70 replies to this topic

[scottl]

I'm not saying its something to explicitly avoid, or that it can't provide some limited benefit, but I don't think endogenous antioxidants are going to do anything dramatic for us, especially with regard to max LS (the holy grail).

There is more to life then just maximum life extension i.e. disease prevention and there was just some abstract...perhaps M & M or avant on the benefits of antioxidants....and of course pablo is right about vit c JMHO

[Grail]

Nice work Funk.
So you cap your ALCAR and RLA? Can you take these in powdered form?

Dang...Relentless is sold out of Ortho-Core again...

[syr_]

Nice work Funk.
So you cap your ALCAR and RLA? Can you take these in powdered form?

I take powdered alcar. 1 teaspoon is about 3g.

[Grail]

Thanks for the info syr. Do you stir it in with water, or take it straight? (if so, how does it taste?)

[syr_]

In water. Tastes salty and a bit bitter. I DONT like the taste. I take lower doses (~1g to be able to stand a glass of it).

[stellar]

Try dropping a tab of stevia in there, that should improve the taste tremendously.

[doug123]

Nice work Funk.
So you cap your ALCAR and RLA? Can you take these in powdered form?

If you don't like encapsulation machines, there are other easy ways to encapsualte. It would take you literally one minute to encapsulate ALCAR and R-LA if you do it right:

Check this:
http://www.imminst.o...=198&t=10757&s=

[doug123]

$155 - Total monthly cost

That's not quite a poor man's stack, dude.

[U_N]

This is the middle-class counterpart to Shepard's thread. Here we go...

It looks great.

Thank you for posting with prices.

[Grail]

Are there benefits to capping rather than just taking the powder?

[doug123]

Nope. It just tastes disgusting...most of that stuff. And capping manually (ie with your bare hands) is quite practical if you are just capping one or two things a day.

Also you can save TONS of cash, and be able to afford the cutting edge stuff.

[FunkOdyssey]

Hey Funk, why so much taurine? Are you treating a specific condition?

Yes, I'm trying to treat aging (prevention of glycation and cross-linked proteins).

Acta Physiol Scand. 2004 Jul;181(3):297-303. 

    Stimulation of glucose utilization and inhibition of protein glycation and AGE products by taurine.

    Nandhini AT, Thirunavukkarasu V, Anuradha CV.

    Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, Annamalai University, Tamil Nadu, India.

    AIM: Pathological effects of the process of non-enzymatic glycation of proteins are reflected in chronic complications of diabetes mellitus. We investigated the antiglycating effect of taurine in high fructose fed rats in vivo and the inhibiting potency of taurine in the process of in vitro glycation. Additionally, we investigated whether taurine enhances glucose utilization in the rat diaphragm. METHODS: Rats fed a high fructose diet (60% total calories) were provided 2% taurine solution for 30 days. The effects of taurine on plasma glucose, fructosamine, protein glycation and glycosylated haemoglobin in high fructose rats were determined. For in vitro glycation a mixture of 25 mm glucose and 25 mm fructose was used as glycating agent, bovine serum albumin as the model protein and taurine as the inhibitor. Incubations were carried out in a constant temperature bath at 37 degrees C for 3-30 days. Amadori products and advanced glycation end products (AGEs) formed were measured. In vitro utilization of glucose was carried out in the rat diaphragm in the presence and absence of insulin in which taurine was used as an additive. RESULTS: The contents of glucose, glycated protein, glycosylated haemoglobin and fructosamine were significantly lowered by taurine treatment to high fructose rats. Taurine prevented in vitro glycation and the accumulation of AGEs. Furthermore, taurine enhanced glucose utilization in the rat diaphragm. This effect was additive to that of insulin and did not interfere with the action of insulin. CONCLUSIONS: These results underline the potential use of taurine as a therapeutic supplement for the prevention of diabetic pathology.
    PMID: 16112507 [PubMed - in process]

J Diabetes Complications. 2005 Sep-Oct;19(5):305-11. 

    Taurine prevents fructose-diet induced collagen abnormalities in rat skin.

    Nandhini TA, Thirunavukkarasu V, Ravichandran MK, Anuradha CV.

    Department of Biochemistry, Faculty of Science, Annamalai University, Annamalai Nagar 608002, India.

    OBJECTIVE: The aim of the study is to investigate the effect of taurine administration on the content and characteristics of skin collagen in high-fructose-fed rats. RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: Adult male Wistar rats were divided into four groups of six each: a control group (CON) and a taurine-supplemented control group (CON+TAU), a high fructose diet-fed group (FRU), and a taurine supplemented fructose diet-fed group (FRU+TAU). After 30 days, collagen was isolated from the skin, and its physicochemical properties were studied. RESULTS: Fructose administration caused an accumulation of collagen and extensive cross-linking. This was evidenced by increases in glycation, fluorescence, and peroxidation in collagen samples. The physicochemical properties of collagen, like shrinkage temperature, aldehyde content, solubility pattern, and susceptibility to denaturing agents, were altered in the fructose-fed rats. The sodium dodecyl sulphate-polyacrylamide gel electrophoretic (SDS-PAGE) pattern of collagen from fructose-fed rats showed and elevated beta component of Type I collagen. Simultaneous administration of taurine alleviated these changes. CONCLUSION: The positive influence of taurine on both collagen content and its properties suggests a potential mechanism for the ability of taurine to delay diabetic complications.


    PMID: 15196090 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Clin Chim Acta. 2006 Apr;366(1-2):190-5. Epub 2005 Dec 1.  Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Effect of lipid peroxides and antioxidants on glycation of hemoglobin: an in vitro study on human erythrocytes.

    Selvaraj N, Bobby Z, Sathiyapriya V.

    Department of Biochemistry, Jawaharlal Institute of Postgraduate Medical Education and Research, Pondicherry, 605 006, India.

    BACKGROUND: Glycation and lipid peroxidation are two important processes known to play a key role in complications of many pathophysiological process. We sought to assess the possibility of an interaction between these processes in vitro and to examine the effect of lipoic acid and taurine on the glycation of hemoglobin and lipid peroxidation. METHODS: Human erythrocytes in phosphate buffered saline (pH 7.4) were incubated with 5 or 50 mmol/l glucose. To study the effect of antioxidants on glycation of hemoglobin, erythrocytes were incubated with either lipoic acid or taurine and then exposed to glucose concentration of either 5 or 50 mmol/l. To clarify if lipid peroxides per se enhances the glycated hemoglobin level, an in vitro study was performed by incubating erythrocyte suspension containing either 5 or 50 mmol/l glucose with or without MDA. Lipid peroxides and glycated hemoglobin levels were determined in the glucose treated cells. RESULTS: Glycated hemoglobin levels were higher in erythrocytes incubated with 50 mmol/l glucose concentrations than in erythrocytes incubated with 5 mmol/l glucose. The increase in glycated hemoglobin levels was blocked significantly when erythrocytes were pretreated with either lipoic acid or taurine. Both the antioxidants used in the present study markedly reduced the MDA levels. The level of glycated hemoglobin in erythrocyte incubated in the presence of MDA was increased significantly when compared to erythrocyte incubated with glucose alone. CONCLUSIONS: Lipid peroxides per se may have a role to play in glycation of hemoglobin and antioxidants (lipoic acid and taurine) can partially inhibit the formation of glycated hemoglobin by lowering the levels of lipid peroxides.

    PMID: 16325165 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mol Cell Biochem. 1997 Dec;177(1-2):245-50.  Related Articles, Links
    Click here to read
    Prevention of lens protein glycation by taurine.

    Devamanoharan PS, Ali AH, Varma SD.

    Department of Ophthalmology, University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore 21201, USA.

    Modifications in lens protein structure and function due to nonenzymic glycosylation and oxidation have been suggested to play a significant role in the pathogenesis of sugar and senile cataracts. The glycation reaction involves an initial Schiff base formation between the protein NH2 groups and the carbonyl group of a reducing sugar. The Schiff base then undergoes several structural modifications, via some oxidative reactions involving oxygen free radicals. Hence certain endogenous tissue components that may inhibit the formation of protein-sugar adduct formation may have a sparing effect against the cataractogenic effects of sugars and reactive oxygen. The eye lens is endowed with significant concentration of taurine, a sulfonated amino acid, and its precursor hypotaurine. It is hypothesized that taurine and hypotaurine may have this purported function of protecting the lens proteins against glycation and subsequent denaturation, in addition to their other functions. The results presented herein suggest that these compounds are indeed capable of protecting glycation competitively by forming Schiff bases with sugar carbonyls, and thereby preventing the glycation of lens proteins per se. In addition, they appear to prevent oxidative damage by scavenging hydroxyl radicals. This was apparent by their preventive effect against the formation of the thiobarbituric acid reactive material generated from deoxy-ribose, when the later was exposed to hydroxyl radicals generated by the action of xanthine oxidase on hypoxanthine in presence of iron.

    PMID: 9450669 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

As for dosage, 6g daily is used in Japan for treatment of cardiovascular disease, and I recently read about 6g being used successfully to lower LDL cholesterol in healthy volunteers. I'm also about 200lbs, and taurine is pretty harmless and very inexpensive. I think 4g is reasonable.

[FunkOdyssey]

Update:

Reduced fish oil intake to 200mg DHA / 1000mg EPA daily in response to recent research.

Discontinued morning dose of Ashwagandha because it was making me spacey/sluggish during the day.

Saved $7 between the two, new monthly cost = $148.

[syr_]

Also you can save TONS of cash, and be able to afford the cutting edge stuff.

ABSOLUTELY true. I need to switch to a powder form of vitamin C, among other things.

[DukeNukem]

Duke is the one that convinced me saccharin was completely safe. If its not, then my blood is on his hands.

Ha ha!

Well, from ALL I've read (I'm like you, I rarely rely on one source, but try to find a consensus among reputable sources), saccharin does appear to be safe used in moderation. I've yet to see anything negative associated with its use, and given that it's been around 100 years that's a strong endorsement. Sucralose and aspartame, meanwhile, have far too numerous reported issues. This is why I think MR (and April) is a bit of a knucklehead for using sucralose (a relatively new sugar substitute) with such abandon. A critical, bone-headed blunder that makes my suspect anything else he says.

BTW, I rarely use saccharine (or stevia), and instead rely on small amounts of sugar for my green tea consumption. (I never add sweetener to food.)

Good program, btw.

I've really started to think along the lines of anti-inflammation supplements, anti-brain degeneration supps, anti-glycation (and glycation breaking, such as generic ALT-711) supps, and supps that focus on preventing diabetes and keeping blood sugar levels low normal (I take "Phase 2" white bean extract and PGX prior to each meal that contains starch, for example). I see these areas as important to long-term health, and even slowing the appearance of aging as a nice side-benefit.

[syr_]

I have to say that saccharine is the artificial sweetener that tastes better in natural tea, it has absolutely no chemical taste. Stevia tastes horrible in tea (sic). 1 or 2 doses of saccharine daily should still be moderate and therefore pretty safe.

[scottl]

That is a lot of R-ala. I know why, but still....

Oh and supping beta alanine is cheaper then carnosine and (I believe) accomplishes the same thing.

[kenj]

Hi Funk, are you still taking a gram of RLA daily? If you have been, for several months now, would you share the possible effects from this, if any?

[sally]

Hi All-

Haven't posted in quite a while but I wonder if I could get some info on the sources of research or info regarding a couple comments:

Funk-

"Reduced fish oil intake to 200mg DHA / 1000mg EPA daily in response to recent research."

Scottl-

'" supping beta alanine is cheaper then carnosine and (I believe) accomplishes the same thing. "

Thanks-Sally

[FunkOdyssey]

I never saw that question about my DHA / EPA dosage, and at this point I don't even remember what I was talking about. Here's an updated regimen:

DIET (Ketogenic)

Here's what I eat on a typical day:

Breakfast: 3 organic cage-free eggs, 40g of 85% dark chocolate (1/3 to 1/2 of a typical bar), tablespoon of coconut oil

Snack: couple handfuls of mixed nuts (almonds, pecans, cashews, brazil nuts, hazelnuts)

Lunch: large serving of chicken salad (trader joes canned chunk chicken, organic mayonnaise), large salad with baby spinach, romaine, random veggies, and 4 tablespoons of olive oil & red wine vinegar dressing, tablespoon of coconut oil

Snack: more mixed nuts

Dinner: two 1/4 lb 85% lean hamburgers (organic beef), covered with a large amount of guacamole and a couple teaspoons of salsa, large serving of vegetables (brocolli, green beans, asparagus, mixed veggies, etc) covered in olive oil, tablespoon of coconut oil

Beverages throughout the day consist of water, rooibos tea and hanson diet soda (sucralose sweetened). I estimate the total calories to be in the neighborhood of 2500-3000 calories. I am 6'6" tall, was 195 lbs initially and am now 190 lbs after 4-5 weeks on this diet. Lost weight I attribute to water and fat -- I have never been this lean in my life, but have not lost any strength and may have even gained a small amount of muscle. I lost most of the weight in the first two weeks, and have not noticed any significant change since then.

Other foods I eat include celery sticks filled with almond butter (I eat this all the time), all kinds of omelets, bacon, egg salad, stews or soups (combining meat with non-starchy vegetables), olives, avocados, any non-starchy vegetables, small measured servings of berries, any kind of nut butter aside from cashew and peanut which are both too high in carbs (finding ways to eat it without bread is the challenge), cobb salad, organic hot dogs w/ mustard, any kind of meat. I try to ensure that all of my meat, eggs, and dairy products are organic, otherwise these items will not be very healthy to consume due to pesticide/chemical residues accumulated in the animal fat.


SUPPLEMENTS

Breakfast-
Ortho-core: 2 capsules
Vitamin D: 2000iu
Vitamin C: 500mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Methyl B12: 1mg
L-methylfolate: 800mcg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid: 300mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg
CDP-Choline: 250mg
Piracetam: 2400mg

Lunch-
Ortho-core: 2 caps
Vitamin C: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg
CDP-Choline: 250mg
Piracetam: 1600mg
Lactobacillus GG: 10 billion CFU (Culturelle capsule)

Dinner-
Ortho-core: 2 caps
Vitamin C: 500mg
N-Acetyl-Cysteine: 500mg
Flax Oil: 3g
Fish Oil: 200mg DHA, 400mg EPA
Acetyl-L-Carnitine: 500mg
Alpha Lipoic Acid: 300mg
Green Tea Extract: 400mg (200mg EGCG)
Taurine: 1g
Benfotiamine: 150mg

Bedtime-
Vitamin C: 500mg
Taurine: 1g
Magnesium Citrate: 500mg
Zinc: 30mg
Lactobacillus GG: 10 billion CFU (Culturelle capsule)

I was taking arginine and histidine before meals to address the postprandial glucose surge of a typical diet; these are not necessary on a ketogenic diet IMO. I was also taking Carnosine which I will probably not continue due to high cost and questionable benefit. I do still take benfotiamine, 150mg with each meal (450mg daily), because there is so much evidence of positive effects in human trials. The glycation process may be better controlled and proceed more slowly on this diet but it remains a problem nonetheless. I want to add pyridoxamine too but am looking for a cheaper source than Jarrow Pyridoxall (I am going to ask Paul Wakfer where he obtains his) so I can take a substantial dosage. I will be switching from regular ALA soon to Na-RALA at the same dose. I may also be adding some Jarrow Toco-sorb (Tocomin tocotrienol complex) and Epicor soon.

EXERCISE

3 day weight-lifting schedule: Upper-body Push, Upper-body Pull, Legs & Abs. Repeated endlessly with occasional 1 day breaks.
Walk 30 minutes every weekday to and from work.

RECREATION & LAUGHTER

The Daily Show
Colbert Report
Battlefield 2 on the PC
Read fantasy novels (dragonlance etc)
Spend time with my fiancee

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 11 May 2008 - 06:29 PM.

[Heliotrope]

$155 - Total monthly cost

That's not quite a poor man's stack, dude.

Yeah with the "average poor joe" or even any middle class white-collared guy, do you think they'll shell out $155 to buy some supplements that purportedly can lengthen their lives ?? They're more likely to blow the money on something else and more pleasurable stuff, like cigs, drugs, alcohol, dates w/ women, gadgets and trinkets.

I'd say even if the underclass to middle-class people are inclined to dedicate up to $200 per month on supps, for EACH and EVERY single month for likely the rest of their lives, the problem is they may be poor in the first place due to some social barriers/lack of education/not-as-informed. How many of them go on imminst or similar sites to know what they need to take in order to live longer & healthier ??? Most don't.

Edited by HYP86, 11 May 2008 - 06:40 PM.

[FunkOdyssey]

When I said $150 a month was for poor people that was in relation to Shepard's regimen which, at that time, was extremely extensive (probably upwards of $300 a month). I do realize that $150 a month is a significant amount of money, and you're right, few people are willing to make that kind of investment. Then again, most of the people I know in their mid-late 20's spend twice that much every month going out to bars, going out to eat, etc. The current updated regimen above is still probably very close to the $150 / month range.

[Heliotrope]

When I said $150 a month was for poor people that was in relation to Shepard's regimen which, at that time, was extremely extensive (probably upwards of $300 a month). I do realize that $150 a month is a significant amount of money, and you're right, few people are willing to make that kind of investment. Then again, most of the people I know in their mid-late 20's spend twice that much every month going out to bars, going out to eat, etc. The current updated regimen above is still probably very close to the $150 / month range.

$150/month sounds very reasonable. i'm glad you came up with this relatively cheap regimen. It can be worked into the day very well. If they really work and can extend my life for any significant % percentage, will be willing to pay up to $1,000

When I said $150 a month was for poor people that was in relation to Shepard's regimen which, at that time, was extremely extensive (probably upwards of $300 a month). I do realize that $150 a month is a significant amount of money, and you're right, few people are willing to make that kind of investment. Then again, most of the people I know in their mid-late 20's spend twice that much every month going out to bars, going out to eat, etc. The current updated regimen above is still probably very close to the $150 / month range.

$150/month sounds very reasonable. i'm glad you came up with this relatively cheap regimen. It can be worked into the day very well. If they really work and can extend my life for any significant % percentage like even 10 percent, i will be willing to pay up to $1,000. extending life is a lot more important. just another motivation for me to get good , satisfying, well-paying jobs in the future. who knows, someday I'd even be willing to donate money to help develop these supplements.

i'll try some of those things out. you're right many ppl spend far more on things that may not be as important as sups. I'd say the vast majority of ppl in developed countries can set aside $150 for sups every month if making a little effort. won't even make a small dent on their income

Edited by HYP86, 11 May 2008 - 08:10 PM.

[mikeinnaples]

The gram a day NAC is kind of scary high for me, other than that I like it.

[FunkOdyssey]

I actually reduced it to 500mg a couple days ago and added some silymarin instead, I'll have to update.

[FunkOdyssey]

I updated the original post on the first page with recent changes.

[mitkat]

Thanks for posting the diet in great detail, Funk...always been a great regime, but more diet ideas are great to work with. Kudos!

[zoolander]

RECREATION & LAUGHTER

The Daily Show
Colbert Report
Battlefield 2 on the PC
Read fantasy novels (dragonlance etc)
Spend time with my fiancee

You're such a hippie.



Come on! You know you wanna hug it!

[zoolander]

or perhaps this tree would suit you better *wink*wink*knudge*knudge*



maybe you've already been there??

[krillin]

I use folinate instead of L-methylfolate. It's a lot cheaper and they both bypass conversion to dihydrofolate: the rate determining step in folate metabolism.

I take all my lipoic acid at once. If it's a spike-dose supplement, I figure the bigger the spike the better. PMID: 10468203 shows that once-daily dosing works as well as twice- or thrice-daily dosing for insulin sensitivity.

I use whey protein instead of NAC since it's more effective and doesn't have the drawbacks which have been beaten to death on this site.

No South Park? How do you live? The Andromeda Strain miniseries had a neat encounter between a TV reporter and a pothead fleeing the National Guard and her infected boyfriend, respectively. He needed a ride, so he tried to gain her trust by saying that surely she recognized him from TV.

"No, I just watch Colbert; 'South Park' sometimes."