88 replies to this topic

[kurdishfella]

that thread got closed because they said it was illegal but i dont think it is. because its not prescribed vitamins its otc vitamins which are legal. and injecting something natural your body needs is not illegal especially vitamins. Am I wrong? even if it is illegal, is it illegal to just discuss it? imagine if i got prison time for injecting vitamins. And yeah i got your point hip no need to keep repeating it I have made my choice. So far I have just injected twice but very badly (yesterday), but today i  will skip and do it tomorrow or monday.

 

btw about the saline that you hint at could be making me feel better, well this time i had no saline and i felt the same effect as when i got vitamin therapy (which is so overpriced btw).

Edited by kurdishfella, 20 March 2021 - 06:42 PM.

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Kurdishfella, if your're thinking about transdermal B12 from "B12 Oils" give the company a call--oops no phone number.

 

Or, maybe "Google Earth" their address to see what their headquarters looks like--oops no physical address given.

 

Well, at least you can email them.

 

Hope you have PayPal--it's the only payment option.

 

If you do email them, ask exactly what specific permeation enhancer they use to get around the "500 Dalton rule".  (B12 is about 1350 Daltons)

 

Also tell them to update their copyright declaration, which, as of this post is "Copyright © 2014 B12 Oils. All Rights Reserved. " 

 

"2014" yeah that shows attention to detail. LOL

 

 

[Advocatus Diaboli]

Kurdishfella <-----> Father kill us

 

Careful with what you inject

[Daniel Cooper]

Well, for what it's worth you can get B12 and thiamine in injectable form in ampoules and vials pretty readily.  B12 you can buy without a prescription from the UK and NZ and thiamine I've seen available from a Canadian pharmacy, both legitimately without a prescription.

 

Now whether you can import that into whatever country you are residing in is another issue. But if you follow good injection hygiene practices you should be reasonably safe with these type injections. It's fairly hard (but not impossible) to get yourself into trouble with B12 injections. Thiamine you need to read up and follow guidelines and not go crazy with the quantities.

 

You'd be way ahead of the game compared to injecting children's vitamin syrup.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 March 2021 - 08:47 PM.

[Hip]

If you do email them, ask exactly what specific permeation enhancer they use to get around the "500 Dalton rule".  (B12 is about 1350 Daltons)

 

I have had some email exchange with the creator of the Australian B12 transdermal oils, Dr Greg Russell-Jones, who is an expert in water-in-oil microemulsions (which is the permeation enhancer I think is used in these B12 oils).

 

Greg says that whilst the 500 dalton rule holds true under normal circumstances, encapsulating your compound in a microemulsion can draw molecules as large as 150,000 daltons across the skin. So microemulsions could be an convenient way of administering many peptides and proteins, as well as drugs and supplements.

 

Unfortunately he would not give me any details about how I could make my own microemulsions for various supplements and drugs, but his paper and patent I think should give clues. 

 

 

I tried to get Longecity members interested in experimenting with microemulsions in this thread, but no takers so far. If we could put out collective brains together, we should be able to figure out how to make our own microemulsions.

[Hip]

that thread got closed because they said it was illegal but i dont think it is. because its not prescribed vitamins its otc vitamins which are legal. and injecting something natural your body needs is not illegal especially vitamins. Am I wrong? even if it is illegal, is it illegal to just discuss it?

 

I imagine it was closed because they are concerned about the legal repercussions of promoting a dangerous practice online. If someone were to read your idea, try it themselves, and then come to harm, the forum could be sued. 

 

 

 

btw about the saline that you hint at could be making me feel better, well this time i had no saline and i felt the same effect as when i got vitamin therapy (which is so overpriced btw).

OK, well then we can rule out the saline infusion as being the cause of the benefits you experience. 

 

It may just be one vitamin in the vitamin therapy which is benefiting you. If you can narrow down to that specific vitamin, you could then try taking high oral doses of it. 

 

Do you know the vitamins and doses contained in the vitamin therapy?

Edited by Hip, 20 March 2021 - 08:20 PM.

[Hip]

Well, for what it's worth you can get B12 and thiamine in injectable form in ampoules and vials pretty readily.  B12 you can buy without a prescription from the UK and NZ and thiamine I've seen available from a Canadian pharmacy, both legitimately without a prescription.

 

It is hard to find injections in the methylcobalamin form, which is anecdotally the best form for treating ME/CFS (high-dose methylcobalamin has been shown to promote nerve regeneration).

 

This is in part because methylcobalamin in solution is rapidly destroyed by exposure to light in a matter of hours. So methylcobalamin vials have to be prepared in darkness, and must be wrapped to protect them from light. 

 

Some methylcobalamin injection suppliers are listed in this post.

 

However, I use the Australian B12 transdermal oils, because you actually get a larger dose in your bloodstream compared to injections (the transdermal oils will deliver an estimated 2000 mcg of B12 into the bloodstream, Greg told me, compared to the 500 mcg found in a typical injection), and the oils are much cheaper than injections (60 x 2000 mcg doses of the oil costs $50).

 

My experience with these B12 transdermal oils is detailed in this thread.

Edited by Hip, 20 March 2021 - 08:22 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

This site has the cyano, methyl, and hydroxo forms. I'm partial to the hydroxo form myself.

 

https://vitaminb12online.com/

 

I'm highly skeptical of dosing B12 transdermally, and in fact I'm skeptical of dosing most anything transdermally that isn't effective in very low doses as the skin is a barrier that's pretty much designed to keep substances from crossing it.  There are exceptions but in general it's difficult to get most compounds through the skin in a quantity that will have a significant systemic effect. Again, there are exceptions but transdermal delivery has a very niche role in drug delivery.

 

If you don't want to inject B12, I think you'd be far better served by sublingual rather than transdermal delivery. The oral mucosa is a much easier barrier to cross than the epidermis.

 

 

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 20 March 2021 - 08:59 PM.

[Hip]

With the transdermal B12 methylcobalamin + adenosylcobalamin I use, I get hit with a wave of tiredness and increased brain fog about 2 hours after applying the B12 oil, lasting for around 4 hours before clearing up. This wave of tiredness is sometimes reported with high-dose B12 injections. 

 

So that suggests a lot of B12 is being absorbed when using these B12 oils. I never get such tiredness using B12 sublingual tablets, or B12 intranasal administration.

 

This tiredness I believe is due to a transient hypokalemia (low blood potassium), which high doses of B12 are known to cause in some people. Drugs.com say that hypokalemia from B12 injections has even resulted in death. The hypokalemia is caused by the sudden demand for potassium, resulting from the red blood cell formation stimulated by the B12.

 

I found that if I take around 400 mg or so of oral potassium at the same time as applying the B12 oil, this prevents the wave of tiredness. So that confirms it is due to hypokalemia.

 

 

 

There is some controversy regarding whether sublingual B12 is absorbed. The oral mucous membranes like the skin can only absorb molecules up to around 500 daltons (ref: here), and as was pointed out above, vitamin B12 is around 1350 daltons.

 

The nasal mucous membranes on the other hand can absorb up to around 2000 daltons, I have read, so intranasal B12 should be absorbed. Indeed one study found up to 6% absorption from a B12 nasal spray. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hip, 20 March 2021 - 11:49 PM.

[Daniel Cooper]

There is some controversy regarding whether sublingual B12 is absorbed. The oral mucous membranes like the skin can only absorb molecules up to around 500 daltons (ref: here), and as was pointed out above, vitamin B12 is around 1350 daltons.
 

 

You're saying there is some controversy on whether sublingual B12 is absorbed whilst recommending transdermal B12?

 

 

 

 

[Hip]

You're saying there is some controversy on whether sublingual B12 is absorbed whilst recommending transdermal B12?

 

Transdermal B12 will not work either. Both oral and transdermal B12 will probably not cross the mucous membranes and skin.

 

Using microemulsion-based B12 transdermally will work, though.

[Daniel Cooper]

Using microemulsion-based B12 transdermally will work, though.

 

And the evidence for that is what exactly?

 

Tell me what's in your microemulsion based B12, how it's made, and what evidence exists that it works.

[Hip]

And the evidence for that is what exactly?

 

I provided the evidence that it works in my above post about hypokalemia. 

[Daniel Cooper]

I provided the evidence that it works in my above post about hypokalemia. 

 

With all due respect, that's not evidence. Your evidence isn't blinded, is subjective, and subject to the placebo effect.

 

Evidence would be measuring B12 plasma levels, applying this topical B12, then coming back some time later and measuring B12 again.

 

A very cheap thing to go do. Has the maker of this product not done that?

Edited by Daniel Cooper, 21 March 2021 - 03:19 PM.

[Hip]

Your evidence isn't blinded, is subjective, and subject to the placebo effect.

It's not subject to the placebo effect, because placebo involves the expectation of feeling better. When you think in advance of taking a treatment that you might feel better (which I did think), then you may be subject to the placebo effect (placebo = "I will please").

 

However, when you actually become worse as a result of treatment, as I did with the temporary wave of deep tiredness that hit me after the B12 administration, that is not the placebo effect.


 

Evidence would be measuring B12 plasma levels, applying this topical B12, then coming back some time later and measuring B12 again.
 
A very cheap thing to go do. Has the maker of this product not done that?

 
I agree it would be nice to test blood levels.
 
Are there any tests which would directly measure methylcobalamin levels in the blood? I had a look at B12 tests, but many of them do not measure B12 directly. 
 
If we want to test how much methylcobalamin is getting into the blood, it might be best to measure methylcobalamin directly.

[kurdishfella]

 Veins don’t like thick sticky syrup! In order to inject  thick substances that feel like syrup, you must dilute it with water. However, injecting a large amount of liquid can damage your veins. A compromise is to go for a 1:1 ratio, adding the same amount of water as your ingredient/substance. You need to inject  very slowly because there is a lot of liquid.

My plan to avoid getting bacteria and infections is to make sure the vitamin supplement has 1000mg of vitamin C in it. 

I keep messing it up and injecting into my skin resulting in swelling (subcutaneous ?)and partially in a vein. Im gonna do the veins in my hand as they are the easiest.  Also I figured out how to draw back the liquid without taking the pusher off and just pouring it in resulting in leaking , just use the syringe and pull air into it by drawing the pushing thing back to however high you want to fill it then put the head in a glass or wherever you put the vitamin liquid then push the air in (maybe dont need to do that since its not sealed) and then draw it back again and it will fill up, btw without the needle, after you done that then put the needle on and release some liquid to be free off bubbles. You know its injecting when you feel a cold feeling go up your arm. Its very slow to inject thats my issue with it.

 

(edit) maybe i wont do the hands, too much blood flow.

Edited by kurdishfella, 22 March 2021 - 06:03 AM.

[kurdishfella]

hopefully the failed injection will somehow still be absorbed into my blood.

my issue is when i put the needle in i dont see the flash of blood in the needle hub  / or in the gauge. It was very difficult to get it into my skin and when it was in i did feel some resistance of the vein. well this was a learning experience, will try again tomorrow.  The effects today are harder bones, able to flex my muscles strongly, and same as before stronger nerves hardened nails and teeth. And weirdly I felt my lungs open up and my breathing is easier.  reddit.com/r/biology/comments/ma9lt4/iron_and_vitamin_c/

Edited by kurdishfella, 22 March 2021 - 06:50 AM.

[kurdishfella]

ugh I just realized another problem, these effervescent vitamin tablets create a lot of bubbles when they break... maybe I need to break it in more water because not all of it breaks... or is it because im blowing air into the liquid from the syringe.. is there a way to remove the bubbles?

Edited by kurdishfella, 22 March 2021 - 08:26 AM.

[Hip]

I hope you don't mind open heart surgery, kurdishfella. 

 

One of the most frequent infections that intravenous drugs users get is endocarditis, a bacterial infection of the heart endocardium, including the heart valves. This is due to using dirty needles and unsterilized solutions for injection.

 

So if your heart valves get infected with bacteria, the doctors may have to open your chest up, and cut open your heart, in order to insert replacement valves.

Edited by Hip, 22 March 2021 - 03:27 PM.

[kurdishfella]

oh you actually have to pull the plunger back to see if its in a vein and blood will come doesnt come by itself

"".Once you think you’re in a vein, pull the plunger back to see if blood comes into the syringe. If so, and the blood is dark red and slow moving,you know that you’ve hit a vein. if no blood or only a very tiny amount of blood comes into the syringe when you pull back, you’re not in a vein.If there’s too much blood in your shot to tell if you’re properly registering, split the shot into two and dilute each half with water.you proceed to inject without being properly positioned in a vein, you’ll be putting your drugs into the tissue surrounding the vein, under the skin, or some other place. It will probably be painful and become swollen. " https://old.reddit.c...illing_in_when/

Edited by kurdishfella, 22 March 2021 - 07:45 PM.

[dan1882]

This thread reads like a strange horror movie oO. Please just stop it.

Even if the absorption rate of B12 isnt that good and lowers after reaching some level. 

Taking a slow release methylcobalamin shouldnt work as bad to increase B12 on a few weeks usage.

 

Whats the point of risking life to reach a goal a few days faster. 

[kurdishfella]

This poster says it takes 30 ml of air bubbles at once to cause a trouble when injected. is it true? https://www.quora.co...-be-seen-How-is

Sara Schreiner, works at Medicine and Healthcare
It takes 30+cc (the liquid equivalent on one ounce) of air to POTENTIALLY cause a problem. Your blood cells themselves contain oxygen.

Tiny air bubbles will not cause a problem- ever. They do not go to your brain, or any where else for that matter. Your body takes care of them and they are essentially absorbed. There supposedly are reports from Nazi experiments conducted on prisoners of war during WW II (the results of which because these experiments are far from being ethical are suppressed) that >50 ml of air injected into a vein in one go is fatal (from Page on www.ajol.info).

reddit.com/r/biology/comments/may7jp/is_there_any_way_to_remove_bubbles_from_unsealed/ How long in between shots can you do it then before the bubble/air left your body or builds up too fast before it can leave? reddit.com/r/biology/comments/mb9dau/how_much_air_can_you_inject_iv_before_it_becomes

maybe sublingual liquid or dissolvable tablets better option to inject

Edited by kurdishfella, 23 March 2021 - 07:12 AM.

[Rocket]

Anyone who wants to cook up stuff in their kitchen to inject needs to read up on steroid forums about getting nasty infections from injecting home brew substances. If you want to take the risk of going to a hospital then by all means take the risk. There are reasons whynthe educated bodybuilders sterilize their compounds and use filters.

Edited by Rocket, 24 March 2021 - 01:22 AM.

[Rocket]

This thread reads like a strange horror movie oO. Please just stop it.
Even if the absorption rate of B12 isnt that good and lowers after reaching some level.
Taking a slow release methylcobalamin shouldnt work as bad to increase B12 on a few weeks usage.

Whats the point of risking life to reach a goal a few days faster.

This whole forum has gone down hill. The one that gets me are the people who want to eliminate testosterone because someone someplace read that lower T equates to a healthier thymus. Oh wait then there was the male model who needed to gain 10 pounds of muscle in 6 weeks because his career depended on it and all the armchair experts here lined up to give him advice on steroids and growth hormone and insulin.... Longecity lately = shortlifegecity.

Edited by Rocket, 24 March 2021 - 01:28 AM.

[kurdishfella]

if your deficient in vitamins  can you be fine with overdosing on vitamins ?  this one has 2000mcg of b12 but if im deficient in that and since its stored in the liver it will just accumulate safely on the first two shots since the liver holds like 5mg of b12 or something.  iherb.com/pr/Solgar-Sublingual-Liquid-B-12-2-000-mcg-2-fl-oz-59-ml/22428 

But its only 1ml of liquid which is vastly less than others with 10 ml and its all water soluble vitamins so its very liquidy .

reddit.com/r/biology/comments/mbuike/injecting_vitamin_b_complex/

I think water soluble vitamins are fine to overdose on. Never heard anyone die from them.

So the first supplement i bought was too thick and too much liquid ml. The other effervescent tablet cause too many bubbles and requires too much liquid.

this one should be a success. It has no bubbles and little liquid required to get the doses. And the other ingredients seem fine.

Edited by kurdishfella, 24 March 2021 - 01:32 AM.

[dan1882]

 

if your deficient in vitamins  can you be fine with overdosing on vitamins ?  this one has 2000mcg of b12 but if im deficient in that and since its stored in the liver it will just accumulate safely on the first two shots since the liver holds like 5mg of b12 or something.  iherb.com/pr/Solgar-Sublingual-Liquid-B-12-2-000-mcg-2-fl-oz-59-ml/22428 

But its only 1ml of liquid which is vastly less than others with 10 ml and its all water soluble vitamins so its very liquidy .

reddit.com/r/biology/comments/mbuike/injecting_vitamin_b_complex/

I think water soluble vitamins are fine to overdose on. Never heard anyone die from them.

So the first supplement i bought was too thick and too much liquid ml. The other effervescent tablet cause too many bubbles and requires too much liquid.

this one should be a success. It has no bubbles and little liquid required to get the doses. And the other ingredients seem fine.

 

 

Well water soluble vitamins can do harm aswell in very big doses. See toxicity informations of each. 

Doesnt matter if you didnt heard some died from overdose, it happens though. Im pretty sure not a lot people injected stuff that shouldnt be injected. Accumulation of toxcitys can cause more harm. If you wont have organ damage or even dead keep away from that idea.

 

https://wicworks.fns...trientChart.pdf

 

Here you can read about toxcity symptoms. May check other sources aswell.

Edited by dan1882, 24 March 2021 - 08:08 AM.

[kurdishfella]

lmao do vein app finders work well 

r​eddit.com/r/biology/comments/mdodi9/i_cant_seem_to_find_a_vein/         

[kurdishfella]

I was gonna buy a vein finder machine but I finally become somewhat good at doing this. But it doesnt seem to work. Only works a tiny bit. No idea why. I only get a very small effect... I think it could be for multiple reasons 1. The supplements dont contain what they say they do. 2. I might have accidently got bacteria in the supplement because I dropped something dirty in there which broke the vitamins. 3. The substance seems to be too thick so I had to mix it with water but that could possibly ruin the vitamin content somehow because water is not pure water, all water has been used with chemicals which perhaps destroys vitamins when in contact.

 

So Im gonna buy actual vitamin ampoules meant for injections and it should be legal because its vitamins and as long as its not the exact same ones prescribed where i live, (or else where?) anyone know any sites

Edited by kurdishfella, 01 April 2021 - 06:45 AM.

[kurdishfella]

Really struggling to find a place that sells all the b vitamins and vitamin E and A.  Can only find one were they sell all b vitamins but one (folate) and most other animal vitamin shots seem to not include folate and b7 (or miss one else) for whatever reason (maybe not fully compatible). even though they say  b complex but only include 3 b vitamins very annoying. Most people just seem to want b12 so thats sold online the most. 

heres another good one https://www.vitaminq...ble-shots-1-box

I was thinking of using a vitamin preparation made for animals (not sure there is any difference though than those for humans). https://www.interche...s/introvit.html

It says made for IM but im sure IV will be fine its just because how much liquid there is and usually you shoot medicine thats a bunch in IM because you can inject faster and more at once.

I want to get vitamin C high dose too just to be safer from infections and whatnot (only 70mg). Maybe this will do https://www.interche...-b-complex.html or should I get another one with a higher dose n alone.

Edited by kurdishfella, 01 April 2021 - 01:47 PM.

[kurdishfella]

oh wow people have been injecting vitamins for animals for some time now didnt know that..

 

this one seems to have all eight b vitamins https://www.amazon.c...uct_top?ie=UTF8

gonna read the ingredients when I get it. someone said it was too thick, Oil base is best IM you can SubQ although you could end up with a lump at injection site.

 

this one has decent doses but only 6 b vitamins: https://www.amazon.c...e/dp/B00FEI2N7G and

https://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Vitamin-Complex-Injectable-Livestock/dp/B01DOFK0CA

 

 

this one has lower doses https://www.amazon.c...op?ie=UTF8&th=1

reddit.com/r/biology/comments/mifj0d/why_does_injecting_ivim_or_subq_sometimes_hurt/ 

 

The ones on amazon.com are out of stock but the UK amazon seems to be in stock https://www.amazon.c...y/dp/B00FEI2N7G , https://www.amazon.c...l/dp/B003C9LKA0 , https://www.amazon.co.uk/Durvet-Vitamin-Maxi-1000-250ML/dp/B07KKJD5G8 , https://www.amazon.co.uk/Durvet-2280-Yellow-Injection-Milliliter/dp/B00HYF181E

Ima check out ebay.com and their uk version too.

https://www.ebay.com...l-/283576006144

https://www.tractors...njection-500-ml

Edited by kurdishfella, 02 April 2021 - 12:55 PM.