.  So is there no way a consumer can be sure they are receiving a legitimate product w/o resorting to 3rd party chemical analysis?

[MikeDC]

Hey Mike (Mr. Chromadex) DC.

300 mg per day is 9 grams per month is enough for 111 people per month times $170 is $18,888 per KG. What are you smoking?

This one sells for $200 per month in China.
https://shop.m.jd.com/?shopId=871386

[aribadabar]

Thank You, makes sense.  So is there no way a consumer can be sure they are receiving a legitimate product w/o resorting to 3rd party chemical analysis?

 

Absent buying it from a well-established company/brand that won't put its reputation at risk selling unverified product ( which, for NMN, has no big players yet) , I am afraid third-party HPLC and MS analyses are our only ways to conclusively confirm purity and authenticity.

That being said, ABN and ProHealth seem reputable NMN suppliers.

[aaaaaaal]

Best Naturals have started selling NMN. I think they are a trusted brand?

 

 

[Linux]

The question is, why aren't reputable brands like NOW FOODS, Jarrow, Natrol or LEF offering NMN supplements?

Are they too expensive, the margins too low?

Edited by Linux, 17 November 2019 - 09:51 AM.

[MikeDC]

Edited

Edited by MikeDC, 17 November 2019 - 12:49 PM.

[Tom Andre F. (ex shinobi)]

as others its not NMN but Pure nicotinic acid you got... Much cheaper sold to them by a random chinese suppliers. Its quite common..

 

I have a very reliable supplier for NMN but Im really sad its forbiden for me to sell it on my website due to french law wich is even more strict than USA ones.. they only allow vitamins that are known before 1997

[NaHanyate]

David Sinclair mentioned in a YouTube interview that I saw recently that unless NMN is stored in a refrigerator, it will degrade to Niacin.

[MikeDC]

David Sinclair mentioned in a YouTube interview that I saw recently that unless NMN is stored in a refrigerator, it will degrade to Niacin.

NMN will degrade to Nicotinamide, not Niacin at room temperature. Sinclair twitted this again recently. The fake products people bought may have started as NMN and ended up as NAM.

[Linux]

NMN will degrade to Nicotinamide, not Niacin at room temperature. Sinclair twitted this again recently. The fake products people bought may have started as NMN and ended up as NAM.

 

It´s easy to store it in a freezer though. How do you manage that the labile molecule NR hydrochloride (Niagen) degrades to nicotinamide in plasma? 

[Turnbuckle]

It´s easy to store it in a freezer though. How do you manage that the labile molecule NR hydrochloride (Niagen) degrades to nicotinamide in plasma? 

 

 

These expensive supplements are being sold with the storyline that they are one step closer to NAD+. But so what? The body is quite capable of making NAD+ out of nicotinamide and ribose, and these are dirt cheap. So why spend all the extra money for a small amount of NR or NMN that is going to break down either in storage or in your digestive tract?

[Fredrik]

The NAMPT enzyme is downregulated with aging so the salvage pathway won´t be able to convert nicotinamide to NAD as efficiently. Bypassing NAMPT for NAD+ synthesis with precursors NMN or NR is an strategy to restore cellular NAD+.

 

"Since Nam is a substrate for the NAMPT enzyme its impact on the NAD + synthesis is limited by NAMPT activity. Therefore, administration of Nam under conditions where the NAMPT enzyme is inhibited or dysfunctional will not lead to increased NAD + synthesis by the salvage pathway.

 

To even more efficiently facilitate NAD + synthesis, by bypassing the rate-limiting step in the salvage pathway, one can administer NMN that will directly feed into the one step enzymatic generation of NAD + via NMNAT. There are several reports showing that intraperitoneal administration of NMN can significantly increase brain tissue NAD + levels within 15 min post-injection [31] [79].

 

This suggests that there is an active transport of NMN or its metabolites into the intracellular compartments, where it is converted to NAD + . However, the mechanisms of NMN transport across the BBB or cellular and mitochondrial membranes need to be determined."

 

AND

 

"NMN and NR demonstrated superior pharmacokinetics when compared to Nam, primarily due to involvement of active transport mechanisms that allow for better control of the translocation process of these compounds from plasma into intracellular compartments. As a result, there is more effective intracellular accumulation of NMN and its conversion to NAD + ."

 

https://archive.hshs...e=1&isAllowed=y

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 11:35 AM.

[Turnbuckle]

 

 

"NMN and NR demonstrated superior pharmacokinetics when compared to Nam, primarily due to involvement of active transport mechanisms that allow for better control of the translocation process of these compounds from plasma into intracellular compartments. As a result, there is more effective intracellular accumulation of NMN and its conversion to NAD + ."

 

https://archive.hshs...e=1&isAllowed=y

 

 

 

When researchers are also selling a product, you have to look carefully at the comparisons they make. They are not comparing NMN and NR to Nam+ribose, only to Nam. Ribose is scarce in the body, and thus must also be supplemented. As far as I can tell from the research on NR, it appears to be broken down before it gets to cells, and thus Nam+ribose should be equivalent for an equivalent dose, and faster acting as well.

[Fredrik]

When researchers are also selling a product, you have to look carefully at the comparisons they make. They are not comparing NMN and NR to Nam+ribose, only to Nam.

 

The Ph.D. in neuroscience Nina Klimova who wrote the dissertation isn´t selling anything. 

 

I´m sure the researcher and NR salesman Dr Brenner is in the reference list somewhere in that paper but the relevant quotes here on NR and NMN comes from researchers that aren´t selling anything.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 12:31 PM.

[Fredrik]

As far as I can tell from the research on NR, it appears to be broken down before it gets to cells, and thus Nam+ribose should be equivalent for an equivalent dose, and faster acting as well.

 

This is pure speculation. You have no idea if NAM + ribose is equivalent to NR. This needs to be studied before we can draw any conclusions.

[Turnbuckle]

The Ph.D. in neuroscience Nina Klimova who wrote the dissertation isn´t selling anything. 

 

I´m sure the researcher and NR salesman Dr Brenner is in the reference list somewhere in that paper but the relevant quotes here on NR and NMN comes from researchers that aren´t selling anything.

 

 

I'm speaking of those selling NR, in particular, who compare NR to Nam but not to Nam+ribose. If a comparison of NR and/or NMN is made to Nam+ribose in Kimova's paper, can you point it out?

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 December 2019 - 12:41 PM.

[Fredrik]

I'm speaking of those selling NR, in particular, who compare NR to Nam but not to Nam+ribose. If a comparison of NR and/or NMN is made to Nam+ribose in Kimova's paper, can you point it out?

 

No. It is you who is making claims about Nam + ribose being equivalent to NR/NMN. YOU show us the papers supporting that idea. It is not up to me to disprove your theories. It is your job to provide evidence for your theory.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 December 2019 - 01:07 PM.

[Turnbuckle]

No. It is you who is making claims about Nam + ribose being equivalent to NR/NMN. YOU show us the papers supporting that idea. It is not up to me to disprove your theories. It is your job to provide evidence for your theory.

 

 

I asked you to point out where that comparison was made in your paper, and you cannot because there is no comparison. No one is making the comparison because there is no money in it. I have tried NR and NMN and gotten nothing from them, however, I got very strong results from 2 grams each of Nam+ribose. Which is to be expected, as that would be like taking 4 grams of NR. 

 

Fig. 5b of Brenner's paper tells the story. The average NAD+ produced by NR and Nam was the same within the error bars. And given that the paper speaks of "mole equivalent doses of Nam," that suggest the researchers used twice as much NR as Nam, as the molar weight of NR (255.2) is roughly twice that of Nam (122.1).

Edited by Turnbuckle, 26 December 2019 - 01:50 PM.

[MikeDC]

It´s easy to store it in a freezer though. How do you manage that the labile molecule NR hydrochloride (Niagen) degrades to nicotinamide in plasma?

It is easy to store NMN in a freezer after it is delivered. Do you know how long your NMN is stored somewhere before you get it?
According to liu’s paper, NMN is less stable than NR in the plasma.