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Maximizing Resveratrol Effectiveness


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#511 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:10 PM

mikeinnaples - florida (sorry, the lab we will use is in California)
velopismo - North of LA (once I get the details in January, I will email you.)

ilanso

That mg/kg ratio is more of a fiction until we have affordable ways to personally measure the tissue bioavailability - or someone like Anthony publishes such results at different intake levels.


Personally, trying to do the {spray} -> powder skin -> {spray again} for DMSO hasn't proven very well for me. It get alot of powder afterwards, and it's kind of gloppy after the second spray. I then placed a gram of rsv from one of my capsules in a small glass cup, sprayed it down and mixed it before spreading it over my arm. After it 'dried' I noticed some powder left (quite a bit of powder I believe), and I then used the spray which basically took care of the rest of the powder after a while.

I have to say 4 things about this method that I quickly found out:
1- I have to use something instead of my hands to spread it on my arm and use long sleeves at night, as I am around my son alot and don't want him to hold my hand with this stuff. I continue not to recommend rsv for kids, as we are not sure about its affect on development.
2- I am one of those that usually has their taste buds react when something is taken using IV, or when I give blood. My taste buds simply react, and I can notice the difference and an unusual taste in my mouth. Unlike taking a capsule, this method gives me a that reaction as well.
3- Although I can notice a taste, it appears to take quite a bit of time to absorb the DMSO, I guess I was thinking it would be faster. It maybe inconvenient for some folks without covering it up somehow... like a patch I suppose.
4- I have a light tan, and notice that my left arm where I used the rsv+DMSO is now slightly lighter than my right arm. My wife is asking me if I plan to lighten my skin with the stuff.

I will continue this for a bit longer, by mixing it in the DMSO before I use it.

Just posting my thoughts at this time with DMSO.
A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 17 December 2007 - 08:19 PM.


#512 ilanso

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:34 PM

Anthony: 1- I have to use something instead of my hands to spread it on my arm and use long sleeves at night, as I am around my son alot and don't want him to hold my hand with this stuff. I continue not to recommend rsv for kids, as we are not sure about its affect on development.
2- I am one of those that usually has their taste buds react when something is taken using IV, or when I give blood. My taste buds simply react, and I can notice the difference and an unusual taste in my mouth. Unlike taking a capsule, this method gives me a that reaction as well.


1. I suggest you use rubber gloves when applying. (Alternatively, the back of a beer bottle or glass). As to the application site, maybe the bend of the knees or that place where the sun don't shine ;)
2. We now have the second human resvemeter - too bad there is the appearance of a conflict of interest - we couldn't send you our samples for objective testing, but could learn from what you have to say about the efficacy of various administration methods.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#513 missminni

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 08:56 PM

mikeinnaples - florida (sorry, the lab we will use is in California)
velopismo - North of LA (once I get the details in January, I will email you.)

ilanso

That mg/kg ratio is more of a fiction until we have affordable ways to personally measure the tissue bioavailability - or someone like Anthony publishes such results at different intake levels.


Personally, trying to do the {spray} -> powder skin -> {spray again} for DMSO hasn't proven very well for me. It get alot of powder afterwards, and it's kind of gloppy after the second spray. I then placed a gram of rsv from one of my capsules in a small glass cup, sprayed it down and mixed it before spreading it over my arm. After it 'dried' I noticed some powder left (quite a bit of powder I believe), and I then used the spray which basically took care of the rest of the powder after a while.

I have to say 4 things about this method that I quickly found out:
1- I have to use something instead of my hands to spread it on my arm and use long sleeves at night, as I am around my son alot and don't want him to hold my hand with this stuff. I continue not to recommend rsv for kids, as we are not sure about its affect on development.
2- I am one of those that usually has their taste buds react when something is taken using IV, or when I give blood. My taste buds simply react, and I can notice the difference and an unusual taste in my mouth. Unlike taking a capsule, this method gives me a that reaction as well.
3- Although I can notice a taste, it appears to take quite a bit of time to absorb the DMSO, I guess I was thinking it would be faster. It maybe inconvenient for some folks without covering it up somehow... like a patch I suppose.
4- I have a light tan, and notice that my left arm where I used the rsv+DMSO is now slightly lighter than my right arm. My wife is asking me if I plan to lighten my skin with the stuff.

I will continue this for a bit longer, by mixing it in the DMSO before I use it.

Just posting my thoughts at this time with DMSO.
A

3- Although I can notice a taste, it appears to take quite a bit of time to absorb the DMSO, I guess I was thinking it would be faster. It maybe inconvenient for some folks without covering it up somehow... like a patch I suppose.
do you mean it takes a long time to absorb into your arm? mine absorbs within moments. I no longer have the aftertaste in my mouth. I only had that the first time I used and I think that was because I used too much. It's a real tricky procedure to do on the arm...it took a while for
me to work out a neat system. In the begining I used too much DSMO and it was messy with dripping and powder flying off when I would spray.
I guess ideally would be to mix it in a little sprayer, if that doesn't effect the stability of the res. maybe a couple days dosage.


#514 Anthony_Loera

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 09:24 PM

do you mean it takes a long time to absorb into your arm? mine absorbs within moments. I no longer have the aftertaste in my mouth. I only had that the first time I used and I think that was because I used too much. It's a real tricky procedure to do on the arm...it took a while for
me to work out a neat system. In the begining I used too much DSMO and it was messy with dripping and powder flying off when I would spray.
I guess ideally would be to mix it in a little sprayer, if that doesn't effect the stability of the res. maybe a couple days dosage.


The rsv + DMSO mixture was noticeably wet and shiny for quite a bit. I was thinking it may be absorbed by my long sleeve shirt if I put it on to quickly after spreading it on my arm. I basically used 1 gram and about 4 maybe 5 sprays from the bottle I bought. Mixed it using a disposable chopstick I had somewhere in the kitchen, and spread it by pouring on the arm, and using the chopstick like a butter knife. Then, it suddenly occurred to me I needed to stay away from my son for a bit while it dried/absorbed.

I agree, ideally a DMSO solution + rsv in the spray bottle would be interesting, but I also need to know how much is entering the blood stream when you spray. Because I do notice quite of bit of white powder still on my skin after the DMSO is absorbed, it again makes me wonder about absorption estimates using DMSO. I still hope they are good, but there is a lingering thought about it, and I suppose it will continue to be there until we can get some good metrics regarding absorption.

BTW, ilanso is correct, I have a conflict of interest here, so I am trying to limit many of my experiences with rsv, even though I believe all of them to be positive. I Personally think the conversation here (regardless of my participation) really helps us determine where folks want to go with this, and the conversation also helps us move along a path that allows us to consider and help create a better, and cheaper resveratrol product for the average person.

I will try to limit my experiences to the administration of the products, but I can't promise I will completely stop.

:D

A

Edited by Anthony_Loera, 17 December 2007 - 09:28 PM.


#515 missminni

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 10:00 PM

The rsv + DMSO mixture was noticeably wet and shiny for quite a bit. I was thinking it may be absorbed by my long sleeve shirt if I put it on to quickly after spreading it on my arm. I basically used 1 gram and about 4 maybe 5 sprays from the bottle I bought. Mixed it using a disposable chopstick I had somewhere in the kitchen, and spread it by pouring on the arm, and using the chopstick like a butter knife. Then, it suddenly occurred to me I needed to stay away from my son for a bit while it dried/absorbed.


Ah, there's your problem - too much of both.
Too many sprays too much REs. I made the same mistake. What a mess. and I did have that whitish film left over too.
Just try a tiny spritz in the crevice and maybe 200mg of res. That's plenty. I feel it when I do 200mg. If you want, do it
twice and use more, but only that much at one time, because otherwise it's a mess.
If you spray first, sprinkle second, and let the powder get cakeyish, and then sray a little more and rub it in with your
finger. not your hand. It will dry fast...a few minutes and you don't have to worry about touching your son. Just use one finger.
we need to do a demonstration tape. LOL


#516 VP.

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:54 AM

I agree with missminni. Anthony is using too much. One gram on the arm is just a huge mess. If you want to take one gram try lying on the couch and using your belly button as a mixing vessel. Just mix it all up and spread it over your belly. It's great if you have someone to help you. We do need to find a better way of applying DMSO/Res because what I'm doing now is a pain. I wouldn't do it if I didn't see the results I think I'm seeing. I'll report my thoughts after a couple more weeks of experimentation.

#517 luv2increase

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:04 AM

I been taking Country Life Resveratrol Plus for almost two weeks. It contains gradeseed extract, grape skin extract, and pine bark extract as a plus as well. To me, it gives an overall positive feeling of well-being. I also have no aches or pains whatsoever throughout my entire body. It is 200mg that is standardized 50% to 100mg t-res per capsule. I've been dumping one capsule with a capsule of curcumin in a tablespoon of olive oil after breakfast and dinner. I don't even know if mixing it like this helps absorption since it being only a 50% extract though? Would it?

On the note of higher dosages, I think one would do just fine taking a lower dose. Maybe the younger you are, the less one should take. This assuming that low-dose res supplementation does exhibit significant activation of SIRT1 in humans.


Maybe that is the best way to increase resveratrol's effectiveness? Low-dose, long-term administration for best outcome? That is just a thought based on pure speculation with no support to back it up except for my imagination. I could be right though ;)

Edited by luv2increase, 18 December 2007 - 02:06 AM.


#518 health_nutty

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:04 AM

Velopismo, how much are you taking right now? Do keep us informed!

#519 missminni

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 03:03 AM

I agree with missminni. Anthony is using too much. One gram on the arm is just a huge mess. If you want to take one gram try lying on the couch and using your belly button as a mixing vessel. Just mix it all up and spread it over your belly. It's great if you have someone to help you. We do need to find a better way of applying DMSO/Res because what I'm doing now is a pain. I wouldn't do it if I didn't see the results I think I'm seeing. I'll report my thoughts after a couple more weeks of experimentation.

I am laughing so hard from this image
I will say that in the beginning it was really a new mess every day.
But now I've got it down.
please tell us what amount you are using.


#520 Hedgehog

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 05:51 AM

I have not started using Res, but i finally ordered some from a GMP certified lab. I'm very interested in the absorption issues.

I noticed people having been using DMSO. Which is a great carrier but dangerous one as it can take not just Res into your body but many other molecules. If you are using DMSO as a carrier agent make sure your skin is clean and free of chemicals. As for the ethanol I was going to try this one once I obtain my Res.

I noticed that Res has a very low solubility in water, a little higher in DMSO and even higher in ethanol. see wikipedia.

Solubility in water

0.03 g/L

Solubility in DMSO

16 g/L

Solubility in ethanol

50 g/L

There is also a table that states how much res is in each glass of wine. It seems very small compared to how much Res these studies are using? If Res really helps people then either they are drinking a lot of wine or there is something in the wine helping Res enter into the body.

For those of you who are using DMSO do you notice any difference of your skin where you topically apply.


~hedgehog

#521 missminni

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:05 PM

For those of you who are using DMSO do you notice any difference of your skin where you topically apply.


~hedgehog

no

#522 maxwatt

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:03 PM

For those of you who are using DMSO do you notice any difference of your skin where you topically apply.


~hedgehog

no


Me neither.

BTW, Anthony, about children and resveratrol; it might be beneficial. No papers on humans, but young rats maze-finding ability improved when fed resveratrol. Also, one student who used to post here claimed large doses helped him concentrate (he claimed to be ADHD) and improved his SAT scores.

#523 malbecman

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 05:47 PM

You know, I think its funny that a lot of us have gone to all this trouble to find the "best" route of administration for resveratrol when some of the work had already been done for us.

I was looking up silymarin, one of the other SIRT activators and found that bioavailability was a problem there was well. One company's solution? Bind the silymarin to phosphatidylcholine and sell it as proprietary product. Well, guess what? Phosphatidlycholine is the main component of lecithin which many of us here are now using for our resveratrol. Here is a quote from one of the products:

"Silymarin (milk thistle extract) is a potent liver-protecting substance, useful in all types of liver disease... Although silymarin is quite effective clinically, it is not very bioavailable (it is hard for the body to absorb). In contrast, binding one molecule of silymarin with two molecules of phosphatidylcholine in the Phytosome® process creates a highly bioavailable new form of silymarin. The Phytosome® form is far superior to simple silymarin in every respect.”


There are quite a few other products as well that use phosphatidylcholine, aka, lecithin, for their silymarin products too if you look around.....

I really feel like I was re-inventing the wheel here..... ;)



edit:

Apparently they even have a patent for the "phytosome" process. Looks pretty similar to a liposome, (just not a water soluble drug in middle) to me...

http://www.maximummi...m/Phytosome.htm

Supposedly 8-10X more absorption this way......

Edited by malbecman, 18 December 2007 - 05:56 PM.


#524 malbecman

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:15 PM

Ok, you can also find some information in the academic literature on silymarin and PC (phosph. choline) and bioavailability although most of the work was done back in the early 1990s and so only the abstracts are online. Here is one from the rat:

Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 1992 Jan-Mar;17(1):39-44.Links
Comparative bioavailability of Silipide, a new flavanolignan complex, in rats.
Morazzoni P, Magistretti MJ, Giachetti C, Zanolo G.
Inverni della Beffa Research and Development Laboratories, Milan, Italy.

The comparative pharmacokinetics of Silipide (IdB 1016, a silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex) and silybin were investigated by measuring unconjugated and total plasma silybin levels as well as total biliary and urinary silybin excretion in rats following administration of a single oral dose (200 mg/kg as silybin). Mean peak levels of unconjugated and total silybin after IdB 1016 were 8.17 and 74.23 micrograms/ml respectively. Mean AUC (0-6 h) values were 9.78 and 232.15 h.micrograms.ml-1 indicating that about 94% of the plasma silybin is present in a conjugated form. After administration of silybin, plasma levels of both unconjugated and total compound were under the analytical detection limit. Cumulative biliary (0-24 h) and urinary (0-72 h) excretion values after administration of IdB 1016 accounted for 3.73% and 3.26% of the administered dose, respectively. After silybin administration, the biliary and urinary excretion accounted for only 0.001% and 0.032% of the dose respectively. Our results indicate a superior bioavailability of silybin administered orally as IdB 1016. This was due mainly to an impressive increase in gastrointestinal absorption.


and human:

Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 1990 Oct-Dec;15(4):333-8.
Pharmacokinetic studies on IdB 1016, a silybin- phosphatidylcholine complex, in healthy human subjects.
Barzaghi N, Crema F, Gatti G, Pifferi G, Perucca E.
Department of Medical Pharmacology, University of Pavia, Italy.

IdB 1016 is a complex of silybin (the main active component of silymarin) and phosphatidylcholine, which in animal models shows greater oral bioavailability and therefore greater pharmacological activity compared with pure silybin and silymarin. In order to assess its pharmacokinetic profile in man, plasma silybin levels were determined after administration of single oral doses of IdB 1016 and silymarin (equivalent to 360 mg silybin) to 9 healthy volunteers. Although absorption was rapid with both preparations, the bioavailability of IdB 1016 was much greater than that of silymarin, as indicated by higher plasma silybin levels at all sampling times after intake of the complex. Regardless of the preparation used, the terminal half-life was relatively short (generally less than 4 h). In a subsequent study, 9 healthy volunteers received IdB 1016 (120 mg b.i.d., expressed as silybin equivalents) for 8 consecutive days. The plasma silybin level profiles and kinetic parameters on day 1 were similar to those determined on day 8. Most of the silybin present in the systemic circulation was in conjugated form. Less than 3% of the administered dose was accounted for by urinary recovery of free plus conjugated silybin, a significant proportion of the dose probably being excreted in the bile. It is concluded that complexation with phosphatidylcholine in IdB 1016 greatly increases the oral bioavailability of silybin, probably by facilitating its passage across the gastrointestinal mucosa.

PMID: 2088770



All indicate increased bioavailability.

I don't yet have details on the PC-silymarin complex but it does sound like its just a 1:1 or 1:2 ratio. I would imagine something similar would be happening for those of us using resveratrol and lecithin........



Here also is the link to the patent #4764508 that describes the "Phytosome" product from my previous post:

http://www.freepaten...om/4764508.html


I"ll need to cool my fingers for awhile and will read thru the patent later to get more details.....

Edited by malbecman, 18 December 2007 - 06:15 PM.


#525 ilanso

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 06:46 PM

AKA silipide or IdB 1016:

Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 1993 Jul-Sep;18(3):289-97.Links
Comparative pharmacokinetics of silipide and silymarin in rats.
Morazzoni P, Montalbetti A, Malandrino S, Pifferi G.

Inverni della Beffa Research and Development Laboratories, Milan, Italy.

The plasma level profile and the biliary excretion of silybin, the main flavanolignan component of silymarin, were evaluated in rats after single equimolar oral doses (200 mg/kg, expressed as silybin equivalents) of the silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex silipide (laboratory code IdB 1016) and of silymarin. Silybin was assayed by using a specific HPLC method which allowed also the determination of other flavanolignans present in the biological fluids after administration of silymarin (i.e. silydianin, silycristin and isosilybin). After oral silipide, silybin reached peak plasma levels within 2 h, with a Cmax of 9.0 +/- 3.0 micrograms/ml for unconjugated drug and 93.4 +/- 16.7 micrograms/ml for total (free + unconjugated drug). Maximum total biliary concentrations of silybin (2989 +/- 568 micrograms/ml) were observed within 2 h and the biliary recovery after 24 h accounted for about 13% of the administered amount. After administration of silymarin, unconjugated and total plasma silybin levels as well as biliary excretion were several-fold lower than those observed after treatment with silipide. Silybin recovered over a 24 h period after silymarin intake accounted for about 2% of the administered dose. Plasma and bile obtained after administration of silymarin contained also silydianin, silycristin and, to a greater extent, isosilybin. The concentrations of the latter compound in plasma and in bile were higher than those of silybin itself. The relative bioavailability of silipide (calculated in the target organ as the ratio between AUCs of cumulative biliary excretion curves) was 10-fold higher than that of silymarin.

PMID: 8149949


There is still the need for this group to reinvent the wheel: come up with poor man's way of creating the "resvepide" (rsv+lecithin+sonicator, solvent,etc?)

#526 lucid

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 07:17 PM

That was my thought, Lucid or any others, any laxitive effects from the PEG aka Miralax?

Miralax works similiarly to insoluable fiber in that it makes your stool have more water so that it will pass more quickly through you instead of getting thick and building up. While some say miralax increases gas, I haven't noticed it. (though I notice it immediately when I increase my fiber consumption, this is because our bacterial flora uses fiber as food and produces gas.) I imagine that miralax would increase the gas in people that have no fiber in their diet to start with: the softer stool that one would get when going from no fiber to miralax is much more condusive to bacterial growth and hence the gas. (Gas can be sort of good, it is implicated as part of the MOA for fiber improving cholesterol).

As maxwatt said the amount that we use is much less than suggested dosages but it likely has some effect. Miralax also greatly decreases the risk of colon cancer but costs about 10$ a month. There is a study where it completely prevents colon cancer in colon cancer prone mice.

#527 Hedgehog

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 11:18 PM

I guess I got this bioavailability and absorption thing wrong. My bad.

After reading some papers it appears that Res is absorbed very readily when taken orally. So it probably won't make any difference if you use a dangerous carrier like DMSO or just pop the pill. The reason why there is not much in plasma is because the liver brakes it down exceedingly fast which is the cause for low bioavailability and not due to absorption issues. If you want to target a certain part of your body then DMSO would be the best way to go but most likely I would guess it won't help you that much.

There is also some evidence that once the liver metabolizes Res it can add signals that might actually target it to a certain type of cell. So even tho you don't have the same Type of Res you had in pill form the body might actually change it in a certain way that the delivers it to a certain type of cells that need it. however, there are studies that have demonstrated that Quercetin + Res will enhance the pill form of Res in plasma


Nature 425:191-6, 2003
Drug Metabolism Disposition 32:1377-82, 2004
Nature Genetics 37: 349-50, 2005
Xenobiotica 30: 609-17, 2000; 30: 857-66, 2000; 30:1047-54, 2000
Biochemistry Journal 374 (Pt 1):157-63, 2003

Edited by hedgehog_info, 18 December 2007 - 11:21 PM.


#528 VP.

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 03:45 AM

I agree with missminni. Anthony is using too much. One gram on the arm is just a huge mess. If you want to take one gram try lying on the couch and using your belly button as a mixing vessel. Just mix it all up and spread it over your belly. It's great if you have someone to help you. We do need to find a better way of applying DMSO/Res because what I'm doing now is a pain. I wouldn't do it if I didn't see the results I think I'm seeing. I'll report my thoughts after a couple more weeks of experimentation.

I am laughing so hard from this image
I will say that in the beginning it was really a new mess every day.
But now I've got it down.
please tell us what amount you are using.


Don't knock the belly button. It works well with higher doses. It's just a pain to apply and I have to keep my Dachshunds away or I'll be dosing dog spit. When I use the DMSO/Res on the arm I use 0.20g. On my belly about 0.5g. I also take about one gram with Mirilax. I use the arm when I'm pressed for time.

#529 niner

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 04:55 AM

There is still the need for this group to reinvent the wheel: come up with poor man's way of creating the "resvepide" (rsv+lecithin+sonicator, solvent,etc?)

I was thinking the same thing. I looked at the silipide patent; the silybin forms a 1:1 covalent complex with the phosphate head group of the phospholipid. This is pretty different than a liposome. The "phytosome" terminology is just marketing talk; the complex is not like a cell. It's much smaller than a liposome. This is apparently not specific to silybin, as these complexes have been made with various flavonoids and terpenoids. (Ginkgo biloba, grape seed, hawthorn, milk thistle, green tea, and ginseng) That suggests that it may work with resveratrol. My main reservation with the method described in the patent is that it relies upon the use of an aprotic solvent like acetone to create the complex. They refluxed the mixture for an hour then pulled off most of the solvent with vacuum, and finally precipitated the complex in a nonpolar solvent. This introduces multiple sources of contaminants, especially if you purchase your solvents at a fine chemical establishment like the Home Depot.

Maybe a better plan would be to create a more traditional micelle using something like olive oil and PC. Here you'd have a tiny droplet of oil with the resveratrol dissolved in it. It would be coated with PC molecules, with their tails in the oil and heads pointing out into the water. It should just be a matter of getting the proportions right, sonicating, and chugging as usual... Not that I've ever made a micelle, so it's probably harder than I'm imagining, but it seems like this way would have the potential to be cheap and non-toxic.

edit: corrected terminology

Edited by niner, 19 December 2007 - 05:08 AM.


#530 edward

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 05:34 AM

niner, let me know when you create that res micelle... we need pictures, preferably at high magnification ;)

#531 ilanso

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 06:28 AM

Maybe a better plan would be to create a more traditional micelle using something like olive oil and PC.

niner, let me know when you create that res micelle


The correct term (I can speak Italian) is "res-vermicelli" ;)

#532 maxwatt

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 12:52 PM

Maybe a better plan would be to create a more traditional micelle using something like olive oil and PC.

niner, let me know when you create that res micelle


The correct term (I can speak Italian) is "res-vermicelli" ;)


In micelle res

Lecithin dissolves in both water and oil. Instead of dissolving resvertrol in alcohol, then adding lecithin, it could be dissolved in oil and then add sufficient lecithin. If the lecithin is completely dissolved in the oil, one could then add water in a blender, and make a micelle. Crude, but it might work well enough to enhance delivery. The question is what kind of oil to use. Olive is obvious, but grape seed oil has little taste and seems somehow appropriate. :)

#533 scorpe

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 01:34 PM

For those of you who are using DMSO do you notice any difference of your skin where you topically apply.


~hedgehog

no


Me neither.

BTW, Anthony, about children and resveratrol; it might be beneficial. No papers on humans, but young rats maze-finding ability improved when fed resveratrol. Also, one student who used to post here claimed large doses helped him concentrate (he claimed to be ADHD) and improved his SAT scores.


I am still doubting to give resv. to my 16y old son as I do't know what the effect (negative/positive?) could be as he is still growing. If I remember well I read somewhere that resv. could reduce growth in young adults. Until I know for sure what the effect is I do't give him. I give him a multi, fish oil, vit d3, pomegrate, acai and a few other things as he is training 6 times per week 2 hours a day.

#534 maxwatt

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 02:07 PM

For those of you who are using DMSO do you notice any difference of your skin where you topically apply.


~hedgehog

no


Me neither.

BTW, Anthony, about children and resveratrol; it might be beneficial. No papers on humans, but young rats maze-finding ability improved when fed resveratrol. Also, one student who used to post here claimed large doses helped him concentrate (he claimed to be ADHD) and improved his SAT scores.


I am still doubting to give resv. to my 16y old son as I do't know what the effect (negative/positive?) could be as he is still growing. If I remember well I read somewhere that resv. could reduce growth in young adults. Until I know for sure what the effect is I do't give him. I give him a multi, fish oil, vit d3, pomegrate, acai and a few other things as he is training 6 times per week 2 hours a day.


You are of course quite right. We don't know the risks, or the benefits.

#535 malbecman

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 07:28 PM

I'm thinking the main reason they used acetone and then hexane was so they could pull it off easily (evaporate it) and form a dry powder for their capsules. I see no reason why the PC should not also complex with resveratrol in a solvent water and act like it normally does as an emulsifier. I think the main message to take is that you need to mix the 2 ingredients in equimolar amounts or up to a 2:1 equimolar ratio. Since the various phosphatidyl choline derivatives have MWs (760-800 Da) that are approx. 3X the MW of resveratrol (228 Da), that means on a weight basis you would want 3X-6X times as much lecithin as resveratrol. Maybe we all need to double check how much lecithin we are using a little more carefully instead of just saying, "I used ~1/4 tsp........"



My main reservation with the method described in the patent is that it relies upon the use of an aprotic solvent like acetone to create the complex. They refluxed the mixture for an hour then pulled off most of the solvent with vacuum, and finally precipitated the complex in a nonpolar solvent. This introduces multiple sources of contaminants, especially if you purchase your solvents at a fine chemical establishment like the Home Depot.

Maybe a better plan would be to create a more traditional micelle using something like olive oil and PC. Here you'd have a tiny droplet of oil with the resveratrol dissolved in it. It would be coated with PC molecules, with their tails in the oil and heads pointing out into the water. It should just be a matter of getting the proportions right, sonicating, and chugging as usual... Not that I've ever made a micelle, so it's probably harder than I'm imagining, but it seems like this way would have the potential to be cheap and non-toxic.

edit: corrected terminology



#536 maxwatt

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 07:49 PM

Lecithin dissolves in both water and oil. Instead of dissolving resvertrol in alcohol, then adding lecithin, it could be dissolved in oil and then add sufficient lecithin. If the lecithin is completely dissolved in the oil, one could then add water in a blender, and make a micelle. Crude, but it might work well enough to enhance delivery. The question is what kind of oil to use. Olive is obvious, but grape seed oil has little taste and seems somehow appropriate. :)


Bump. I tried it this morning. Photos to follow later. I used a blender rather than a sonicator. I doubt a low-power sonicator meant to clean jewelry will break up the oil droplets sufficiently. I also mixed most of the lecithin in water before adding it to the oil, then followed with a little more lecithin. I hate undissolved lumps of lecithin floating in my drink.

I used two grams of resveratrol in 30 ml of grape seed oil, one gram of lecithin and 100 ml of water. The resulting mixture seemed to be partly miscible, and resveratrol dispersed into both the oil and lecithin-ated water portions. There were many small oil droplets present in the liquid, which tended to settle, but no particles settled to the bottom of the glass: just droplets of denser liquid. I stirred it and drank. (The placebo effect was very potent. ;) I thought of the old Moroccan saying: "A puff of kief in the morning makes a man as strong as a hundred camels in the courtyard." )

This may be more potent than the lecithin and water mix I've been using to take a similar amount, though this is only subjective at this point. My toe is not complaining as much as it usually does when I walk the dog, but the toe also improved over the past six months or so, since I increased my resveratrol dose to more than 500 mg. I noted a similar impression of increased potency several times when I took 500 mg of luteolin with my morning resveratrol.

#537 missminni

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:12 AM

Anecdotal observation:
My friend, 38 year old professional dancer/choreographer who has been suffering
with physical injuries and pain common to the profession.
Her hips were a source of great stiffness and pain - making it very difficult and
painful to high kick and/or raise her legs very high.
She rubbed a gram of resveratrol with DMSO/water (70/30) on her hips
and immediately thereafter was able to raise and hold her leg extensions way above
her head like when she was 18, with no pain at all. She called me, ecstatic about the results.
Placebo? possible. but then again, possibly not. Of course, we know that DMSO by itself
is known to give tremendous relief for joint pain. But it is usually temporary.
Maybe the Res will make the relief more lasting. I know my toes are 95% improved
over a 6 week period and most of that improvement happened right away, and lasted.
My knees too.
BTW, she is taking it orally too.
okay
My dad is continuing to have success with pain relief however he stubbornly takes that
one freaking vicadan in the morning regardless. He says he's not
taking any chances. ?? and then takes the res at 11 when the vicadan wears off.
and he is fine with the res. the rest of the day. walks better and feels stronger.
He promised tomorrow he would try the res first thing in the morning.



#538 Hedgehog

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 03:48 AM

Has anybody tried to dissolve RES in a saline solution and used an eye dropper?

#539 niner

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:15 AM

Has anybody tried to dissolve RES in a saline solution and used an eye dropper?

Saline is mostly water, and RES is not particularly soluble in water.

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#540 Hedgehog

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 04:22 AM

Has anybody tried to dissolve RES in a saline solution and used an eye dropper?

Saline is mostly water, and RES is not particularly soluble in water.

How about a Saline solution with some EtOH. For example dissolve Res in EtOH and then dump it into the saline solution. However, I'm not sure if it is a good idea to put EtoH on your eye let alone Res. However that might be the best way to keep your eye nerves from damage.




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