671 replies to this topic

[Brainbox]

Bible, book of placebo's.
What's all the fuss about?

I could make this a very long post, explaining that I mean "placebo" not in the strict medical sense. And that human organisational structures (movements) took this little book out of perspective. This weekend I was in former eastern Germany. You know, what once was the communist DDR. I did speak to some people there. A high portion of the former DDR inhabitants wish that it never changed. One guy told me after a long conversation with a feeling of nostalgia "If they only would have alowed us to travel, these times were not that bad". The effect of another little book written by someone called Marx. (No, not Groucho, although it wouldn't have made any difference).
People need guidance given by people that give guidance even if this guidance manifests itself in the form of oppression. And if they are relieved of it, they desperately want it back.

Edited by brainbox, 29 May 2007 - 01:59 AM.

[william7]

So, regardless of whether you want to sweep this under the rug or not, it is clear that this series of phrases in the Bible are clearly WRONG. They are erroneous, not true, incorrect and false. regardless of whether the intention is good or not, and whether they fulfill that intention well or not, the information is incorrect.

Now that we have established that the Bible does in fact contain errors, let us move on to a direct contradiction. From the list above:

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

How can 2 and 7 be taken aboard? Maybe this is another example of an inconsequential fact in the Bible, and it doesn't realy matter? Like the rest of the Noahs Flood story.

Yes, there are things in the Bible that appear to be wrong or contradictory. I'm not a theologist with all the answers. The Bible is like science. It covers many areas with a large body of literature. My Bible education came from self-studying a wide range literature I was able to obtain for free. I'm still studying.

I admit, I can't say exactly how God and Noah built and stocked the Ark. I've never studied the matter closely. I've always focused on why God had Noah build the Ark and why God caused a catastrophic flood to destroy the population. Why God does what He does and His plan for humanity are of chief concern when I study Scripture.

[basho]

Why God does what He does and His plan for humanity are of chief concern when I study Scripture.

Why does God do what He does?

[zoolander]

Now that's a good ******* question my friend? Yes please tell us Elijah

[Aegist]

The Bible is like science.

ROFL.
Nu uh.

I admit, I can't say exactly how God and Noah built and stocked the Ark. I've never studied the matter closely. I've always focused on why God had Noah build the Ark and why God caused a catastrophic flood to destroy the population. Why God does what He does and His plan for humanity are of chief concern when I study Scripture.

So basically you are saying "I can't prove that the lord of the rings is a true story, but I do want to know why Frodo decided to take the ring, because that is really important...."

You are willing to overlook the facts of the matter because you are so narrow mindedly focussed on the affairs of the characters, on the single assumption that the story is true.

1. Assume story is true.
2. focus wholeheartedly on attributes within the story
3. Ignore facts contradicting the validity of the story because that isn't what matters. What really matters is imagined sub-plot lines to the story. That is, what goes on in the story, which the story doesn't actually describe.
4. We have now succesfully created a mental diversion big enough to allow double think of a collosal scale.

[william7]

Why God does what He does and His plan for humanity are of chief concern when I study Scripture.

Why does God do what He does?

Yes please tell us Elijah

God is trying to give us a perfect law that will enable us to live in peace and harmony and enable us to live a much longer life. The Scriptures are fairly clear on this point. I've been telling you guys this on a regular basis. Are you trying to say you don't pay any attention to my posts?

[JohnDoe1234]

Elijah, I hope I am not putting words in their mouths, but I think they meant it on a broader sense, as in... Why is he even bothering with us? This infinitely powerful, all knowing, perfect god seems to have his attention misplaced, Surely he could have made us more resilient, smarter, or stronger... etc. Hell, we'll be able to make better organisms in the coming century, why are we his pride? What is the point of an infinitely powerful, knowing, perfect god doing what he does (e.g. make a bunch of little creatures and make them battle out on a giant soap opera for a spot in some magical land)

Why does god need to filter us out? He should have just done the shit correctly in the first place...

EDIT: Typo

Edited by Joseph, 29 May 2007 - 09:50 PM.

[zoolander]

From another interesting post

Elijah and luv2increase

Bandwagon effect
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bandwagon effect is the observation that people often do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same. The effect is often pejoratively referred to as herding instinct, particularly as applied to adolescents. Without examining the merits of the particular thing, people tend to “follow the crowd”. The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success.

sounds reasonable to me?

Elijah, this one outlines a particular bias I've seen in you when trying to justify the bible

Confirmation bias
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

Confirmation bias is an area of interest in the teaching of critical thinking as the skill is misused when rigorous critical scrutiny is applied to evidence supporting a preconceived idea but not to evidence challenging the same preconception.

[Aegist]

Elijah, this one outlines a particular bias I've seen in you when trying to justify the bible

Confirmation bias
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.

For example, trying to tell people that the Bible is attempting to tell people to live as vegans. If you can find 4 statements in the bible which appear to support veganism, I can find 40 that clearly support meat eating.

And yet you still reach your specific counter-evidenced conclusion....

[Lazarus Long]

You can tie the two forms of bias described by Zoo and LF for both Elijah and Luv2 together with Blind Spot Bias.

2. Bias blind spot - the tendency not to compensate for one’s own cognitive biases.

[zoolander]

and a few more as well. We all suffer from these biases and unfortunately it's impossible to assess one's own bias without being bias.

[Brainbox]

Conformation bias. This is exactly the point I have with these discussions. And why I took the freedom to post some short remarks that on first inspection did not contribute, but that constitutes the core issue in my opinion.

Looking at the bible, it's just a book. Nobody knows exactly its history. Nothing magical or special IMO. But it is used and enhanced / adapted by religious movements to act as the cornerstone of the definition of their religious concept.

Every attempt to criticise causes it's followers to put the bible on an even higher level of holiness, because that's the only defence against rational criticism. Criticising the bible has an opposite effect and will not work. Never.

Now we are in a situation where metaphysical concepts are used to try to criticise the bible. Just a little book. It's like an arms race. A futile arms race.

It is not a technical issue. IMO it's a social / psychological / demographical issue. 80% of the human population are in need of some form of guidance. They need religion, counselling, new-age, even communism, you name it.

In economical terms: demand is very high, it’s a booming market. If rational or irrational is irrelevant. After all the discussions I had about this, I came to the conclusion that this is the core of the matter.

Resistance is futile. It's here to stay. Let's try to become friends and learn from each others viewpoints

[JohnDoe1234]

I like what you said brainbox... however, I think that if we keep trying as hard as we can, and we keep producing new materials and arguments for the coming generations, we will continue to see religion's grip slipping...

We can only work each generation so far...

[william7]

From another interesting post

Elijah and luv2increase

QUOTE 
Bandwagon effect
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The bandwagon effect is the observation that people often do (or believe) things because many other people do (or believe) the same. The effect is often pejoratively referred to as herding instinct, particularly as applied to adolescents. Without examining the merits of the particular thing, people tend to “follow the crowd”. The bandwagon effect is the reason for the bandwagon fallacy's success.


sounds reasonable to me?

This definitely doesn't apply to me. I was moved to study the Bible in 1989 while in prison. The type of religion I was called into is very rare. I met only one other prisoner who was following a similar set of beliefs as mine. Most of the prisoners and staff were Muslim, Christian Identity, Aryan Nation, catholic, protestant, etc. My family is protestant and feel my religious beliefs are totally wrong.

Elijah, this one outlines a particular bias I've seen in you when trying to justify the bible

QUOTE 
Confirmation bias
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.

Confirmation bias is an area of interest in the teaching of critical thinking as the skill is misused when rigorous critical scrutiny is applied to evidence supporting a preconceived idea but not to evidence challenging the same preconception.

I don't believe this applies to me either. When I went back to prison in 1976, I started a serious program of self-study and search for truth. I've read more books and thought more deeply about what I was reading than most people ever do. From 1977 to 2005, I did not own or watch television. I rarely listened to the radio in the beginning and didn't have access to one most of the time. In 1978, I stopped reading all junk literature and focused completely on educational literature. I've made it a point to be honest, unbiased, and critical in my thinking. Of course, I'm naturally biased in favor of God and the Bible because I see it as the ultimate truth and the truth we need to live our lives by.

[Karomesis]

Why the %@$# is this thread still in existence?


is this like ....myth and bullshit VS fact and reason?

Of course, I'm naturally biased in favor of God and the Bible because I see it as the ultimate truth and the truth we need to live our lives by.

your vision is worthless, and your admission of blatant bias only serves to solidify my thoughts of you as one who is unreasonable in his thought process. While I'm usually against Ad hom attacks, I think the data indicates you are a madman. if the mods want to censor that, I have evidence of his madness and it would in fact be you who are being unreasonable.

Every attempt to criticise causes it's followers to put the bible on an even higher level of holiness, because that's the only defence against rational criticism. Criticising the bible has an opposite effect and will not work. Never.

Brainbox, you're too smart to say stuff like that. I am a shining example of what happens when your belief system fall to pieces. I chose to embrace reason and logic and do away with silly myths like religion once I realized it was all lies and an attempt at power by charlatans and frauds. at its very least religion clouds ones thoughts, or in their extreme justifies murder and similar horrors.

I promise you the people on this forum http://www.exchristian.net/ would disagree strongly with your assessment.

[Brainbox]

Brainbox, you're too smart to say stuff like that. I am a shining example of what happens when your belief system fall to pieces. I chose to embrace reason and logic and do away with silly myths like religion once I realized it was all lies and an attempt at power by charlatans and frauds. at its very least  religion clouds ones thoughts, or in their extreme justifies murder and similar horrors.

I promise you the people on this forum http://www.exchristian.net/   would disagree strongly with your assessment.

I guess I should considder this a compliment

I think we agree on this.

It is not a technical issue. IMO it's a social / psychological / demographical issue. 80% of the human population are in need of some form of guidance. They need religion, counselling, new-age, even communism, you name it.

Presumably you and the people at exchristian.net do not belong to this 80%, which is, of coarse, just an estimate. A lot of people, probably most people, are very sensitive in keeping their comfort-zone. Like this example I gave before of the ex-communist-DDR citizen, which surprised me a lot. Furthermore, a lot of similar people like him, but in the religious arena, are happy the way they are. I also learned not to mess that up.
In a way we all have our religious, or more generic, our dogmatic themes. I think science has it's dogmatic issues as well. Just try to explain to a western traditional doctor that you are taking supplements and want to check some of your blood values for preventive purposes. Great chance that this will become a most hilarious conversation. Or science behind and marketing on behalf of alternative energy sources which is a very difficult issue even for some scientists. Not to mention the climate change issue that is politicalized up to a level that is not healthy IMO. So it are scientists that display their cognitive disorders as well. And I wonder what my conformation bias is in what I just said or what other cognitive issues I might have.

I guess we all are only human.

[Brainbox]

IWe can only work each generation so far...

Yeah, I have my thoughts on this as well. Let's consider the probability long or infinite lifespans will indeed become reality before our social awareness get's a major update......

[william7]

While I'm usually against Ad hom attacks, I think the data indicates you are a madman. if the mods want to censor that, I have evidence of his madness and it would in fact be you who are being unreasonable.

So you must be without any biases and blessed by the pope or something? Or maybe you're a bona-fide, infallible psychiatrist then?

[JohnDoe1234]

Oh, no... I am planning to still being here, and I plan to keep engaging myself in these types of debates, but I am just saying that we need to keep providing new arguments and materials that children can access when they are in their curious stages, this will decrease their likelihood of falling into religion...

Basically... we can only expect to push a generation's beliefs so far, but with each successive generation it gives us even more wiggle-room.

EDIT:

So, even though we can't push Elijah's bible-wall down, there will be less like him in the future at the rate we are going, I think we are doing a fabulous job, but as many here also believe... this thread has indeed jumped the shark, and I think we Atheists and Agnostics here should try to focus our power on a singular project... though these aimless debates are extremely fun... I just think we are at a dead end, and our time is best suited while working on something like a video, or a paper...

[william7]

I actually got to read and research alot about the bible and the science view today because of this and other forums.

Keep studying both science and the Bible with an open mind. Science and the Bible can coexist and cooperate as they have in the past. And they must for any real substantial progress to be made.

There are just so many things that point against the bible.
And others which point for it (but they mostly point for the science way aswell).

Checkout this video below. There are a lot of scientists that believe in intelligent design and see the error of materialistic thinking.

The main problem is explaining howcome if the world according to the bible was created about 6000 years ago, howcome we have evidence of older humans and older rocks/trees/fossils?

That's what some fundamentalists believe. Not all believe this. Don't let atheists stereotyping of fundamentalists mislead you. I for one believe in a much longer creation that's consistent with what science sees. And there are many others who think and believe the same way.

And besides, the bright side about immortaltiy is that it dosen't delete the existance of god.
And immortal belivers will be able to serve him forever.

Not only will immortality not delete the existence of God, God will eventually make His home on earth with man so we will be able to live immortally. Revelation 21:1-4.

And don't pay any attention to Joseph and the others. Many of these guys hate God because they love sin.

[Aegist]

I actually got to read and research alot about the bible and the science view today because of this and other forums.

Keep studying both science and the Bible with an open mind. Science and the Bible can coexist and cooperate as they have in the past. And they must for any real substantial progress to be made.

Science does just fine without the Bible thanks.

There are just so many things that point against the bible.
And others which point for it (but they mostly point for the science way aswell).

Checkout this video below. There are a lot of scientists that believe in intelligent design and see the error of materialistic thinking.

Such a deception. Intelligent Design is not a competing theory. End of story. No real scientist gives it the time of day.

That's what some fundamentalists believe. Not all believe this. Don't let atheists stereotyping of fundamentalists mislead you. I for one believe in a much longer creation that's consistent with what science sees. And there are many others who think and believe the same way.

Seriously elijah, why paint it as if Atheists are making this stuff up? No one is misleading anyone when it comes to the 6000 year young earth creationism paradigm. I talk to these people everyday. I see videos made by them. I read their websites. Atheists don't deceive people about the ludicrous nature of the amazingly common christian beliefs. Christians on the other hand often deceive people about the scientific take on things, by saying incredibly unqualified statements like: "There are a lot of scientists that believe in intelligent design and see the error of materialistic thinking" which is just patently untrue.

And besides, the bright side about immortaltiy is that it dosen't delete the existance of god.
And immortal belivers will be able to serve him forever.

Not only will immortality not delete the existence of God, God will eventually make His home on earth with man so we will be able to live immortally. Revelation 21:1-4.

And don't pay any attention to Joseph and the others. Many of these guys hate God because they love sin.

LOL. Love sin. Coming from the guy who has been in jail how many times? Tell us more about sin, I clearly don't know enough....

[Karomesis]

And don't pay any attention to Joseph and the others. Many of these guys hate God because they love sin.

[g:)] indeed I do....especially illicit sex. [sfty] and orgies when I get the chance.

[Aegist]

Thanks to the RichardDawkins.net mailing list:
http://video.google....278760369344626

Unedited interview for "The Root of All Evil?" with Alister McGrath, an ex-atheist and writer of
"Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life"
and more recently:
"The Dawkins Delusion?"


PS: LiveForever, how do I embed Google videos into the forum?


Edit by Live Forever:
Here it is embedded:

(click on edit, and you can see the code, or here is the thread describing the YouTube and Google codes)

Edited by Live Forever, 31 May 2007 - 04:45 AM.

[luv2increase]

No real scientist gives it the time of day.

What exactly is your definition of a real scientist? I guess all of the scientist is which I noted in a few pages back were not real scientists? What all have you contributed to science that makes you better than them?

LOL. Love sin. Coming from the guy who has been in jail how many times? Tell us more about sin, I clearly don't know enough....

Ok, I know that Elijah's statement was a tad uncalled for and judgmental, but this statement is clearly an immature cheap shot. Seriously, how many people in the world today would have gone to jail if they would have been caught doing their illegal activities? Some people get caught, some people don't. You can't be making statements like this for someone in your position. If you would notice, Elijah has since changed his ways many many years ago, yet you seem to be judging him from his 'past'.

I think you owe Elijah an apology. Do you believe in apologies? Or is your ego too huge since you've never drank, smoked, or done anything illegal and/or sinned in your life???

Grow up. Whether you believe in the Bible or not, many people would consider your statement wrong.

[luv2increase]

And don't pay any attention to Joseph and the others. Many of these guys hate God because they love sin.

This may or may not be the case for some Atheists. It is human nature to sin. I believe the problem stems from education, particularly within the science arena, and traumatic events which happened to them in there lives which ultimately resulted in their hatred toward God and all who believe in God.

I have noticed much hatred within this thread geared towards Christianity. Have you noticed Elijah that we don't likewise exhibit this behavior towards the non-believers? I have made a few, possibly negative posts, but they were solely in rebuttal and defense rather than in an offensive manner.

But the main thing is, is that we are all human, thus causing all of us to be subject to sinning. It is for us mortals to ask God for forgiveness of our sins. What a forgiving and loving Father!

[JohnDoe1234]

And don't pay any attention to Joseph and the others. Many of these guys hate God because they love sin.

It isn't god we hate as it would be foolish to hate something that we believe does not exist... And yes, sinning is very fun as you already know...

[william7]

No real scientist gives it the time of day.

What exactly is your definition of a real scientist? I guess all of the scientist is which I noted in a few pages back were not real scientists? What all have you contributed to science that makes you better than them?

LOL. Love sin. Coming from the guy who has been in jail how many times? Tell us more about sin, I clearly don't know enough....

Ok, I know that Elijah's statement was a tad uncalled for and judgmental, but this statement is clearly an immature cheap shot. Seriously, how many people in the world today would have gone to jail if they would have been caught doing their illegal activities? Some people get caught, some people don't. You can't be making statements like this for someone in your position. If you would notice, Elijah has since changed his ways many many years ago, yet you seem to be judging him from his 'past'.

I think you owe Elijah an apology. Do you believe in apologies? Or is your ego too huge since you've never drank, smoked, or done anything illegal and/or sinned in your life???

Grow up. Whether you believe in the Bible or not, many people would consider your statement wrong.

Thanks for the hand! What Aegist doesn't understand is that I now hate sin because it leads to death both spiritually and physically. I hang out on this website because I'm always looking for ideas and ways to increase my life span. Sin decreases your life span. People serious about a long life would do well to take a close examination of their lives to see if they're not sinning in some way or susceptible to life threatening sin.