82 replies to this topic

[jonano]

Hi

Last year I tryed to become a member with the Cryonics Institute. I was refused because of some of my projects involving Cryonics.

This year I tryed again to become a member but I was refused just because of this post:

http://www.imminst.o...f=61&t=13307&s=

Of course this project is not a serious project, it was just a way to get comments and feelings and to get knowledge about how to help the cryonics movement.

My main focus in my life is in the hip hop fashion.

I think I have the right to get a longer life if I want to but the cryonics institute does not want. I cannot pay for Alcor.

I cannot speak to the directors of CI, I find them very reclusive and I think it wont build a good image in cryonics. CI know that my life insurance is with them, 100 000$CAD.

I ask everyone seeing this message to support my case with CI by giving your comments and your name below this post.

Thank you for your consideration, I think 2 year of waiting is unfair and dangerous for my life. I will always be greatful if you help my case.

--Jon

Edited by Matthias, 10 February 2007 - 10:25 PM.

[garethnelsonuk]

If your life insurance policy is already in place and they are the beneficary then I would suggest that you cancel this until you can get an actual contract. If they are owner of the policy and you actually signed up but were turned down or excluded, then you should demand to have them surrender the policy. What I actually find slightly disturbing here is that insurance companies tend to write to the beneficary of a policy to confirm an insurable interest. If CI has confirmed it and a policy been issued, then what do they intend to do once it pays out? If you have no contract they are not even obliged to return any of it.

Your life insurance is $100000 CAD, this is roughly $87000 USD and should cover neurosuspension at Alcor. The only problem is the membership dues.

I have had issues with CI myself which some are aware of from private corrospondence and which have left me in a similar situation to yourself minus the financial tie (in other words, I am banned from CI membership, but do not have any money at risk with them). What annoys me is that when I did apply and was accepted for about 2 weeks, I still had a good chance of getting life insurance. Since that time due to a suspected kidney problem I have been refused life insurance (said kidney problem was suspected due to pains I was having, I have had a scan and other tests which have turned out clean, the whole issue was a side effect of a medication I was on). Since life insurance companies often ask if you have been previously refused and a person my age being refused would trigger alarm bells ringing, I am in quite a bad situation and hope to signup when I am older if I cannot figure out how to obtain funding now. Of course, this means higher insurance premiums and a longer period of risk.

Your enthusiasm in cryonics has at times been (to put it bluntly) delusional in a way that could be harmful to the field and this causes some understandable concern from some. However, I would like to remind everyone that someone with an unhealthy interest in running their own hospital and giving emergency treatment to people when they are incompetent to do so would not disqualify them from treatment by a legitimate hospital. When you consider that Robert Nelson (a man who unfortunately I share a surname with, though I doubt he is related) killed several people through his incompetence back in the 70s and is now being forgiven publically it does cause some concern.

http://www.cryonics....lson_Visit.html

[jonano]

If I become rich I will for sure go with Alcor. CI is not even good for their patients. They have no knowledge in cryo preservation. Alcor is far more professional.

I wish to become rich enough to go with Alcor.

I will try my fashion line to 1000 hip hop/streetwear retailers. If only 20% of them reply to my catalog and buy 2000$ per year. I think it will give me 400 000$ per year it will be enough to earn my longer life. If this 1000 streetwear retailers campaign does not work, I will try with another general retailers listing of about 15 000. Im starting a business searching for financing. I created a 16 pages french business plan, I also plan to hire a pro in startups financing. I only need 25 000$ to try my line. I understand that nobody is giving money away.

I am interested to create the Nanomedical Brain Research Foundation and all the patents, technology and knowledge will go for free to my cryonics organisation. And I dont want to give my technology to CI if they dont help me.

Here is one of my project that I am pround of, http://pureoforum.com/ or pureoforum.freepgs.com.

--Jon

[garethnelsonuk]

If you do not have the scientific or medical knowledge to work in the field do not attempt to do so until you have the required knowledge and a full understanding of the ethical issues (i.e you are taking on a responsibility for someone's life which may last several decades or even centuries - this is actually more responsibility than all parents today have for their children).

As to CI - stating "they have no knowledge in cryopreservation" is rather uncalled for, though I agree that Alcor do conduct themselves in a much more professional manner.

Signing up with Alcor does not require being rich, I suggest you read their prices in further detail.

My advice to you is this - get a decent job (even if you have to flip burgers), look after your mental and physical health and then signup with Alcor. Once you have a day job, then look at a business or similar if you are certain you have the skills and a product which will make it.

Your history of mental illness (and I hope I cause no offence in bringing this up) has in the past caused some potentially deadly situations with consequences reaching far beyond yourself. For this reason, if you are not currently working with a psychiatrist then please do so for your own good and for the good of others.

[jonano]

I am working and storing my money to launch my fashion line.

During the summer, I sell hip hop clothes in flea markets. My goal for this year is to store 5000$. You should really see what I am doing.

I have already a psychiatrist and I have meds. Im being treated and Im getting good everyday. I enjoy life everyday and Im sad to see how reclusive and close a cryonics organisation can be, this is unethical. I dont know if Alcor is like that, I hope not.

Bill Faloon is my example, he is investing millions of dollars in cryopreservation research like 21cm and SA.

I will put my money into good people to study nanomedical machines and the brain. I will do so only if I get 100 millions and more.

--Jon
www.jonathandespres.com

[garethnelsonuk]

From my own experience, CI's directors do respond, but their responses may not always be as polite as one would desire. What concerns me about your post here is that you have stated your life insurance policy is setup but you have been refused a contract.

Ben Best - if you are reading this then can you please give a comment?

I have at times out of frustration attacked and ranted about CI, though this is an issue which I feel is rather important.

[jonano]

CI is practicing elitism, only the best and good can have the right to become immortal.

[garethnelsonuk]

It seems more likely that it is merely bad financial control (i.e they should have refused your life insurance policy for example) than any form of discrimination or elitism. Unless you have specific reasons to believe what you do, please do not make uncalled for accusations.

[jordansparks]

I would ask everyone to please just ignore Jon Depres. He is dishonest and has the potential to give cryonics a bad name. Making the comparison to a hospital is not accurate. Physicians routinely decline to give treatment to patients who are not patients of record, and no physician has ever been required to make a contract with a hostile person.

Jordan Sparks

[garethnelsonuk]

From a legal viewpoint CI has the right to turn down a membership application for anyone for any reason and though this is of questionable ethics it is not my main concern.
My main concern is that he already has his life insurance in place yet is not being allowed to setup a contract. I am further concerned that Jonathan is being denied cryonics for his past mistakes which he made due to mental illness and not malacious intent. Giving him a contract may actually give him less reason to try and run a cryonics organisation himself. From what I have seen, he is not dishonest in everything and I believe he can be trusted to tell the truth when he is talking about certain things (for example I do believe that he actually has his life insurance in place, I do not believe that everyone listed on nanoaging's advisory board actually fully consented).

Following private corrospondence with johnathan I have been informed by him that ben best has told him he may sign up next year (possibly). I advised him that this may be the best he can get and he should simply accept it. It is much better than the treatment I received personally. Due to this treatment I have at times made unfair attacks upon CI and its methods of operation though you must understand that as I am no longer eligible for life insurance unless some company wants to take a risk on me, my banning from CI may just have cost me my family their lives. You cannot imagine how horrible that is when you realise that your only chance of being with the woman you love for more than 40 years is gone after feeling you had finally found an alternative to losing her.

Should an insurance company take a risk on me then the premiums may be just enough to prevent Alcor membership. Thankyou CI for taking my money, welcoming me, overcharging me and kicking me out when I complained. And thanks Mr Best for responding to a former supporter's concerns in such a wonderfully unprofessional manner. Please for the sake of the whole cryonics movement and for the sake of your patients and future patients do something about this mess.

I held myself back from posting this, but i've had enough. Holding back my feelings of this whole mess and having to smile when I see someone else sign up with CI without knowing whether or not they will actually make it into a cryostat someday is not something I can keep doing while keeping my sanity. Please, please adopt more ethical standards and a more professional manner. If you make a mistake (say, overcharging someone 3 times) then admit to your mistake rather than making up lies. (Apparently I paid for option 2 membership for the first year twice - monthly and annually, Andy Zawacki told me this after I complained about the extra payments - he couldn't explain why someone would pay twice for the same service and only refunded them after legal threats were made - if it had got to this point I doubt I would actually go to court for such a small sum when I would be putting CI's patients at risk, yet this is still very worrying).

[garethnelsonuk]

Note that to date I have not even received a simple "sorry" from anyone at CI and still kept my mouth shut for months.

[caston]

Gareth,

Thanks for bringing this up with me on msn. I am wondering if I too would be excluded due to having Aspergers.

[Anne]

Wait a second...are people actually refusing insurance/CR to people due to AS?!

[garethnelsonuk]

No

Jonathan has been refused due to his history of doing many dangerous things because of his delusions. However, none of these actions have been with malacious intent. Furthermore, they are retaining their status as beneficiary of his life insurance policy. In my own case I was banned after complaining about being overcharged with the membership dues.

[jordansparks]

CI has nothing to do with Jon's insurance policy. They have no control over what Jon does.

As for your situation, anyone who knows Andy will agree that he is a nice guy and was certainly acting in good faith. Threatening to sue people does not generally make you friends.

[jaydfox]

Hmmm...

If Jon is the current owner of the policy, and if CI won't have a contract with him, then Jon can simply make someone in his family the beneficiary while he tries to settle the dispute. If CI owns the policy, that's another matter altogether.

As for insurable interest, there is the question of how CI got designated the beneficiary in the first place. The laws are more relaxed now on insurable interest (I've heard that a couple decades ago, engaged couples couldn't get life insurance before they officially married, due to lack of insurable interest), but theoretically CI would have been notified in some way. Not a statement of fact on my part, just an assumption.

So from what little information we've been provided, it seems that things are a little fishy. However, let's remember that this is a rather one-sided presentation of what has happened, so let's not jump to conclusions. Until I hear CI's side of the story, I'm inclined not to let Jon's story affect my judgment of them.

CI has nothing to do with Jon's insurance policy. They have no control over what Jon does.

My primary assumption is that Jon is the owner of the policy, so this comment seems accurate. Even if CI once was working with Jon and there was insurable interest, if that relationship has been severed (for whatever reason) then Jon needs to consider a new beneficiary for his policy, or whether he even wants to keep the policy in force.

If he can afford the payments, it may be best for him to keep the policy. As old as the policy is, the incontestability clause will or soon will be in effect, which is to his benefit. (Not sure if Canadian policies have an incontestability period.) Also, trying to get a new policy in the future means he has to requalify. If he is diagnosed with a life threatening disease in the meantime, he may become uninsurable. Also, a new policy at a higher attained age may mean a higher premium, especially if it's a permanent policy. And if it is a permanent policy, he's well on his way to beginning a cash value, a process he has to start over if he gets a new policy.

[jaydfox]

If he can afford the payments, it may be best for him to keep the policy. As old as the policy is, the incontestability clause will or soon will be in effect, which is to his benefit. (Not sure if Canadian policies have an incontestability period.) Also, trying to get a new policy in the future means he has to requalify. If he is diagnosed with a life threatening disease in the meantime, he may become uninsurable. Also, a new policy at a higher attained age may mean a higher premium, especially if it's a permanent policy. And if it is a permanent policy, he's well on his way to beginning a cash value, a process he has to start over if he gets a new policy.

Disclaimer: Of course, these details and more can Jon go over with his life insurance agent. I do not presume to be in a position to know what's best for Jon. These were just generalizations, not specific to Jon's case.

[garethnelsonuk]

CI has nothing to do with Jon's insurance policy.  They have no control over what Jon does.

As for your situation, anyone who knows Andy will agree that he is a nice guy and was certainly acting in good faith.  Threatening to sue people does not generally make you friends.

This was as a last resort. Allow me to repeat, I would not actually take legal action against CI as it would put their patients at risk.

[jonano]

Now we need to be a friend to directors to achieve life extension. What kind of business is this ?

Everyone should have access to meds, this is how it works in my country, Canada. Unfortunately the United States dont work like that.

I never spoke to Andy and Andy didnopt spoke against or for me.

[garethnelsonuk]

Regarding insurance:

http://www.cryonics.org/funding.html

We advise that all members make CI the owner of the policy - this strengthens the position of there is a dispute or litigation with Receivers or other third parties.

[jonano]

Jordan, if you would be in my situation, would you not wish to get help and support ? Ignoring my case is not good. You speak about Andy as if I would be his opposite. I am a nice guy too. I am a good person even if I solicitate money for cryonics. It does not make me a bad person.

--Jon

[jonano]

> hi ben
>
> I want to know if I can become a member now with your org.

Hi Jon,

One of the Directors pointed-out that you had
been soliciting money within ten days of our meeting:

http://www.cryonet.o...p.cgi?msg=28673

The Directors are still not comfortable with you
becoming a CI Member. They may consider your application
in another year -- Novemeber 2007.

If you wish to discuss this by phone you can call
me Sunday evening or some evening early next week.

-- Ben

[jonano]

CI should clearly state that is is forbidden to solicit money for cryonics. I didnot know it.

[benbest]

Refusing Membership in a cryonics organization
is a very serious matter and it is not something
any of us at the Cryonics Institute would take
lightly. But our first responsibility is to our
current Members and Patients.

A year ago the conduct of Jon Despres was such
that the Directors of our organization felt that his
Membership and possible conduct was potentially
detrimental to CI. I felt that there were indications that
Jon would reform and that his Membership should be
re-considered in one year. At the end of November
the Directors decided that a recent solicitation
of money for an ill-considered cryonics project
by Jon showed that he had not reformed adequately.
Jon is a young man and his life is not in danger,
as far as we know. The majority opinion was that
if Jon were appropriately informed of his behavior
and given another year to demonstrate improvement
his Membership might be appropriate. We would
reconsider his Membership in November 2007.

In response to this, however, Jon has made threats
of lawsuits and of destroying CI that do not bode
well for his future Membership. I regret this situation
because I hate the thought of denying anyone Membership.

If Jon has made the Cryonics Institute the beneficiary
of his insurance policy, this was done without our
knowledge or consent. We have never seen the insurance
policy to which he refers. We suggest that he change
the beneficiary of that policy to someone other than
the Cryonics Institute.

The only other person who the Cryonics Institute has
ever prohibited Membership to has been Gareth Nelson.
Gareth over-paid his Option Two Membership through
PayPal when he joined initially -- 3 payments totaling
more than what was required. This was his mistake,
not CI's. CI's Facilities Manager Andy Zawacki
suggested to Gareth that we could refund the amount
of overpayment. Instead Gareth demanded a full refund
of all the fees that he had paid and threatened our
organization with legal action. Our Membership fees
are normally non-refundable, but in this case we gave
him a full refund and told him that future Memberships
from him would not be welcome.

The Cryonics Institute did not make any PayPal
charges to Gareth, all PayPal charges were initiated
by him. CI does not steal, through PayPal or
otherwise. Our integrity and reputation are
important to us.

It is an understandable mistake for someone to
accidently pay twice or misunderstand the
instructions. Such errors can be rectified. It
is also possible to rectify misunderstandings that
have resulted in ill-will. Gareth did not respond to
my last e-mail message to him on 3-August-2006.

I think Gareth understands that he overreacted in
his accusations. I want to acknowledge his
intelligence and interest in advancing cryonics. But
I also want him to acknowledge that CI does not
steal and that the PayPal charges he incurred were
entirely the results of his actions.

Because I am making an official statement on
behalf of the Cryonics Institute after considerable
discussion with our attorney and Directors, it would
be too difficult to engage in a back-and-forth
argument about these matters. Therefore I do not
expect to be posting any more on this thread.

-- Ben Best, President
Cryonics Institute

[garethnelsonuk]

Though Ben Best has stated he will not be replying further on this thread, I would like to make clear that I never authorised the disputed charges. I am still waiting for any acceptance from someone at CI that they were at fault both in the way the charges were taken (an honest mistake it seems) and in how it was handled afterwards. Following the incident I grew deeply suspicious of any other cryonics organisation (including Alcor - though due to contact with their staff I am very confident in their service, my only concern is financial).

My criticisms of CI's general operations I can admit were over the top (though I do still have concerns over details such as emergency contact details etc, though I understand these details are given to members). A simple "sorry" would however go a long way in resolving this issue. I swear on my own life and on the life of my wife and children that I did not make the charges under dispute. It was only after Andy's refusal to accept the mistake that I felt the need to make any threats in order to recover my money. Previously to this Andy had been very helpful in guiding me through the signup process and providing me with general information about CI.

With regards to Jon, his behaviour has indeed been out of order (I was aware of his delusional practices but not of his legal threats), but following private corrospondence with him I advised him to accept your offer of membership next year. If his life insurance was made out without CI's consent then this is highly unusual though I will accept your side on this.

Edited by garethnelsonuk, 05 December 2006 - 11:55 PM.

[jaydfox]

Thank you for clearing matters up, Ben. I realize that under the circumstance, the more information you give the more difficult, when at a time like this some members of the community would like more information rather than less. I for one am satisfied, but cannot speak for the rest. At any rate, thank you for the information provided.

A matter of concern was the insurance policy, and I am satisfied with your explanation. My previous personal (i.e., NOT professional) advice to Jon is to change the beneficiary to someone else until this matter is resolved, or to cancel the policy. I would personally change the beneficiary rather than cancel the policy, but that's a matter for Jon to discuss with his life insurance agent.

[garethnelsonuk]

Having just got off the phone with Ben, he still does not accept that my own situation is in any way CI's fault. This is disappointing to say the least.

My advice to anyone who wishes to sign up with CI - only ever pay via cheque, cash or postal order. Though it must be asked who would trust an organisation with their life that they cannot trust with their money.

[bgwowk]

Just for my own edification, is it possible for organizations to "pull" money via PayPal? I thought PayPal transactions were always initiated by the payor. If payees can draw more money than payors authorize, I would like to know about this, and how one can protect oneself.

[garethnelsonuk]

Paypal offers preapproved payments and subscriptions, I used a subscription with CI from the button on their site.

[jordansparks]

You do understand how PayPal works, right? It's entirely under the control of the person making the payment.

Jordan Sparks