231 replies to this topic

[osris]

Your opinions and agenda were clear to see from your very first post, which actually started with a list of articles under the banner of "Covid is Not a Threat". You could not make your views any clearer that that. Your views are clearly that the response to COVID-19 is too extreme, given that you believe it is not a threat.

 

If that's your opinion, that's fine. But you should label your thread appropriately, and not call it "What we know about Covid so far", from which you might expect an objective, fact-based analysis, rather than the articles from a load of second-rate conspiracy and pseudoscience-promoting rags which you linked to.

 

If you cannot even label your threads appropriately, there is not much chance you will get any of the other facts right. So right from the start, you create a credibility gap regarding the statements you present. Precision in language is important. If you have an opinion or hypothesis, call it that. If you have some solid facts and knowledge, then label them accordingly. Don't call an opinion a fact, or a fact an opinion.

 

"What we know so far" is an accurate title. You choose to see an agenda behind it. The links posted all lead to factual and respected scientific viewpoints. If you choose to see a bias, you have that right, of course.

[osris]

 
It is the job of all good journalists to fact check their sources, that's why people pay for quality journalism, so that they can have some assurance that the information presented is correct. 
 
The reality is that individual's do not usually have the time to fact check every article they read, so most of the time you have to delegate this job to the journalists.
 
If you are reading second-rate journalism, there is a much higher chance of the facts being unchecked, and a much higher chance of conspiracy theory being incorrectly presented as fact. 
 
That's why traditionally people stick with quality media. 
 
 
 
But is seems more and more people these days are consuming second-rate journalism. This is why a lot of the young generation these days have shit for brains, because they get their news from social media, via viral sharing of dubious or trash articles. Garbage in, garbage out. That could the motto of many people these days.

 

Somebody should do something about this new generation, as they are growing up living in the artificial world of social media, and this may stifle a healthy emotional development, as well as fill their minds with journalistic garbage. It's not their fault, they were born into this; but it's not really healthy.

 

There are many assumptions, generalizations, logical fallacies, arrogant and patronizing posturing in this post that it almost reads like a parody of someone who has anger control issues. Looks like you are the one with an agenda, not those disagreeing with you. Here are your highlights:

 

“all good journalists”

 

“quality journalism”

 

“second-rate journalism”

 

“conspiracy theory being incorrectly presented as fact”

 

“quality media”

 

“second-rate journalism”

 

 “young generation these days have shit for brains”

 

“dubious or trash articles”

 

“Garbage in, garbage out. That could the motto of many people these days.”

 

“and this may stifle a healthy emotional development”

 

“journalistic garbage” 

 

“It's not their fault, they were born into this”

Edited by osris, 26 June 2020 - 03:58 PM.

[Hip]

"What we know so far" is an accurate title. You choose to see an agenda behind it. The links posted all lead to factual and respected scientific viewpoints. If you choose to see a bias, you have that right, of course.

 

You start off saying that "Covid is Not a Threat", an opinion in sharp contrast to the vast majority of scientists, who state that it is a grave threat. Obviously your comments are NOT reflecting what the body of science says. 

 

So you are NOT presenting what we know and have concluded so far, you are presenting your personal opinion, which differs sharply from the consensus of expert opinion.

 

What may I ask are your academic and professional qualifications that allow you to perform this coronavirus pandemic analysis, since you seem pretty sure about your views?

[Hip]

arrogant and patronizing posturing

 

Arrogant and patronizing posturing? It's you who is arrogantly (not to mentioning foolishly) overriding the general consensus and balance of scientific opinion, and stating that COVID-19 is not a threat. 

Edited by Hip, 26 June 2020 - 05:01 PM.

[pamojja]

No answer to my question why you don't take the usual influenzia and pneumonia mortality not serious - is also answering and showing lack of reflection.

 

To correct all the misconceptions you have about the coronavirus pandemic would be a full time job. Nobody has the time for that.

 

Lol. Not to answer only one most simple question - why you don't take the usual influenzia and pneumonia mortality not serious? - because aswering that would be a full-time job, you really exposed your willful ignorance.

 

 

Reminds me of a media discussion yesterday about Austria's Ibiza video scandal (where the vice-chancellor went in a trap and for hours boosted how prosperous Russian oligarchs could buy the crucial media and policymakers with 'donations'), because at the parliamentery investigation our chancellor alledgedly replyed each question: "Sorry, I have completely lost memory". And one reporter commented, better to show such parliamentary infestigation on TV (not done) to show the population how badly this chancellor - always concerned about his good image - is really presenting with his pants down.

 

Like this:  external-content.duckduckgo.com.jpg   13.69KB   0 downloads and lots of:  ostrich.jpg   18.37KB   0 downloads

 

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 27 June 2020 - 11:01 AM.

[osris]

You start off saying that "Covid is Not a Threat", an opinion in sharp contrast to the vast majority of scientists, who state that it is a grave threat. Obviously your comments are NOT reflecting what the body of science says. 

 

So you are NOT presenting what we know and have concluded so far, you are presenting your personal opinion, which differs sharply from the consensus of expert opinion.

 

What may I ask are your academic and professional qualifications that allow you to perform this coronavirus pandemic analysis, since you seem pretty sure about your views?

 

The links I posted are grouped under headings that describe what they relate to. The "Covid is not a threat" title was placed above the links to scientists who came to that conclusion. I am not necessarily saying covid is not a threat, I am grouping the links under that title. Covid could or could not be a threat. It is a threat to a very small percentage of very old or obese people with immune disorders. Whether it is a bigger threat than influenza is debatable. 

 

Do I need academic and professional qualifications to post links to people who do? That would be very odd, if so.

[osris]

Arrogant and patronizing posturing? It's you who is arrogantly (not to mentioning foolishly) overriding the general consensus and balance of scientific opinion, and stating that COVID-19 is not a threat. 

 

If you do the research, you will see that the consensus is shifting. You shouldn't base your research on CNN etc.

[osris]

Lol. Not to answer only one most simple question - why you don't take the usual influenzia and pneumonia mortality not serious? - because aswering that would be a full-time job, you really exposed your willful ignorance.

 

 

 

Yes, Hip, answer that question. 

[Hip]

The influenza question is very simple to deal with, and I am really surprised that you guys are unable to figure it out for yourselves. This is why it's good to have a technical background, so that you can answer questions like this. 

 

 

 

Seasonal influenza kills an estimated 250,00 to 500,000 people each year globally. Reference: here. So let's take an average, and say it kills 375,000 people annually. 

 

Coronavirus has so far has killed 500,000 people globally. Ref: here. Some data based on excess deaths actually put the coronavirus death toll at about 60% higher than this 500,000 figure; but for the moment we will go with 500,000.

 

Now the coronavirus pandemic is not over; it is just beginning. How far along into the pandemic are we?

 

In terms of the percentage of people infected with coronavirus so far (as determined by antibody testing), this article shows the figures vary by country, but the average is about 10%. So we are still in the early days of this pandemic. Now typically in pandemics, a virus will spread to around 70% or 80% of the population, before it is stopped by herd immunity.

 

So we can expect that coronavirus will spread to about 70% of the population, unless a vaccine comes along which halts it spread. So this means coronavirus is expected to infect 70% ÷ 10% = 7 times more people than it has so far, before it stops. 

 

As coronavirus infected the first 10% of the population, it killed 500,000. So as it spreads to infect 70% of the population, the total death toll would be 7 x 500,000 = 3.5 million. 

 

So this shows coronavirus is much worse than seasonal influenza in terms of its death rate.

 

 

Of course, by imposing measures such as social distancing, etc, we are slowing down coronavirus spread, and playing for time, as it is hoped that a vaccine will arrive within a year. If we had not put these slowdown measures in place, the death toll would have been a lot higher already. If and when the vaccine arrives, it stands to save a lot of lives.

 

 

Edited by Hip, 27 June 2020 - 03:37 PM.

[Hip]

The links I posted are grouped under headings that describe what they relate to. The "Covid is not a threat" title was placed above the links to scientists who came to that conclusion. I am not necessarily saying covid is not a threat, I am grouping the links under that title. Covid could or could not be a threat.

 

But to have a fair and balanced summary, you should have also presented links which state that "COVID is a greater threat than appreciated", because there are plenty of those as well. 

 

Likewise with your title: "The Death Numbers Have Been Exaggerated". You should have also included links which state that : "The Death Numbers Have Been Under Reported", because there are many which say that.

 

 

As I said earlier, your summary cherry picks articles which support your apparent view that coronavirus is not a threat. In science, there is usually a spectrum of opinion, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, not at the extreme ends of the spectrum. To be fair and objective, you want to report the balance or opinion, or the general consensus.

 

You could probably find some scientists who don't believe that tobacco causes cancer. But that extreme end of the spectrum is not the scientific balance or opinion or consensus regarding the carcinogenicity of tobacco. 

[osris]

The influenza question is very simple to deal with, and I am really surprised that you guys are unable to figure it out for yourselves. This is why it's good to have a technical background, so that you can answer questions like this. 

 

 

 

Seasonal influenza kills an estimated 250,00 to 500,000 people each year globally. Reference: here. So let's take an average, and say it kills 375,000 people annually. 

 

Coronavirus has so far has killed 500,000 people globally. Ref: here. Some data based on excess deaths actually put the coronavirus death toll at about 60% higher than this 500,000 figure; but for the moment we will go with 500,000.

 

Now the coronavirus pandemic is not over; it is just beginning. How far along into the pandemic are we?

 

In terms of the percentage of people infected with coronavirus so far (as determined by antibody testing), this article shows the figures vary by country, but the average is about 10%. So we are still in the early days of this pandemic. Now typically in pandemics, a virus will spread to around 70% or 80% of the population, before it is stopped by herd immunity.

 

So we can expect that coronavirus will spread to about 70% of the population, unless a vaccine comes along which halts it spread. So this means coronavirus is expected to infect 70% ÷ 10% = 7 times more people than it has so far, before it stops. 

 

As coronavirus infected the first 10% of the population, it killed 500,000. So as it spreads to infect 70% of the population, the total death toll would be 7 x 500,000 = 3.5 million. 

 

So this shows coronavirus is much worse than seasonal influenza in terms of its death rate.

 

 

Of course, by imposing measures such as social distancing, etc, we are slowing down coronavirus spread, and playing for time, as it is hoped that a vaccine will arrive within a year. If we had not put these slowdown measures in place, the death toll would have been a lot higher already. If and when the vaccine arrives, it stands to save a lot of lives.

 

As has been pointed out in earlier posts here, the official death count numbers are not reliable. As pamojja has already noted, you always move the debate on without first addressing salient questions and facts that argue against your viewpoint. So by relentlessly quoting official death count numbers you are, once again, avoiding the issues.

 

And regarding infection rates, the official stats are also not reliable becuase:

 

"What do we know about COVID-19 testing? The numbers are flawed because testing methods have a high error rate. People counted as COVID-19 victims actually died of something else." 

 

https://evidencenotfear.com/evidence/

[pamojja]

Seasonal influenza kills an estimated 250,00 to 500,000 people each year globally. Reference: here.

 

Your secondary source medscape references the WHO as its source.

 

Epidemiology

In tropical areas, influenza occurs throughout the year. In the Northern Hemisphere, the influenza season typically starts in early fall, peaks in mid-February, and ends in the late spring of the following year. The duration and severity of influenza epidemics vary, however, depending on the virus subtype involved.

The World Health Organization estimates that worldwide, annual influenza epidemics result in about 3-5 million cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 deaths. [21] In the United States, individual cases of seasonal flu and flu-related deaths in adults are not reportable illnesses; consequently, mortality is estimated by using statistical models

 

https://www.worldlif...#WORLD RANKINGS states as its source beside others also the WHO:

 

OUR DATA: We use the most recent data from these primary sources: WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases for global health and causes of death.
We use the CDC, NIH and individual state and county databases for verification and supplementation for USA data

 

With slightly above 3 million deaths of influenza and pneumonia in 2017, and slightly below 3 million deaths in 2018 given by the later. Both can't of course be right, expecially since the WHO seems the primary source of both.

 

The most likely explanation for this huge discrepancy is that medscape explicitly states 'influenza epidemics', while woldlifeexpectancy.com gives the complete numbers of all  'Influenza and Pneumonia' deaths per year. Which of course are in most cases co-comitant. Just as covid-19 deaths couldn't be devided into covid alone, or its most common ending as sepsis.

 

 

So this shows coronavirus is much worse than seasonal influenza in terms of its death rate.

 

As you can see in this example: if one is only relying on singular popular sources without further investigation, especially some like medscape heavily sponsored with advertisment money, and doesn't compares it to others sources without incentive to distort numbers by obmission. One is so easily mistaken, as you have been.

 

 

If you look at this wikipedia map of covid-19 deaths per million today(By Dan Polansky and authors of File:BlankMap-World.svg. - Own work;This vector image includes elements that have been taken or adapted from this file:  BlankMap-World.svg., CC BY-SA 4.0, https://commons.wiki...urid=88239281):

 

 Screenshot_2020-06-27 COVID-19 pandemic - Wikipedia.png   465.2KB   0 downloads

 

And compare it to this from woldlifeexpectancy of influenzia and pneumonia deaths per million and year:

 

 Screenshot_2020-06-27 INFLUENZA AND PNEUMONIA DEATH RATE BY COUNTRY.png   143.54KB   0 downloads

 

red colored: 765-2465 per million

green: 331-765

purple: 170-331

gray: 20-170

 

You can see that the dark blue (covid deaths) compares about only to the green (yearly influenza and pneumonia deaths).

 

Covid hasn't even reached the amount of suffering deaths anywhere, as is usual year after year after year for about 15% of our world-population from influenzia and pneumonia together. (the dark red colored countries)

 

 

Therefore what justification you have to separate pneumonia deaths from influeza deaths (especially since with the former one is rarely tested on the later). Other than repeating like a parrot what medscape says?

Edited by pamojja, 27 June 2020 - 05:19 PM.

[osris]

But to have a fair and balanced summary, you should have also presented links which state that "COVID is a greater threat than appreciated", because there are plenty of those as well. 

 

Likewise with your title: "The Death Numbers Have Been Exaggerated". You should have also included links which state that : "The Death Numbers Have Been Under Reported", because there are many which say that.

 

 

As I said earlier, your summary cherry picks articles which support your apparent view that coronavirus is not a threat. In science, there is usually a spectrum of opinion, and the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, not at the extreme ends of the spectrum. To be fair and objective, you want to report the balance or opinion, or the general consensus.

 

You could probably find some scientists who don't believe that tobacco causes cancer. But that extreme end of the spectrum is not the scientific balance or opinion or consensus regarding the carcinogenicity of tobacco. 

 

Science is not necessarily about “balance”, whatever that means in a discussion about scientific fact. My post wasn’t intended to rehearse the official scientific viewpoints regarding Covid, but to state what we know about the disease. And what we know about the disease is more accurately reflected by the scientists I linked to than by the scientists you rely on. As I said earlier, the consensus is shifting towards the view that Covid is neither as lethal as was initially thought nor as infectious—as we now know from studies that show the testing methodology is problematic. See:

 

 

“Some PCR tests register positive for types of coronavirus that have nothing to do with COVID—including plain old coronas that cause nothing more than a cold.”

 

https://www.wakingti...agnostic-tests/

 

 

"What do we know about COVID-19 testing? The numbers are flawed because testing methods have a high error rate. People counted as COVID-19 victims actually died of something else." 

 

https://evidencenotfear.com/evidence/

[Hip]

As has been pointed out in earlier posts here, the official death count numbers are not reliable.

 
Agreed, the official death count numbers are likely under reported, and a more reliable figure is the excess death figure. Do you know what excess death means? If you don't look it up, because it's important to this discussion. 
 
So the true coronavirus deaths may be 60% more than those reported. Which indicates that coronavirus is more dangerous than the death figures indicate.




 

"What do we know about COVID-19 testing? The numbers are flawed because testing methods have a high error rate. People counted as COVID-19 victims actually died of something else." 
 
https://evidencenotfear.com/evidence/

 

Your quote from that coronavirus denier website makes no sense, as it confuses antibody testing with death counts.

 

Do you know what an antibody test is? Do you know how these tests work? 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 27 June 2020 - 05:37 PM.

[Hip]

Therefore what justification you have to separate pneumonia deaths from influeza deaths (especially since with the former one is rarely tested on the later). Other than repeating like a parrot what medscape says?

 

If you want to argue that seasonal influenza deaths are higher than the estimates provided by the WHO (and by other sources that I have seen), then please provide links to quality studies which have done the analysis to support your assertions. I am not listening to your amateur attempts of concocting your own figures. When it comes to medical details, I want to hear from experts in their field.

 

 

 

especially some like medscape heavily sponsored with advertisment money

 

Your paranoia about advertisers controlling the content of publications seems like some sort of mental health issue. Paranoia is a medical symptom, you know. It's common in schizotypal personality disorder, a mental health condition which affects 4% of the population, and also predisposes people to believing in conspiracy theories, and leads to eccentric behavior.

 

If you think you might have schizotypy, antipsychotic drugs can help.

 

 

 

[Hip]

My post wasn’t intended to rehearse the official scientific viewpoints regarding Covid, but to state what we know about the disease. 

 

Your post post was simply a compilation of mainly Mickey Mouse sources.

 

If I wanted to know what Mickey Mouse thinks about coronavirus, I'd take a trip to Disneyland.

[pamojja]

If you want to argue that seasonal influenza deaths are higher than the estimates provided by the WHO (and by other sources that I have seen), then please provide links to quality studies which have done the analysis to support your assertions. I am not listening to your amateur attempts of concocting your own figures. When it comes to medical details, I want to hear from experts in their field.

 

You were the one satisfied with only one secondary source, without linking to the original WHO document. Without links to any quality studies yourself! I wasn't and found a secondary source which references not only WHO, but also double checked with World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases.

 

As long as your bias is confirmed, even with a secondary source which blatantly leaves out cocomittant pneumonia from the influeza mortality. I'm not - and I certainly wont search for you, only as usually to become ignored, and continued with yet other adhominems:

 

Your paranoia about advertisers controlling the content of publications seems like some sort of mental health issue. Paranoia is a medical symptom, you know. It's common in schizotypal personality disorder, a mental health condition which affects 4% of the population, and also predisposes people to believing in conspiracy theories, and leads to eccentric behavior.

 

If you think you might have schizotypy, antipsychotic drugs can help.

 

Actually you admitted to schizotypy in many past posts. I, in comparison, work as a care-assistant with by all kinds of chronic psychiatric diseases seriously disabled people. All devastated by the antipsychotic drugs you're so fast in recommending.

 

Never suffered from any of the psychiatric diseases. Neither anciety, depression, or substance abuse.

 

Are you feeling paranoid by a virus much less letal as the flu already?

 

But thats your only discussion style here, always insulting, too lazy to argue seriously.


 

Edited by pamojja, 27 June 2020 - 06:31 PM.

[Hip]

All devastated by the antipsychotic drugs you're so fast in recommending.

 
Why is everything you say anti-establishment and against the received wisdom? You differ from the balanced/consensus view on coronavirus, you oppose mainstream media, and now you have taken an opposing view to antipsychotic drugs (antipsychotics can have serious side effects for sure, but they are used to battle a very, very dire and hellish condition, and there's not much else which works).   
 
Seems like your views on coronavirus are not informed by science, but because you simply enjoy taking an anti-establishment perspective.

 

 

 

 

Actually you admitted to schizotypy in many past posts. I, in comparison, work as a care-assistant with by all kinds of chronic psychiatric diseases seriously disabled people. All devastated by the antipsychotic drugs you're so fast in recommending.v

Not schizotypy, but I do sometimes get very mild psychosis symptoms, and treat these with very low doses antipsychotics, as well as other supplements and drugs that I have found useful. 

 

I am very happy to talk about all the mental health issues I have, which include depression, anhedonia, blunted affect, ADHD, generalized anxiety disorder and a few more, especially if it helps other who might be suffering the same symptoms.

 

Edited by Hip, 27 June 2020 - 07:38 PM.

[pamojja]

Why is everything you say anti-establishment and against the received wisdom? You differ from the balanced/consensus view on coronavirus, you oppose mainstream media, and now you have taken an opposing view to antipsychotic drugs (antipsychotics can have serious side effects for sure, but they are used to battle a very, very dire and hellish condition, and there's not much else which works).   
 
Seems like your views on coronavirus are not informed by science, but because you simply enjoy taking an anti-establishment perspective.

 
Received wisdom? - Without double-checking any news or studies? - Because there are so many gullibles, and therefore unintended consequences. On either side.
 
It is a misperception that having an own opinion means one is against everything - but it helps to to strive for blamelessness in one's own personal realm, despite everyone going the other way. (As in the example of choosing not to own a private car at age 20 - completely against what everyone goes for - but with so much better consequences, for everyone.) Though I'm agnostic about a next life. The seeds which are sown will always be reaped, by someone.
 
 

Not schizotypy, but I do sometimes get very mild psychosis symptoms, and treat these with very low doses antipsychotics, as well as other supplements and drugs that I have found useful. 
 
I am very happy to talk about all the mental health issues I have, which include depression, anhedonia, blunted affect, ADHD, generalized anxiety disorder and a few more, especially if it helps other who might be suffering the same symptoms.

Great, if you're able to find relieve from low doses and supplements. However, really affected are even with anti-psychotics long-term in very tire circumstances. Just don't think it really funny to compare such deep suffering with anyone questioning conflict of interest. Its nothing than intentionally insulting, and belitteling those really affected. Including to a smaller extent yourself.

 

I can get convinced by sound reasoning and double-checked sources, never without or by bullying though.

Edited by pamojja, 27 June 2020 - 08:37 PM.

[Hebbeh]

I can't speak for the UK but here in North America, the typical coronavirus "head cold" is definitely a seasonal affliction running its course normally starting around November/December and tapering off by March/April.  Coronavirus "colds" are extremely rare and practically unheard of in the summer months of May through September/October and Influenza is nonexistent during the summer time frame as well.

 

And I don't need any news sources or propaganda of any kind, pro or con, to look around me and see what is going on as we approach the height of summer.  People all around (including people I know) are becoming extremely ill  and the numbers are increasing dramatically.  Yesterday alone, we had over 45,000 new diagnosed cases and over 600 deaths attributed to COVID-19 in a single day (here) and if you are trying to attribute these illnesses and deaths to typical colds and flu due to faulty testing or misdiagnoses then it would be the first time in modern history that this summertime phonomona has ever occured (or anytime of the year for that matter).  And graphing the trends show that the numbers have been continually increasing and continue to increase upward daily.  This is obviously not going away anytime soon.

 

And the deaths and permanent disabilities are NOT just in the elderly, obese, or pre-existing conditions.  And for you to be pushing conspiracy theory propaganda is a disgusting injustice to all who have died, continue to die, and/or been permanently disabled.

 

If you are truly ill informed and believe that this is way overblown, I openly invite you to visit North America and see what is truly happening at ground zero.  Oh, that's right... the EU is preparing to impose a travel ban on the US.

[Hip]

 I can get convinced by sound reasoning and double-checked sources, never without or by bullying though.

 

The trouble with the Internet is that we cannot see the expressions on people's faces when they post. I am not bullying, I am just having a bit of fun, teasing people a bit, and making a few humorous remarks.

 

That's the best approach when talking to people who read pseudoscience and conspiracy theory websites. 

 

As for sound reasoning, you were totally duped by Professor Knut Wittkowski's crazy ideas. Knut's coronavirus views were totally nutty, and in fact his video was removed from YouTube because it was too nutty. So it seems it is not sound reasoning which convinces you, but nutty reasoning!

[pamojja]

So it seems it is not sound reasoning which convinces you, but nutty reasoning!

 

Any video about covid not sharing Google's views and getting too many hits are censored. Also of such distinct and sincere scientist, like Dr John Ioannidis of Stanford University. Anything about vitamin C and alternative treatments with however much credentials. Which you may know by now, helped me to achive multiple remissions (PAD, COPD, ME/CFS...), while with Google's uncensored stuff I would have ended up with polypharmacy till my earlier death-bed without remission.

 

Also your membrance seems as faulty as with our still young chancellor. Though we've both been here and at PheonixRising in fierce discussions about this whole subject since its beginning (at PheonixRising all fierceness isn't allowed and therefore was censored out. Therefore you knowing very well that contempt at a supportive places is totally prohibited, and not seen as fun at all), you're still consistently ignoring that which really convinced me - after initially being really concerned that around nobody was than me - was, that covid-19 is in fact 3 times less dangerous than influenza and pneumonia, as shown by actual yearly mortality numbers of our world. Succseeded again in an unfounded acusation and adhominem? Proud of your poor memory and reasoning below anything?
 

Here again:

Cause of Death         Rank      Deaths

Coronary Heart Disease  1	8,727,670
Stroke                  2	6,221,072
Influenza and Pneumonia	3	3,177,204
Lung Disease	        4	3,162,054
Lung Cancers	        5	1,683,893
Diabetes Mellitus	6	1,570,100
Alzheimers/Dementia	7	1,533,855
Diarrhoeal diseases	8	1,388,418
Tuberculosis	        9	1,372,855
Road Traffic Accidents	10	1,339,206
Liver Disease	        11	1,154,240
Kidney Disease	        12	1,121,214
HIV/AIDS	        13	1,059,626
Low Birth Weight	14	1,056,984
Hypertension	        15	938,129
Suicide	                16	783,407
Liver Cancer	        17	777,816
Colon-Rectum Cancers	18	767,280
Stomach Cancer	        19	749,806
Birth Trauma	        20	690,870

Though you wont ever believe the combined sources of WHO, World Bank, UNESCO, CIA and individual country databases, as long as it isn't printed in main-stream media. The fact remains, the risk of dying from corona during its peak here for me was actually 30% less than all the 52 years of my life before (without any meassures taken against). With the caveat, that I don't even remember my last flu. Pneumonia I survived already right at birth.

 

The 9 times most severe threat of CHD already encountered 11 years ago and in remission.

The 6 times more sever threat of stroke not even mentioned but found on MRI.

The 3 times more severe threat of pneumonia already survived at birth.

The 3 times more severe threat of lung disease in remission.

The more severe threat of prediabetis in check.

The more severe threat of tuberculosis in remission.

The more severe threat of road traffic accidents avoided by not driving.

The more severe threat of  NAFLD in remission.

The more severe threat of CKD stage 1 in my case reversed.

 

Finally covid-19 with all a much less likelyhood as above. If all that would be possible with nutty reasoning and censored conspiracy stuff...

 

Rather you suffer from delusional paranoid thinking and mass-hysteria.

 

 

I am just having a bit of fun, teasing people a bit, and making a few humorous remarks.

 

That's the best approach when talking to people who read pseudoscience and conspiracy theory websites.

 

I found the only way to ground people is to acknowledge first of all their reality. From there its easier to aproach common thruth. Are you really so wicked to upset people just for the fun of it and to seek enmity? - Is that all an expresion of your, I quote: depression, anhedonia, blunted affect, ADHD, generalized anxiety disorder and a few more, - by feeling relieve in encouraging the same in others?

 

Where your heart and mind was that damaged?

 

 

Edited by pamojja, 27 June 2020 - 11:39 PM.

[pamojja]

And for you to be pushing conspiracy theory propaganda is a disgusting injustice to all who have died, continue to die, and/or been permanently disabled.

 

All name-calling? No reasoning in relationship to actual 3 times more catastrophic yearly worldwide mortality from influenza and pneumonia?

 

Because its in the center of the US? And the usually 3 times worse numbers by ifluenzia and pneumonia in the African bush? Do black lifes really matter that nothing?
 

[Hebbeh]

You notice the only members responding to this conspiracy theory invented propaganda thread besides Hip and myself setting the record straight are the 2 chief propaganda disseminators and that speaks volumes.  Nobody else will bother.

 

And your marking my post reporting on the situation on the ground as ill informed would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

 

I'm done giving you the publicity you so desperately seek and let this thread die the death it deserves.

 

 

[Hip]

consistently ignoring that which really convinced me - after initially being really concerned that around nobody was than me - was, that covid-19 is in fact 3 times less dangerous than influenza and pneumonia

 

You argument is flawed for two very obvious reasons: 

 

Firstly, yes, there may be 3 million deaths globally from pneumonia, but very little can be done about this. We are powerless to prevent those pneumonia deaths.

 

But we are not powerless to prevent the coronavirus deaths; we can do something about it: the social distancing, washing hands, etc. Any ethical society would choose to prevent the coronavirus deaths. 

 

There is a big difference between deaths we cannot prevent, and deaths we can prevent.

 

 

 

Secondly, my conservative calculation earlier showed that coronavirus would lead to 3.5 million deaths if measures were not taken to slow its spread. In fact, the true figure is more like 5.6 million. So coronavirus is twice as lethal as all the pneumonia.

 

 

I found the only way to ground people is to acknowledge first of all their reality. From there its easier to aproach common thruth. Are you really so wicked to upset people just for the fun of it and to seek enmity?

 

Acknowledging your reality would be a full time job, and when one misconception is cleared up, you will find another, and another. It would be a never-ending task to acknowledge your reality. Teasing is easier, and more playful. Not wicked at all, it adds a bit of lightheartedness. I thought my Mickey Mouse comments were funny, didn't you?

 

 

Edited by Hip, 28 June 2020 - 12:35 AM.

[pamojja]

You argument is flawed for two very obvious reasons: 

 

Firstly, yes, there may be 3 million deaths globally from pneumonia, but very little can be done about this. We are powerless to prevent those pneumonia deaths.

 

But we are not powerless to prevent the coronavirus deaths; we can do something about it: the social distancing, washing hands, etc. Any ethical society would choose to prevent the coronavirus deaths. 

 

There is a big difference between deaths we cannot prevent, and deaths we can prevent.

 

Secondly, my conservative calculation earlier showed that coronavirus would lead to 3.5 million deaths if measures were not taken to slow its spread. In fact, the true figure is more like 5.6 million. So coronavirus is twice as lethal as all the pneumonia.

 

Pneumonia usually proceeding from a kind of influenza viral infection, of course is also reduced by such simple precautions like handwashing, not sneezing in other faces - not much different from corvid (as much as we know by now). That also probably is the reason there is till now no excess mortality in most places, but a very little in very few.

 

If the economic turmoil now proceeding indeed increases the heart attack rate by only something like 10%, the repercussion of the more drastic meassures will cost many times more deaths than covid-19 on its own ever could. Beside CVD being manyfold worse, it also could be prevented, as exemplified with my remission. But here its actually caused by such short-sighted arguments!

 

Your conservative calculation isn't even prepublished, nor peer reviewed. Same garbage like Fergusson's stuff. All mental fabrications of unproven speculations shown by now multiple times wrong. Just now it took you amazing 4 month to acknowledge for the first time, that there are indeed 3 million yearly influenza and pneumonia deaths. While still yesteday with the breath of someone in authority declared it only 10% of that!

 

Your conservative calculation is simply BS with no evidence in real death numbers. Exemplified by the proven fact, that most strict shutdowns couldn't prevent worst mortality, while in others lacking those such exorbitant increases of deaths never even started to happen.

 

By the way, you didn't pointed out where Knut Wittkowski's finally indeed did get it wrong. As statistican and epidemiologist he talked about how cold-waves behaved during the 3 something decades of his professional life, and that it wouldn't different this time. What he couldn't recon with was, the insanity to force all not severe infected back from hosipitals into nursing-homes. As mistakingly happened in all places with higher death-toll, adding up even more than half of all of their deaths.

 

Acknowledging your reality would be a full time job, and when one misconception is cleared up, you will find another, and another. It would be a never-ending task to acknowledge your reality. Teasing is easier, and more playful. Not wicked at all, it adds a bit of lightheartedness. I thought my Mickey Mouse comments were funny, didn't you?

 

I think making fun on cost of others utterly damaging to you, and anyone following your faulty arguments. And practically in real-life interaction with psychotics, only the little right under your nose has to be acknowledged, to be able to be able to proceed with more congurous interactions.


 

 

Edited by pamojja, 28 June 2020 - 09:57 AM.

[pamojja]

You notice the only members responding to this conspiracy theory invented propaganda thread besides Hip and myself setting the record straight are the 2 chief propaganda disseminators and that speaks volumes.  Nobody else will bother.

 

And your marking my post reporting on the situation on the ground as ill informed would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.

 

I'm done giving you the publicity you so desperately seek and let this thread die the death it deserves.

 

We also noticed 2 further members, mind and dorian, starting to interact. But soon disappeared due to members like you never answering direct questions, but always telling ignorant lies about anyone not your opinion.

 

A thread is nothing. Complying to no ethical standards, as you again and again knowingly do by adhominems and disparaging contiously, but not given any reasonable argument in exchange, will of course will have long-term ramification do your life only.

Edited by pamojja, 28 June 2020 - 10:03 AM.

[pamojja]

Just 2 of many MDs, who feel the ethical imparative to speak up for their patients. Also relating to HCQ.

 

 

But remember, as soon as such cincere video messages relating to covid get too many clicks, it becomes censored.

[pamojja]

And the deaths and permanent disabilities are NOT just in the elderly, obese, or pre-existing conditions.  And for you to be pushing conspiracy theory propaganda is a disgusting injustice to all who have died, continue to die, and/or been permanently disabled.

 
It is utterly harmful not to question the real extent and reasons for such inconsitencies, and it is of utter importance not getting bullied away from finding answers. We have to learn from this mess. Like for example cardiologist Dr. Malcolm Kendrick tries to do:
 

COVID the strange the inexplicable and the weird
207 Replies

26th June 2020

This article was first published on RT.com

This is so weird and inexplicable I can’t fathom it: why did deaths in people aged 15-44 spike during lockdown, & only in England?

As a doctor, I occasionally get confronted with difficult, unexplainable things, but this is a mystery I cannot solve. What lies behind this unusual rise in deaths in an age group that isn’t vulnerable to COVID-19?

It has been almost impossible to make any sense of the figures on COVID -19 deaths from around the world. They do say that the first casualty of war is truth. However, the enemy, in this case, does not much care what anyone says, so there is no point in lying to it.

All it wants to do is move from one host to another and propagate itself. Why does it wish to do this? We don’t really know, it just does. COVID -19 doesn’t do interviews, but we can guess that its mission is to completely dominate the world.

Faced with the same implacable enemy, you would expect that every country would see similar patterns of infection, and death. Or, you might expect to see the same figures from countries that carried out the same actions. Essentially, did a country lock down, or not.

However, if you do try to compare lock down vs. no lock down, the COVID mortality figures appear incomprehensible. Belgium, for example, entered lockdown on the 18th of March, whilst Belarus did not lock down at all. Belgium has a population of 11.5 million, while Belarus has 9.5 million.

Belgium, as of the 22nd of June, had suffered 9,696 COVID related deaths.

Belarus, as of the 22nd of June, had suffered 346 COVID related deaths.

The death rate in Belgium, per million of population, is 847.

The death rate in Belarus, per million of population, is 36.

Which means that the death rate in Belgium is over twenty-three times as high as in Belarus. Yes, two European countries sitting at approximately the same latitude, both starting with the letter ‘B’, and they have a vastly different rate of death. What can we make of such statistics? The simple answer would be to say that I don’t believe the figures from Belarus.

Alternatively, you could say that you don’t believe the figures from Belgium either, because they have the highest death rate from COVID, per million, in the entire world. Why? Who knows? However, I would caution against dismissing figures that you don’t like, or don’t feel make sense.

After all, there are other countries that did not lock down to any extent, such as Japan, where there has been a death rate of seven per million, or one fifth that of Belarus. I think it would take someone very bold to simply dismiss the Japanese figures.

In fact, the death rate in Japan is very nearly the same rate as the rate in New Zealand, which has had only twenty-two deaths, and has been lauded for its aggressive lockdown policy and low rate of deaths. The NZ death rate is 4.9 per million.

In short, if you look around the world, there are no patterns to be seen, and the death rates between countries vary by more than hundred-fold. However, nowhere in the world have they been weirder, or more difficult to interpret, than in England, and – even more curiously – in younger people.

Around ten days ago, someone pointed out to me an anomaly so strange, so unexpected, that I have since spent a considerable amount of time speaking to other doctors, and statisticians, to find an explanation. With no luck so far.

First, to provide some context. The most accurate figures to use, in studying the COVID epidemic, are excess deaths. That is deaths from all causes, over and above the average from the last few years. If, say, 10,000 people normally die in the first week in April, a figure of 15,000 deaths, in the same week this year, would represent 5,000 “excess” deaths.

This figure is of crucial importance. Mainly because it can be fully relied on. From personal experience, I know that what is written on a death certificate is often no more than an educated guess. I also know that there have also been huge differences across countries in the way that doctors have been instructed to record COVID related deaths.

If an elderly person goes downhill rapidly and dies in a care home, and they did not have a test, did they die of COVID, yes or no? Probably, possibly? Doctors in the UK have been advised to write yes, while in other countries they are more likely to write no. On the other hand, there are tales of doctors in the US being coached to write COVID on almost all death certificates, because the hospital is paid more money if they do so.

Which means that relying purely on the statistics for COVID recorded deaths may be highly misleading. However, you can absolutely rely on the diagnosis of death. It is a tricky clinical condition to miss.

So, if you want the outcome that is the most reliable indicator that something truly significant is going on, you need to look at excess mortality rates. If they stay the same, you can be reassured nothing serious is happening. This is true however much the diagnosis of a single condition rises.

To provide this data, as close to real-time as possible, EuroMOMO (European mortality monitoring activity) was established. Currently, it monitors changes in overall mortality in 24 different European countries. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are treated as separate countries. This becomes important.

EuroMOMO showed absolutely no change in mortality across all 25 countries until week eleven, the second week in March. It then rose rapidly, topping-out in week fourteen. By the end of May, everything had fallen back to normal. Which means the COVID mortality spike lasted ten weeks, from start to finish. Overall mortality rates are now lower than normal

It is fascinating that some countries showed a sharp rise in mortality, and some showed nothing. For example, Austria, Denmark, Finland and Germany – nothing. France, Belgium, Spain, the Netherlands, England – major spikes. Thirteen countries spiked, twelve did not.

Then, and here we get to the really weird part, is the data that was tucked away in a sub-section. A massive rise in mortality that was seen in only one country out of the twenty-five, and nowhere else. And a spike in the age group 15 to 44… one of age groups least vulnerable to COVID -19… and in England alone. Not in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. It lasted five weeks and then disappeared.

Frustratingly, the figures on causes of death are not available – some types of death can take a long time to be recorded e.g. deaths from accidents, or suicides. So, were all the excess deaths from COVID, it seems unlikely as the total number of recorded deaths in this age group has been less than five hundred since the start of the epidemic and that is not going to create such a spike.

Might lockdown have, in some way, have caused it? Might the loneliness of it have caused a rise in suicides? Or a surge in drug overdoses? Or other reckless behaviour?

I don’t know… but if we are to truly understand what happened during the pandemic, we need to find out.

[gamesguru]

So, what.  There's much we don't know about this virus?

Edited by gamesguru, 28 June 2020 - 12:21 PM.