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Testosterone level of 305

testosterone low t

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#31 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 08:21 PM

How much do I risk with an 8-week trial anyway.

 

All you've got to lose is your balls.  

 

Seriously, if you start TRT, you will get testicular atrophy, and some of that probably won't reverse when you come off without some sort of medical intervention, which given where you're at may or may not be totally successful.  

 

If having testicles the size of raisins (not kidding about this) doesn't bother you and you are prepared to stick with TRT for the remainder of your life then you can hit whatever level of testosterone that your doctor will continue to write you scripts for. So you can be successful with TRT, but there will be tradeoffs.



#32 experimenting

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 09:44 PM

All you've got to lose is your balls.

Seriously, if you start TRT, you will get testicular atrophy, and some of that probably won't reverse when you come off without some sort of medical intervention, which given where you're at may or may not be totally successful.

If having testicles the size of raisins (not kidding about this) doesn't bother you and you are prepared to stick with TRT for the remainder of your life then you can hit whatever level of testosterone that your doctor will continue to write you scripts for. So you can be successful with TRT, but there will be tradeoffs.


This is even on a single trial?

What are alternatives? Note again, I fall in the frank hypogonadism territory. And have just never felt “good”.

LLLT? I just don’t think supplements will get me there.

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#33 experimenting

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 10:05 PM

It’s tough, doc just tells me not to worry about it too much, but I see so much caution expressed here.

#34 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 10:51 PM

This is even on a single trial?

What are alternatives? Note again, I fall in the frank hypogonadism territory. And have just never felt “good”.

LLLT? I just don’t think supplements will get me there.

 

@Rocket is the go to guy on these issues.  If you want to increase endogeneous testosterone then Clomid I think is the drug of choice.  I know you commented that it's a horrible drug - what are the issues that concern you the most?

 

Are you doing everything else?  What's your weight like? Carrying extra fat? Getting exercise (particularly strength building exercise)?  Sleep? Eating a high fat diet? Eating a lot of soy? 

 

There are some supplements that might help if those other things are in line (I'm thinking boron, ginger, DHEA off the top of my head), but clearly they aren't going to get you to 900.  Maybe you could get to something close to 400?  I don't know.

 

How many times have you had your level checked? It can vary quite a bit from day to day. If you have issues with weight or diet, maybe get that taken care of and perhaps try some of the supplements that might help, then go back and get retested.  This isn't something you have to fix right at this moment. Take some time and make the best decision you can.

 

I know that your doc thinks this is no big deal. He's in the business of writing scripts and TRT is the standard for treating low testosterone.  Clomid is off label as is anything else he might try.  Docs don't like to expose themselves, even if that means giving you a less that optimal solution.

 

Hopefully Rocket will chime back in. He has a lot of experience in this area.



#35 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:35 AM

@Rocket is the go to guy on these issues. If you want to increase endogeneous testosterone then Clomid I think is the drug of choice. I know you commented that it's a horrible drug - what are the issues that concern you the most?

Are you doing everything else? What's your weight like? Carrying extra fat? Getting exercise (particularly strength building exercise)? Sleep? Eating a high fat diet? Eating a lot of soy?

There are some supplements that might help if those other things are in line (I'm thinking boron, ginger, DHEA off the top of my head), but clearly they aren't going to get you to 900. Maybe you could get to something close to 400? I don't know.

How many times have you had your level checked? It can vary quite a bit from day to day. If you have issues with weight or diet, maybe get that taken care of and perhaps try some of the supplements that might help, then go back and get retested. This isn't something you have to fix right at this moment. Take some time and make the best decision you can.

I know that your doc thinks this is no big deal. He's in the business of writing scripts and TRT is the standard for treating low testosterone. Clomid is off label as is anything else he might try. Docs don't like to expose themselves, even if that means giving you a less that optimal solution.

Hopefully Rocket will chime back in. He has a lot of experience in this area.


Clomid has horrible emotional side effects. It’s a SERM, messes up your brain. Emotional issues, estrogen issues, liver issues, all on this forum actually.

You’re against TRT, I get there are sides. But I bet you haven’t experienced what it’s like to be a low T male. I can’t lose fat, no matter how hard I try. My body just doesn’t respond to exercise and dieting like yours does (I assume). Note all other hormones are normal. I don’t even look like a man.

You don’t understand what it’s like not to have a libido, etc.

I’ve tested 8 times maybe, highest level was 408. It’s horrible.

#36 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:52 AM

The hell you can't lose fat.  A women that puts her mind to it will lose fat and your testosterone is vastly higher than theirs.  Weight loss is a matter of calories in and calories burned.   Lower T will make it harder to build lean muscle mass, but if you cut say 30% of your calorie intake you'll damn sure lose weight.

 

At 40 my T was around 400.  I was 40 lbs over weight and had a horrible diet.  I did transdermal T to the point my balls started to shrink and then told myself no way in hell am I going down this path. 

 

I put myself on a diet.  Lost those 40 extra pounds (my BMI is 24 today). Started eating right and exercising, Did some reasonable weight training. Started the supplements mentioned above.  That got me into the 550 - 565 range and I actually still have a pair between my legs.  Would I like it to be higher? Yeah, a bit. But I'm not going to watch my balls shrink to the size of raisins.  I'd much rather try a course of clomid than ever consider TRT again.  And at 55 T in the range of 550 isn't the end of the world.

 

To be frank, I don't know you so it doesn't matter to me personally whether you do TRT or not.  I'm just making you aware of what is going to happen if you go down that path.

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 February 2020 - 12:54 AM.


#37 Rocket

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:55 AM

Clomid is a horrible drug.

Clomid has been a great medicine for me in the past with no side effects. Not everyone suffers from sides.

Also I wanted to come back here and say if someone has gyno and thinks injecting testosterone will stop it or reverse it, it WILL NOT. It can make it much worse!

T injections invariably lead to higher E by conversion in the body. TRT docs should be open to prescribing anti E drugs but seem rather adverse to it for some dumb reason.

Gyno can only be treated (chemically speaking) by an anti estrogen. Adex or letro are good. Lack of T doesn't cause gyno. If it isn't caused by DNA then its caused by too much E.

Carrying too much body fat can cause gyno. If it were lack of T then every male toddler would have gyno.

Great post DB Coop! Some men would be happy with a T level of 350 let alone 550!

Exogenous T causes problems if not kept under control by anti estrogen and by regular blood donations. Hormones are not joke and not to be taken lightly.

Regular injections of 100mg T every week is also not good for the prostate, aka bpph. My 2 cents is everyone on TRT should be on either proscar or avodart in some amount.

I would be trying everything I can to remain natural. Hell even a micro dose of triptorelin is worth a try if you are very careful.

Edited by Rocket, 20 February 2020 - 01:05 AM.


#38 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 12:58 AM

Rocket -

 

See my post above.  If I wanted to tack another 100 points on my T level (get it to the mid 600s) would Clomid be the best option or are there other routes to get that sort of improvement.

 

 



#39 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:10 AM

The hell you can't lose fat. A women that puts her mind to it will lose fat and your testosterone is vastly higher than theirs. Weight loss is a matter of calories in and calories burned. Lower T will make it harder to build lean muscle mass, but if you cut say 30% of your calorie intake you'll damn sure lose weight.

At 40 my T was around 400. I was 40 lbs over weight and had a horrible diet. I did transdermal T to the point my balls started to shrink and then told myself no way in hell am I going down this path.

I put myself on a diet. Lost those 40 extra pounds (my BMI is 24 today). Started eating right and exercising, Did some reasonable weight training. Started the supplements mentioned above. That got me into the 550 - 565 range and I actually still have a pair between my legs. Would I like it to be higher? Yeah, a bit. But I'm not going to watch my balls shrink to the size of raisins. I'd much rather try a course of clomid than ever consider TRT again. And at 55 T in the range of 550 isn't the end of the world.

To be frank, I don't know you so it doesn't matter to me personally whether you do TRT or not. I'm just making you aware of what is going to happen if you go down that path.


You were down at 400 with a horrible lifestyle.

I maxed at 400 throwing EVERYTHING at the problem.

I’m not saying I can’t lose weight but I’ll always be skinny fat. My super low T means I’ll never have a masculine body. It’s either skinny or chubby.

Look, I know there are risks. I know you and rocket seem to be against it but I’m running up against a horrible wall here.
I have no libido, my brain is fogged, life sucks like this.

#40 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:35 AM

BTW - when I was at my lowest level (380ish) I'd still have f#!$ed a rattlesnake if I could have held it's mouth open.  Libido has less to do with T level than you might suspect.  Most of your libido is in your head. 

 

If you're depressed, you're going to have low libido.  And yes, low T can cause depression.  On the other hand, it's probably true that depression can cause declining T levels.  Physiology and psychology are intimately related in a circular fashion.

 

 

 


Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 February 2020 - 01:36 AM.


#41 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:40 AM

BTW - when I was at my lowest level (380ish) I'd still have f#!$ed a rattlesnake if I could have held it's mouth open. Libido has less to do with T level than you might suspect. Most of your libido is in your head.

If you're depressed, you're going to have low libido. And yes, low T can cause depression. On the other hand, it's probably true that depression can cause declining T levels. Physiology and psychology are intimately related in a circular fashion.


I know, I know. I’ve also had serious body comp issues and such, so I write these off to T levels. But there may be a psych component.

I’ve just never felt like a man. Always been skinny fat (6 ft 130 lbs at one point Without visible abs) no libido, just haven’t viewed women sexually. Random T boosting supps which work temporarily will make me feel how I think I ought to. It sucks man, really does.

If I give T a try am I really going to ruin my life on a short trial?

#42 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:18 AM

As far as ruining your life - you may set yourself up for a situation where if you don't like the sides that you won't easily be able to stop TRT and maintain even the levels you have now.  That's why you're hearing the opposition from Rocket and myself.

 

Look, if you've honestly tried everything then I guess it's not the end of the world.  I just was not comfortable potentially getting into a situation where I was committed to TRT for life.  I tried other things and had some success and was glad I didn't have to make that choice.  I'll be honest with you, it was just freakish as I was on the transdermal TRT to feel my testicles shrink week by week.  Psychologically I couldn't take it.  It might not be logical, but it made me feel less manly, but maybe that's just my personal hangup.

 

 

 

 



#43 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 03:25 AM

As far as ruining your life - you may set yourself up for a situation where if you don't like the sides that you won't easily be able to stop TRT and maintain even the levels you have now. That's why you're hearing the opposition from Rocket and myself.

Look, if you've honestly tried everything then I guess it's not the end of the world. I just was not comfortable potentially getting into a situation where I was committed to TRT for life. I tried other things and had some success and was glad I didn't have to make that choice. I'll be honest with you, it was just freakish as I was on the transdermal TRT to feel my testicles shrink week by week. Psychologically I couldn't take it. It might not be logical, but it made me feel less manly, but maybe that's just my personal hangup.


I’m the guy who couldn’t get it up when a girl texted him at 2am. I’d do anything to change the game.

#44 gamesguru

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:15 PM

One may naturally seek to explain ED with low T levels, but ED usually has other causes. ED is almost always caused by low blood flow to the penis.

 

How old are you?  Is there any history of heart disease or circulatory disease in your family?



#45 poonja

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:11 PM

Years ago I consulted with Dr. Shippen, one of the pioneers in working with hypogonadism.  I was in my late 40's I believe.  He put me on HCG in order to see if I could still make my own T.  It worked well with no side effects.  Got me over 600.


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#46 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 02:55 PM

Years ago I consulted with Dr. Shippen, one of the pioneers in working with hypogonadism. I was in my late 40's I believe. He put me on HCG in order to see if I could still make my own T. It worked well with no side effects. Got me over 600.


What subjective effects did you notice?

#47 Blu

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 07:33 PM

As far as ruining your life - you may set yourself up for a situation where if you don't like the sides that you won't easily be able to stop TRT and maintain even the levels you have now.  That's why you're hearing the opposition from Rocket and myself.

 

Look, if you've honestly tried everything then I guess it's not the end of the world.  I just was not comfortable potentially getting into a situation where I was committed to TRT for life.  I tried other things and had some success and was glad I didn't have to make that choice.  I'll be honest with you, it was just freakish as I was on the transdermal TRT to feel my testicles shrink week by week.  Psychologically I couldn't take it.  It might not be logical, but it made me feel less manly, but maybe that's just my personal hangup.

 

Let me chime in about this. Today there is a growing number of andrologist prescribing HCG along testosterone in order to avoid testicle shrinking. This can give several benefits. A psychological one, as in your example. A health one, because keeping testicles trophic is closer to a natural state. And another important benefit, that is, some men on TRT with HCG are able to stop it for a while and restart endogenous T production - enough to knock up their wifes.

 

If a person wants to go by the TRT route, HCG is a must.



#48 gamesguru

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:49 PM

hCG is another chemical, often more rare and expensive to find than T.

 

not as effective, but there are natural stacks to boost test.



#49 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 09:54 PM

Let's also not forget that there are things that depress T, and if you're doing them you should probably stop.

 

Opioid use depresses T levels.  Benzo use may as well.  Soy phytoestrogens may lower T (I'm not convinced on this one).  Etc., etc.   If you're fighting low T levels you should look at what you're eating, what medications you're taking, and any supplements to see if any are implicated in lowering testosterone. 

 

 



#50 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:24 PM

Let's also not forget that there are things that depress T, and if you're doing them you should probably stop.

Opioid use depresses T levels. Benzo use may as well. Soy phytoestrogens may lower T (I'm not convinced on this one). Etc., etc. If you're fighting low T levels you should look at what you're eating, what medications you're taking, and any supplements to see if any are implicated in lowering testosterone.


I’ve even lifelong low, irrespective of diet/habits. 408 high print at age 25.

HCG, is this concurrent to T, or is it cycled?

I’ve also read that gels are less damaging, because the immediate dose is lower so doesn’t ruin hpta signaling.
I also already have underdeveloped genitalia. Klinefelter sundrome maybe?

#51 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 10:46 PM

I don't doubt that, but I've seen people put on meds in their teens that are still on them in their 30s.  Particularly SSRIs, SNRIs, etc.  These drugs are know to decrease T levels.  
 
Read here - The six most widely used selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors decrease androgens and increase estrogens in the H295R cell line

 

Some people don't consider these meds because "they've been on them forever and they've never caused any problems".  Of course, if you're put on an SSRI in your teens when puberty starts to kick in you might not figure out that your T is low for a number of years and never make the connection.  BTW - it's very likely that those are not the only six SSRIs that decrease testosterone levels.  They were just the six that they looked at.

 

So, taking any drugs on a long term basis?  Seems like everyone in the Western world (or at least the US) are put on some medication by their teens, particularly if you're middle class or above.

 

 

 

 



#52 experimenting

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 11:34 PM

I don't doubt that, but I've seen people put on meds in their teens that are still on them in their 30s. Particularly SSRIs, SNRIs, etc. These drugs are know to decrease T levels.

Read here - The six most widely used selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors decrease androgens and increase estrogens in the H295R cell line

Some people don't consider these meds because "they've been on them forever and they've never caused any problems". Of course, if you're put on an SSRI in your teens when puberty starts to kick in you might not figure out that your T is low for a number of years and never make the connection. BTW - it's very likely that those are not the only six SSRIs that decrease testosterone levels. They were just the six that they looked at.

So, taking any drugs on a long term basis? Seems like everyone in the Western world (or at least the US) are put on some medication by their teens, particularly if you're middle class or above.


Zero meds. Zero drugs. Little booze. I’ve always maximized what little firepower my body has.

#53 experimenting

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 12:16 AM

https://www.mayoclin...es/syc-20353949

Matches most of my symptoms, crazily enough...possibly the only thing I’ve ever seen that does seem to be a match.

#54 Rocket

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 01:00 AM

I’ve even lifelong low, irrespective of diet/habits. 408 high print at age 25.

HCG, is this concurrent to T, or is it cycled?

I’ve also read that gels are less damaging, because the immediate dose is lower so doesn’t ruin hpta signaling.
I also already have underdeveloped genitalia. Klinefelter sundrome maybe?

Gels kind of sort of mimic the bodies production of T because its a small dose every day instead of 100mg blasted into your body at once. The only benefit is it may be (key word MAY) be better for your prostate and your red blood cell count may not rise as much on injections.

But infertility will still be there as well as you will be shutting down your bodies currently functioning testicles and they will shrink to raisins. You will need to have gel on hand every day for life.

I don't know your age but its one thing to be 70 and on medication for life versus 45 and on mess for life.

The US government is really cracking down on T users and I hear people now need to sign documents that they acknowledge T is addictive and they will not abuse it. Yes tests right, the government has said in their infinite wisdom that testosterone is addictive!! Pretty soon you will need to go to a doctor every week for your T instead of being able to keepmit at home and administer it yourself. That time will be coming!

Edited by Rocket, 21 February 2020 - 01:06 AM.


#55 experimenting

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 01:10 AM

Gels kind of sort of mimic the bodies production of T because its a small dose every day instead of 100mg blasted into your body at once. The only benefit is it may be (key word MAY) be better for your prostate and your red blood cell count may not rise as much on injections.

But infertility will still be there as well as you will be shutting down your bodies currently functioning testicles and they will shrink to raisins. You will need to have gel on hand every day for life.

I don't know your age but its one thing to be 70 and on medication for life versus 45 and on mess for life.

The US government is really cracking down on T users and I hear people now need to sign documents that they acknowledge T is addictive and they will not abuse it. Yes tests right, the government has said in their infinite wisdom that testosterone is addictive!! Pretty soon you will need to go to a doctor every week for your T instead of being able to keepmit at home and administer it yourself. That time will be coming!


I may well already be infertile or close to it...won’t get into details but you can have a guess as to why I might think this.

Like I said I’ve had horrible issues for a long time-and having done a lot of reading now, some type of hypogonadism really fits me. I’m weirdly lanky, and very tall (6’2’’) when nobody in my family ever got over 6, except maybe my dad who I believe exhibited untreated symptoms like mine...

#56 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 01:50 AM

https://www.mayoclin...es/syc-20353949

Matches most of my symptoms, crazily enough...possibly the only thing I’ve ever seen that does seem to be a match.

 

If you think that's a possibility you should get the genetic testing done as I think that would potentially have some impact on your treatment.

 

In fact, I would support the general principle of finding out why you have low T at 30 rather than just throwing TRT at it. 

 

If you have Klinefelter Syndrome it may well be that TRT is the best option, but it would be nice to know that this is the underlying cause rather than it being something that might be addressed through some other route.



#57 experimenting

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 02:05 AM

If you think that's a possibility you should get the genetic testing done as I think that would potentially have some impact on your treatment.

In fact, I would support the general principle of finding out why you have low T at 30 rather than just throwing TRT at it.

If you have Klinefelter Syndrome it may well be that TRT is the best option, but it would be nice to know that this is the underlying cause rather than it being something that might be addressed through some other route.


Absolutely, I’m going to get a hypogonadotrophic gene panel ASAP. For this and anything related though, TRT is the only indicated treatment.

I’m still wondering just how risky even a 2 week trial of TRT would be.

#58 Daniel Cooper

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 02:16 AM

2 weeks? Probably not risky at all if you're doing transdermal gel.  Also might not be long enough to really assay the results.  There's a pretty good change you'll get a placebo effect that early on that will be difficult to separate from any real effect.

 

I really do like the idea of figuring out why your testosterone is 305 at 30 yo rather that just hopping on TRT.  It shouldn't be that low at that age and your doctor should have some idea of what's going on beyond shrugging his shoulders and saying "Some people just have low testosterone".

 

 



#59 experimenting

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 02:27 AM

2 weeks? Probably not risky at all if you're doing transdermal gel.  Also might not be long enough to really assay the results.  There's a pretty good change you'll get a placebo effect that early on that will be difficult to separate from any real effect.

 

I really do like the idea of figuring out why your testosterone is 305 at 30 yo rather that just hopping on TRT.  It shouldn't be that low at that age and your doctor should have some idea of what's going on beyond shrugging his shoulders and saying "Some people just have low testosterone".

 

 

Well, let's see what happens. When you have no libido, if it were to suddenly happen, I doubt you could just dismiss that as placebo but we shall see. 

 

I like the idea too. 3 docs said 305 was normal, or "whatever some people are just low" (it's <3rd percentile for my age, so by definition is not normal). The 4th (where I got prescription) was associated with a T clinic, so obviously his response was 'LOL TAKE TESTOSTERONE'. So nobody's any help.

 

It's America, nobody's going to help you, you're responsible for yourself. Think all that's left really is to go down the genetic route. Like I said before, I've now tested 4 times over a period of 5 years, high print 408, most recents 305 and 343. This is across a spectrum of diets and lifestyles, and there has been no consistent background medication or supplementation. So I think fairly clear something genetic is going on. 

 

I wish I knew more about SNPs and such; I'm currently researching whether using raw SNP data (from 23andme data dump) might shed some light on the issue. I don't understand what this stuff means, but I did find at least one SNP associated with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. But I don't understand what finding an SNP means. 

 

rs28933074 I am TT

 

SNPedia lists alleles T>C, whatever that notation means.


Edited by experimenting, 21 February 2020 - 02:28 AM.


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#60 experimenting

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Posted 21 February 2020 - 02:49 AM

I just want to reiterate.

 

LH, FSH, E2, FREE T all normal or within normal ranges as defined by the lab.

 

SEX HORM.BIND.GLOB. 29 10-57 nmol/L

FREE TESTOSTERONE 69.67 30. pg/mL

LH 5.2 1.7-8.6 mIU/mL

FSH 4.7 1.5-12.4 mIU/mL

ESTRADIOL 18.44 7.02-49.06 pg/mL

 

Might be related to the vitamin D and Vitamin K I take (7k iu and the LEF K mix), I know these stabilize hormones. I really can't stop taking d3, it's what gives me some semblance of a libido, energy, and vitality, I turn into a chubby emotional loser off it (worse than I am now) and I need K to avoid side effects. 

 

I suspect the d3 is raising my numbers out of horrible territory into just on the border. 







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